[zatara]

(06-29-2017 09:36 AM)Skank_Hunt Wrote:  

Who says I have given up? On the Anglosphere, perhaps; it doesn't offer a good enough ROI for me, nor does it for countless other men who choose to relocate. That's not giving up; it's smart. If you get a 10x better ROI on your efforts to improve yourself in another place/places, then it makes sense to seek to travel to those places. If I can't stand entitled social media addicted 49ers, fatties, and average girls, and there are places which provide the opposite, it makes sense to go there. Past a certain point, if you go out too many times, you can definitely become jaded, and even if you get a "notch" going out becomes a form of self-flagellation. If you find my writing a bit too much, check out some of Roosh's most popular articles. I am definitely pissed off about a lot of things from social media addiction to general political and social changes that have caused such rapid decline in quantity and quality of women in the US. I understand the perspective of "adapt", but again, past a certain point even the best and most innovative adaptations still produce poor ROI. You may go out in the Anglosphere and have a blast - more power to you. I personally don't find it enjoyable.

Your reasons for male improvement are not wrong: men are more into fitness and style than they used to be today than a few decades ago. You can dispute the reasons as to why that is, but one of them is the "arms race", where in real life (not online) men improve themselves even further to compete with the other men chasing even more scarce pleasant, attractive girls. Inflated attitudes due to social media aside, obesity itself essentially eliminates the large part of the eligible pool of young women, before you even begin to do anything to improve yourself as a man.

As for the "alternative" perspective of social media and dating apps making things "easier", that is simply not true. Attention whoring and inflated egos etc. and their effects are things that no longer need to be explained on here. I understand what you are trying to say but it just does not mesh with reality at this time. Men are overly reliant on online dating, but thirst in general has increased exponentially. Whether in real life or online, women will be approached. Add to this the fact that once women bang male model looking guys, and get repeatedly pumped and dumped by them (the top <1% of the guys on these apps), women will be more used, more jaded, and more expectant of similar quality at a club or bar. By the time the average guy approaches her, she has already been fucked by a number of male "9s" from Tinder, so what are you going to do? "Adapt" when she sees you are nowhere near a "9"? How do you adapt to "No" girls? In most cases, you just can't. No amount of game will change an unwaveringly unreceptive girl's demeanor.

So you "self-improve": you go to the gym and spend huge amounts of time, money and effort to get absolutely shredded, but your genetics have a limit; still only a small fraction of men can become "9". Your time, money and effort would have been better spent working hard, getting your shit in order, and living in places outside the Anglosphere where increasingly your average 6 demands a male 9 as a BF because she managed to get fucked by a few of them on Tinder. Doing this instead of entertaining the low quality women in the Anglosphere is an "adaptation" that can actually provide good ROI. If you want to stay put then no one else can convince you otherwise, but to say that it's become "easier" to approach and get with more and better quality girls as a result of Tinder/social media etc. is laughable and worse, it can mislead members who happen to read your post and actually believe it.

I've been going to clubs for almost 15 years, and it has 100% gotten easier to approach due to fewer males engaging in it. The males who do now are higher quality, yes (aforementioned fashion/fitness), but there are far fewer of them on average doing it. 15 years ago to get laid a man had to approach a woman in real life, now he can go on Tinder instead. And its much easier to do the latter for most men. This has had a huge effect in reducing the number of men who're out there engaging in approaches - making women much more receptive to those who do so.

Location arbitrage to improve your value is something most people on this forum, including myself, readily argue in favour of. But there are 230million women in the Anglosphere. If you can't find quality women in any of them, then you are definitely 'giving up'. Is it harder to find a good woman in NYC than Kiev? Absolutely. But is it impossible? No. Talking in terms of 'ROI' is pointless, if someone can easily movie their family and professional life to Bangkok to help them chase women then they absolutely should do so. But writing off the country you live in, because its "too hard", or you'd get a better ROI elsewhere is an excuse. Either move to that other country or get out there and approach women in your own.

You talk about self improvement as if its some mammoth task, that requires "huge amounts of time, money and effort". It doesn't. If a man does 5 hours of weightlifting a week for 18 months they'll be in better physical shape than 90% of their competitors. And they'll also be far fitter, healthier and happier in general - aside from any attention from women. Investing in a new, fashionable wardrobe takes a week and $1000 - hardly a high bar to entry. A fashionable man whos also in better physical shape than 90% of his competitors will get women anywhere in the world, presuming hes not socially retarded or facially disfigured.

[rudebwoy]

[/quote]

I've been going to clubs for almost 15 years, and it has 100% gotten easier to approach due to fewer males engaging in it. The males who do now are higher quality, yes (aforementioned fashion/fitness), but there are far fewer of them on average doing it. 15 years ago to get laid a man had to approach a woman in real life, now he can go on Tinder instead. And its much easier to do the latter for most men. This has had a huge effect in reducing the number of men who're out there engaging in approaches - making women much more receptive to those who do so.

Location arbitrage to improve your value is something most people on this forum, including myself, readily argue in favour of. But there are 230million women in the Anglosphere. If you can't find quality women in any of them, then you are definitely 'giving up'. Is it harder to find a good woman in NYC than Kiev? Absolutely. But is it impossible? No. Talking in terms of 'ROI' is pointless, if someone can easily movie their family and professional life to Bangkok to help them chase women then they absolutely should do so. But writing off the country you live in, because its "too hard", or you'd get a better ROI elsewhere is an excuse. Either move to that other country or get out there and approach women in your own.

You talk about self improvement as if its some mammoth task, that requires "huge amounts of time, money and effort". It doesn't. If a man does 5 hours of weightlifting a week for 18 months they'll be in better physical shape than 90% of their competitors. And they'll also be far fitter, healthier and happier in general - aside from any attention from women. Investing in a new, fashionable wardrobe takes a week and $1000 - hardly a high bar to entry. A fashionable man whos also in better physical shape than 90% of his competitors will get women anywhere in the world, presuming hes not socially retarded or facially disfigured.
[/quote]



#realtalk.

Close down Tinder, improve yourself and go out and take your lumps like a man, not a boy.

[chitown72]

(06-29-2017 01:07 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

Do you guys actually know guys that are a 9 or is this another "theory"?

I know a guy who was a former model, he married a model. He didn't even engage an average looking girl in public and he certainly didn't need online dating.

I've known a few of them in my life but here's the thing. There are two types:

One is natural(good genes, looks, minimum maintenance, upkeep, etc). These are the true guys that can act like themselves, eat whatever they want(within reason), excercise moderately, etc.

These are the guys that really are cool to hang out with because they're usually themselves. These are the ones that also marry the same or often less of a woman in the looks department as it's clearly something they were born with and not as important to them.

Two are the wannabes or ones that constantly have to make a big effort to look the way they do. I can't tell you how many gals that I've dated tell me they'd rather settle down with a regular avg guy than a high maintenance model type. These guys are always complaining about looks, going to the gym all the time, and have a very strict diet. These are the guys that generally want to date someone better looking than them(probably due to insecurities).

I don't consider myself great looking but maybe just slightly above avg and I've had interesting conversations around this. Rather than them asking what I do for a living, one girl has asked if I was on any special diet. That was literally her first question because she just got out of a relationship with a model type that couldn't or wouldn't eat a lot of foods and she was a foodie. Another girl's first question was how many times I go to the gym as she was afraid that may not leave a lot of time to date me during the week. All these questions are there because they've all experienced going out with a model type could be high maintenance and not very rewarding for them personally other than showing off a trophy piece IMO.

[Kid Twist]

Women becoming weak versions of men (the feminist definition by Gavin McInnes) has ruined the bar. I think this is more of the problem. The question will always return to "Is the society creating an atmosphere of maximum attraction, or ruining it"? Clearly it's the latter. I'd say it almost comes down to Roosh's "Do women improve your life anymore"? At least in the West, the answer is overwhelmingly no. If you're thirsty for sex you'll resort to crazy measures, which then progressively ruins the society even more. Once you taste it though, and realize it for what it is (unfulfilling without wholesome people that last and complement you), you'll quickly ask yourself, why would I settle down? Every woman can theoretically give you sex and kids. Can she improve your life? So few do.

Throw that on top of the female age issue, the societal inertia against gaps in age pairings, particular belief systems that one may hold, and just the reality that most people are just average and boy you have a hell of a time making up reasons to be serious with someone. Oh yeah, the law puts the cherry on the top of "Ehh, no thanks."

[ziggystardust]

Just to add, you're a f*cking simp if you're still using tinder RN.

[rudebwoy]

^^^ Those gals are asking you those questions because they are too lazy to workout. Lets be honest, how many girls really love working out.

A foodie is a girl that loves food, which means she will turn into a fat chick at some stage.
I dated one girl who was trying to fatten me up with big meals and Ben n Jerry's ice cream, she dropped the famous line on me about she will let me know when I get fat. I dropped that bitch and a few years later she sent me the "I want a baby" email. Guess what, she was fat.

I had another girl I was dating, hot looking black Barbie doll. She was amazed that I go to the gym 3x a week, I was like is this girl serious. She then confessed that all the women in her family get big, once they have a baby.

Any wealthy guy that is taking out 7s (I hate the ranking btw) for lobster dinners and fancy meals, is a simp. They aren't using Tinder, they are using Seeking Arrangement and Instagram. I would agree that IG has moved the needle a bit, but it a great tool for men to use. (see -Vinny,s excellent thread)

As for Seeking Arrangement, this site has the best girls by far. If you have the freedom, money to splash around and game - then this site is a goldmine. Trust me, some of our peers are having a field day with this site.

What Zatara wrote is exactly what I am seeing, a lot of girls that can't find men to step to them in real time face to face. He is in Europe (UK I believe) and I am in Canada, so the game isn't really all that different.

[Kieran]

To add to what Rudebwoy said you shouldn't be letting a girl screen you to see how you would fit into her lifestyle anyway; it should be the reverse. When girls throw out these hoops for you to jump through, the last thing you want to do is play into her frame and qualify yourself. She's used to being the buyer because that's the market conditions, but game is turning it around on her.

[chitown72]

(06-30-2017 04:09 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

^^^ Those gals are asking you those questions because they are too lazy to workout. Lets be honest, how many girls really love working out.

A foodie is a girl that loves food, which means she will turn into a fat chick at some stage.

That's an assumption on your part but mostly true in a lot of situations. In my case, the girls that asked me this work out and run actually more than me. They just didn't want the working out to interfere with dating in anyway. Heck, some even ask me if I wanna work out with them. That's a fair question though IMO, especially if they had a bad experience with extreme gym rats before.

Just like I wouldn't date a hardcore career minded girl that "may" have time to date between her working 60-70hr weeks. No bueno.

I only date foodies that are slim and I don't plan on LTR's so no worries there. One girl I'm talking to is hardcore foodie but only indulges on the weekends. Weekdays and protein shakes and working out.

(06-30-2017 04:54 PM)Kieran Wrote:  

To add to what Rudebwoy said you shouldn't be letting a girl screen you to see how you would fit into her lifestyle anyway;

It doesn't bother me one bit. I give them honest answers and if they don't like it, they can hit the road. Many more out there.

[PapayaTapper]

(06-29-2017 06:42 PM)Travesty Wrote:  

The bar is definitely raising not sure if because of Tinder and it seems at least for the near term (next 5 years) it will continue to raise.

I had a conversation with the most charismatic, socially savvy guy I have ever known last night.

He himself is too busy to ever be on a forum hanging around. He's red pill from an immigrant family with a massive player dad.

He said a few decades ago you could just be a hard working guy and get a good chick, now you have to be interesting on top of it and stylish.

We both agreed that girls feel no need to make a good impression on new men and the burden is completely on the man.

This guy is super tall, ripped, handsome, extremely fashionable, with a successful $$$ panty-wetter business, not to mention a great musician that plays live gigs for fun on the side.

He feels the pressure to stay a cut above to keep girls in check.

He of course also brought up himself foreign chicks are the way to go for the long haul.

If a guy like that has that mindset you know things are competitive on the field.

[Spartacus]

Not really

[Slayer90s]

Perhaps instead of focusing on the negatives of Tinder, I think it'd be a good idea to brainstorm possible solutions to the application.

The factor that dictates male and female behavior using tinder is different: Most guys use it to get laid and/or find a significant other. Most women want validation and attention; nothing else.

Since Tinder is considered a dating app its purpose should be to connect people and have them interact via conversation with individuals they are attracted to (swiped right on), ultimately leading to conversations, dates, hookups, relationships. In my opinion, the problem arises from two observed phenomena:

1. Guys swiping like orangutans until they get any match (not fat or old) and then bombarding them with automatic rifle-like game/messages in which they spray and pray until one fish bites which then leads to a dead conversation the majority of the time. This creates an environment where girls in the 1-4 range have matches with 99+ guys without having to lift a finger (I've seen this myself on one of my female friend's Tinder) and receiving the unlimited attention and validation they desperately crave; for women attention is the equivalent of what an orgasm is for guys.

2. Women not responding to men they intentionally match with. The difference here is that women DO in-fact go through every guy's profile one-by-one and filter based on who they are attracted to (they don't spam swipe).

I believe that with just a slight tweak to the application these problems can easily be solved. If they could modify the main algorithm in a way that requires either user to respond to the first 3-4 messages from atleast 3 different matches within a given time period (days or week) or face a penalty (ban for a week or permanent ban) then that would reduce the ghosting effect dramatically. It will stop women from ghosting 80% of their matches and attention whoring by forcing them to interact with guys they are attracted to... or face elimination from the platform. On top of minimizing the application's use for attention whoring, self-validation (not its original purpose), and reducing ghosting; it also allows the application's mission to become a reality (find friends, dates, relationships - not everything else).

[Georges89]

I just deleted Tinder, Bumble etc over the weekend. I was only on there for a few weeks, but boy, I already feel better. As soon as you start swiping, you get sucked into this addictive loop of validation, chasing the next match.

But the reality was, I was finding that I was becoming more and more reliant on the dating apps for my self-worth. If I wasn't getting matches, I didn't feel attractive. And my ego was completely conditioned to it.

I was getting matches etc, and I've met two (meeting the second tonight) of the apps. But every free moment I was on the Apps, swiping. Since deleting them, I feel much better already, its amazing. As if I'm free again. Meeting girls in real life is the way forward.

Meeting a girl in real life also makes the interaction way more exciting. I'm sure from a girl's perspective, she would be much more interested in the guy that actually met her in real life then the guy who met her online. That's one thing worth remembering. If you can be the guy with the balls, you get rewarded. At the very least, it's more rewarding for you, irrespective of the final results, compared matching online.

Anyway, good riddance to these apps. If you're sitting on the fence - and this thread has ample proof to how unfavorable they are for men - then do the right thing and delete them and get back to meeting girls in real life.

[dosequis]

(03-11-2018 06:26 AM)Georges89 Wrote:  

I was getting matches etc, and I've met two (meeting the second tonight) of the apps. But every free moment I was on the Apps, swiping. Since deleting them, I feel much better already, its amazing. As if I'm free again. Meeting girls in real life is the way forward.

I'm sure from a girl's perspective, she would be much more interested in the guy that actually met her in real life then the guy who met her online. That's one thing worth remembering. If you can be the guy with the balls, you get rewarded. At the very least, it's more rewarding for you, irrespective of the final results, compared matching online.

Male hamstering and rationalizations from your part, I'd say.

From a young girl's perspective today it's in general probably more interesting if you actually come from online since they live most of their lives on there nowadays. If you have what they perceive as a cool internet persona with + 40 000 followers on Instagram and 10 000 likes on every attention whore selfie you make, that is going to be more interesting than a guy who showed balls going up to make an approach.

But I agree it's most probably more rewarding for oneself though.

[ksbms]

@Georges

Yes, these apps are one arm bandits producing an endless intermittent schedule reinforcement feedback loop. They are exploiting brains reward mechanism and kepp you addicted so you upgrade eventually to paid versions to get more reward due to an increasing tolerance of stimulus. It's making a man a harmless, ballless pet on drugs sitting in a cage. Bumble is particularly obsequious. It effectively is a gag order mechanism whereby a man petulantly waits for a woman to message him so he can try to make something out of these scraps. A man from 1950 would look at dismay how low men fell in order to get some pussy. It's a self-imposed punishment. All men can delete all these app taking away ammo from girls' hands and start actively express their interest by taking to women. Yes, it's much harder, yes, it takes more time, yes, the emotional rollercoaster is greater but you'll feel like a real hunter in the wild instead of visiting a Toys R Us store.

[Georges89]

(03-11-2018 07:41 AM)ksbms Wrote:  

@Georges

Yes, these apps are one arm bandits producing an endless intermittent schedule reinforcement feedback loop. They are exploiting brains reward mechanism and kepp you addicted so you upgrade eventually to paid versions to get more reward due to an increasing tolerance of stimulus. It's making a man a harmless, ballless pet on drugs sitting in a cage. Bumble is particularly obsequious. It effectively is a gag order mechanism whereby a man petulantly waits for a woman to message him so he can try to make something out of these scraps. A man from 1950 would look at dismay how low men fell in order to get some pussy. It's a self-imposed punishment. All men can delete all these app taking away ammo from girls' hands and start actively express their interest by taking to women. Yes, it's much harder, yes, it takes more time, yes, the emotional rollercoaster is greater but you'll feel like a real hunter in the wild instead of visiting a Toys R Us store.

Amen, brother.

[True Balla]

Yes it has. It's just gearing more towards the 80/20 rule, where the men at the top of the totem pole as cleaning up the top 80% of women. I just went on a date with a 6.5, walked around the park for 30 mins then went home. Will just have her come straight to mine next time I see her and close.

I went on a date yesterday where the girl kept saying what's your flaw? You seem too good to be true, etc. And she was a solid 7.5. I probably am overqualified for her, and she knows it - but on tinder I ended up having to use a superlike and message her 3 times before she even responded. I had almost unmatched too.

Pretty much I think the overqualified men even have to drop lower and end up taking most of the women on tinder. You just have to get yourself into that tier. I'm not that great looking, but I've pretty much maximized everything else. Pictures are well edited and filtered, very diverse, 10k+ insta followers, Job is on point, Bio on point, etc.

[N°6]

If you’re in a sexual marketplace then you’ll need to have or develop Chad Thundercock qualities.

Tinder and online dating in general values shallow front-loaded sexual qualities. Tinder has exponentially inflated the sexual value of 20% of men and 80% of women. This market is where OKCupid women claim 4/5 men are below average, where men send disproportionately frequent messages to younger women but where the ‘sweet spot’ is when the man is 8 years younger. The price inflation and depreciation of new models has brought about the used car market in which some of the better looking Beta men who are outside the top 20% can find a classic car from the surplus of single older women.

Most men in the West will never receive a compliment from women but when some of these men travel, they will be told by local women that they cannot believe that ‘such a handsome man is single or unmarried.’ Travelling to countries where men’s social values are respected by women is the easiest way to attract women with genuinely high sexual values (looks, figure, reservoir of fertile years ahead).

[Kid Twist]

(03-13-2018 01:50 AM)N°6 Wrote:  

Most men in the West will never receive a compliment from women but when some of these men travel, they will be told by local women that they cannot believe that ‘such a handsome man is single or unmarried.’ Travelling to countries where men’s social values are respected by women is the easiest way to attract women with genuinely high sexual values (looks, figure, reservoir of fertile years ahead).

The amazing thing about that as well is that you can't possibly convince them about how bad the women are where you are from, so it's not even worth your time talking about it. They are simultaneously surprised with your qualities and likely their own men being subpar (meaning their men know game and tradition), which provides a double whammy. It's kinda funny because in a way they can't imagine that women in another place have been given such agency. It's a subconscious recognition that it shouldn't happen. Which is the obvious fact in the West, given what we see.