So this happened https://www.theguardian.com/politics/201...y-european

and it got me thinking, that perhaps there is a point there: perhaps some forms of the nation state are dead and that the European blob is so advanced in its ideological fight, and has sustained itself through such a crisis that is might be a tenable solution for Europe. Tenable as in, one that 'works'.

Now here's a hot take: good riddance. The mono-ethnic national state is one that invariably will cause injustice within and tension without if your 'ethnicity' is a random grouping of a dozen million people who look largely the same as the next group over and just happen to speak 'the best language' and bake the 'best cake' and have the 'best national traditions'. So perhaps it's fitting that it evolves into something else. Something closer to the American model. We should work within this something else to steer it into the right direction, not blow it up.

Thoughts?

Counter question. How do you get those tiny little hats to stay on your head when you're dancing to those fat klezmer beats?

The blood of christian children is sticky

Quote:Quote:

https://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2007/...ensch.html

“Mensch” or “mensh” comes from Yiddish by way of the German word mensch, or “person.” The standard dictionaries I’ve checked define “mensch” (or “mensh”) as an admirable or honorable human being, which of course could go either way.

Quote: (09-21-2017 10:16 AM)scrambled Wrote:  

Quote:Quote:

by way of the German word mensch, or “person.”

https://www.google.com/search?q=flag+of+germany

No, the EUssr is about to collapse and the proud European nation state will rise again.

Quote: (09-21-2017 10:22 AM)Guitarman Wrote:  

No, the EUssr is about to collapse and the proud European nation state will rise again.

I just wonder if each individual state has the capacity to close its borders from mass immigration without some form of cooperation (unless you're an island).

The problem people are easy to identify.

Why would a mega Euro state be any more stable than a collection of smaller ones? America isn't the role model you think it is, we're constantly fighting to keep our shitty Federal government from going into full crazy mode. And we're not very successful at it, constantly racking up unsustainable debt loads, never-ending wars, and destruction of our own culture. At best we can slow down the tide.

Be careful what you wish for.

Quote: (09-21-2017 11:13 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Why would a mega Euro state be any more stable than a collection of smaller ones? America isn't the role model you think it is, we're constantly fighting to keep our shitty Federal government from going into full crazy mode. And we're not very successful at it, constantly racking up unsustainable debt loads, never-ending wars, and destruction of our own culture. At best we can slow down the tide.

Be careful what you wish for.

I don't actually 'wish' for it - it's a hot take, an inflammatory thought that I don't necessarily agree with take made me think.

I can see the problem in America, but at least you are able to have a strong sense of united identity which means that for any immigrant to be accepted they have to fit the mould. The fact is that Europe is in this fight between pan-Europeanism and nationalism, but if you believe that pan-Europeanism will eventually win (that's an assumption, though I find there's evidence for it) we might be better off fighting within this context for a culturally strong Europe that takes care of its own instead of fighting for a nation state that might turn into a lefty paradise anyway.

Quote: (09-21-2017 11:35 AM)mensch Wrote:  

Quote: (09-21-2017 11:13 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

Why would a mega Euro state be any more stable than a collection of smaller ones? America isn't the role model you think it is, we're constantly fighting to keep our shitty Federal government from going into full crazy mode. And we're not very successful at it, constantly racking up unsustainable debt loads, never-ending wars, and destruction of our own culture. At best we can slow down the tide.

Be careful what you wish for.

I don't actually 'wish' for it - it's a hot take, an inflammatory thought that I don't necessarily agree with take made me think.

I can see the problem in America, but at least you are able to have a strong sense of united identity which means that for any immigrant to be accepted they have to fit the mould. The fact is that Europe is in this fight between pan-Europeanism and nationalism, but if you believe that pan-Europeanism will eventually win (that's an assumption, though I find there's evidence for it) we might be better off fighting within this context for a culturally strong Europe that takes care of its own instead of fighting for a nation state that might turn into a lefty paradise anyway.

But the American experience shows it is extremely difficult to make a strong universal culture. At least with nation states if one goes bad, you have other nations to run to. In America we have states that become dumps all the time, and it's no big deal because people migrate. E.g. Michigan.

The larger the pool, the greater the potential for the tragedy of the commons. America is totally unique because it was formed by a monolithic Christian culture of 90% Whites over 450 years. As this dissolves, America is becoming increasingly unstable and bankrupt from all the differing groups with allegiance to themselves instead of America.

Larger centralization is not the answer, although it does give temporary power advantages.

America works because we have a common language (English) and a common religious cultural framework (Christianity).

The European Union is a multilanguage atheist state.

The EU won't last and the "moslems" you claim coming in that will be good will find themselves increasingly unwelcome. A prime recipe for a good civil war.

"Thoughts?"

-The American model has been a mostly European origin nation up until very recently though. (between 85-90 percent.)
In fact you can track the decline of the US, and you will find that it correlates with the number Europeans versus other ethnic groups, particularly the influx of Hispanics. So the current US model with enormous debt etc. is obviously not one to follow.

-Balkanization and smaller Nations and subunits are historically linked to peaceful relations, as opposed to large centrally controlled empires and nations.
Think of Rome, The British Empire, the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia etc. In fact the former Yugoslavia is a good example of the peace-generating capacity of having smaller autonomous units. The process of break-up might be painful, but`s that`s because these peoples never should have been forced to live under one flag in the first place.
Also study Europe during the middle-ages. It was extremely balkanized and a pretty peaceful era.

-Nations are really a continuation of tribalism, which is a natural tendency in humans. Hence the various ethnic groups inhabiting different nation states are not a random collection of people but rather people that share similar genetic origins.
The fact that nation states have evolved naturally all over the planet speaks volumes to their validity and importance.



   
Apologies for the EU flag

Quote: (09-21-2017 01:08 PM)Johnnyvee Wrote:  

"Thoughts?"

-The American model has been a mostly European origin nation up until very recently though. (between 85-90 percent.)
In fact you can track the decline of the US, and you will find that it correlates with the number Europeans versus other ethnic groups, particularly the influx of Hispanics. So the current US model with enormous debt etc. is obviously not one to follow.

-Balkanization and smaller Nations and subunits are historically linked to peaceful relations, as opposed to large centrally controlled empires and nations.
Think of Rome, The British Empire, the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia etc. In fact Yugoslavia is a good example of the peace-generating capacity of having smaller autonomous units. The process of break-up might be painful, but`s that`s because these peoples should never have been forced to live under one flag in the first place.
Also study Europe during the middle-ages. It was extremely balkanized and a pretty peaceful era.

-Nations are really a continuation of tribalism, which is a natural tendency in humans. Hence the various ethnic groups inhabiting different nation states are not a random collection of people but rather people that share similar genetic origins.
The fact that nation states have evolved naturally all over the planet speaks volumes to their validity and importance.

On your specific point, I agree that cultural, linguistic and religious unity tend to cause peace, but these are becoming increasingly irrelevant as the pan-Europeanists are successful in their ideological fight of creating a 'European identity'.

So how to deal with the very real fact of the crumbling of Europe as millions of non-western immigrants are forcing their way into the continent? The point is what is the more efficient fight: accept the pan-European blob but make sure that it includes the protection of the European peoples, or fight for nationalism?

Quote: (09-21-2017 10:46 AM)mensch Wrote:  

Quote: (09-21-2017 10:22 AM)Guitarman Wrote:  

No, the EUssr is about to collapse and the proud European nation state will rise again.

I just wonder if each individual state has the capacity to close its borders from mass immigration without some form of cooperation (unless you're an island).

The Hungarians would like a word with you.

Quote: (09-21-2017 01:28 PM)mensch Wrote:  

So how to deal with the very real fact of the crumbling of Europe as millions of non-western immigrants are forcing their way into the continent? The point is what is the more efficient fight: accept the pan-European blob but make sure that it includes the protection of the European peoples, or fight for nationalism?

The "pan-European blob" is precisely why the peoples of Europe have no protection from non-white migrants.

The "pan-European blob" as headed by Angela Merkel and Emmanuel Macron is causing the problem.

The "pan-European blob" is currently trying to force Hungary and the other Visegrád states to take in the non-white migrants you think they can somehow protect Europeans from.

Richard Spencer, is that you?

Fair enough. So you think that if you fragment Europe, Hungary will stop puking moslems into Vienna despite Kurz's best efforts, and the Germans and French will see the light of day, or you think we should just sacrifice France and Germany with their Macron and Merkel for the survival of Poland and Hungary?

I skimmed through the article but was able to pick up at least half a dozen examples of the type of relativism/sophism that has permeated the thinking patterns of the past two European generations. Let me all boil it down to this:

Keep rejecting your own identity, your own language, your own cultural heritage and traditions, your own past, and one day not so far in the future you will wake up and realize that everything you may ever have held dear and true has been completely eviscerated, and worse that you don't have a country to call home and live in anymore. And even worse, soon thereafter you will come to realize that you are not welcome anywhere else.

I am from Britain and voted for Brexit, but I am now considering a move to Germany. I dont think nationalism is dead in Europe nor is being taken over by eurocentrism. European nations still seem to have a national cultural identities, languages and histories. Germany, France, Spain, Italy, Greece, Sweden etc are all different countries with different cultures and social values/norms/expectations.

Where the Eurozone is important is its ability to unite and conserve European traditional values and identities against the hardcore capitalist ideas of the US and UK. The UK specifically, is in a very bad situation and is not likely to be a good place to live for much longer, unless you are white-middle class (in the top 20% or so) or a poor immigrant who is happy for any opportunity in the West. It is a complicated topic but I blame hardcore capitalism, the idea that making a profit is the determinent of goodness or success.

Europe seems to have more of a focus on social values, work-life balance, frugality etc. I even heard from someone that British men are more stressed than Europeans. Well, British men are dominated more than most. In Germany for instance I hear that mothers are expected to stay at home and school hours reflect this, but in UK it is the opposite. We often deride Europe for it's liberalism especially German, but I think in the German case it is more due to the consciousness of the mistakes of the past. I do believe these societies to be more cultured and traditional than those of US/UK.

Britain had to leave the EU because it is more like the US in many ways and it's membership didnt make sense for a number of reasons. Britain is doing very poorly at the moment, and the US hardly seems like a country with any real cultural or social capital. Better the EU club together and protect itself from the social decay of those countries.

Quote: (09-21-2017 12:32 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

America works because we have a common language (English) and a common religious cultural framework (Christianity).

We no longer have those things and thus the American project is doomed to fail.

Quote: (09-21-2017 01:49 PM)mensch Wrote:  

Fair enough. So you think that if you fragment Europe, Hungary will stop puking moslems into Vienna despite Kurz's best efforts, and the Germans and French will see the light of day, or you think we should just sacrifice France and Germany with their Macron and Merkel for the survival of Poland and Hungary?

It's not Hungary's fault that Austria won't deport Muslim migrants or build a border wall to keep them out. Nothing's stopping them from doing either.

It's not Hungary's fault that the French and Germans keep electing suicidal leaders.

The French had a clear choice between a nationalist presidential candidate and a globalist one earlier this year, and they voted for the globalist in a landslide.

Angela Merkel is almost certainly going to win a fourth term as chancellor this Sunday, because Germans love her and keep supporting her.

I don't know how you think it's even remotely possible to turn the E.U., a leftist-run collective of plutocrats whose explicit mission is to break down the cultures of Europe, into an organization that will protect those same cultures. Not when Merkel and the E.U.'s other leaders have already said that they will not abandon open borders no matter how many migrants flood in and how many problems they cause, or they won't even help pay for Hungary's border wall, even though Hungary built it as part of its requirement to enforce the E.U.'s external border.

If the French and Germans want to commit cultural suicide, it's not the Poles' or Hungarians' responsibility to save them. If someone repeatedly insists on self-destructing, past a certain point, you just have to let them go.

Quote: (09-21-2017 01:28 PM)mensch Wrote:  

Quote: (09-21-2017 01:08 PM)Johnnyvee Wrote:  

"Thoughts?"

-The American model has been a mostly European origin nation up until very recently though. (between 85-90 percent.)
In fact you can track the decline of the US, and you will find that it correlates with the number Europeans versus other ethnic groups, particularly the influx of Hispanics. So the current US model with enormous debt etc. is obviously not one to follow.

-Balkanization and smaller Nations and subunits are historically linked to peaceful relations, as opposed to large centrally controlled empires and nations.
Think of Rome, The British Empire, the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia etc. In fact Yugoslavia is a good example of the peace-generating capacity of having smaller autonomous units. The process of break-up might be painful, but`s that`s because these peoples should never have been forced to live under one flag in the first place.
Also study Europe during the middle-ages. It was extremely balkanized and a pretty peaceful era.

-Nations are really a continuation of tribalism, which is a natural tendency in humans. Hence the various ethnic groups inhabiting different nation states are not a random collection of people but rather people that share similar genetic origins.
The fact that nation states have evolved naturally all over the planet speaks volumes to their validity and importance.

On your specific point, I agree that cultural, linguistic and religious unity tend to cause peace, but these are becoming increasingly irrelevant as the pan-Europeanists are successful in their ideological fight of creating a 'European identity'.

So how to deal with the very real fact of the crumbling of Europe as millions of non-western immigrants are forcing their way into the continent? The point is what is the more efficient fight: accept the pan-European blob but make sure that it includes the protection of the European peoples, or fight for nationalism?

I really don`t think you can make the EU do anything they don`t want at this point. They are totally disconnected from their supposed electorate. What can an average guy living in Luton or Cologne really do to sway the likes of Juncker or van Rumpoy. Not much it seems.

It was individual European nations that eventually put on the brakes during the immigration crisis. Politicians where forced to act, or they would lose the next election. The EU elites couldn`t do anything about this development, but you got the impression that they where more than willing to let it continue. (Fortunately they don`t have an army yet)

I think democracy only works if there is a short route between the voter and the elected leaders. Otherwise you end up with an untouchable group of bureaucrats, and the whole decision making process becomes nebular, and more open to corruption by various interests.

Quote: (09-21-2017 03:17 PM)Extinguished Light Wrote:  

Quote: (09-21-2017 12:32 PM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

America works because we have a common language (English) and a common religious cultural framework (Christianity).

We no longer have those things and thus the American project is doomed to fail.

The only project that will fail is the European one. America is fine.
Spend less time in the big cities. The heartland is very much English speaking and still Christian.

Quote: (09-21-2017 09:51 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:  

Counter question. How do you get those tiny little hats to stay on your head when you're dancing to those fat klezmer beats?

Quote: (09-21-2017 07:00 PM)Johnnyvee Wrote:  

I think democracy only works if there is a short route between the voter and the elected leaders. Otherwise you end up with an untouchable group of bureaucrats, and the whole decision making process becomes nebular, and more open to corruption by various interests.

My theory is that it's less the layers between leader and voter and more the absolute size that affects it. In my proposition, democracy has certain size limits, in the same way that a spider when scaled up to giant size actually collapses in on itself.

Consider classical Greece, 4th century BC, from which our basic idea of democracy comes. Greek civilisation across every Greek island in the Aegean and elsewhere hit its high point at 5 to 6 million. And when you focus in on the city where the apogee of Greek democracy was practiced -- Athens -- you find that it applied to roughly 300,000 people tops out of which only 50,000 maximum could actually vote. That's a small city in present terms, a fucking small town if you assume complete enfranchisement and all 50,000 people in the town can vote.

On top of that, the Greek view of enfranchisement was much different: the only people who could vote were adult male citizens, neither resident aliens or slaves. This came out of the fact Greek democracy was an outgrowth of Greek aristocracy first.

And even then their democracies broke twice under oligarchic revolutions. The longest democratic period was under Pericles -- and Thucydides wearily recorded that people much preferred the theatrics of politics over substance.

The more people you allow to vote -- and especially now in an age of institutionalised narcissism -- the less impact one person's vote actually has. This is possibly a big reason certain men would have enthusiastically backed women's rights to vote: because once that happened, you had to convince literally 100% more people than you did before to make a substantial change to how things worked.