[ComebackKid]

Given how effective steroids (and other PEDs) are and given that the top tier physiques of fitness models / actors are build with them, I'm curious why regular lifters here are not using them (I'm sure some do)?

Have you evaluated evidence about negative side effects and made decision not to use PEDs because of that?
Do you consider it unethical?
Does getting top results do not matter to you?

This is the guy on other forum (DLTBB, fitmisc.net) that I've exchanged messages with and that posted his log with all the details on his steroid use:



This is essentially top-tier fitness model physique. What does it take to have a physique like this? Apart from training 5-6 times a week and dieting, he blasts and cruises and usually he's taking:
* Testosterone
* Some orals - superdrol, anadrol, winstrol, anavar
* Trenbolone A
* Masteron
* Fat loss stuff (clen, t3, etc.)

Test, Tren A and masteron seems to be the staple of the cycles that he runs.

[helmutschmidt31]

I have done many steroid cycles. I wish I never had touched the stuff. Reasons not to do steroids

1) The prominent effects, especially from stuff like Trenbolone, are transient. You might look great for a few months, but you can't take these drugs forever.
2) Recovery is much worse than most people admit. A huge number of users resort to running cycles 24/7 because they can't handle the comedown. I have abused steroids in the past, and one particularly difficult recovery was brutal. Seriously messed my life up.
3) Steroids induce mania in most people. Roid rage is an extreme case, but most people will at the very least be irrationally self confident and excessively sexual.
4) There are real, negative health consequences. Simply look at the number of bodybuilders who are dead in their 40s. The biggest issue is high red blood cell counts.
5) It gets real old sticking a needle in your body EOD.
6) Sex is more pleasurable when you're off the stuff.
7) the evidence is clear that steroids cause a significant increase in risk for mental illness. While it is always difficult to prove causation, I will say that I am not the same person I was before I ever started cycling.

My recommendation to anyone looking to cycle is to try running Clomid 25mg ED and Proviron 50mg ED. You will get the self confidence you want, and the clomid will increase your testosterone levels to the maximum level. You'll blow huge loads, and sex will be great.

If you do cycle, I would ignore all bodybuilding websites, with the possible exception of thinksteroids.com. Whatever you do, do not use long estered products. The shit stays in your system for months. Oral steroids are far safer, out of your system quickly, and give better results than most admit.

[Lagavulin]

(09-02-2017 11:12 AM)ComebackKid Wrote:  

Given how effective steroids (and other PEDs) are and given that the top tier physiques of fitness models / actors are build with them, I'm curious why regular lifters here are not using them (I'm sure some do)?

This is why... thread-64477...rich+piana

In my opinion that dude doesn't look good, his physique looks too extreme and would put a lot of chicks off. Some may disagree.

Each to their own but lean, athletic and muscular is where it's at for me. This can be achieved by training and eating properly, without endangering your health by using steroids, and without looking like your whole life revolves around going to the gym.

Put some muscle on but know when to rein it in. Enjoy a beer from time to time and pursue interests other than training and dieting.

There's more to life, and there's more to being the best man you can be than packing on as much muscle as possible whatever the cost.

[Kieran]

^ yeah no hate as I know many on the forum are using and would love to have that physique, but I have zero interest in looking like that guy and I'd die of embarrassment walking into a bar looking like that. I'm also very close to my goal physique already, so taking gear to get to that final stage doesn't really make sense and would rob me of the satisfaction. I'm also not interested in anything that messes with the ability to produce testosterone and my virility (no way I'm potentially risking being on gear for the rest of my life because my natural production doesn't come back on after a cycle, or fucking with my potency (see how most on gear have daughters for example - this is real)). If I was a professional athlete with the potential to make big money then I'd 100% use it though.

[The Beast1]

For the simplest reason: cash.

Steroids are the absolute greatest tools we have as men to improve our livelihoods. My goals aren't to become freakishly big, but to maximize what I am capable of genetically.

Steroids can very much be too much of a good thing and to do a cycle correctly you need to approach it very methodically with tests before, during, and after to things are in check.

I have modest goals for both weight and strength. , which is the most any of us should ask for. Anything beyond that point and the trade offs start to build up. Until gene splicing and other genetic hacks come to the forefront, I'm happy doing what I can to push myself to the limits of what my genetics can handle.

[Steelex]

My last cycle was damn near 40 weeks and I bounced back just fine after 8 weeks off no PCT.

Not everyone is that lucky.

There are many different degrees of running gear. Running 400mg of test a week isn't the same as running a gram of test, and half a gram of tren, nor is it the same as running test, tren, peptides, gh and insulin.

It's different for everyone but you can get great results without going ham diddly damn.

[bside]

don't worth the risks (includes hair loss and gynecomastia),
you can have a good result only keeping yourself on diet and lifting weight/practicing a sport.

[rudebwoy]

Enlarged prostate and high blood pressure.

[Repo]

Tried years ago but stopped because health complications. Sex on steroids is one of the greatest things I have experienced, and is actually the main reason I think about trying it again, so much better than weed or coke. On a good cycle every round of sex feels just as good as the first, you can literally fuck all night every day it seems.

[Sidney Crosby]

I wouldn't even want to look like that guy.

When I'm 30+, I'd consider something like TRT if I was on the low side.

[Kona]

(09-02-2017 11:12 AM)ComebackKid Wrote:  

This is the guy on other forum (DLTBB, fitmisc.net) that I've exchanged messages with and that posted his log with all the details on his steroid use:

Don't do steroids because you wind up trading pictures online with dudes like that pulling up their shorts to show you how sexy they are, hoping youll send them some dirty selfies. Its probably some fat guy jerking off in an apartment by the airport.

Aloha!

[Lermontov]

(09-02-2017 11:12 AM)ComebackKid Wrote:  

This is essentially top-tier fitness model physique. What does it take to have a physique like this? Apart from training 5-6 times a week and dieting, he blasts and cruises and usually he's taking:
* Testosterone
* Some orals - superdrol, anadrol, winstrol, anavar
* Trenbolone A
* Masteron
* Fat loss stuff (clen, t3, etc.)

Test, Tren A and masteron seems to be the staple of the cycles that he runs.

Taking oral anabolic steroids is extremly unadvised. You expose yourself to significant hepatotoxicity that way. If one wants to use anabolic steroids, he should inject them in the buttocks (the right way obviously, being careful not to stick the needle in the sciatic nerve...)

[helmutschmidt31]

(09-02-2017 01:17 PM)Steelex Wrote:  

My last cycle was damn near 40 weeks and I bounced back just fine after 8 weeks off no PCT.

Not everyone is that lucky.

There are many different degrees of running gear. Running 400mg of test a week isn't the same as running a gram of test, and half a gram of tren, nor is it the same as running test, tren, peptides, gh and insulin.

It's different for everyone but you can get great results without going ham diddly damn.

This is emblematic of the mindset that people have when they are on steroids. I think it goes without saying that 40 weeks is absolutely reckless.

Anyone who runs cycles of that kind of duration simply does not have a valid opinion worth considering.

[helmutschmidt31]

(09-02-2017 03:21 PM)Lermontov Wrote:  

(09-02-2017 11:12 AM)ComebackKid Wrote:  

This is essentially top-tier fitness model physique. What does it take to have a physique like this? Apart from training 5-6 times a week and dieting, he blasts and cruises and usually he's taking:
* Testosterone
* Some orals - superdrol, anadrol, winstrol, anavar
* Trenbolone A
* Masteron
* Fat loss stuff (clen, t3, etc.)

Test, Tren A and masteron seems to be the staple of the cycles that he runs.

Taking oral anabolic steroids is extremly unadvised. You expose yourself to significant hepatotoxicity that way. If one wants to use anabolic steroids, he should inject them in the buttocks (the right way obviously, being careful not to stick the needle in the sciatic nerve...)

I'm always perplexed by this bodybuilding forum nonsense. Oral anabolic steroids are no more hard on your body than tylenol. The risk of hepatoxicity is very low, and we have volumes of data particularly from East Germany about how to use them effectively.

Oral steroids are infinitely preferable to injectables for so many reasons. Outside of eschewing the risk of injecting black market crap deep inside your muscles on a regular basis, the duration of action of oral steroids means you have no risk of long term suppression.

It's really simple. Vain bodybuilders make these claims. Olympic athletes do not. Who do you want to mimic?

[Repo]

Dude you have no clue what you are talking about. Oral steroids are way worse on the liver and have way more/worse side effects.

[joecolombia]

It`s simply not worth it. You would have to be dedicated and fit all your life, and that is something i dont see myself doing even in the short term.

That and all the side effects. I think people that juice up end up craving it like cocaine. They eventually turn vigorexic.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

It can be done well enough with limited side-effects if you use high-end product at highly supervised doses:



It comes to 60.000$/year and gives you about as much testosterone as most men have in their teens. But most of the stuff used unsupervised, the quality is much lower.

[Lermontov]

(09-02-2017 03:27 PM)helmutschmidt31 Wrote:  

(09-02-2017 03:21 PM)Lermontov Wrote:  

(09-02-2017 11:12 AM)ComebackKid Wrote:  

This is essentially top-tier fitness model physique. What does it take to have a physique like this? Apart from training 5-6 times a week and dieting, he blasts and cruises and usually he's taking:
* Testosterone
* Some orals - superdrol, anadrol, winstrol, anavar
* Trenbolone A
* Masteron
* Fat loss stuff (clen, t3, etc.)

Test, Tren A and masteron seems to be the staple of the cycles that he runs.

Taking oral anabolic steroids is extremly unadvised. You expose yourself to significant hepatotoxicity that way. If one wants to use anabolic steroids, he should inject them in the buttocks (the right way obviously, being careful not to stick the needle in the sciatic nerve...)

I'm always perplexed by this bodybuilding forum nonsense. Oral anabolic steroids are no more hard on your body than tylenol. The risk of hepatoxicity is very low, and we have volumes of data particularly from East Germany about how to use them effectively.

Oral steroids are infinitely preferable to injectables for so many reasons. Outside of eschewing the risk of injecting black market crap deep inside your muscles on a regular basis, the duration of action of oral steroids means you have no risk of long term suppression.

It's really simple. Vain bodybuilders make these claims. Olympic athletes do not. Who do you want to mimic?

You really made my day. I had a great laugh. ''Oral anabolic steroids are no more hard on your body than tylenol.'' LMAO

Go on pubmed https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed and search for peer-reviewed medical articles on the subject if you don't believe me.

[Vet-Boy]

The odd chance that it may shut down my natural testosterone production forever and I would become reliant on exogenous testosterone for my whole life. I have a fear in the back of my mind where what if one day i do not have access to exogenous test and I'm left as a shell of the man i once was due having no natural test production in my body. Think long term natural/financial disaster type of situation.

Anyways people can say what the want about how they think that physique is "too much" or "might put girls off" but we all know that the only reason any man would not want a jaw dropping physique like that is because of the work it requires to achieve and thereafter maintain.

There is a very broad idea of an ideal physique or one that elicits the most attraction from females on this forum. Some guys might think the 150lb swimmer bod is the ideal physique whereas other members such as myself may strive for a physique somewhere between the lines of a men's physique and classic physique competitor.

The point is that there is no point bickering over the choice of whether or not to use steroids unless there is a sort of common ideal among those involved in the discussion.

The dude working towards his swimmer bod is not going to understand why the guy working towards his ifbb class physique is on roids, same goes for vice versa.

One is rather easily achieved naturally (for some) whereas the other is in a supraphysiological class of its own. One does not understand why the other would work so hard to the point where it appears as a waste of life, whereas the other asks why the other lacks the drive they do.

Its just an endless cycle that gets no where in my opinion.

[SlickyBoy]

Reasons not to use? There are several, but I think the biggest one is when you're on it you will notice that because your body isn't producing the testosterone your nuts will shut down and shrink to the size of raisins. When you get off the cycle they will recover to normal size again, in a few weeks. I'm no doctor but that level of hormone adjustment can't possibly be good.

Unless you're an actor told to buff up for a few months to play a certain part (I would bet money Toby McGuire did a cycle of 'roids before he played Spider Man), walk away - even though the gains are incredible and you'll feel like a million bucks, it isn't worth the risk. Just eat right, work out and stay in shape - forget trying to be a meathead.

A while ago I read a post from a guy on this forum claiming to be a bodybuilder who mentioned that when he worked extra hard in the months leading up to a competition and really got big and cut, the only women who seemed to care were older broads - most younger women aren't all that impressed by the "permanent ski jacket" look.

[John Michael Kane]

Besides the health side-effects, I'd never use roids because of the girls that super-hulks attract. I've been in the gym scene for many years, and the biggest dudes always doing cycles always attracted super gym rat chicks which tend to be unfeminine. I'm talking the girls with more masculine frames, thick jaws, always with the spray-on tans, tats and fake boobs. Ugh, no thank you. I prefer feminine waif type girls, and those types generally are attracted to men who are fit and somewhat muscular, not the roided out dudes. There are diminishing returns when it comes to extreme forms of musculature.

[helmutschmidt31]

(09-02-2017 05:20 PM)Lermontov Wrote:  

You really made my day. I had a great laugh. ''Oral anabolic steroids are no more hard on your body than tylenol.'' LMAO

Go on pubmed https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed and search for peer-reviewed medical articles on the subject if you don't believe me.

How about this. Since you're the one making a bizarre claim unique to US bodybuilding forums, why don't YOU cite a real study, not anecdotes, that cite the risk.

Better yet, why not read the volumes of research published in East Germany. They gave turinabol to tens of thousands of athletes for some 20 years. Many, many side effects were reported. Hepatotoxicity was not a serious matter.

But, since I can tell this is bro logic central and you're clearly lazy, I'll post you a study by the NIH that clearly indicates the risks. And they are very minor compared to injecting black market steroids or using highly suppressive compounds like nandrolone or trenbolone.

https://livertox.nih.gov/AndrogenicSteroids.htm

[h3ltrsk3ltr]

(09-02-2017 06:37 PM)helmutschmidt31 Wrote:  

(09-02-2017 05:20 PM)Lermontov Wrote:  

You really made my day. I had a great laugh. ''Oral anabolic steroids are no more hard on your body than tylenol.'' LMAO

Go on pubmed https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed and search for peer-reviewed medical articles on the subject if you don't believe me.

How about this. Since you're the one making a bizarre claim unique to US bodybuilding forums, why don't YOU cite a real study, not anecdotes, that cite the risk.

Better yet, why not read the volumes of research published in East Germany. They gave turinabol to tens of thousands of athletes for some 20 years. Many, many side effects were reported. Hepatotoxicity was not a serious matter.

But, since I can tell this is bro logic central and you're clearly lazy, I'll post you a study by the NIH that clearly indicates the risks. And they are very minor compared to injecting black market steroids or using highly suppressive compounds like nandrolone or trenbolone.

https://livertox.nih.gov/AndrogenicSteroids.htm

He's got a point, with that study at least. Here's an extract, emphasis mine:

"The most serious complication of anabolic steroid use is the development of hepatic tumors, either adenoma or hepatocellular carcinoma. The hepatic tumors arise in patients on long term androgenic steroids, usually during therapy of aplastic anemia or hypogonadism, but occasionally in athletes or body builders using anabolic steroids illicitly. Tumors are typically found after 5 to 15 years of use, but onset within 2 years of starting therapy with testerosterone esters has been described'.

I did a cycle of enanthate a long time ago. We just ordered it online from god knows where and shot 10cc's in about 4 weeks. I'm pretty sure we were just lucky that we got stuff that didn't do anything negative other than make us a little more enraged than normal...as far as I can tell that is.

[Lermontov]

''Oral anabolic steroids are no more hard on your body than tylenol.''- helmutschmidt31

Neri M, Bello S, Bonsignore A, et al. Anabolic androgenic steroids abuse and liver toxicity. Mine Rev Med Chem. 2011;11(5):430–437

Gorayski P, Thompson CH, Subhash HS, Thomas AC. Hepatocellular carcinoma associated with recreational anabolic steroid use. Br J Sports Med. 2008;42(1):74–75; discussion 75.

POPE HG JR, WOOD RI, ROGOL A, NYBERG F, BOWERS
L, BHASIN S. Adverse health consequences of performance-enhancing
drugs: an endocrine society
scientific statement. Endocr Rev 2014; 35: 341-
375.

QUAGLIO G, FORNASIERO A, MEZZELANI P, MORESCHINI
S, LUGOBONI F, LECHI A. Anabolic steroids: dependence
and complications of chronic use. Intern
Emerg Med 2009; 4: 289-296

FRATI P, BUSARDÒ FP, CIPOLLONI L, DOMINICIS ED,
FINESCHI V. Anabolic Androgenic Steroid (AAS) related
deaths: autoptic, histopathological and toxicological
findings. Curr Neuropharmacol 2015; 13:
146-159.

BÜTTNER A,THIEME D. Side effects of anabolic androgenic
steroids: pathological findings and structure-activity
relationships. Handb Exp Pharmacol
2010; 195: 459-484.

NIESCHLAG E, VORONA E. Doping with anabolic androgenic
steroids (AAS): adverse effects on nonreproductive
organs and functions. Rev Endocr
Metab Disord 2015; 16: 199-211

SOCAS L, ZUMBADO M, PÉREZ-LUZARDO O, RAMOS A,
PÉREZ C, HERNÁNDEZ JR, BOADA LD. Hepatocellular
adenomas associated with anabolic androgenic
steroid abuse in bodybuilders: a report of two cases
and a review of the literature. Br J Sports Med
2005; 39: e27

BOND P, LLEWELLYN W, VAN MOL P. Anabolic androgenic
steroid-induced hepatotoxicity. Med Hypotheses
2016; 93: 150-153.

MODLINSKI R, FIELDS KB. The effect of anabolic
steroids on the gastrointestinal system, kidneys,
and adrenal glands. Curr Sports Med Rep 2006;
5: 104-109.

ROBLES-DIAZ M, GONZALEZ-JIMENEZ A, MEDINA-CALIZ I,
STEPHENS C, GARCÍA-CORTES M, GARCÍA-MUÑOZ B, ORTEGA-ALONSO
A, BLANCO-REINA E, GONZALEZ-GRANDE
R, JIMENEZ-PEREZ M, RENDÓN P, NAVARRO JM, GINES P,
PRIETO M, GARCIA-ELIZ M, BESSONE F, BRAHM JR,
PARANÁ R, LUCENA MI, ANDRADE RJ; SPANISH DILI REGISTRY;
SLATINDILI NETWORK. Distinct phenotype of hepatotoxicity
associated with illicit use of anabolic
androgenic steroids. Aliment Pharmacol Ther
2015; 41: 116-125.

GIANNITRAPANI L, SORESI M, LA SPADA E, CERVELLO M,
D'ALESSANDRO N, MONTALTO G. Sex hormones and
risk of liver tumor. Ann N Y Acad Sci 2006; 1089:
228-236.

Many cardiac effects as well (like tylenol lol?).

Far HR, Ågren G, Thiblin I. Cardiac hypertrophy in deceased users of anabolic androgenic steroids: an investigation of autopsy findings. Cardiovasc Pathol. 2012;21(4):312–316.

Sculthorpe N, Grace F, Jones P, Davies B. Evidence of altered cardiac electrophysiology following prolonged androgenic anabolic steroid use. Cardiovasc Toxicol. 2010;10(4):239–243.

Maior AS, Carvalho AR, Marques-Neto SR, Menezes P, Soares PP, Nascimento JH. Cardiac autonomic dysfunction in anabolic steroid users. Scand J Med Sci Sports. 2013;23(5):548–555.

Montisci R, Cecchetto G, Ruscazio M, et al. Early myocardial dysfunction after chronic use of anabolic androgenic steroids: combined pulsed-wave tissue Doppler imaging and ultrasonic integrated backscatter cyclic variations analysis. J Am Soc Echocardiogr. 2010;23(5):516–522.

Baggish AL, Weiner RB, Kanayama G, et al. Long-term anabolic-androgenic steroid use is associated with left ventricular dysfunction. Circulation. 2010;3:472–476

[Vet-Boy]

Also i think theres a need to clarify the fact for unaware readers and contributers that just because you take steroids does NOT mean you will become an instant freak-beast and die of a heart attack after letting out a massive roid rage.

Like Steelex stated earlier, there is a huge variation in which compounds you can run and what results they will produce.

Your appearance and overall health will be a culminative result of your choice in diet, genetic predispositions, choice of compounds, cycle durations and a myriad of other lifestyle choices.

I will admit steroids are not something to be taken lightly and should be used with utmost caution under strict supervision.

But they are also not something to be feared and the users ridiculed and labelled.

The whole reason for me writing this is to try and create an unbiased perspective where people who can benefit from steroid use are not deterred as a result of fear mongers and those who may not be disciplined enough to make use of the substance responsibly take a minute to rethink their descision.

Steroids are a tool