[BlueMark]

I met a FOB Asian girl at an art exhibit this weekend. We seemed to hit it off well. I took her to a few places around the city over the evening. I did some physical escalation such as holding hands and putting my arms around her at appropriate times. Even went in for the kiss at once point but she turned it down.

I then took her back to my apartment. We had a drink and watched a scary TV show, during which we were in full body contact on the couch. She was holding onto me tightly during the scary parts.

When the show was over, we started making out. She began grinding herself against me while I ran my hands over her skin under her clothes. I then carried her onto the bed. This was all over a period of about 5 minutes. Then she asked me to hold her. Thinking that she wanted a bit of comfort, I obliged, while taking the opportunity to unclasp her bra.

Suddenly, she seemed to have second thoughts. She said she couldn't do this and apologized. We got back onto the couch, where I attempted some more escalation, but I was kind of taken aback and not sure what was going on. I offered to let her stay the night but she said she had to go home. She asked me to walk her to the subway station. Seeing that this was late at night and she was in an unfamiliar neighborhood, I took her to the station.

This was my first time moving so quickly from a cold approach. I would like some input on how I could have done differently. I do wonder if I had lost too much frame near the end:
- Should I have disregarded her on the bed and kept escalating?
- Should I have ignored her when she asked to be held?
- Was it a bad idea to walk her to the station?

[RatInTheWoods]

Not all women are sluts who will do anal on the first date.

Some are "three date Kates" where they need to feel comfortable with you before they let you inside their body.

This is evolutionary behavior, after all sex for you is an emission of body fluids, for her it is a possible 20 years of child rearing.

Ask her out again, the bang will come.

[BlueMark]

I should have waited for a response from someone here before jumping the gun. It was a massive failure.

First possible mistake: I asked her for a second date the day after. Should probably have waited a few days.

Second possible mistake: I suggested that we cook dinner together, and suggested her place. She didn't respond very well at all, saying that she felt weird meeting in a home.

Then when I suggested a public place, she flat out told me that she didn't want to see me again. This was one of the strongest rejections I've received, and really caught me by surprise since I asked her if she got home safely that night and she responded with a smiley.

Possible lessons to be learned:
- Don't contact her the day after at this early stage, especially I have lingering uncertainties like what I posted earlier. Waiting for an answer would have helped me keep my cool.
- Second date should have been somewhere away from home, like a park or museum, to contrast with first date.
- Probably could have texted more back and forth before asking for a second date, to make her laugh and build comfort. That seemed to be the missing ingredient.

Am I correct?

[HankMoody]

(08-20-2017 06:38 PM)BlueMark Wrote:  

I should have waited for a response from someone here before jumping the gun. It was a massive failure.

First possible mistake: I asked her for a second date the day after. Should probably have waited a few days.

Second possible mistake: I suggested that we cook dinner together, and suggested her place. She didn't respond very well at all, saying that she felt weird meeting in a home.

Then when I suggested a public place, she flat out told me that she didn't want to see me again. This was one of the strongest rejections I've received, and really caught me by surprise since I asked her if she got home safely that night and she responded with a smiley.

Possible lessons to be learned:
- Don't contact her the day after at this early stage, especially I have lingering uncertainties like what I posted earlier. Waiting for an answer would have helped me keep my cool.
- Second date should have been somewhere away from home, like a park or museum, to contrast with first date.
- Probably could have texted more back and forth before asking for a second date, to make her laugh and build comfort. That seemed to be the missing ingredient.

Am I correct?

Eh, I disagree...

Second date idea was fine.

When you suggested dinner at her house and she got weird, you should have laughed it off and been like "dont worry, im not gonna burn down the house, and if i do my buddy is a firefighter" or "but i have this entire carton of kraft mac and cheese and i dunno what to do with it. do you seriously expect me to eat 30 boxes of mac and cheese by myself?"

You fucked up by breaking frame and then suggesting a public place. Next time keep frame, and let her suggest a public place. Or, if she got weird about the public place, just put her on ice and don't respond.

Breaking frame so easily is where things went wrong.

What you also could have done is suggested a second date at a restaurant, told her you're calling her an Uber, and then have it bring her to your house while you're getting ready. Even easier.

How long you wait for a second date doesn't really matter as long as you're not like straight up "Hi, I want to bang NOW NOW NOW!" In my opinion, two days gives her too much time to analyze the interaction. Strike while the iron is hot.

You're in that between stage of having some game, but reverting back to beta at any hint of adversity.

You're also giving her complete control of the interaction. "I should have done blah blah blah." There are no magic words or sequence of events you can do to generate attraction, other than hold your frame.

Do whatever you want, and if your frame is on, she'll go with it.

PS - if you want to try and salvage it, I'd go like this...

"I don't want to see you again."
"ha, i bet. Indian Place tomorrow at 7:45pm it is."
"I really don't know..."
"i'll pick you up on my magic carpet. dress like red jasmine, not blue jasmine. red jasmine is way hotter."

I can't guarantee you it will work, but always play it funny and cocky. Right now you're practically apologizing to her for finding her attractive.

[Smooth Operator]

(08-20-2017 12:40 PM)BlueMark Wrote:  

Then she asked me to hold her. Thinking that she wanted a bit of comfort, I obliged, while taking the opportunity to unclasp her bra.

If she stopped the escalation at that point, you should have stopped the escalation as well for a bit, and not have unclasped her bra.

(08-20-2017 12:40 PM)BlueMark Wrote:  

Suddenly, she seemed to have second thoughts. She said she couldn't do this and apologized. We got back onto the couch, where I attempted some more escalation, but I was kind of taken aback and not sure what was going on.

How much time was there between her telling she couldn't do this, and you escalating again? Seems you started escalating again too quickly.

It seems you came of as too needy in your escalation attempts, and lost it there, not later in your interaction.

[BlueMark]

(08-20-2017 07:22 PM)Smooth Operator Wrote:  

How much time was there between her telling she couldn't do this, and you escalating again? Seems you started escalating again too quickly.

It seems you came of as too needy in your escalation attempts, and lost it there, not later in your interaction.

Maybe a minute or two. In retrospect we probably could have watched some more TV.

[Pointer]

Oh man, I went through this at least half a dozen times...had blue balls the size of watermelons...

I can tell you exactly what went wrong: you went too fast.
Since you said you met her this weekend that means you took her home the same day she refused to kiss. That was the biggest mistake. You skipped the comfort stage and went straight for the bang when the signs were clear that she's not a slut. The situation is unlikely to be salvaged because plausible deniability went out the window and meeting you again will put her in an awkward position. Asking for a second date at your place is like saying: let's bang OK ? Now she thinks you're desperate.

I would stop texting for a couple weeks then try to restart but don't put your hopes up.

The surest way to bang any girl is to go on a few dates before inviting her over. It can be time consuming but it never fails.
Alternatively, when she told you to hold her, you should've said that you need to wake up early tomorrow and suggest that you'll call a cab or walk her to the station. It shows that you are in control of the situation and it's a natural ending to a nice evening. It also makes her chase you if she wants to bang. Of course, you don't go asking for a second date at your place immediately, I think this is quite obvious.

[Windom Earle]

I'll offer a contrary view - you didn't escalate hard enough and you let her control the frame by obliging her when she said she couldn't go through with it. Girls will make any excuse to make you think that sex shouldn't happen, it's your job as a man to take charge and make it happen - within reason of course.

The reason she is now rejecting you is because you didn't fuck her, simple as that.

[Pointer]

That's a risky move and most likely won't end up in a bang. If she was in a rush to move back from the bed to the couch then it's clear she wasn't that wet in the first place. Sending her home is a safe bet, the possibility of meeting her again and taking things further is much higher than overcoming last minute resistance. Best case scenario she has second thoughts and asks if she can stay

[BlueMark]

(08-20-2017 07:46 PM)Pointer Wrote:  

I can tell you exactly what went wrong: you went too fast.
Since you said you met her this weekend that means you took her home the same day she refused to kiss. That was the biggest mistake. You skipped the comfort stage and went straight for the bang when the signs were clear that she's not a slut. The situation is unlikely to be salvaged because plausible deniability went out the window and meeting you again will put her in an awkward position. Asking for a second date at your place is like saying: let's bang OK ? Now she thinks you're desperate.

When she refused the kiss, she said "not now." At home, I teased her a bit by appearing to go for the kiss and then breaking it off. At the end, she basically initiated the kiss.

[BlueMark]

Thinking it over some more, I think I could have better handled the request to hold her, by doing either one of the following:
- Ignoring her, and continuing to escalate.
- Agree and amplify by carrying her back to the couch and holding her there, hence still taking the lead.

[PapayaTapper]

(08-20-2017 08:16 PM)BlueMark Wrote:  

(08-20-2017 07:46 PM)Pointer Wrote:  

I can tell you exactly what went wrong: you went too fast.
Since you said you met her this weekend that means you took her home the same day she refused to kiss. That was the biggest mistake. You skipped the comfort stage and went straight for the bang when the signs were clear that she's not a slut. The situation is unlikely to be salvaged because plausible deniability went out the window and meeting you again will put her in an awkward position. Asking for a second date at your place is like saying: let's bang OK ? Now she thinks you're desperate.

When she refused the kiss, she said "not now." At home, I teased her a bit by appearing to go for the kiss and then breaking it off. At the end, she basically initiated the kiss.

(08-20-2017 08:15 PM)Pointer Wrote:  

That's a risky move and most likely won't end up in a bang. If she was in a rush to move back from the bed to the couch then it's clear she wasn't that wet in the first place. Sending her home is a safe bet, the possibility of meeting her again and taking things further is much higher than overcoming last minute resistance. Best case scenario she has second thoughts and asks if she can stay

All due respect but this is wrong

BlueMark

You did a great job of building comfort else a FOB Asian wouldn't have been alone and making out with you.

It was actually the "attraction to arousal" sequence that was broken and where it went wrong and her anti-slut defense (ASD) kicked in.

If you dont seamlessly transition her attraction into arousal this is likely to happen...especially with nicer, less experienced, or virgin girls.

One tried true method of getting past this is to stop trying to get into her panties and let her get into yours (boxer briefs). A girl can stop you from taking off her pants but she cant (and wont) stop you from taking your off

Next time your chilling watching a movie strip down to your shorts. Do it like its no big thing and they wont object. Now when youre making out with a chick grab her hand and put it on your stiffy

If a girl knows how turned on she's making you, by feeling your boner it will ratchet up her arousal. This puts millions of years of biological evolution to work for you and you can make her own arousal overcome any ASD. At the very least you should get a hand job, or blowjob

Remember sometimes full frontal attack isnt the way to go. A flanking "maneuver" should be in your tactical arsenal

[BlueMark]

(08-20-2017 09:08 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  

BlueMark

You did a great job of building comfort else a FOB Asian wouldn't have been alone and making out with you.

Thanks PapayaTapper. I am actually Asian American (though of different ethnicity), so building comfort was probably an easier deal than for most. But I'll keep in mind that tactical maneuver of yours for a future date.

[Vill@in]

(08-20-2017 09:08 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  

One tried true method of getting past this is to stop trying to get into her panties and let her get into yours (boxer briefs). A girl can stop you from taking off her pants but she cant (and wont) stop you from taking your off

Damn, I like this. I'm trying this next time I'm in this situation. "Just getting comfortable, don't mind me".

[RatInTheWoods]

Three date kates will get freaked out if you push too hard, however you do it.

In her frame, shes a "nice girl", and there is a progression of events that has to happen to her timescale or else she is uncomfortable.

If you pushed too hard or she went to far, she will want to bail on the relationship before it goes on, and "reset" the timeline with a new date candidate.

Of course she would probably do anal for tom cruise on the first date, so the caveat is of course based on your SMV relative to hers.

In this case you needed stick to her timeline. This is very common, and probably a "normal" dating progression

[PapayaTapper]

(08-21-2017 05:28 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

Three date kates will get freaked out if you push too hard, however you do it.

In her frame, shes a "nice girl", and there is a progression of events that has to happen to her timescale or else she is uncomfortable.

If you pushed too hard or she went to far, she will want to bail on the relationship before it goes on, and "reset" the timeline with a new date candidate.

Of course she would probably do anal for tom cruise on the first date, so the caveat is of course based on your SMV relative to hers.

In this case you needed stick to her timeline. This is very common, and probably a "normal" dating progression

Sure...Sometimes thats true and no one gets it right every time (unless as you say youre Zac Efron or the like).

But if I had a nickel for every time Ive heard "OMG...I cant believe we went so fast...I NEVER do that"....right after I glazed a girl's face...Id have a sock drawer full of nickels

[Suits]

(08-20-2017 12:40 PM)BlueMark Wrote:  

This was my first time moving so quickly from a cold approach. I would like some input on how I could have done differently. I do wonder if I had lost too much frame near the end:
- Should I have disregarded her on the bed and kept escalating?
- Should I have ignored her when she asked to be held?
- Was it a bad idea to walk her to the station?

These are the right questions to be asking, but until you notice a pattern (with multiple girls responding in the same way to certain game decision), there's no reason to conclude that this girl would have had sex with you had you simply done different things.

This approach was an improvement over previous escalations (faster), so keep gaming new girls and get a little more data before you start analyzing your mistakes.

No point in changing your whole game strategy based on a girl who isn't necessarily the norm.

It's best to determine a sticking point (where multiple girls start to respond negatively to a certain game technique or approach) because attempting to make changes to your game.

(08-20-2017 09:16 PM)BlueMark Wrote:  

(08-20-2017 09:08 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  

BlueMark

You did a great job of building comfort else a FOB Asian wouldn't have been alone and making out with you.

Thanks PapayaTapper. I am actually Asian American (though of different ethnicity), so building comfort was probably an easier deal than for most. But I'll keep in mind that tactical maneuver of yours for a future date.

No, it has nothing to do with you being Asian American. FOB Asians have sex with men of a variety of ethnicities all the time. If anything, I could be argued that a non-Asian would have an easier time building comfort, because they are a new and wild experience and a FOB girl can write it off as a one time thing easier.

[jselysianeagle]

Basically what RatInTheWoods + Pointer said. I've had a number of girls this year alone with whom things fizzled out after make outs + fooling around came very quickly. It's easy to start thinkin "this cat's in the bag", but my hunch is that in cases like this, the girl reconsiders and starts to feel slutty; backing out entirely is her way of redeeming herself (in her own eyes).

It's hard to always calibrate correctly on the first meet, so my strategy (and I'm no expert in these matters myself) going forwards is to attempt no more than a makeout on the first meet. If you're too aggressive, you'll end up chasing her away; contrariwise if you're too mellow she might be turned off.

I've dated some FOB Asians in the past myself and this seemed to work with them.

[heavy]

Great succinct write up, first off. Excellent. Also, I think you did fine, I'm just saying what comes to mind.

I concur with what the other dudes are saying. You're just refining your approach, and your attitude about this interaction means this will help you going forward. You're noting potential miss-steps, but not beating yourself up for it. We, just as you, don't know exactly where you may have slipped up, or she may have simply been on her period, but my takeaway was...

You were thinking "how can I fuck this girl" instead of thinking "her and I are going to have some fun" with teasing and push pull interaction and not having a goal. Put another way, *she felt* your goal oriented escalation. Just my best guess.

Why do I think she felt that?
Get her to come over --> watch some TV on the couch --> touching --> making out --> under clothes touching --> move to bed --> take off clothes --> sex

See how goal oriented and scripted that feels? She felt that. She felt high school steps toward sex 101. Don't get me wrong, I did that when I was 32 years old. We all do it. That's how I can spot it. It's when we're thinking about having sex with her instead of teasing her like cat and mouse and having fun with it.

Here are some push pull things (push pull is EVERYTHING)...again it's more about the mindset than any of these tactics specifically:
- As she steps into your apartment, you kiss her, but instantly but slowly pull back

- During the scary show, alternate between teasing her fear poking her boob or side, and comforting/sexually holding her and kissing (this is the essence of push pull)

- Complement her on her tits (before or after they leave the bra). She'll appreciate your reverence for her body. (same thing for her ass). There's something push pull about simply stating that. It's powerful. It's also a neg "I didn't notice how amazing they were until now". Plus it's brutal honesty.

- Use a slightly indifferent tone when moving back to couch. "Oh, I thought we were having fun." Then make yourself another drink, indifferent, showing her you're simply enjoying a nice late evening...then back to see if she wants to make out and rub some more.

- Finally, just have fun. You're entertaining yourself. It's a bit like playing a game, but the goal isn't to win, it's to have fun. And when you're debriefing, remember, your goal was to have fun, not win. If you had to choose between not interacting with this chick or have the night you had, you'd obviously choose the former.

[BlueMark]

(08-22-2017 12:57 PM)heavy Wrote:  

You were thinking "how can I fuck this girl" instead of thinking "her and I are going to have some fun" with teasing and push pull interaction and not having a goal. Put another way, *she felt* your goal oriented escalation. Just my best guess.

Why do I think she felt that?
Get her to come over --> watch some TV on the couch --> touching --> making out --> under clothes touching --> move to bed --> take off clothes --> sex

See how goal oriented and scripted that feels? She felt that. She felt high school steps toward sex 101. Don't get me wrong, I did that when I was 32 years old. We all do it. That's how I can spot it. It's when we're thinking about having sex with her instead of teasing her like cat and mouse and having fun with it.

A variety of responses from people, but this one resonates with me. I think that might have been part of it. I had a few more texts back and forth and she seemed very upset that I suggested her place. I'd say I was pretty uncalibrated and came off as too aggressive overall. Probably made her feel like I saw her as a slut. Also felt like I jumped the gun when contacting her the next day. Probably should have waited another day for the effects of a poor night of sleep due to alcohol to wear off.

Lots of takeaways from this experience and people's feedback, for future dates:
- I'm on the right track in terms of date game (instadate, building attraction, comfort, etc)
- Focus more on connecting with her and avoid feeling like we're just going through the motions.
- Play it safer when we get home. Push/pull to keep things flowing but focus more on building comfort rather than pushing for sex.
- Wait a few days before contacting her, to think it through and even post another field report here.

[PapayaTapper]

(08-22-2017 07:31 PM)BlueMark Wrote:  

(08-22-2017 12:57 PM)heavy Wrote:  

You were thinking "how can I fuck this girl" instead of thinking "her and I are going to have some fun" with teasing and push pull interaction and not having a goal. Put another way, *she felt* your goal oriented escalation. Just my best guess.

Why do I think she felt that?
Get her to come over --> watch some TV on the couch --> touching --> making out --> under clothes touching --> move to bed --> take off clothes --> sex

See how goal oriented and scripted that feels? She felt that. She felt high school steps toward sex 101. Don't get me wrong, I did that when I was 32 years old. We all do it. That's how I can spot it. It's when we're thinking about having sex with her instead of teasing her like cat and mouse and having fun with it.

A variety of responses from people, but this one resonates with me. I think that might have been part of it. I had a few more texts back and forth and she seemed very upset that I suggested her place. I'd say I was pretty uncalibrated and came off as too aggressive overall. Probably made her feel like I saw her as a slut. Also felt like I jumped the gun when contacting her the next day. Probably should have waited another day for the effects of a poor night of sleep due to alcohol to wear off.

Lots of takeaways from this experience and people's feedback, for future dates:
- I'm on the right track in terms of date game (instadate, building attraction, comfort, etc)
- Focus more on connecting with her and avoid feeling like we're just going through the motions.
- Play it safer when we get home. Push/pull to keep things flowing but focus more on building comfort rather than pushing for sex.
- Wait a few days before contacting her, to think it through and even post another field report here.

Great that youre self evaluating and honest with yourself. Keep work other girls. Like anything else: practice makes perfect

As far as this girl:

Counter intuitively being too aggressive is better / easier to recover from than not aggressive enough. Id wait a few days and just restart her with a text

My favorite is "Hey I had a dream about you last night"

Girl's affinity for magical thinking + curiosity = They cant help but respond

Its almost always some form of "Oh really? What did you dream?"

Game on

[BlueMark]

(08-22-2017 11:36 PM)PapayaTapper Wrote:  

Great that youre self evaluating and honest with yourself. Keep work other girls. Like anything else: practice makes perfect

It's tougher than I thought it would be. I am spending a lot of time with that evaluation/analysis/introspection after each interaction, thinking how I could have done better. It makes me aware of my own shortcomings in a way that nothing else in my life does. I try to tell myself that I'm going to avoid repeating the same mistakes next time, but the hard part is not knowing when the next time will be. It feels like a leap of faith to decide to continue rather than throwing in the towel.

If it's any sign of progress, I've been doing about 3-5 approaches and meeting 1-2 prospects who seemed interested, each week for the past few weeks ever since I started going out and gaming. Some interactions from that progression, and what I learned:

- Asked department store employee who was advertising some facial cream for men to try it out on me, and then got her number. Asked her out over text but she politely turned it down with "boyfriend". LESSON: Chat more than the 5 min we had, and build more connection.

- Made out with a girl I met at a bar. (First time I did that in front of so many people) She had to leave but she suggested meeting the next night, but it was also in a bar and with her friend. I didn't escalate fast enough the second night; I hesitated because I wasn't sure what to do in front of so many people and her friend, and I was too tired to catch her hints to escalate until I thought about it afterwards. LESSON: Don't be a pussy, escalate in public if that's the only option.

- Got number from girl at a meetup event, who seemed interested. Texted her a bit and invited her to go to a bar later. She said she didn't want to go home late but suggested that we go the next weekend. When I texted her a few days later to go to a bar during the week, she responded with "boyfriend". Should have just said we'll take an Uber, or she can stay at my place. LESSON: When she's interested, don't wait until the next weekend.

- Saw a girl glance my way while we were walking home after work. Opened her and chatted with her on the subway. She got off at one station, so I got out and talked a little bit. I was trying to think of an instadate at this point, but my mind blanked out and I didn't know any places in the area. So I left with her number, my first ever from a street approach. Texted once but she didn't seem as receptive as in person. Thinking about it afterwards, I thought of one place for instadate, or should have just said let's go get something to eat and look up a cafe nearby. LESSON: Go for instadate. Have an instadate in my mental quiver ready to fire.

- And the following weekend, I met the girl in this thread, hit it off, and went for the instadate. By far the biggest learning experience.

Quote:

As far as this girl:

Counter intuitively being too aggressive is better / easier to recover from than not aggressive enough. Id wait a few days and just restart her with a text

My favorite is "Hey I had a dream about you last night"

Girl's affinity for magical thinking + curiosity = They cant help but respond

Its almost always some form of "Oh really? What did you dream?"

Game on

I told her to meet me somewhere for dinner (a la Hank Moody's suggestion) but she didn't respond. Not sure if she will respond in a few days, but I'll give it a shot.

[Suits]

(08-23-2017 12:14 AM)BlueMark Wrote:  

I told her to meet me somewhere for dinner (a la Hank Moody's suggestion) but she didn't respond. Not sure if she will respond in a few days, but I'll give it a shot.

She isn't the only woman in the world.

Stop posting here for a few days and go approach women until you have some fresh numbers to text.

[Mig Picante]

(08-20-2017 06:38 PM)BlueMark Wrote:  

Possible lessons to be learned:
- Don't contact her the day after at this early stage, especially I have lingering uncertainties like what I posted earlier. Waiting for an answer would have helped me keep my cool.
- Second date should have been somewhere away from home, like a park or museum, to contrast with first date.

Yeah i think you "scared the cat" by following up too soon. Also displayed neediness.

On the date, yeah suggesting a date at her own house is not much fun for her. You don't have to do too much but it's overfamiliar and she wouldn't be able to leave if things went bad. At your own place might have been better. Neutral ground and out and about would still be better IMO.