[Cambodian Creamsicle]

^ think you need to get real. No one achieves the type of physique in op's pic without gear. Sounds like you'd believe Mike O'Hearn is natty too.

[RexImperator]

Quote:

No one achieves the type of physique in op's pic without gear.

I think that's true- the extremely low body fat with all those veins in showing in the arms is not a naturally achievable look. Also, the abnormally large delts and traps, muscles with a lot on androgen receptors, indicates use of exogenous hormones.

[Thrill Jackson]

(09-02-2017 04:56 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

It can be done well enough with limited side-effects if you use high-end product at highly supervised doses:



It comes to 60.000$/year and gives you about as much testosterone as most men have in their teens. But most of the stuff used unsupervised, the quality is much lower.

Anyway to do that legally in the U.S. ? If not what country would legally allow you do steroids?

Also is that 60k a year? That period in place of a comma is throwing me off

[CaptainChardonnay]

(09-04-2017 10:36 PM)sonoran_ Wrote:  

I have a small body frame and have had body dismorphia since junior high.
I started working out seriously in grade 12 and in 1-2 years put on about 30 lbs of weight. Ive been relatively stable at 150 lbs for a long time and it takes me considerable effort to shoot for 160. Even when I try to I just seem to gain body fat.

AKA I have absolutely shit genetics. I dont look like I lift, unless I take my short off to reveal a decently athletic body. Ive seen kids come to the gym for 3 months and get bigger than me and Ive been at it for 8 years.

Body dysmorphia + shit genetics + having 0 experience with girls ( which is the reason we all STARTED weight lifting if we're honest) means Im ready to do drastic shit.

You might say I have psychological issues, and I probably do, but Im going to hop on some testosterone cypionate.

If what LINUX says is even 10% true, to me its worth it.

Dude you're not eating enough. As mentioned before you need to be eating until you feel like puking. Thats how it should feel like.

[Truth Teller]

Many reasons. The most notable ones:

1. Nobody knows what steroids do to the body long-term. There aren't many (any?) longitudinal studies that address the issue.

2. Illegality, I can think of several things I'd much rather go to jail for.

3. Loser mentality. Frankly, I think steroids are for guys who see themselves as incapable of winning/building a good body without them. This mentality is especially prevalent in PL and WL, where guys will take under the belief that you can't win without them.

4. They're banned by any federation I'm interested in lifting in (USAPL, IPF, etc.)

[theking]

(09-05-2017 10:05 AM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

Many reasons. The most notable ones:

1. Nobody knows what steroids do to the body long-term. There aren't many (any?) longitudinal studies that address the issue.

2. Illegality, I can think of several things I'd much rather go to jail for.

3. Loser mentality. Frankly, I think steroids are for guys who see themselves as incapable of winning/building a good body without them. This mentality is especially prevalent in PL and WL, where guys will take under the belief that you can't win without them.

4. They're banned by any federation I'm interested in lifting in (USAPL, IPF, etc.)

1. Testosterone has been around for a long time. There are many studies on this.
2. Not Illegal in my country
3. I believe its a "loser mentality" to think like that. Every single one of the pro athletes people look up to this day is using PEDS. It's called doing what is necessary to win and be the best. The opposite of losing.
4. If they are banned you can bet most if not all the people winning contests use them

[rudebwoy]

delete

[Steelex]

(09-05-2017 07:25 AM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  

(09-04-2017 10:36 PM)sonoran_ Wrote:  

I have a small body frame and have had body dismorphia since junior high.
I started working out seriously in grade 12 and in 1-2 years put on about 30 lbs of weight. Ive been relatively stable at 150 lbs for a long time and it takes me considerable effort to shoot for 160. Even when I try to I just seem to gain body fat.

AKA I have absolutely shit genetics. I dont look like I lift, unless I take my short off to reveal a decently athletic body. Ive seen kids come to the gym for 3 months and get bigger than me and Ive been at it for 8 years.

Body dysmorphia + shit genetics + having 0 experience with girls ( which is the reason we all STARTED weight lifting if we're honest) means Im ready to do drastic shit.

You might say I have psychological issues, and I probably do, but Im going to hop on some testosterone cypionate.

If what LINUX says is even 10% true, to me its worth it.

Dude you're not eating enough. As mentioned before you need to be eating until you feel like puking. Thats how it should feel like.

How did you come to this conclusion?

That's pretty much bullshit. Eating till you puke is just eating till you're fat.

There are better ways to get to the finish line.

[teddy bear]

Wow. Everyone saying that steroids are bad, destroying and so on simply don't have sufficient knowledge about them. I expected a bit different responses on this forum regarding steroids to be honest. It's like so many people here sees only "mass propaganda" on how bad steroids are and how MANY bodybuilders died from them, like recently popular death of Rich Piana who was taking more juice in the ass than we take orange juice into our stomach.

If you run regular tests, know what's what there is little risk in taking them + what's most important, there is juicing and juicing, because there is a difference between running 500mg of test with full blood tests, healthy eating habits etc and 3 grams of test + 800 deca + 600 tren + 50mg Dbol, right?

Besides it depends on your GOALS - if you work out to have an excuse for your drinking every second day, then don't start any cycle, but if you have any BIGGER goals, then there is no stopping you.

One thing that I can't understand at all is how is using steroids CHEATING? It's like saying that people buying cars with automatic transmissions are cheating, because you chose to drive with manual transmission.
Steroids won't turn you into Dorian Yates overnight, you still gotta be on decent diet and put a lot of time into your work out.

I agree that you can build a lot naturally, obviously everybody is different, but if you bust your ass and spam chicken with broccoli for a few years you can get the body that will satisfy 99% of men, thing is that not everyone has time and desire to turn their whole life around working out, cardio and measuring your chicken's weight on jewelry scales and steroids allows you to reach this level much faster and easier without shortening your life like I've heard LOL. If you want to look like the guy in the OP's picture then you have to put something in, ultra dedication or dedication + juice and for most people it will require the latter..
There is also group of people who already busted their ass of for a couple of years, but it is not enough for them and they dream of being the biggest motherfucker in town and you need proper juicing to achieve that as well.


Just like with everything in life, you gotta be smart. Don't overdo it and don't get ADDICTED to getting bigger and bigger. You did a few cycles, you got bigger, stronger and more ripped than every other guy at your gym, but you won't stop and you want to get better and better - that's the biggest downside for steroids imo, your GREED, because you can't be on this stuff forever, but if you have your shit together then it's a great tool to make your life of better quality.

(09-05-2017 10:05 AM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

2. Illegality, I can think of several things I'd much rather go to jail for.

??? How many people do you know in jail for getting caught with a spliff? Same rule applies here, unless you are selling then there's very little chance that somebody would even bother with this... otherwise we would have jails full of skinny teenagers that want to increase their chances with girls, but have no clue on how to do that.

[Lagavulin]

(09-05-2017 12:00 PM)teddy bear Wrote:  

Wow. Everyone saying that steroids are bad, destroying and so on simply don't have sufficient knowledge about them. I expected a bit different responses on this forum regarding steroids to be honest. It's like so many people here sees only "mass propaganda" on how bad steroids are and how MANY bodybuilders died from them, like recently popular death of Rich Piana who was taking more juice in the ass than we take orange juice into our stomach.

How much knowledge do you need to have in order to form an opinion?

There are pro's and con's, which have been debated fairly sensibly.

The OP asked why some people don't use them and we have replied, some don't feel the need as they are not looking to attain extreme results, others because of the health risks. Some guys do advocate their use and that's their choice.

The fact is crazy size is not for everyone, and if you are not looking to get results beyond what a normal consistent routine and diet can provide why would you take steroids?

[TheFinalEpic]

There's a lot of men who SHOULDNT be taking steroids, ie. Those that think it's a cure all for a garbage diet, lack of knowledge in the gym, or taking them simply to go clubbing and do copious amounts of other drugs and alcohol.

Those are the guys you see bow out early, not the methodical guys who run a clinic on diet, lifting, and clean lifestyle. I also truly believe a lot of the stuff that "steroids" get blamed for is under a blanket of insulin and growth hormone use. Running test and deca with consistent blood testing and doctor supervision isn't going to kill you or make you have a heart attack. Insulin use without supervision is stupid as fuck and will.

[worldwidetraveler]

I always enjoy these threads because it almost always end up being the same arguments like Money versus Game or Good Looks versus Game.

Very entertaining.

I'm older than a lot of you and can see myself getting on testosterone at some time. I probably should be on it right now but wanted to get to a point in my workouts to see what changes I can make naturally before doing so.

With that said, I don't understand the whole "It's cheating" rhetoric. This isn't a contest. There isn't a trophy for doing it naturally or with the help of steroids.

This is about the end goal. It may not be worth it to many and that is perfectly fine. I don't understand why the need to put down others that have decided that it was worth it. You still need to put in a lot of effort into the gym and your diet. No need to try and take that huge effort away from someone just because you don't want to put the time in or decide to take a different path.

[rudebwoy]

(09-05-2017 10:05 AM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

Many reasons. The most notable ones:

1. Nobody knows what steroids do to the body long-term. There aren't many (any?) longitudinal studies that address the issue.

2. Illegality, I can think of several things I'd much rather go to jail for.

3. Loser mentality. Frankly, I think steroids are for guys who see themselves as incapable of winning/building a good body without them. This mentality is especially prevalent in PL and WL, where guys will take under the belief that you can't win without them.

4. They're banned by any federation I'm interested in lifting in (USAPL, IPF, etc.)

1. What does alcohol and smoking do to you long term.

2. They are illegal because they make you look better and government doesn't want the population to be healthy. Funny how the government is alright with guys taking Viagra/Ciallis but not basic testosterone.

3. It will take years if not longer to get a great body. I am sorry but most guys where I live don't have a good body.

4. What do I care about a federation, I am not an athlete.

[Steelex]

(09-05-2017 01:00 AM)Cambodian Creamsicle Wrote:  

^ think you need to get real. No one achieves the type of physique in op's pic without gear. Sounds like you'd believe Mike O'Hearn is natty too.

O hearn looks great but aside from being jacked doesn't show many of the signs of being on. No acne, gyno, enlarged traps, no wild swings in weight or water retention, etc. And he's been huge for like 30 years. Most any other guy who's been on gear for 30 years has a certain look to them, which mike doesn't have.

Not saying he's clean but if he's on, he's pretty damn smart about how he uses it.

He was also big as hell back in highschool. Dude is a freak among freaks.

[rudebwoy]

O Hearn is on the gear, don't kid yourself.

Let's keep it real.

[Steelex]

(09-05-2017 10:05 AM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

3. Loser mentality. Frankly, I think steroids are for guys who see themselves as incapable of winning/building a good body without them. This mentality is especially prevalent in PL and WL, where guys will take under the belief that you can't win without them.

If there is something you want, why would you not use what's available to get where you want?

It's like putting a supercharger or a bigger motor in a car if you wanna go fast. If you wanna get pretty fucking big, it's easier and faster with AAS. DUH. So why would I limit myself by not using the tools available?

Modifying your internal chemistry is extreme but it gets the job done.

[PlevenskiTarikat]

Shutting down your HPTA axis is no joke. I've tried TRT and had the most miserable experience ever on it; there are other hormones (pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA, etc.) affected by introducing exogenous testosterone and let's not forget the havoc estradiol can wreak. I'll stick to supraphysiological doses of iodine, zinc, transdermal magnesium, HoloSync meditation, and wearing a Ring of Power around my balls, which has me feeling god-like: something I never felt on TRT unfortunately even though I had my levels hovering around 1200 and free testosterone in the 99th percentile. It's very hard to have high T levels naturally when your body is lacking in the basic biochemical foundation (like having enough iodine, which controls your thyroid, which has a huge effect on testosterone) and your body is riddled with heavy metals (like mercury) and toxic halides (like fluoride and bromide), parasites, candida and other fungi, various bacteria and viruses, and loaded down with unresolved emotional trauma. It's much easier to reach for the vial of test cypionate or test propionate than going for the root cause.

[zoom]

(09-05-2017 02:39 PM)PlevenskiTarikat Wrote:  

Shutting down your HPTA axis is no joke. I've tried TRT and had the most miserable experience ever on it; there are other hormones (pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA, etc.) affected by introducing exogenous testosterone and let's not forget the havoc estradiol can wreak. I'll stick to supraphysiological doses of iodine, zinc, transdermal magnesium, HoloSync meditation, and wearing a Ring of Power around my balls, which has me feeling god-like: something I never felt on TRT unfortunately even though I had my levels hovering around 1200 and free testosterone in the 99th percentile. It's very hard to have high T levels naturally when your body is lacking in the basic biochemical foundation (like having enough iodine, which controls your thyroid, which has a huge effect on testosterone) and your body is riddled with heavy metals (like mercury) and toxic halides (like fluoride and bromide), parasites, candida and other fungi, various bacteria and viruses, and loaded down with unresolved emotional trauma. It's much easier to reach for the vial of test cypionate or test propionate than going for the root cause.

Great post, I would like to learn more about your natural testosterone routine. If you have time you should post more details in this thread:

thread-18388.html

[Parzival]

Assume someone trains regular since years, build a good body, decent body fat. Mental also stable - as it can be possible. I'm very sure you can run safe cycles when you check yourself and keep it low. It also depends what you take. Still the main question for me, what will I keep after? I see guys train one year like shit, use steroids and then they are big. Not direct good shape. Whats left when they stop taking it? Mostly not much. Steroids help you to push a certain level, when you keep your diet and your training even when off, what will you keep? Some guys use it on a high level and just look fit, I look fit and muscular already to most. For me would be only interesting to gain and keep about 3 to 5 kg of lean muscle. That is quite a lot when I add it to my now body.

Those that use steroids, of run a cycle and then go off. What are you able to keep? This is the main issue that did stop me to take it. Find kind of a "low" steroid. Primobolan Depot (Methenolon Enantat) is something I read about at the moment. Sounds like the stuff of choice when its not your goal to gain as much as possible in a short time.

[Truth Teller]

(09-05-2017 10:26 AM)theking Wrote:  

1. Testosterone has been around for a long time. There are many studies on this.
2. Not Illegal in my country
3. I believe its a "loser mentality" to think like that. Every single one of the pro athletes people look up to this day is using PEDS. It's called doing what is necessary to win and be the best. The opposite of losing.
4. If they are banned you can bet most if not all the people winning contests use them

Testosterone, yes. Other ones, not so much. Those that exist don't show great long-term effects. In terms of legality, I live in the US.

Third, not everybody high level uses PEDs, I think that's a lie that users sell themselves. I can think of a few high level guys I'm pretty sure are clean. USAPL (at least) is pretty good at testing people OOC, which makes use much tougher. IPF is (of course) international, so testing standards vary.

(09-05-2017 01:57 PM)Steelex Wrote:  

If there is something you want, why would you not use what's available to get where you want?

It's like putting a supercharger or a bigger motor in a car if you wanna go fast. If you wanna get pretty fucking big, it's easier and faster with AAS. DUH. So why would I limit myself by not using the tools available?

Modifying your internal chemistry is extreme but it gets the job done.

I can't think of too many things more important than your own health. I realize it's easier to gain mass with steroid use. I also realize that the long-term health effects are not pleasant. Unfortunately, a lot of guys who use think "some is good, so more must be better," not realizing that they're significantly shortening their lives.

(09-05-2017 01:34 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

1. What does alcohol and smoking do to you long term.

2. They are illegal because they make you look better and government doesn't want the population to be healthy. Funny how the government is alright with guys taking Viagra/Ciallis but not basic testosterone.

3. It will take years if not longer to get a great body. I am sorry but most guys where I live don't have a good body.

4. What do I care about a federation, I am not an athlete.

Smoking is pretty damn bad, so there's no debate there. Alcohol is different, a good amount of evidence suggests that alcohol is healthier for you than most people think (the government restrictions are kind of a joke, honestly). Steroids are illegal for reasons going beyond "the government doesn't want you to be healthy," that's almost tin foil hat nonsense.

Part of any accomplishment is going through the process. You tend to learn a lot via going through the motions to a good body/good lifts.

[teddy bear]

Yes, steroids are illegal for reasons beyond. It's easier to prohibit double-edged sword than to educate people on how to properly use it. Same goes for many controversial things, that should/shouldn't be legal.

[CaptainChardonnay]

(09-05-2017 11:57 AM)Steelex Wrote:  

(09-05-2017 07:25 AM)CaptainChardonnay Wrote:  

(09-04-2017 10:36 PM)sonoran_ Wrote:  

I have a small body frame and have had body dismorphia since junior high.
I started working out seriously in grade 12 and in 1-2 years put on about 30 lbs of weight. Ive been relatively stable at 150 lbs for a long time and it takes me considerable effort to shoot for 160. Even when I try to I just seem to gain body fat.

AKA I have absolutely shit genetics. I dont look like I lift, unless I take my short off to reveal a decently athletic body. Ive seen kids come to the gym for 3 months and get bigger than me and Ive been at it for 8 years.

Body dysmorphia + shit genetics + having 0 experience with girls ( which is the reason we all STARTED weight lifting if we're honest) means Im ready to do drastic shit.

You might say I have psychological issues, and I probably do, but Im going to hop on some testosterone cypionate.

If what LINUX says is even 10% true, to me its worth it.

Dude you're not eating enough. As mentioned before you need to be eating until you feel like puking. Thats how it should feel like.

How did you come to this conclusion?

That's pretty much bullshit. Eating till you puke is just eating till you're fat.

There are better ways to get to the finish line.

I should have asked the poster what his height was. I'm 5'10 so when I read that I assumed he was also and that he was only 150 for that height after training hard.

When I was bulking from 170 to 195 I had to get the calories in me until I felt like puking. I didn't get fat. Ate brown rice, ground beef, eggs, etc. It was the volume of rice that made it hard to hold down. That was on my first cycle, 500mg test e a week and I didn't want to waste it.

Even off cycle though you have to eat to put on weight as you know and yeah you can do it slowly but it will take forever.

[sonoran_]

Im 5'6 150 lbs... max ive been is 160 lbs. and starting to get that round face.

So like I said, tiny ass frame.

[CaptainChardonnay]

I'm pretty sure this guy is around 5'6 also. The reason he looks bigger than he is is because he's learner which gives the illusion of being bigger.

https://www.instagram.com/brian_choi_fitness/?hl=en

[nomadbrah]

(09-05-2017 01:03 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

I always enjoy these threads because it almost always end up being the same arguments like Money versus Game or Good Looks versus Game.

Very entertaining.

I'm older than a lot of you and can see myself getting on testosterone at some time. I probably should be on it right now but wanted to get to a point in my workouts to see what changes I can make naturally before doing so.

With that said, I don't understand the whole "It's cheating" rhetoric. This isn't a contest. There isn't a trophy for doing it naturally or with the help of steroids.

This is about the end goal. It may not be worth it to many and that is perfectly fine. I don't understand why the need to put down others that have decided that it was worth it. You still need to put in a lot of effort into the gym and your diet. No need to try and take that huge effort away from someone just because you don't want to put the time in or decide to take a different path.

Is considering steroids cheating beta or does it serve some purpose?

It's interesting, there is no immediate benefit for someone to not do steroids because they consider it cheating.

Is it hamsterising because of fear? Or is there some deeper ethical thing which people can't easily get over?