[Mage]

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/12/07/...rayer.html

I know there is a thread about the current Pope, but I think this deserves it's own thread where we could discuss the proposed change more then the personality of the Pope.

Pope wants to change the line:

"And do not LEAD us into temptation"

into

"And do not LET US FALL into temptation"

The argument is that God doesn't do everything evil so it's we who choose to fall to temptation or not. The word "lead" comes from a bad translation, he says.

I think it's a sound argument and I have myself pondered about this line as well in past, finding it strange that God leads into temptation.

On other hand I find it strange that this major thing is noticed so late in church history when billions of people have prayed this way for centuries. I distrust anything this liberal Muslim loving Pope proposes. And I recall God allowing Satan to tempt Job quite a lot. I think implying that it's Satan who did it is an excuse. God clearly has created Satan to act as his proxy with temptations, it all happens with God's approval. Saying God doesn't tempt people is like saying that the wealthy person who pays for crime to be done is innocent and all the crimes are solely faults of low life thugs who executed them. I am not saying that tempting people is necessarily a crime, if this life is a test then clearly God can be justified in doing this. But in this case praying God to not test us is strange, if that is the purpose of life. Anyway it's reasonable to think that if God is really almighty then all temptations come from him as well.

What are your thoughts? Any language experts here to weigh in on the translation argument?

[Disco_Volante]

One thing that pissed me off about going to Church is how many things they constantly change. I didn't go for a 2 1/2 year period then went to mass again and several of the chants / phrases / actions were different. It's ridiculous and stupid. "Oh we were doing it wrong so the magisterium decrees this is the new proper way to worship God". It happens several times you start to tune it out.

[TravelerKai]

(12-08-2017 01:29 PM)Mage Wrote:  

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/12/07/...rayer.html

I know there is a thread about the current Pope, but I think this deserves it's own thread where we could discuss the proposed change more then the personality of the Pope.

Pope wants to change the line:

"And do not LEAD us into temptation"

into

"And do not LET US FALL into temptation"

The argument is that God doesn't do everything evil so it's we who choose to fall to temptation or not. The word "lead" comes from a bad translation, he says.

I think it's a sound argument and I have myself pondered about this line as well in past, finding it strange that God leads into temptation.

On other hand I find it strange that this major thing is noticed so late in church history when billions of people have prayed this way for centuries. I distrust anything this liberal Muslim loving Pope proposes. And I recall God allowing Satan to tempt Job quite a lot. I think implying that it's Satan who did it is an excuse. God clearly has created Satan to act as his proxy with temptations, it all happens with God's approval. Saying God doesn't tempt people is like saying that the wealthy person who pays for crime to be done is innocent and all the crimes are solely faults of low life thugs who executed them.

What are your thoughts. Any language experts here to weigh in on the translation argument?

I cannot speak Hebrew, Greek, or Latin, so I cannot weigh in as an expert, but from the article the reasoning is pretty sound. It makes sense to me, but it is strange that such a terrible pope, of all things in 2017, is bothering to ask for a change now.

I also feel bad that no evangelical/non-denominational/Baptist/Pentecostal people never bothered to adjust that translation before. It's not like there are not plenty of pastors fluent in those languages.

I could be wrong though, because there are alot of newer translation Bibles and, my favorite the Amplified Bible out there, that might have already adjusted that language.

[Samseau]

It's a sound change, but it seems like he's focusing on minor details while the Titantic sinks.

[debeguiled]

Tough one to have an opinion on if you don't know ancient Greek.

This is the New International Version of the Bible's translation of the prayer:


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...w+6%3A9-13

Quote:

Matthew 6:9-13 New International Version (NIV)

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.[b]’

It comes with an interesting note on the word temptation:

Quote:

a. Matthew 6:13 The Greek for temptation can also mean testing.

Personally, I defer to tradition, figuring the people who wrote it and translated it knew what they were doing.

If you read it as "testing" instead of "temptation," it makes more sense, as it is a kind of a plea not to make life too hard, as in, test me, but not too much.

Anyway, agree with Samseau: Get a big fan to blow the smoke of Satan out of the Roman Curia, and then we can quibble over subtleties.

[Gimlet]

(12-08-2017 02:16 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

Tough one to have an opinion on if you don't know ancient Greek.

This is the New International Version of the Bible's translation of the prayer:


https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...w+6%3A9-13

Quote:

Matthew 6:9-13 New International Version (NIV)

9 “This, then, is how you should pray:

“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,[a]
but deliver us from the evil one.[b]’

It comes with an interesting note on the word temptation:

Quote:

a. Matthew 6:13 The Greek for temptation can also mean testing.

Personally, I defer to tradition, figuring the people who wrote it and translated it knew what they were doing.

If you read it as "testing" instead of "temptation," it makes more sense, as it is a kind of a plea not to make life too hard, as in, test me, but not too much.

Anyway, agree with Samseau: Get a big fan to blow the smoke of Satan out of the Roman Curia, and then we can quibble over subtleties.

Exactly, the word in Greek means to try, make a test of or tempt.

http://biblehub.com/greek/3985.htm
http://biblehub.com/thayers/3985.htm

This pope is likely making this change for nefarious reasons.

[nomadbrah]

The pope desperately tries to avoid being indicted for heresy by a group of American Catholics.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/09/25/world/...index.html

"...The letter does not accuse the Pope himself of being a heretic, but of supporting "heretical positions" on "marriage, the moral life and the Eucharist..."

I'd say it is quite possible the Catholic church fractures into an Anglo-Saxon and a Latin church.

[lazy]

(12-08-2017 01:29 PM)Mage Wrote:  

On other hand I find it strange that this major thing is noticed so late in church history when billions of people have prayed this way for centuries.

Like I said in the other thread, it has always been "do not let us fall into temptation" in both Spanish and Portuguese, as well as French. If you count the Catholic populations of France, Spain, Latin America and Brazil, it's likely this translation is actually the most common in the world. I don't know why it's different in Italian and English.

I don't know what Pope Francis' true intentions are, but this particular change looks alright. If Pope Benedict had proposed this, no one would have minded. I totally get the slippery slope danger in this change, though...

[Captainstabbin]

Being tempted isn't the same as sinning. You can't "fall into" temptation, you fall into sin after failing to resist temptation.

The Bible cites many examples of people (even Christ) being lead by God to temptation:

Quote:

Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

The prayer is asking God to not allow us to be tempted because we know that, unlike Christ, we'll fall into sin. It's asking God to not even lead us to be tempted as a way to prevent our eventual sin.

This is another way for Antipope Francis to say that people aren't really guilty of their sins - they didn't succumb to temptations, God allowed them to "fall into" sin...it's His fault, really. Forgiveness isn't necessary - just lead your life and be happy.

[Mage]

(12-08-2017 02:34 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

I'd say it is quite possible the Catholic church fractures into an Anglo-Saxon and a Latin church.

I don't think it will fracture. The Catholic Church has survived many bad popes. Some small group of priests may fracture off but a 50/50 fracture between latin and anglo-saxon church is not likely. The Catholics know how to endure dark times and they value unity a lot.

What is more likely is that the Catholic Church will degrade more and more as time goes, becoming more and more tolerant and inconsequential. At least that's the trend what's been going on for the last century since 2nd Vatican council and Cultural Marxist ideas creeping in everywhere including church.

[Samseau]

(12-08-2017 03:17 PM)Captainstabbin Wrote:  

Being tempted isn't the same as sinning. You can't "fall into" temptation, you fall into sin after failing to resist temptation.

The Bible cites many examples of people (even Christ) being lead by God to temptation:

Quote:

Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

The prayer is asking God to not allow us to be tempted because we know that, unlike Christ, we'll fall into sin. It's asking God to not even lead us to be tempted as a way to prevent our eventual sin.

This is another way for Antipope Francis to say that people aren't really guilty of their sins - they didn't succumb to temptations, God allowed them to "fall into" sin...it's His fault, really. Forgiveness isn't necessary - just lead your life and be happy.

Good rebuttal. God gave us free will so we could understand and overcome sin to reach salvation. So in one sense He does lead us into temptation since the entire point of our lives is learning how to deal with sin, overcome it, and love our Neighbors as ourselves.

The book of Job also touches upon this subject; God allows Satan to destroy Job in order to test his faith. Job was following God the entire time yet God lead him into despair, and Job was tempted by his friends to either renounce God or himself as a sinner. Job resisted both temptations, and was rewarded mightily by God in the end.

So the Lord's prayer can be understood as, "Please do not test us, but instead give us your mercy."

[The Beast1]

(12-08-2017 01:42 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

I also feel bad that no evangelical/non-denominational/Baptist/Pentecostal people never bothered to adjust that translation before. It's not like there are not plenty of pastors fluent in those languages.

Pedantic, but all pastors going through seminaries regardless of denomination learn biblical Hebrew and Koine Greek.

Why they use the older translation is beyond me. Not sure about other denominations, but the next version of the LBW should be coming out in a few years. I'm curious now if they adjusted the translation.

[LeeEnfield303]

I hate the phrase "fall into." That's a popular victimology term...as in, "I couldn't help it, I just fell and gravity did the rest...wasn't my fault" So, I call ....whatever the Latin is for that.

This is like all those stories saying addicts are 'victims' of the 'meth/heroin/opioid "epidemic." As if a malevolent cloud of meth descended on their innocent heads, minding their own business, and overwhelmed them like a disease, a fire, a hurricane, a flood...they had NOTHING to do with it. Uh huh.

We willfully choose 99.xxx% of our sins. I sin everyday, I don't like it, but I own it...there's no "falling." Did Eve "fall" into the fruit? Did David "fall into" Bathsheba (wait, dont answer that) , or "fall into" Uriah's death? Did Judas "fall into" those 30 pieces of silver?

What crap. What's the Latin for "own your shit?"

[budoslavic]

Not surprised by "change this, change that" whenever I hear or read about Pope Francis and/or Catholic Diocese.

As someone who attends a Russian/Eastern Orthodox Church with my family members whenever I visit home, this is The Lord's Prayer (Otce Nas in Russian) we have always follow according to my late ancestors who were taught the Old Church Slavonic's traditions in Eastern Slovakia.

English:
Our Father, Who art in the heavens,
hallowed be Thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.

Russian:
Ot-che nash,
Ee-zhe ye see na nye-bye-sekh!
da svya-tee-tsya ee-mya Tvo-ye, da pri-ee-dyet Tsar-stvi-ye Tvo-ye:
da boo-dyet vol-ya Tvo-ya, ya-ko na nye-bye-see ee na zem-lee.
Khleb nash na-soosch-nui dazhd nam dnyes:
ee o-sta-vee nam dol-gee na-shya, ya-ko-zhe ee mui o-sta-vlya-yem dol-zhnee-kom na-shuim:
ee nye vvye-dee nas vo ees-koo-shye-ni-ye,
no eez-ba-vee nas ot loo-ka-va-go.

(I don't speak Russian, but as a deaf man, I'm trying to learn how to read and write Russian so I can communicate with Slavic women whenever I visit Ukraine, Russia, etc. )

[Paracelsus]

As I said in the other Francis thread: at best this is adjusting the doorknobs on the Titanic. At worst it is a slippery slope: if he can get this past Catholics, what the fuck else can he mess with?

The question is not whether the change should be made, the question is why, and in particular, why now? Are the gays whispering that they'll all leave the church if they don't get to impose stupid changes on the Lord's Prayer?

[Rocha]

I think this prayer might just have been victim of a badly translation from Latin into English language, because in the Portuguese language, it is "And do not LET US FALL into temptation":

"Pai nosso, que estás nos céus!
Santificado seja o teu nome.
Venha o teu Reino;
seja feita a tua vontade,
assim na terra como no céu.
Dá-nos hoje o nosso
pão de cada dia.
Perdoa as nossas dívidas,
assim como perdoamos
aos nossos devedores.
E não nos deixes cair
em tentação,
mas livra-nos do mal,
porque teu é o Reino, o poder e a glória para sempre.
Amém."

[Mage]

I looked up all languages whose writing I can understand:

Languages using "do no lead us": English, German, Russian, Latvian, Polish and Latin!

Languages using "do not let us fall": Spanish, Portuguese

The French according to my translation say "do not submit us to temptation" ("ne nous soumets pas à la tentation")

So apparently it's not a case of bad translation from Latin at all!

Since Latin is the official language of Church, the proposed changes are to be made in Latin first, then in other languages.

it seems to me Francis wan't to change the prayer in Latin and al other languages closer to that how they pray in his native South America.

I don't know how it is written in Greek in which the original gospels where Lord's prayer is found (Matthew and Luke), because I can't read that. But obviously in most languages it is translated as "do not lead us".

[FilipSRB]

Add Serbian to the languages where the line also goes "do not lead us into temptation".

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

Both versions are fine, but these constant changes and nitpicking over details and stances on this and that are the hallmark of cucked evangelical churches, not the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ". It's been fine for over a thousand years, so why would it suddenly become an issue now?

[budoslavic]

(12-09-2017 06:58 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

Both versions are fine, but these constant changes and nitpicking over details and stances on this and that are the hallmark of cucked evangelical churches, not the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ". It's been fine for over a thousand years, so why would it suddenly become an issue now?

Exactly.

Also, let's not forget that a lot of cucked churches have taken the degeneracy route due to PC culture bullshit. They defied church's traditions by giving a big middle finger to the
patriarchy.

Examples:
- feminists/female priests/deacons; or the so-called "ordination of women priests"






- gay/lesbian priests/deacons


- same sex marriage

[Mercenary]

(12-08-2017 02:16 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

Tough one to have an opinion on if you don't know ancient Greek.

(12-09-2017 04:21 AM)Mage Wrote:  

I don't know how it is written in Greek in which the original gospels where Lord's prayer is found (Matthew and Luke), because I can't read that. But obviously in most languages it is translated as "do not lead us".

Ask Youngblade to translate and help you guys.


He's supposed to be able to read Greek and Latin and is a self proclaimed super expert in these theological matters, as he's been battling it out with others in this thread discussing the interpretation of early christian scripture for over a week now:

thread-65879-page-2.html

[Aurini]

The change itself seems irrelevant, but the act of making the change reeks of malevolence. If nothing else, it serves the force of calumny; starting arguments amongst the faithful over what amounts to a hill of beans, distracting from those things which we should be focusing on.

As I have said many times about SJWs, the worst thing about their arguments is that they're so wrong that you're forced to waste hours explaining how they're wrong, if you bother addressing them at all. Examining all the different ways students get a math problem incorrect is the opposite of education! And this latest scandal the Bergoglio has manufactured is but another example of his mendacity.

[Raylan Givens]

(12-09-2017 11:54 AM)Aurini Wrote:  

The change itself seems irrelevant, but the act of making the change reeks of malevolence. If nothing else, it serves the force of calumny; starting arguments amongst the faithful over what amounts to a hill of beans, distracting from those things which we should be focusing on.

Exactly. There is really no need for this. Also, the Our Father is the most recognizable and well known prayer in Christianity (at least in the West) and changing it further breaks unity.

[Mercenary]

The pope is only head of the catholic church, NOT of all christians.

Protestants and other various other christian denominations have not recognised his authority on anything for many centuries.
In fact, even large numbers of catholics have refused to follow the pope since the decisions of the 2nd vatican council from 1962 to 1965 and set up their own old style traditional churches.


Bottom line:
Unless you are a strict roman catholic, you don't have to follow the pope's orders on anything.

[Thersites]

Its seems to me that Pope is causing drama and subtle divide with other Christian Denominations with this change in the Lord's Prayer for Catholics. As Orthodox, the Lord's Prayer and Hail Mary's are universal prayers that is share with all Christians. Its just another attempt to fratcure Christian unity.