[Fortis]

(09-05-2017 06:42 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

(09-05-2017 01:03 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

I always enjoy these threads because it almost always end up being the same arguments like Money versus Game or Good Looks versus Game.

Very entertaining.

I'm older than a lot of you and can see myself getting on testosterone at some time. I probably should be on it right now but wanted to get to a point in my workouts to see what changes I can make naturally before doing so.

With that said, I don't understand the whole "It's cheating" rhetoric. This isn't a contest. There isn't a trophy for doing it naturally or with the help of steroids.

This is about the end goal. It may not be worth it to many and that is perfectly fine. I don't understand why the need to put down others that have decided that it was worth it. You still need to put in a lot of effort into the gym and your diet. No need to try and take that huge effort away from someone just because you don't want to put the time in or decide to take a different path.

Is considering steroids cheating beta or does it serve some purpose?

It's interesting, there is no immediate benefit for someone to not do steroids because they consider it cheating.

Is it hamsterising because of fear? Or is there some deeper ethical thing which people can't easily get over?

What always gets me is that guys here do not trust the government or big pharma, but they suddenly trust the government and big pharma only when it comes to testosterone and steroids. They have a vested interest in making men Low-T. A low-t population (women) are easier to control.

[DamienCasanova]

(09-02-2017 02:29 PM)Sidney Crosby Wrote:  

I wouldn't even want to look like that guy.

When I'm 30+, I'd consider something like TRT if I was on the low side.

Legit question, What are the reasons not to do TRT?

[rudebwoy]

(09-05-2017 04:45 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

Smoking is pretty damn bad, so there's no debate there. Alcohol is different, a good amount of evidence suggests that alcohol is healthier for you than most people think (the government restrictions are kind of a joke, honestly). Steroids are illegal for reasons going beyond "the government doesn't want you to be healthy," that's almost tin foil hat nonsense.

Part of any accomplishment is going through the process. You tend to learn a lot via going through the motions to a good body/good lifts.

I am talking from experience, not from some BS government study or research found online.

I am talking about people who abused alcohol and ended up dying or having kidney/liver problems as they got older. I am close to 50 years of age, so I have seen quite a bit.

I am talking about stuff I have heard from my mother, a former head nurse.

Some guys need to talk on this thread and most need to listen.

[LINUX]

(09-05-2017 04:45 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

Smoking is pretty damn bad, so there's no debate there. Alcohol is different, a good amount of evidence suggests that alcohol is healthier for you than most people think (the government restrictions are kind of a joke, honestly). Steroids are illegal for reasons going beyond "the government doesn't want you to be healthy," that's almost tin foil hat nonsense.

And that's enough internet for me today.

[worldwidetraveler]

(09-05-2017 06:42 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

Is considering steroids cheating beta or does it serve some purpose?

It's interesting, there is no immediate benefit for someone to not do steroids because they consider it cheating.

Is it hamsterising because of fear? Or is there some deeper ethical thing which people can't easily get over?

Great questions. I couldn't answer them since I never thought of this stuff as a contest which is what I imagine when someone uses the term cheating.

As most things, it comes down to how much someone wants a end goal. If they really don't want it, they won't go through the effort to attain it. You may hear a lot of excuses as to why they didn't do it... but at the end of the day, they just didn't want it bad enough.

There really is nothing wrong with not wanting something bad enough. Just don't take away from others that did and went through the effort to attain it.

Maybe there is a little bit of jealousy involved?

I never cared enough to get into body building like other guys. As we get older, weight training becomes more important for a healthy lifestyle. That is why I initially got involved more than anything.

I do admit my ego likes the muscle that I have put on while working out. I haven't reached a point where I want to dedicate the effort required to getting huge.

As for testosterone, I had problems with depression for most of my adult life. Once I made some lifestyle changes, I haven't had any issues and probably been the happiest I can remember. I am hesitant about changing my chemistry because I remember how difficult it was dealing with that depression. In other words, I'm a little bit of a chicken shit.

I imagine there will be a time when the negatives of reduced testosterone will outweigh that fear and I will seek out a doctor to work up a regime. Isn't that the reason why most of us change our habits? When the negatives of a habit become worst than the effort to change.

[CaptainChardonnay]

(09-05-2017 06:42 PM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

(09-05-2017 01:03 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

I always enjoy these threads because it almost always end up being the same arguments like Money versus Game or Good Looks versus Game.

Very entertaining.

I'm older than a lot of you and can see myself getting on testosterone at some time. I probably should be on it right now but wanted to get to a point in my workouts to see what changes I can make naturally before doing so.

With that said, I don't understand the whole "It's cheating" rhetoric. This isn't a contest. There isn't a trophy for doing it naturally or with the help of steroids.

This is about the end goal. It may not be worth it to many and that is perfectly fine. I don't understand why the need to put down others that have decided that it was worth it. You still need to put in a lot of effort into the gym and your diet. No need to try and take that huge effort away from someone just because you don't want to put the time in or decide to take a different path.

Is considering steroids cheating beta or does it serve some purpose?

It's interesting, there is no immediate benefit for someone to not do steroids because they consider it cheating.

Is it hamsterising because of fear? Or is there some deeper ethical thing which people can't easily get over?

It's probably the fact that most people don't know how to or want to jab a needle into themselves.

[eradicator]

(09-05-2017 07:26 PM)LINUX Wrote:  

(09-05-2017 04:45 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

Smoking is pretty damn bad, so there's no debate there. Alcohol is different, a good amount of evidence suggests that alcohol is healthier for you than most people think (the government restrictions are kind of a joke, honestly). Steroids are illegal for reasons going beyond "the government doesn't want you to be healthy," that's almost tin foil hat nonsense.

And that's enough internet for me today.

one glass of red wine per day will lower your cholesterol

[LINUX]

(09-05-2017 04:45 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

Smoking is pretty damn bad, so there's no debate there. Alcohol is different, a good amount of evidence suggests that alcohol is healthier for you than most people think (the government restrictions are kind of a joke, honestly). Steroids are illegal for reasons going beyond "the government doesn't want you to be healthy," that's almost tin foil hat nonsense.

Let's take something legal (Alcohol) and illegal (testosterone).

How many people died in 2016 due to excessive anabolic use?
How many people died in 2016 due to excessive alcohol use?

Let me help you with the answer to the second one (88,000 drunk themselves to death and choked on their own vomit).

Tell me the answer to the first question. I'm waiting.

[Repo]

The studies that link moderate drinking with health benefits actually have a large amount of criticism. For example, it has been pointed out that the studies did not take into account social economic status, as people who have only one class of a wine a day will on average be of a higher class than either a heavy drinker or someone who abtains completely, which means there are other things that should have been taken into account regarding sample selection that weren't. At best, light drinking correlates to various positive health benifits, but it is not concrete that is causes these benefits.

[rudebwoy]

^I like to drink, in fact I like to have a few when I go out.

I am not anti-drinking or anti-steroids or anti-drugs.

Alcohol is toxic to your body, pure and simple. So no amount of studies or research will have me think otherwise.

Wine is viewed as being alright to drink, when in fact it is stronger than beer.

I have seen what alcohol does to people in the UK and the Caribbean, I have family members who were and are alcoholics.

[Fortis]

(09-05-2017 08:38 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

^I like to drink, in fact I like to have a few when I go out.

I am not anti-drinking or anti-steroids or anti-drugs.

Alcohol is toxic to your body, pure and simple. So no amount of studies or research will have me think otherwise.

Wine is viewed as being alright to drink, when in fact it is stronger than beer.

I have seen what alcohol does to people in the UK and the Caribbean, I have family members who were and are alcoholics.

I'm with you. As a person of partial Carribean descent, I know far too many men who drank themselves into an early grave on and off the islands. I don't personally know one guy who TRT'd himself to death, but hey.

Don't bother, bro.

This is going to turn into "well if you only drink 1 glass of wine a day...."

Which sounds suspiciously like "if you only use a little testosterone for medicinal purposes......."

They'd never admit that stabbing yourself with enough testosterone every week to put yourself back in the high natural range could possibly be a healthy idea, but they're A-Ok with everyone having access to deleterious alcohol that is known to destroy families, lives, livers and careers.

I really don't get the testosterone hate here, but whatever.

[scotian]

Every morning when I wake up with a huge erection I'm reminded why I'm happy to be on TRT, the boners alone make it worth it, the gainz are pretty sweet too brahs

[Fortis]

(09-05-2017 09:46 PM)scotian Wrote:  

Every morning when I wake up with a huge erection I'm reminded why I'm happy to be on TRT, the boners alone make it worth it, the gainz are pretty sweet too brahs

Not to mention that feeling of perpetual well-being. Nothing better than waking up in the morning with morning wood and a smile on your face, prepping a healthy, protein-rich skillet of eggs and getting on with your day--but that's all bad for you! Sorry Scotian and Linux! You're gonna die!

[Cambodian Creamsicle]

Cons

- constant injections
- potential health risks
- anxiety surrounding the long term effects it's having on your body
- constant blood work
- taking other drugs to reduce the negative effects of the steroids
- increased estrogen
- balls shrinking
- potential for your natural T to not go back to normal
- acne
- balding
- potential psychological issues like becoming obsessed / addicted with getting bigger

Pros

- increased size and strength

So if you have normal T levels, aren't concerned with looking like O'Hearn, not struggling with women and you're not competing in professional sports, again, the better question is why take them?

[The Catalyst]

Maybe I'm splitting hairs but as someone who's not completely familiar it seems like there's a difference between something like TRT(I believe it's just testosterone) for middle aged-old guys with low test levels to gain their lives back and bodybuilders who are already jacked but then want to take the risk of drugs to get even more jacked.

Now I think the former is a no brainer to do, the latter to me is understandable if guys don't want to take the risk even if steroids is less harmful than something like alcohol.

[Clint Barton]

What's considered "normal" today was considered low in past generations. A total T level of 264 ng/Dl is considered normal today. There's a war against men, and testosterone is a big part of being a man.

^^ never mentioned the pros of well being, better cardiovascular health, better sexual function, increased confidence and aggression.

[Cambodian Creamsicle]

Increased well being and confidence aren't a given. Increased aggression could be a con. Never heard of steroids being good for your heart. Better sexual function isn't necessary if your cock works good naturally, as it should. And if it doesn't there's horny goat weed, arginine, zinc etc. Don't need steroids to improve blood flow to your wang.

[Fortis]

(09-06-2017 07:08 AM)Clint Barton Wrote:  

What's considered "normal" today was considered low in past generations. A total T level of 264 ng/Dl is considered normal today. There's a war against men, and testosterone is a big part of being a man.

^^ never mentioned the pros of well being, better cardiovascular health, better sexual function, increased confidence and aggression.

you're wasting your time trying to explain it, Clint. Guys who aren't on TRT and don't have symptoms of low-t cannot possibly conceive of how good it makes you feel. No amount of zinc, horny goat weed, brazil nuts, heavy squats and gorilla mindset exercises can give you the happy exuberance you feel on TRT. I won't bother trying to explain it since I've been trying to in several different threads and my explanations appear to be insufficient and fall on deaf ears.

All guys see is steroids = bigger size.

They are completely unable to grasp how profound the mental benefits of TRT truly are. I would say the cognitive benefits are far more profound and cooler than putting on muscle.

This is a pretty good example of how life feels pre vs post TRT.

[Cambodian Creamsicle]

^ you're talking about something unrelated to the topic of this thread. You're talking about hormone replacement therapy for someone with abnormally low testosterone.

The topic of this thread was, why not take steroids and look like the guy in the pic? By steroids he's referring to anabolics like tren, anavar, dbol etc etc, not just standard testosterone.

[rudebwoy]

(09-06-2017 06:41 AM)Cambodian Creamsicle Wrote:  

Cons

- constant injections
- potential health risks
- anxiety surrounding the long term effects it's having on your body
- constant blood work
- taking other drugs to reduce the negative effects of the steroids
- increased estrogen
- balls shrinking
- potential for your natural T to not go back to normal
- acne
- balding
- potential psychological issues like becoming obsessed / addicted with getting bigger

Pros

- increased size and strength

So if you have normal T levels, aren't concerned with looking like O'Hearn, not struggling with women and you're not competing in professional sports, again, the better question is why take them?

Sorry bro, I have done numerous cycles and never experienced the cons you talk about.

Obviously, you have never tried it.

Most guys aren't going to look like O.Hearn or even the guy pictured in the OP thread. Those looks aren't achieved easily overnight.

The sexual pro's are obvious to those who have tried it and the non-verbal reaction from women is addictive.

Everything has minor side-effects, average American eats junk food daily and look how they look.

[Cambodian Creamsicle]

Why do the gear advocates always say, "ya but look how unhealthy other people be are" as a means of justifying steroid use? Some fatass is unhealthy, yes. That doesn't make steroids healthy.

As for most of the cons I listed, they're not up for debate. You do have to inject, have blood work done, take other drugs to combat side-effects, your estrogen does increase, there are health risks.

Sorry bro, saying you didn't go bald doesn't negate all the cons.

[MikeS]

(09-05-2017 07:15 PM)DamienCasanova Wrote:  

(09-02-2017 02:29 PM)Sidney Crosby Wrote:  

I wouldn't even want to look like that guy.

When I'm 30+, I'd consider something like TRT if I was on the low side.

Legit question, What are the reasons not to do TRT?

I'm 40 and I don't think I would consider using TRT until I legitimately start feeling effects of low T (it's been my impression that quite a lot of TRT proponents in their 30s or 40s are probably in the average range but, understandably, want a boost towards the natural max range. It's not like testosterone for the average man drops like a rock once you hit middle age, graphs I've seen of the decline suggests it's something like 1% per year after 30).

My main reason - aside from having no idea yet how easy it may or may not be to get it prescribed here in Europe (lots of the first hand experiences appear to be from Americans, although I might have overlooked something there?) - is that from what I understand you should expect your natural testosterone production to be shut down for good.
It's not guaranteed that you will be able to get off TRT - if for some reason that became necessary - and end up back at your previous low to mid T.

So you are then essentially in need of testosterone from cooperative doctors and pharmacies for the rest of your life - which if you're only 30 or 40 is, statistically, quite a long time.
What if you travel a lot, or move to another country (as I have done once and could very well do again in the future one or several times)? Are you guaranteed to find the needed cooperation everywhere you go?
If not, then I guess there's always the black market, but that's most definitely not something I would be eager to delve into for years or decades of my life for crucial medicine.

[Fortis]

(09-06-2017 09:39 AM)MikeS Wrote:  

(09-05-2017 07:15 PM)DamienCasanova Wrote:  

(09-02-2017 02:29 PM)Sidney Crosby Wrote:  

I wouldn't even want to look like that guy.

When I'm 30+, I'd consider something like TRT if I was on the low side.

Legit question, What are the reasons not to do TRT?

I'm 40 and I don't think I would consider using TRT until I legitimately start feeling effects of low T (it's been my impression that quite a lot of TRT proponents in their 30s or 40s are probably in the average range but, understandably, want a boost towards the natural max range. It's not like testosterone for the average man drops like a rock once you hit middle age, graphs I've seen of the decline suggests it's something like 1% per year after 30).

My main reason - aside from having no idea yet how easy it may or may not be to get it prescribed here in Europe (lots of the first hand experiences appear to be from Americans, although I might have overlooked something there?) - is that from what I understand you should expect your natural testosterone production to be shut down for good.
It's not guaranteed that you will be able to get off TRT - if for some reason that became necessary - and end up back at your previous low to mid T.

So you are then essentially in need of testosterone from cooperative doctors and pharmacies for the rest of your life - which if you're only 30 or 40 is, statistically, quite a long time.
What if you travel a lot, or move to another country (as I have done once and could very well do again in the future one or several times)? Are you guaranteed to find the needed cooperation everywhere you go?
If not, then I guess there's always the black market, but that's most definitely not something I would be eager to delve into for years or decades of my life for crucial medicine.

Thank you for a reasonable, measured reply on a clearly contentious topic.

[rudebwoy]

^^^Ok, so I will bite to your stupid claims.

I took mostly Sustanon 250, do your "research" and you will see it is a combination of different Testosterone compounds. Why I liked taking this particular steroid is because you only have to poke once a week.

Health risk is increased blood pressure, which is a concern for me.
I don't have any other concerns about my long term health, I go to the doctor and I get checked annually. Yes, that includes the finger up the ass because I am off that age.
I know my body, last time my uric acid was high and I know that was due to certain foods I was eating.
I don't need to get constant blood work, I get it done with my annual check up.

I don't take any other drugs that includes clomid at the end of a cycle. I don't mix Test with anything else, my first cycle I mixed with Trenbolone and I was a monster (physically & mentally).

My balls don't shrink, in fact my dick gets bigger and I shoot like a hose.

My natural T always goes back to it's normal level.

I don't get acne and I don't have issues about getting bigger.

For me it is a turbo boost and I get a little ego boost from the visible results.

It has been stated on different threads, but again I will repeat it.
Once you get to the 200llb mark and it is visible you workout, women will touch you more. I have had strippers grab me like a piece of meat, even when I was covered up.
I have had Asian girls grab my ass in a club while I walked by.

Interactions with females just moves much smoother, don't get it twisted they aren't grabbing my cock and blowing me on the spot.

Now for those who are against it, that is your right and your choice.

Being small or skinny isn't an option, having a belly isn't attractive and looking like you can't handle yourself in a fight isn't cool.

The kind of women I like, tend to like dudes with good builds.

[Ringo]

Personally, I've never done any.

I still have plenty of room to grow naturally - most people never reach their natural potential because it takes years of regular training and dieting. When I get there I can make an educated decision.

My flatmate is very into bodybuilding and he has done a couple of cycles and studied the subject deeply. Because you have to do it kind of on your own or with the help of guys who are in the know, there's a lot of reading and studying to do.

The whole hormonal system is very sensitive and can easily be put out of whack because by fidgeting with one variant others can try to compensate. It requires a ton of research to be optimized.

I can't see myself just poking some substances into my body blindly. I would want to be very meticulous and that takes more effort and resources than I would be willing to dispense with.

I can't see myself using a cocktail of steroids at any point down the road. But a low dosage of testosterone seems like a good option even if my levels aren't necessarily low.

Physical attributes aside, I'm very interested in the mental clearness and extra energy that is associated with it. Maybe in a few years.