[atlant]

This Catalonia affair is the first time I'm finding myself vehemently disagreeing with large parts of alternative and conservative media, a majority of which seem to support the separatists, seemingly just to stick it to the EU and the corrupt elite under the veil of "self determination".

Meanwhile it should be obvious to anyone with a passing knowledge of the country that there are large overlaps between Antifa anarchist types, antinationalists, assorted lefties, Arab-funded Islam collaborators and other trash and the independence movement.

[Gambler]

(10-02-2017 01:24 PM)redpillage Wrote:  

(10-02-2017 10:07 AM)BelyyTigr Wrote:  

But the Catalans have been treated very shittily in my view.

With all due respect but your opinion is worth very little as seems to be based on emotional sentiment and not on the facts on the ground. Catalonia is by a wide margin inhabited by droves of Marxist feminist assholes who are itching at the opportunity to detach from Spain and turn the region into a major port of entry for Islamic immigration. They are doing this right now already and once out of the control of Madrid they would most likely compete neck on neck with Sweden as the most cucked, feminist, and Islam friendly region of Europe. The implications for Spain would be extremely grave and if nothing else it would throw the Iberian Peninsula into an economic tailspin.

By the way the Catalans really didn't think this through, as their desire to immediately join the European Union afterward has a snowballs chance of succeeding as Spain, Italy, and perhaps France are almost guaranteed to vote against them (the vote needs to be unanimous if I am not mistaken). So what then? Become the Iberian Switzerland? I don't think so as their political leanings are positioned on the extreme left, to put it mildly. Antifa has a strong following there and without doubt would use an independent Cataluña as a European power base.

Pointing the fingers at Spain for roughing up a few political extremists shows that you have very little understanding of the implications of independence movements or outright revolutions. They usually are followed by a huge mess of which the French revolution was one of the most misunderstood examples (history books today are extremely left leaning and thus only emphasize the failings and crimes of the monarchs at the time).

Rajoy was given two bad choices and he picked the one that has a slim chance of keeping control of what effectively is Spanish sovereign territory. I would have done the same, except that I would have called in the military and ensure that nobody cast a single vote.

I am sick and tired of seeing sovereign nations be destroyed by globalist assholes. That although I am familiar with Catalonia's long standing claims and political autonomy over the past few decades. My point is that you should not be too quick to judge Madrid's actions as Catalonia's independence plays straight into the hands of the no border one world globalists.

That's a good point. I haven't thought of threat that independent Catalonia would pose to rest of Europe with their extreme-left politics.

[911]

It's not just the Catalans' flaming leftist mindset, it's also the fact that a balkanized EU with lots of glorified region-states like Catalonia or say, Montenegro will have a diluted voice in policymaking vs large nation-states with real armies, independent foreign policies and more stringent national borders and standards. Power would naturally shift to Brussels and the banksters in Basel, the City or Frankfurt. Why do you think Yugoslavia and other parts of EE were broken down...

[911]

Eye-opening analysis of the Catalonia separatist movement and the globalist angle from Irish investigator O'Colmain:

http://www.gearoidocolmain.org/israel-will-bank/

The Jerusalem Post reported on the 24th of November, 2014 that ‘Israel and Germany may be the key to initially financing a Catalan state independent of Spain’. Barcelona’s High Court Judge Santiago Vidal told the Israeli newspaper:“ Another state (Israel) will serve as our temporary bank”. For those requiring further exegesis, Jewish money, that is to say international High Finance will ensure the survival of ‘independent’ Catalan.

No doubt, there are plenty hoodutionairy Catalans on the streets of Barcelona donning Palestinian scarves and chanting leftist songs from the Spanish Civil War. Former Greek Finance Minister Vanis Varoufakis has even turned up to assure everyone that the whole thing is ‘left-wing’ and ‘progressive’. He did the same during the Nuit Debout movement in Paris, before dashing off Che Guevara-like to meet… ahem… Emmanuel Macron!

What middle-class Palestinophile leftists have trouble understanding is that Zionism is only partially a project of occupying the Middle East. Zionism is in fact much more; it is a project of global domination. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has made their intentions crystal clear: “Israel must become a world power”.

Israel must become, as Sheihk Imran Hosein has put it, “the new ruling state in the world”. Open borders; mass immigration; the destruction of the nation-state, destruction of the family; in short, globalisation is the process whereby all the world’s states collapse into the institutions of the world-state presided over by the sacerdotal ‘chosen ones’. It’s not so difficult to achieve when you can boast, as Netanyahu has, that “ We have America”.

...

The Jews expel Spain!

Catholic Spain was never a happy place for Jews – except perhaps when they were opening the gates to the Islamic conquests of Andalusia in the 8th century AD!

During the Spanish Inquisition, Jewish fake converts(conversos or Maranos) to Christianity were corrupting the Catholic Church from within, threatening to bring down all of Christendom. In his book A History of the Maranos Jewish scholar Cecil Roth argues that the Catholic Church was justified in its suspicions of the conversos . The Spanish Inquisition, far from being a ‘reign of terror’, was in fact a genuine attempt by the Catholic Church to stamp out corruption and heresy.

In a similar way to the so-called ‘red terror’ in the Soviet Union, the Catholic Church and Spanish Kingdom had been infiltrated by inveterate enemies, operating at the highest levels of Church and State. Like the Soviet Government, the Catholic Church sought to limit executions of its enemies, not maximise them.

The Jews were eventually expelled from Spain in 1492 under the Alhambra Decree; first to Portugal and then to Holland. Powerful Jews such as international diplomat Joseph Nassi, the father of Zionism ( or perhaps Nass-ism!), were instrumental in provoking the Dutch Revolt of 1568 to 1648 which brought down the Spanish Empire.

When Marano (crypto) Jews in the Netherlands contributed to the development of modern banking with promissory notes promoting usury on a grand scale, the Spanish Empire’s gold and silver-based economy declined rapidly.

In his 1911 book Die Juden und das Wirtschaftsleben, translated as The Jews and Modern Capitalism, the German sociologist showed how Jews were the brains behind the modern capitalist mode of production.

Capitalism killed the Spanish Empire; it is now killing the Spanish people.

Post-Catholic, neoliberal Spain is a moribund entity. The Spanish government is beginning to look pathetic, blaming the Kremlin’s media outlets for its woes. To be sure, Wikileaks Julian Assange has been making extremely incendiary and irresponsible statements about civil war in Spain should the independence agenda fail and Russian media are giving him a platform.

Russian media, so truthful in many regards, has simply ignored the criminality pushing for Catalonian independence. Though, to their credit, their Spanish language reports have mentioned Mr. Soros and his colour revolutionaries.

Most people on the left have been, ONCE AGAIN, dupes of Zionist psychological warfare. Israeli observers (organisers) of the Catalan elections have said they are “shocked” by the brutality of the Spanish police. Israelis are, of course, extremely pacifist!

Jordi Pujol and los cabalistas!

Billionaire gangster politician Jordi Pujol is the father of the Catalan independence movement. He has been implicated in massive financial scandals with off-shore accounts and a litany of public service corruption. Pujol is a close collaborator of Catalonia’s powerful Jewish community. He apparently sent four of his children to an Israeli Kibbutz. He says he is Catholic, but only God knows!

In 1985 he founded the Assembly of European Regions (AER) with French historian and politician Edgar Faure, which advocated the breaking up of Europe’s nations into regions under the control of a federal European state. The policy of divide and conquer has already been carried out with ruthless determination in the Middle East, where Israel’s power and territory has continued to expand. Israeli agencies encourage mass immigration into Europe but call immigrants in Israel ‘infiltrators’.

In recent years Catalonia has become somewhat of an Eldorado for wealthy Jews, with synagogues and ancient Jewish quarters restored. It is certainly a positive thing to see Jewish culture being celebrated and respected, but the fanatical Zionism of Catalonia’s leaders is a matter of concern.

If Catalonia succeeds in breaking from Spain, more micro-states will emerge and they are all likely to be characterised by a zealous devotion to the Jewish State. One only has to read the separatist literature in France’s Brittany, where Israel is constantly invoked as a model society.

As the phony war on terrorism intensifies, with mass migration into Europe and Israeli operatives ‘securing’ our public spaces, we are witnessing the Gaza-fication of the world. Micro-states will become like prisons for European citizens under the pretext of ‘security’. The mobility of Europeans will continue to be restricted while armies of Jihadists cross into Europe playing the Jewish victim card.

An Assembly of European Regions would bring us one step further towards a European federal state dominated by Jewish money and its Middle Eastern empire. The Jews already have their own European parliament.

...

When we speak, however, of a souring of Spanish/Israeli relations, we do not mean that Spain refuses to submit to Jewish supremacy. On the contrary, since 2012, a Jew who can trace his ancestry to Medieval Spain may automatically become a Spanish citizen.

One should not be under the impression that the criticism of the reactionary, independence movement in Catalonia implies that the Spanish government is somehow ‘resisting imperialism’. The Rajoy regime is rotten to the core. In fact, many analysts suspect they may even be secretly collaborating with the Catalan separatists.

If Spain is to survive this century it will need to call for a new non-violent, political and ideological Inquisition and move towards a non-usurious economic Catholicism (in the Greek sense of that term) but at this late hour, we are all on Noah’s Arc heading for Eurotopia, drifting in an unholy sea of conversos.

http://www.gearoidocolmain.org/israel-will-bank/

--------------------------------------------

Colmain's article confirms a lot of my gut feeling about (1) the Spanish government, with its clearly counter-productive over-the-top violent crackdown, is encouraging the separatists, and (2) Catalan separatism is part and parcel of the globalist agenda.

[Svara]

(09-21-2017 09:38 AM)mensch Wrote:  

So this happened https://www.theguardian.com/politics/201...y-european

and it got me thinking, that perhaps there is a point there: perhaps some forms of the nation state are dead and that the European blob is so advanced in its ideological fight, and has sustained itself through such a crisis that is might be a tenable solution for Europe. Tenable as in, one that 'works'.

Now here's a hot take: good riddance. The mono-ethnic national state is one that invariably will cause injustice within and tension without if your 'ethnicity' is a random grouping of a dozen million people who look largely the same as the next group over and just happen to speak 'the best language' and bake the 'best cake' and have the 'best national traditions'. So perhaps it's fitting that it evolves into something else. Something closer to the American model. We should work within this something else to steer it into the right direction, not blow it up.

Thoughts?

I totally agree. All these nationalist losers are clinging to the form of the nation-state, which is most cases in Europe is onl a few hundreds ears old (the concept appeared after the treaty of Westphalia in 1648 - before that there was a myriad of counties duchies, principalities, kingdoms, etc and their borders, currencies laws were much more flexible they are now).

The nation-state experienced its peak during the 20th century. Since that's all these nationalist peasants know, they are clinging to it like a drowning person to a piece of wood. This is why we have this divide of elites and educated people supporting the EU, while peasants and drunks in pubs are against it (simple people need bogeymen, and these days it's the EU).

Already after WWI, educated people realize the need for an European economic union - at the very least - that would evolve into a political union. Everyone agreed on this, the only debate was which form it would take: Socialist, Communist, Social-Democrat, Nazi, etc.

The Nazis first had a shot at it, then the Social-Democrats finally won. And now it's turning progressively more Socialist.

It's true there are still strong ethnic and cultural differences in Europe, so what would make much more sense than the nation-states would be to divide adminstratively Europe into ethnic and cultural regions which would then all follow EU rules and regulations for the important things - then they could choose to follow their local idiosyncracies if they wish, for the less important decisions. Just the way the Swiss federal democracy functions.

Besides, no European nation-state is a match for China, Russia an th US. The European Union is simply a necessity, or the individual nation states would just be mere vassals of either China, Russia or the US (according to their respective situations and what their major export markets are).

Here is what I mean: A strong federal EU based on strong, autonomous regions - It would make everybody happy: the peasants and middle classes would get their emotional, identitarian feelings to cling to, while the elites and business people would have a strong, stable framework to work within. Everyone wins.

If the EU wants to be stronger it should definitely support all the local independence movements, in exchange for their ulterior loyalty (rather than relying on the flimsy nation-states). It should officially recognize any independence referendum, in exchange for a fast-lane recognition and acceptance into the EU, as a Region. Again, everyone wins, both EU and Regions.

[Leonard D Neubache]

^

[Quintus Curtius]

@Svara:

I get the sense that you're making some assumptions in your post that rest on uncertain foundations.

If I'm understanding you, you argue that every ethnicity in Europe should have (or wants to have) its own state.

Then you go on to advocate for a supra-national authority (the EU bureaucracy) to keep this entire patchwork of nationalities and ethnicities in happy economic and political order.

These assumptions are flawed, I think.

In the first place, not every ethnicity (in Europe and everywhere else) wants its own state. And even if it might want a state, it may not be practical to form one. States are administrative structures that require a lot to be viable: airspace, currency reserves, customs, a tax base, and a lot of other things. You don't just declare yourself a state, and wave a magic wand, and it just comes into existence.

I also think you're underestimating the resiliency and durability of the modern nation-state. It's not as fragile as people think, and it has proven to be a reliable way of imposing economic and political order.

That map you posted is is many places misleading. Those "borders" between ethnicities is not as defined or as rigid as that map suggests.

The EU has some use for some things, but I don't see any kind of meaningful political EU union that will ever last. The European countries are just too different, with too many different competing interests. You're not going to make Greece be like Sweden. It's not going to happen.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

(10-09-2017 09:24 PM)Svara Wrote:  

People realize the need for an European economic union

Bizzaro currency that turns most of the EU into dumping ground for German products !=! European economic union.

Economic unions can work well only if they are not envisioned as parasitism right from their beginnings. Burn down the EU first, then we can talk about unions and regions.

[Leonard D Neubache]

^My personal fave is how one senior state leader can unilaterally ignore all union law and open the border to a million hostile, illiterate 3rd worlders, including many avowed islamic terrorists, before then demanding that member states maintain free border travel and also take "their fair share" of the invaders they never agreed to allow into the EU in the first place.

Best union ever.

[Samseau]

Comparing the EU to the USA Fed is a joke, the USA has a system of checks and balances, elections and rules to keep the Federal Government working for the people.

The EU is a dictatorship with a parliament. If the EU wants to actually represent its regions then it needs an actual system of representation, right now the EU is attempting to act like Caesar, Napoleon, Hitler, etc, with zero army to back it up.

[budoslavic]