[wi30]

(06-11-2017 08:22 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

Otherwise you might just as well say that Ashkenazi Jews have the highest tribe IQ and are now eternally declared rulers of the earth (and we should all be slaves to them just as said in Talmudic lore).

(((They already are))).

[Fortis]

Zelc and Excel are probably the only dudes who do mega quote-by-quote refutations that I enjoy reading. Good stuff, gents.

[Excelsior]

(06-11-2017 08:48 AM)MMX2010 Wrote:  

There's this YouTube channel, Just Thinking Out Loud, which features this low-20s Black girl, with an accent. I suck at accents, but I think she was born in America. She's smart (for real smart, not pretentious girl smart), articulate, thoughtful, and reasonably attractive.

Zelcorpion literally just posted a link to her channel.

You guys must all really be into this girl to be posting her links up independently like that.

The accent is Jamaican, for the record.

Quote:

Her problem is that she conspires to bring down those Crucial Institutions by advocating for an egalitarian immigration policy that refuses to discriminate based on IQ. She FEELS that a 75 IQ Somali has just as much right to immigrate as a 110 IQ Belarusian, even though she KNOWS (or maybe she doesn't) that a flood of those Somalis isn't the same as a flood of those Belarusians!

At least she's nice about it, though.

You, Excelsior, can resent who you want, and attack who you want. But you're attacking people while living under THEIR Crucial Institutions that you exploited to make yourself Oh-So-Successful. It'd be one thing if you attacked those people while living under YOUR Crucial Institutions, but it's quite another to attack those people while living under THEIR Crucial Institutions.

Hold on here. "THEIR"? Who is "THEIR"?

I'm attacking anyone who adheres to and/or sympathizes with the views I have noted I explicitly resent. That may or may not include yourself, but it certainly does include a good number of your peers here, many folks in some of the other parts of the nearby internet-spheres, and in the broader world who support some of those ideologies I resent.

What institutions do you own? Last I checked, you and the rest of the folks in the HBD/racialist/ethnonationalist sphere don't have ANY institutions of your own. You've all admitted it yourselves: these institutions have largely forsaken you and those like you (hence these societies going in directions you do not like). Some of these institutions have gone as far as to disallow appearances and speeches by folks with mindsets similar to your own. They are openly hostile to you.

Those "crucial institutions" of law, medicine, commerce, etc, don't belong to you. You don't control them. The people who do control them not only aren't you, but aren't anywhere near you ideologically. They don't agree with the notion that immigration undermines those institutions unless everyone is a 110 IQ Belarussian. They don't believe the notion that any call to allow for the migration of non-whites is an attack on said institutions that endangers them. They believe quite the opposite, actually.

I'm attacking you while partaking in institutions that have nothing to do with you. You do not control them. You do not determine their ideology. You have not shaped them. You have only limited intellectual congruity with those who actually do exercise said control. You don't have any real claim, except the notion that sharing the same skin tone and ancestry with some folks who might have a claim entitles you to one as well. That's not good enough.

(06-11-2017 08:14 AM)T and A Man Wrote:  

Quote:

Just to make sure I have you right: your argument is that the "lesser peoples" mentioned in my post above are, indeed, "lesser peoples",

It is indisputable that at any one time there are lesser cultures, just as in academia there are lesser students, and in the sporting field there are lesser athletes.

OK, but I asked you about lesser peoples, specifically, not cultures.

Quote:

Nope, you haven't got that correct.

I'm using migration patterns as an indicator that people are gravitating to the areas of the world where higher levels of human order occur, in terms of prosperity, transparency of governance and social safety nets. I also point to the inverse, where there is a lack of migratory movements to countries where these indicators are low by the standards in the rest of the world.

Basically, people move to white countries because the social order is such they are prosperous, have welfare with little obligation and white people are the least racist of all humans.

No large migratory movements go towards lesser cultures because they lack the afore mentioned things.

It is not actually true that these nations lack migratory movements toward them. Just to use Africa as an example, there is more migration within the continent than without. There are in fact very strong migratory movements to countries whose indicators you may consider low from other countries in their region (countries whose indicators are, in some cases, even lower).

[debeguiled]

I have read this thread, maybe not as closely as I should have, but at least I won't post another link to the Jamaican chick.

This is my takeaway.

Excelsior just wants a bunch of people to admit they are white supremacists.

A bunch of people just want Excelsior to admit he is a Muslim.

Neither ever will.

It is an exhilarating twist for this thread to take. It has become a conversation about everything at once.

Also, I don't think anyone is defining their terms in the same way. And I think everyone has their own personal associations with a large variety of terms and abstract symbols. That is the deer trail to getting lost in the thicket of emotion.

Oh, also,

[RIslander]

[kavi]

Pls close this thread, I cant help wanting to reply but that can only make things worse.

[MMX2010]

Excelsior has a lot in common with this guy.

[/url]

There's a big difference between challenging ideas and demonizing human beings.

Meaning, as more and more Muslims tear apart more and more little girls with nail bombs, Ali Rizvi's default AND ONLY response is to retreat into disembodied abstractions, running away from embodied observable consequences. (Those who follow Jordan Peterson will recognize this as the warning against intelligent people falling in love with their disembodied intellectual creations.)

Those who have met me can readily attest that I struggle with human emotion. But the best (and worst) part of Ali's message is that anyone else (like me) with even just a little embodied and emotional concern for Torn Apart Little Girls can instantly tell him, "Ali, you're surrendering to Islamic Terrorists."

You can't even convince him with facts.

"Ali, you spend more time tamping down on White people who criticize Islam than on Muslim terrorists." (That's not true! I criticize them both equally!)

-----

"Ali, here's Imam Tawhidi, also known as Imam Of Peace, calling out Linda Sarasour. Have you ever called out Linda Sarasour?" (That doesn't mean anything!!!)

-------

"Ali, here's Iman Tahwidi responding to a death threat with composure and love. Have *YOU* ever been threatened by a radical Muslim, and if not, does this constitute evidence that you're not effectively challenging them?" (Fuck you!)

[url=https://twitter.com/Imamofpeace/status/873837230984265729]

-------

I'll do everyone a favor, Excelsior, BY NOT responding point-by-point to your facts.

Instead, I'll just point out that Ali's fatal flaw is to assume the literal separation between Islam-as-idea and Muslims-as people. That assumption is obvious in his tweet, "There's a difference between challenging ideas and demonizing human beings." The fatal flaw is destroyed by pointing out that there is literally no such thing as an idea which floats independently from a human head.

Jordan Peterson points this out in one of his Bible lectures. "I know this sounds like the tree falling in the forest, but it's different. If a movie is running, and no one is there to watch it, in what sense is it really a movie? It seems to me that the physical properties of the movie haven't changed at all, but what makes it a movie is the conscious experience of a human being watching the movie."

Jordan is correct about this, and it applies to everything. In what sense is the Bible still the Bible, if no one is there to read it? In what sense is Islam still Islam, if no one is there to contemplate it and follow it?

Based on this, all of your explanations need to be edited.

(1) You said, "I will call them out when I see them and give their views and ideology the attacks they deserve."

What's really happening, "In light of the globalist, cultural Marxist takeover of American institutions, I'm attacking those who want to actively resist this takeover, thereby siding with the globalist, cultural Marxists."

What's also really happening, you're attacking the embodied history of American success (which is what an American is) to make room for the embodied history of Muslim lack of success (which is what a Muslim is).

Remember, Excelsior, there's no such thing as Islam-as-idea. What you call Islam-as-idea has always been Muslims-as-people, because we can literally never see Islam-as-idea without human consciousness.

-----


Lastly, I'll close with an embarrassing confession: I like to spend time imagining the proper response to the current American situation, provided I had superpowers.

I would choose Teleportation. And the first thing I would do is Teleport both a camcorder and Tariq Nasheed to Cameroon.

It's not because I hate the man, but because he's fooling himself. His words say that he cannot live with White Supremacy, but his body does that every minute of every day. And there's no way to convince him to change his words to reflect the truth of his body, so the only way to integrate his words with his body is to force his body to confront a harsh reality.

Thus, Tariq Nasheed would fall asleep in America, but wake up in Cameroon, with the explanation that there's no White Supremacy in Cameroon because Cameroon is less than 1% White. He will (maybe) be allowed back in America when he accepts this as true, and explains to everyone why he never voluntarily moved to Cameroon in the first place.

You, Excelsior, would not get teleported, because you're an esteemed member of the Roosh V Forum. But you would be challenged to move to Jamaica - with your belongings, intelligence, and Harvard education (items that make you more successful than 99.5% of Jamaicans) - and explain why the environment of Jamaica is just as likely to produce a successful person as the environment of America.

You're being asked this because you criticized someone for citing IQ tests "that are flawed because they ignore the effects of environment on intelligence". Like Tariq Nasheed, you can't realize you're lying to us about "environmental factors" unless you voluntarily live within those Environmental Factors. (The lie, of course, is your presumption that Intelligence-as-Abstraction is separable from Environment-as-Abstraction.)

Once you get that you've been lying, you can come back.

Now, if this seems harsh to you, it's not. Vox Day inspired this challenge, only he demands that people like you be forced to live for two years in a place like Jamaica. And the only way you can come back is to non-ironically join the KKK for the rest of your life!

#WouldExcelsiorWearTheRobe?

[MMX2010]

debeguiled Wrote:

Excelsior just wants a bunch of people to admit they are white supremacists.

A bunch of people just want Excelsior to admit he is a Muslim.

Not true. A bunch of people want Excelsior to admit that he's a White Supremacist, too. He refuses to live in places that are so predominately Black that White Supremacy cannot be said to exist.

His words say he's not a White Supremacist, but his body says that he is!

Jordan Peterson speaks a lot about the stressful, angry, resentful pressure created when a man's words are the complete opposite of his body's actions. You'll note that Excelsior DOES NOT resent the cultural Marxist takeover of American institutions; he resents White Supremacists who would fight that cultural Marxist takeover.

-----

It's actually not true that a bunch of us want Excelsior to admit that he's a White Supremacist. We just want to let him know, that we ALL know, that he is one.

We don't want a full confession from him, after which we'll all point and laugh at him. We just want him to keep silent, adopt a neutral mood, and stop criticizing us.

[Lucky]

Things you'll read in 2037: More people die of natural causes (55% of pop) than terrorism (47.5% of pop). Stop the fear mongering!

[Blaster]

Cerno interviews a pro-Sharia law Muslim. "Ask him anything, he won't be triggered"

Only a few minutes in he acknowledges the alliance between pro-Muslim groups and the political left as bring a legitimate concern for people.

[Excelsior]

(06-11-2017 06:39 PM)MMX2010 Wrote:  

I'll do everyone a favor, Excelsior, BY NOT responding point-by-point to your facts.

Instead, I'll just point out that Ali's fatal flaw is to assume the literal separation between Islam-as-idea and Muslims-as people. That assumption is obvious in his tweet, "There's a difference between challenging ideas and demonizing human beings." The fatal flaw is destroyed by pointing out that there is literally no such thing as an idea which floats independently from a human head.

That's correct, but not all human heads are created alike. That is where the separation of the idea and the persons comes from. Yes, the ideas require human heads, but when they can only seem to find a home in a certain minority of human heads, it becomes a bit of a stretch to suggest that said ideas belong to ALL of the human heads, especially when said vast majority of the heads have openly condemned that minority of heads for giving home to those ideas.

Quote:

Based on this, all of your explanations need to be edited.

(1) You said, "I will call them out when I see them and give their views and ideology the attacks they deserve."

What's really happening, "In light of the globalist, cultural Marxist takeover of American institutions, I'm attacking those who want to actively resist this takeover, thereby siding with the globalist, cultural Marxists."

If resisting those who believe in the inherent inferiority of myself and everyone like me makes me a "globalist ally", then so be it.
If believing that multiculturalism is not an evil that needs to be fought and countering those who believe it (and the mass of "lesser peoples" involved in it) to be the coming damnation of the world makes me a "globalist ally", so be it.

You want to "resist" whatever "takeover" you allege to have taken place by effectively attacking everything I am, and everything those closest to me are. I'm not going to co-sign that.

Quote:

What's also really happening, you're attacking the embodied history of American success (which is what an American is) to make room for the embodied history of Muslim lack of success (which is what a Muslim is).

I reject your characterization of individuals as beings whose worth, value, and ability to contribute to society is tied strictly to whatever "embodied history" you have attached to whatever broad ethno-nationalist category of humanity you have assigned them to.

People are individuals and I will treat them as such.

Quote:

Lastly, I'll close with an embarrassing confession: I like to spend time imagining the proper response to the current American situation, provided I had superpowers.

I would choose Teleportation. And the first thing I would do is Teleport both a camcorder and Tariq Nasheed to Cameroon.

It's not because I hate the man, but because he's fooling himself. His words say that he cannot live with White Supremacy, but his body does that every minute of every day. And there's no way to convince him to change his words to reflect the truth of his body, so the only way to integrate his words with his body is to force his body to confront a harsh reality.

Thus, Tariq Nasheed would fall asleep in America, but wake up in Cameroon, with the explanation that there's no White Supremacy in Cameroon because Cameroon is less than 1% White. He will (maybe) be allowed back in America when he accepts this as true, and explains to everyone why he never voluntarily moved to Cameroon in the first place.

Yes, the classic "why won't you go back?" line of attack. This is a slightly more creative expression of an old line of reasoning, but it's still an old line of reasoning none the less.

Its main failure is its attempt to correlate one's place of residence with their ideology. Residence in one place doesn't prohibit any view. You may reside in a place where you feel there is an issue with supremacists. You may have chosen to reside in this place for any number of reasons independent of said supremacists' presence. Your choice of residence does nothing to preclude you from attacking said supremacists when you find them. Your residence is not an endorsement of supremacy or anything else related to their ideology. If anything, it's an opportunity to directly attack it.

You are not obligated to remove yourself simply because you reside in a place where this thing (supremacy and its related ideologies/sympathizers) persists. You can leave, if you like, as distance is one way to deal with the problem. You have the alternative, however, of remaining in place and attacking.

After all, why not? Tariq has as much a reason to be in that place as any of the supremacists who claim he is an inferior and he ought to go. He doesn't have to cede ground to them if he does not want to. They have no standing to insist that those who oppose them must depart in order to do so, as if what they say is so legally binding on the land as to naturally repel opponents off the soil. The country does not belong exclusively to them. They do not get to determine who stays and who goes. The rules are not theirs (or yours) to make.

Me and Tariq are a bit different. You say that he cannot live with White Supremacy. I can live with it, and have done so for most of my life with it having shown no ability to prevent me from succeeding. As I said, white supremacy cannot and has not stopped me.
There's a big difference between being unable to live with supremacy, however, and being willing and able to critique it and those who adhere to it and attack the ideology.
I can live with supremacists. I will not do so quietly. When I find them, I will critique them. They are the enemy and will be treated as such.

Sidenote: Oddly enough, teleportation is my chosen "superpower" as well whenever those hypothetical discussion arise. Much more useful than flying or invisibility, imo. Not sure why it's not more popular.

Quote:

You, Excelsior, would not get teleported, because you're an esteemed member of the Roosh V Forum. But you would be challenged to move to Jamaica - with your belongings, intelligence, and Harvard education (items that make you more successful than 99.5% of Jamaicans) - and explain why the environment of Jamaica is just as likely to produce a successful person as the environment of America.

You're being asked this because you criticized someone for citing IQ tests "that are flawed because they ignore the effects of environment on intelligence". Like Tariq Nasheed, you can't realize you're lying to us about "environmental factors" unless you voluntarily live within those Environmental Factors. (The lie, of course, is your presumption that Intelligence-as-Abstraction is separable from Environment-as-Abstraction.)

Once you get that you've been lying, you can come back.

Now, if this seems harsh to you, it's not. Vox Day inspired this challenge, only he demands that people like you be forced to live for two years in a place like Jamaica. And the only way you can come back is to non-ironically join the KKK for the rest of your life!

#WouldExcelsiorWearTheRobe?

Vox Day is an open supremacist so I'm not really surprised you got the idea from him.

In any case, you picked the wrong person and the wrong country to ask about.

I am a Jamaican. I have already spent about 1/5th of my life lived so far in Jamaica - I spent most of my early life there. Much of my extended family still resides in Jamaica or was born there and maintains extensive contacts (property, jobs, etc). I schedule trips to Jamaica on a regular basis (at least annually, preferably multiple times a year). I have assets in Jamaica and intend to accumulate more. And, in the long-term, Jamaica is a planned candidate for my possible long-term expatriation (I am also considering other parts of the developing world, including Central/Latin America and the Phillipines, but Jamaica is choice #1 at the moment give the fact that it is my ancestral home).

When I resided in Jamaica, I stayed with my grandparents who live in the country. They are an even better example to meet your challenge - both migrated to the UK in the middle of the 20th century, where my mother and her siblings were born (for those keeping track: yes, I am a British national). My grandfather went for school - after leaving Oxford, he worked as a vice principal for some time. When my mother was a teenager, he packed his wife and family up and returned to Jamaica to live and teach on the island. Spent the rest of his life there with my grandmother, who still resides there.

My mother decided sometime in her twenties that she'd done all she could in Jamaica and wanted an American graduate degree, so here I am sharing a nationality with folks like you who would probably prefer folks like myself never come here.

But in either case, I was sent back to the island to reside with said grandparents. They lived in the country. This is the most difficult part of the island to live in - power is less reliable, schools are not as well equipped (the elite private schools are in the capital city), and road maintenance is iffish, at best. Trash collection varied - it's gotten better over the years. The water wasn't potable when I was there and much of it needed to be collected via water tanks, boiled, then filtered.

So yes, I am indeed intimately familiar with the environment in Jamaica. It has many flaws. It also has many strengths (all of which you'll stick your head in the sand to deny so I'll not bother listing them). I love it there, which is why I have made plans to return, invest, and reside in the long-term.

There is no lie. I've lived with said "environmental factors" and seen their impacts first hand. They have a deleterious impact on measures like IQ. When those environmental factors are removed from the equation, a substantial difference can be seen in the performance of Jamaicans (and others, like Nigerians and Ghanaians) after the fact. The IQ measurements you are backing do not take this into account, which is why I attack their credibility.

(06-11-2017 06:51 PM)MMX2010 Wrote:  

debeguiled Wrote:

Excelsior just wants a bunch of people to admit they are white supremacists.

A bunch of people just want Excelsior to admit he is a Muslim.

Not true. A bunch of people want Excelsior to admit that he's a White Supremacist, too. He refuses to live in places that are so predominately Black that White Supremacy cannot be said to exist.

His words say he's not a White Supremacist, but his body says that he is!

No, my body says nothing of the sort. That's just your own nonsensical attempt at logic.

Your problem is, as usual, the conflation of residence and ideology. Specifically, your implication here is that once cannot oppose white supremacy while living in a country in which white supremacists reside.
The truth is that I actually can, because the workings of this country are not dictated by the exclusive dominion of white supremacists and they do not get to make the rules as to who stays and who goes. I am perfectly free to remain where I am for any number of reasons totally unrelated to them and their presence while simultaneously attacking them and their farce of an ideology.
They have no greater right to be here than I do, and no power to determine my future presence here. I am free to leave - distance is a good way to deal with supremacists. However, I'm also free to stay and attack. If I decide I have my own reasons to remain here and I'd like to undermine their farcical viewpoints, I can. I am not entitled to cede any ground to them.

Quote:

Jordan Peterson speaks a lot about the stressful, angry, resentful pressure created when a man's words are the complete opposite of his body's actions. You'll note that Excelsior DOES NOT resent the cultural Marxist takeover of American institutions; he resents White Supremacists who would fight that cultural Marxist takeover.

As noted above, I've already resided in those places. If you'd been registered here longer you might have already known that.

I resent white supremacists (and their associates who sympathize with and/or hold similar views) because they are people who resent me. They view me and all like me as the enemy and are treated in kind.
I consider that common sense and you consider that a "victim complex", but it is what it is. I am not required to treat my enemy as a friend. He views me as an enemy and conducts himself in comportment with that view - I will treat him accordingly.

Quote:

It's actually not true that a bunch of us want Excelsior to admit that he's a White Supremacist. We just want to let him know, that we ALL know, that he is one.

You don't know anything about me. You didn't even know that I am a Jamaican. You're just a guy operating with no knowledge while pretending to have a philosophical and intellectual high ground that you do not have.

Unfortunately, there's been a lot of that around here lately.

Quote:

We don't want a full confession from him, after which we'll all point and laugh at him. We just want him to keep silent, adopt a neutral mood, and stop criticizing us.

No.

Fuck the KKK. Fuck "the robe". And Fuck Vox Day.

[MMX2010]

@Excelsior - A boy was born in Tehran in 1972. Shortly thereafter, the Iranian Revolution began. He emigrated with his family to the United States in 1979. At age seven, he wasn't old enough to understand the fight, but he was damn sure old enough to remember the fear. And I'm sure his transition to the United States was frightening at times, lonely at times, and perhaps even dangerous at times - but he went to college and became successful by American standards.

I'm sure that he often realized that, if not for the generosity and openness of the United States, he'd still be in Tehran. Certainly less successful. Perhaps dead in a war. But certainly less successful.

And you would think that those intermittent but persistent reminders of the stark differences between Himself In America and Himself In Tehran would've imbued in him a sense of gratitude towards America and Americans. He, himself, declared this to be true just a couple of days ago.

But quite a few people don't believe this declaration because his name is Reza Aslan. The ironic thing? Reza's tweet was intended to draw sympathy towards Muslims who are denied entry into the USA for "discriminatory reasons" - but if things really go sour in the US, Reza's tweet will be used as evidence that American generosity is wasted on Muslims. Because if Reza Aslan can't identify with Americans over foreign Muslims after all we did for him, how can any much less successful Muslims do so?


-------

About three weeks ago, Roosh posted a video of African Farmers Trying Cocoa For The First Time.

I don't like watching these types of videos because they remind me of the Christian saying, "There, but for the Grace of God, go I." I don't feel saddened in a personal sense, but in a collective sense. There's great benefit to me, personally, of knowing that But For The Grace of God - but my sadness is in knowing that this collective gratitude is missing from our culture.

You said, "If resisting those who believe in the inherent inferiority of myself and everyone like me makes me a "globalist ally", then so be it.

You also said, "so here I am sharing a nationality with folks like you who would probably prefer folks like myself never come here."

If I could speak with those cocoa farmers, I would ask them a dumb question, "If you could snap your fingers and magically decide that your ancestors be kidnapped and enslaved by Americans, so that you could have been born in America, would you?"

That question is dumb, because we both expect the answer to be yes. (To the point where if someone says no, we'll assume that he doesn't understand the question.)

After that, I'll tell them a story of a man who, in a way, did exercise that power. He was born in America, and he has the same skin color as you. He went to one of the best schools in America, a very very famous school. He was raised in our culture, and trained to love it.

But he's resentful of many of the White people around him because they think his race is inherently inferior. They don't beat him, don't prevent him from having a job, don't prevent him from dating their daughters. They only think his race is inherently inferior.

If those cocoa farmers, with their heartbreaking gratitude and happiness, truly understood my story, I predict they'll think you're inferior, too. Not because of your race, but because of your heart. Their thoughts would be my thoughts: NOT "I wish he and his ancestors had never set foot in this country." - BUT "I wish he hadn't wasted the gift of our gratitude and openness, by coming to resent the institutions that provided him with his education and success in the first place!"

Excelsior, are you going to resist those cocoa farmers because they think you're inferior? Or are you going to realize that their believing you're inferior doesn't really affect you?

------

The great HBO series "The Leftovers" ended seven days ago. Like most great HBO series, it's known for really great dialogue.

In the series finale, a groom explained the crucial difference between Fucking Up and Sinning. Fucking Up is fucking up, but Sinning is when you know what you're about to do is wrong, but you insist on doing it anyway. He closed his speech by telling his bride, "While I look forward to fucking up with you, I promise I'll never sin again."

Just Thinking Out Loud is fucking up. She read the well-reasoned, well-researched, and Never-Rebutted scientific research on racial differences in IQ, and yet she opposes the kind of IQ-based immigration system that aligns itself with that research. She, like all Fuck Ups, thinks her exception disproves the rule. Or, like all Fuck Ups, she thinks some heretofore undiscovered bit of technology will make us avoid the negative consequences of massive low-IQ immigration.

You, Excelsior, are a Sinner. You know the research on racial differences in IQ is valid. And you know the predicted consequences of mass immigration. AND you don't even argue, like the Fuck Ups, that mass immigration is enrichment.

You simply want to keep Tariq around because he expresses your resentment at being looked down upon. Those cocoa farmers know that people like me look down on them, but they make themselves happy by realizing my opinion of them has no bearing on them. Happy, despite facing struggles that you-yourself haven't faced.

You Sin by saying, "I reject your characterization of individuals as beings whose worth, value, and ability to contribute to society is tied strictly to whatever "embodied history" you have attached to whatever broad ethno-nationalist category of humanity you have assigned them to. People are individuals and I will treat them as such."

Your Sin is in knowing that you can't "personally reject" the largest culmination of science, anthropology, genetics, history, and psychology known to man. You can carry on as if it doesn't affect you personally - but you can't argue that rejecting a large body of scientific knowledge produces an approach that's Just As Valid.

You already know it doesn't.

I'll repeat again that you mischaracterized my perspective. I don't wish that your ancestors never came to America. I simply wish that you never filled your heart with so much resentment that you're actively fighting against the institutions that created the Openness and Opportunity your ancestors exploited to create you.

Like Reza Aslan, America wasted itself on you.

[All or Nothing]

Reading this thread reminds of the first set of posts Excelsior put out that made me want to go nuclear on him. I'm going to cut out the important parts:

(05-15-2017 08:34 PM)Excelsior Wrote:  

People are having a very hard time facing this because they want other visions to be true, but the reality is there whether they like it or not. All of the negative trends and traits bitched incessantly about in this part of the web today with regard to western society are the product of the general attitudes, desires, and inclinations of western people, and were in turn molded by thousands of years of history (between the inherent k-selection, history of out-group altruism, expansive conquests that effectively imposed and laid the foundation for modern globalization, socially imposed monogamy, preference for close-in-age relationships, and emphasis on nuclear family connections to the exclusion of more distant familial ties, it really isn't difficult for me to see, as a student of history, how things got here - it was a matter of time).

Western society has come where it was destined to come. It has become what it was inevitably going to become. It's easy to point to the outsiders and rally against them. But how do you fight the forces that come from within? How do you conquer the driving factors that, for the most part, are sourced from thousands of years of one's internal history and evolution, factors fundamental to the nature and existence of the society itself? At some point, its modern day crusaders (who now seem to have become the majority in this particular community and others elsewhere in this part of the web) are going to have to reckon with that.

Read the bolded part. He is saying that environmental pressures have driven white people to develop fundamentally flawed genes and as a result we will all die out.

(05-16-2017 04:23 AM)Excelsior Wrote:  

2. There is no real conspiracy (or, at least, no successful one) and what we see is merely the product of western nature (as I theorize in my post above).

Western nature = white people's biology

(05-16-2017 07:14 AM)Excelsior Wrote:  

Trump is idolized and darn near worshiped as a god-emperor around here. Why? There are many reasons (some better than others), but among the biggest is the hope he supposedly represents as a potential savior of western civilization and traditionalism. He's the one who'll bring back the old values, stave off the browning of America (read: kick out as many non-whites as possible and limit the number coming in), and make everything alright again (read: as close as possible to what things were 50-60 years ago).

If you take these three quotes and look at the underlying argument Excelsior is making within them, you will see three things:

1. Through environmental pressures white people have adopted inherently bad genes.
2. Due to our bad genes we will die out as a race.
3. As we die out we will be replaced by "brown" people who do not have our bad genes.

Excelsior underlying belief system is just plain and simple black supremacy. The reason why he sees racism everywhere he goes is because he is so deeply racist himself.

I'm sorry guys, we just can't seem reason with someone who thinks we are biologically deficient as a race of people. Especially since we are some sort of subhuman enemy of him.

[Blaster]

Quote:

I resent white supremacists (and their associates who sympathize with and/or hold similar views) because they are people who resent me. They view me and all like me as the enemy and are treated in kind.

Maybe this was just a poor choice of words, but resentment is poison. Going through life full of resentment is no way to live. I resented feminists for a long time, and thanks in no small part to this community most of that resentment is entirely in the past. But I still oppose feminists.

I don't resent immigrants either, of any race or religion. I simply oppose indiscriminate open borders policies on the basis that no sane country should have an indiscriminate immigration policy.

Quote:

I consider that common sense and you consider that a "victim complex", but it is what it is. I am not required to treat my enemy as a friend. He views me as an enemy and conducts himself in comportment with that view - I will treat him accordingly.

The main difference between having a victim complex and having enemies is that if you merely have enemies, you can clearly identify them and work against them. Victim complex is when you view yourself as a victim of an oppressor despite there being no victimization to observe or perpetrator to identify.

Anyway, trying to psychoanalyze other posters is dumb. I'm not accusing anyone of having a victim complex or of being of any religion or ideology. I'm trying to stick to ideas. In which case, my position on the race stuff is still that relentless anti-racism and attacks on "white supremacy" are doing more to advance white supremacy than anything else. We have long passed the point where we should have committed to race-blindness and equality of opportunity, while letting the vestiges of racism fade into irrelevance. Until 2016, "racist" was the most potent label you could put on someone in the United States. Now, thanks to abuse and overuse, it's losing its power, which is nothing but a good thing for the real white supremacists.

This is an excellent summary of what's happened: The End of Americas Racial Detente

Quote:

The rules of the deal were pretty straightforward. For whites, they stated that outright racist statements and explicit appeals to white racial identity were essentially banned. Along with this, whites accepted a double standard about the appropriateness of cultural and political tribalism. For obvious and reasonable historical and economic reasons, black and brown people explicitly pursuing their own interests was viewed differently than whites doing the same thing.

The other side of the deal was that so long as white people were sufficiently punished for acts of outright racism, minority leaders and communities would be cautious with accusations of racism. The key here was that once leveled and proved, the accusation of racism was a blow most whites could not come back from. From Jimmy the Greek to Michael Richardson, being labeled a racist was a black mark that did not wash off easily.

This was the basic agreement that set our cultural norms, a set of rules with relatively clear boundaries. Under those rules, many of Trump’s words and actions would have been immediately disqualifying, but they weren’t, because the rules are no longer in effect.

Quote:

Privilege theory and the concept of systemic racism dealt the death blow to the détente. In embracing these theories, minorities and progressives broke their essential rule, which was to not run around calling everyone a racist. As these theories took hold, every white person became a racist who must confess that racism and actively make amends. Yet if the white woman who teaches gender studies at Barnard with the Ben Shahn drawings in her office is a racist, what chance do the rest of have?

Within the past few years, as privilege theory took hold, many whites began to think that no matter what they did they would be called racist, because, in fact, that was happening

[Blaster]

(06-11-2017 11:03 PM)All or Nothing Wrote:  

Reading this thread reminds of the first set of posts Excelsior put out that made me want to go nuclear on him. I'm going to cut out the important parts:

(05-15-2017 08:34 PM)Excelsior Wrote:  

People are having a very hard time facing this because they want other visions to be true, but the reality is there whether they like it or not. All of the negative trends and traits bitched incessantly about in this part of the web today with regard to western society are the product of the general attitudes, desires, and inclinations of western people, and were in turn molded by thousands of years of history (between the inherent k-selection, history of out-group altruism, expansive conquests that effectively imposed and laid the foundation for modern globalization, socially imposed monogamy, preference for close-in-age relationships, and emphasis on nuclear family connections to the exclusion of more distant familial ties, it really isn't difficult for me to see, as a student of history, how things got here - it was a matter of time).

Western society has come where it was destined to come. It has become what it was inevitably going to become. It's easy to point to the outsiders and rally against them. But how do you fight the forces that come from within? How do you conquer the driving factors that, for the most part, are sourced from thousands of years of one's internal history and evolution, factors fundamental to the nature and existence of the society itself? At some point, its modern day crusaders (who now seem to have become the majority in this particular community and others elsewhere in this part of the web) are going to have to reckon with that.

Read the bolded part. He is saying that environmental pressures have driven white people to develop fundamentally flawed genes and as a result we will all die out.

What if he is right? He didn't make a strong argument but you didn't refute anything.

I certainly agree with him that we can't simply rally against outsiders to save western civilization. If we don't know what we stand for, civilization won't hold together.

(05-16-2017 07:14 AM)Excelsior Wrote:  

Trump is idolized and darn near worshiped as a god-emperor around here. Why? There are many reasons (some better than others), but among the biggest is the hope he supposedly represents as a potential savior of western civilization and traditionalism. He's the one who'll bring back the old values, stave off the browning of America (read: kick out as many non-whites as possible and limit the number coming in), and make everything alright again (read: as close as possible to what things were 50-60 years ago).

Staving off the "browning of America" is a prerequisite for sorting ourselves out. No matter how much rehabilitation might be necessary from the inside, indiscriminate open borders is just giving up without even trying. When you're in a hole the first thing to do is stop digging.

Also, we can't go back to 50-60 years ago. That's partly why we need to stave off immigration NOW, so that we can settle in and unify in a multi-racial culture so that it doesn't come down to a battle between reactionaries who want to recreate the 1960s and the radicals who want to usher in their multicultural utopia. Both visions will be disastrous just like Fascism and Communism were disastrous in the 20th century.

[RoastBeefCurtains4Me]

I think that saying Excelsior is a black supremicist is an All or Nothing argument. He is calling out any attempt by the nation and culture I was born into to defend itself from destruction as white supremacy, so he is a black supremicist. I think this argument is a little too black and white to capture the nuances of the situation.

Unfortunately, this kind of conflict is the result of the aggressive race mixing that all the traditionally white nations embarked upon 50 years ago.

So, what do we do now? Any kind of violence based solutions are no longer acceptable, and were wrong when used in previous eras.

However, people of different races who have emigrated to white societies, or whose parents did so, should accept western values and culture, including the need to cut off any further immigration, or go back and live in the culture they identify with.

We find ourselves with people of different cultures and heritages tangled up and inevitably in conflict with each other. We need a peaceful and humane way to untangle it.

[Disco_Volante]

Globalist California is an ally to the black cause, yet blacks are being exterminated out of the region by latino gangs there. I'm not sure if it's dawned on black Americans yet that once whitey is gone the violence towards them is going to increase significantly. These other races aren't going to have arguments on message boards about the philosophy of society, they're just going to exterminate you.

Perhaps since latinos and muslims pass the shit test, the only avenue left is to blame whitey. Same reason feminists do, they're genuinely afraid of those other groups.

The globalist message is a lie, particularly to women and minorities. They don't give a shit though, once they get their majority they no longer need you and you'll be discarded and ignored like southern California blacks are.

I don't understand how you can be afraid of whites when white countries are empirically safer and higher quality for black people than anywhere else in the world.

[Excelsior]

(06-11-2017 10:35 PM)MMX2010 Wrote:  

@Excelsior - A boy was born in Tehran in 1972. Shortly thereafter, the Iranian Revolution began. He emigrated with his family to the United States in 1979. At age seven, he wasn't old enough to understand the fight, but he was damn sure old enough to remember the fear. And I'm sure his transition to the United States was frightening at times, lonely at times, and perhaps even dangerous at times - but he went to college and became successful by American standards.

I'm sure that he often realized that, if not for the generosity and openness of the United States, he'd still be in Tehran. Certainly less successful. Perhaps dead in a war. But certainly less successful.

And you would think that those intermittent but persistent reminders of the stark differences between Himself In America and Himself In Tehran would've imbued in him a sense of gratitude towards America and Americans. He, himself, declared this to be true just a couple of days ago.

But quite a few people don't believe this declaration because his name is Reza Aslan. The ironic thing? Reza's tweet was intended to draw sympathy towards Muslims who are denied entry into the USA for "discriminatory reasons" - but if things really go sour in the US, Reza's tweet will be used as evidence that American generosity is wasted on Muslims. Because if Reza Aslan can't identify with Americans over foreign Muslims after all we did for him, how can any much less successful Muslims do so?

Many muslims and other immigrants (as well as their children) can identify and be grateful for America. What they won't do is identify with people who hate them and are devoted to attacking and villifying them. These are people who effectively view Aslan and everyone like Aslan as a disease, a deadly illness doomed to destroy America, the West, etc, etc. Those same people hold scarcely less hostile views toward myself or anyone like myself. Those people are the enemy, and they must be treated accordingly.

Reza Aslan can identify with Americans. He just can't identify with you, Vox Day, or anyone else in or around that sphere of thought. And why should he? As far as they are concerned, he is a stain on humanity whose mere presence is, at best, a looming threat to civilization. That's what you think. That's what most of the Alt-Right thinks. That's what a likely majority of Trump's base thinks. That's what Trump's policies imply. Why would he identify with you?

That's your problem. You can't seem to understand why people you openly attack and advocate against (be it with Vox Day articles or support for Muslim bans or support for anti-immigration policy) would be so firmly opposed to you.
You go on about their supposed love for globalism, marxism, etc. It's not even that deep.

It's the simple realization that you, at the end of the day, fight against them. You are against who and what they are. You are anti-them. There's no way to endorse that.

I am a first generation American. My family is filled with immigrants. All of my closest friends and confidantes share the same experience as immigrants. Interracial unions are all over my family. I am a product of globalization - I quite literally would not exist without it. It's the reason I have more than 3 nationalities.

What is it that makes you think I would identify with people who insist that non-white immigration is a disease, globalization in any sense is an evil, and interracial relationships are genocide?

I think i speak for the people you are talking about when I say that they can and do have all the gratitude in the world to America and to Americans. That doesn't mean they need to have any gratitude to you, Trump, the Alt-Right, Vox Day, or whoever else has decided that they're a cancer on civilization and need to be limited or purged. They owe no duty of loyalty to those who despise them and have begun to make a living off of policies intended to make the world ever more hostile to them.

Quote:

About three weeks ago, Roosh posted a video of African Farmers Trying Cocoa For The First Time.

I don't like watching these types of videos because they remind me of the Christian saying, "There, but for the Grace of God, go I." I don't feel saddened in a personal sense, but in a collective sense. There's great benefit to me, personally, of knowing that But For The Grace of God - but my sadness is in knowing that this collective gratitude is missing from our culture.

You said, "If resisting those who believe in the inherent inferiority of myself and everyone like me makes me a "globalist ally", then so be it.

You also said, "so here I am sharing a nationality with folks like you who would probably prefer folks like myself never come here."

If I could speak with those cocoa farmers, I would ask them a dumb question, "If you could snap your fingers and magically decide that your ancestors be kidnapped and enslaved by Americans, so that you could have been born in America, would you?"

That question is dumb, because we both expect the answer to be yes. (To the point where if someone says no, we'll assume that he doesn't understand the question.)

After that, I'll tell them a story of a man who, in a way, did exercise that power. He was born in America, and he has the same skin color as you. He went to one of the best schools in America, a very very famous school. He was raised in our culture, and trained to love it.

But he's resentful of many of the White people around him because they think his race is inherently inferior. They don't beat him, don't prevent him from having a job, don't prevent him from dating their daughters. They only think his race is inherently inferior.

If those cocoa farmers, with their heartbreaking gratitude and happiness, truly understood my story, I predict they'll think you're inferior, too. Not because of your race, but because of your heart. Their thoughts would be my thoughts: NOT "I wish he and his ancestors had never set foot in this country." - BUT "I wish he hadn't wasted the gift of our gratitude and openness, by coming to resent the institutions that provided him with his education and success in the first place!"

Your whole argument boils down to this: "be grateful to the white supremacists little negro, you owe them everything and they dont do you no wrong!"

It presumes, like everyone else here seems to presume, that there is no such thing as white supremacy and there are no challenges associated with being black in the USA. I'm not going to waste a bunch of paragraphs refuting that specious claim because you can't be convinced of it and, frankly, I'm tired of trying to prove that reality to people who a) are dedicated to denying it and b) have no means with which to connect to it. You've never lived it and you never will.

But I'll repeat myself, since you're not getting it: I don't resent the institutions. I resent supremacists. These are different things. You and the rest of the pro-supremacist bloc do not own the institutions, direct the institutions, or determine who is placed in said institutions. They are not your institutions.
Nothing was wasted because the "gift" you are talking about wasn't your gift. If you, Vox Day, and the rest of the supremacists I'm talking about had their way, there would have been no such gift to begin with.
The "gift" came from folks completely contrary to you (the kind who aren't dedicated to the notion that non-white immigration is cancer) and that gift was fulfilled when the recipients came here, worked hard, succeeded, and became contributing, productive citizens. Said fulfillment had absolutely NOTHING to do with their natural hostility to you and the likes of Vox Day who don't even hide your contempt for them.

Everything achieved by myself and other non-white immigrants in this country is achieved in spite of you, not because of you. You are the problem, not the benevolent solution that has tragically been set aside.

Oh, and your question was a dumb question. Do you know why that is? Because nobody wants to a family legacy that includes the trans-Atlantic slave trade. The kind of flippant dismissal ("lol this is easy, dumb question, of course youd wanna be slave descendants haha") can only be made by someone in your particular position. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

BTW, how many Africans do you even know? Because I know quite a few (I'm talking either straight out of Africa or living there still) and not a one of them would imply that a black person in America is "inferior" for daring to express disagreement and hostility toward people who explicitly characterize blacks as "lesser peoples". You literally live in a fantasy land.

Quote:

Excelsior, are you going to resist those cocoa farmers because they think you're inferior? Or are you going to realize that their believing you're inferior doesn't really affect you?

I'll invite them out for a night on the town, order a few drinks, and reminisce with them about just how full of shit you are, even as you thought you were truly poetic and brilliant with your line breaks, pithy (and totally nonsensical) hypotheticals, and pop culture references.

Quote:

You, Excelsior, are a Sinner. You know the research on racial differences in IQ is valid. And you know the predicted consequences of mass immigration. AND you don't even argue, like the Fuck Ups, that mass immigration is enrichment.

Wrong on all counts, as usual.

I openly question the research and conclusions on racial differences in IQ. I maintain that very much of it is, in fact, invalid, especially the material quoted by Vox Day, yourself, and many others. Faulty conclusions drawn from the material are legion in the HBD/Alt-Right/ethno-nationalist spheres, and they are based on fundamental misunderstandings of the data (the extent to which environmental factors contribute to measurements, among other things) that are held up by people like yourself as infallible, almost biblical in their authority. Those who dare to speak up against this orthodoxy are called deluded "anti-science" actors when, in fact, all they are doing is taking the objective look at the material that you never could.

I know the HBD/Alt-right/ethno-nationalist/etc's predicted consequences of mass immigration. I disagree with their conclusions.

Finally, I do actually believe that mass immigration is a good, beneficial thing for many societies (not just those in the west). I've never made a statement to the contrary.

Quote:

You simply want to keep Tariq around because he expresses your resentment at being looked down upon.

I want to keep Tariq around because he has a right to be around. This is his country. Supremacists have no right to dictate to him where he can and cannot go simply because he dares to respond to the fact that they hate him and openly advocate against him.

Quote:

Those cocoa farmers know that people like me look down on them, but they make themselves happy by realizing my opinion of them has no bearing on them. Happy, despite facing struggles that you-yourself haven't faced.

They would despise you as much as I do. It is only in your head that they maintain the kind of reverence and/or respect for people who hate them that you seem to think is required.

Quote:

You Sin by saying, "I reject your characterization of individuals as beings whose worth, value, and ability to contribute to society is tied strictly to whatever "embodied history" you have attached to whatever broad ethno-nationalist category of humanity you have assigned them to. People are individuals and I will treat them as such."

Your Sin is in knowing that you can't "personally reject" the largest culmination of science, anthropology, genetics, history, and psychology known to man.

No, I can't reject that and I don't. I just reject you.

Fortunately, you don't represent "the largest culmination of science, anthropology, genetics, history, and psychology known to man". You just think you do.

Quote:

I'll repeat again that you mischaracterized my perspective. I don't wish that your ancestors never came to America. I simply wish that you never filled your heart with so much resentment that you're actively fighting against the institutions that created the Openness and Opportunity your ancestors exploited to create you.

Last time: I'm not fighting the institutions. I'm fighting you. I'm fighting vox day. I'm fighting everyone who sympathizes with supremacist logic and advocates for policies actively intended to further it. These are not the people who actually created the opportunity and openness that created me. These are the people that merely think they did those things. What they actually do today is fight to constrain that openness and opportunity for people like myself and my ancestors. That is why they will receive pushback from me.

Quote:

Like Reza Aslan, America wasted itself on you.

No, quite the contrary. We are among the best investments America could have made.

You, on the other hand, are something else entirely.

[MMX2010]

@RoastBeefCurtainsForMe - Without committing to any of the four options, Vox Day outlined that there are only four options: Assimilation, Segregation, Deportation, and Elimination.

I will say that I don't support the Nazi-style elimination of racial minorities, but I'm open to the other three.

[Excelsior]

(06-11-2017 11:03 PM)All or Nothing Wrote:  

Read the bolded part. He is saying that environmental pressures have driven white people to develop fundamentally flawed genes and as a result we will all die out.

(05-16-2017 04:23 AM)Excelsior Wrote:  

2. There is no real conspiracy (or, at least, no successful one) and what we see is merely the product of western nature (as I theorize in my post above).

Western nature = white people's biology

This is incorrect. Western nature refers to the culture and the deeply ingrained social habits within, not the biology. It is in that culture and its related social habits that I find the problem. I actually do not believe that western european biology has kept step with the cultural and societal restrictions western Europeans have historically placed upon themselves.

Examining this thread I'm about to link you to and the extensive debate I had with Zelcorpion, Samseau, and others regarding the merits of monogamy will make this clearer to you. I suggest you read it in its entirety (I have linked you to the first post in the debate, which goes through the end of the thread):

post-1581818...pid1581818


To provide you with a summary, my argument in that thread rests on the fundamental notion that the biological nature of western europeans stands in fundamental conflict with the nature of the society (and the many socio-cultural limitations) they created. I cite this disconnect between the society and the biology as the main reason why systems of socially imposed monogamy that have become emblematic of our vision of western civilization have crumbled and were inevitably going to fall. That disconnect between the cultural norms/social habits and biology (which encourages behavior firmly in contradiction with said cultural norms/habits) is where the actual confusion and frustration is being created. The cultural norms/habits, not the biology, are the sticking point.

I do believe I made this clear to you in the thread in which we originally clashed over this topic. Shame to see you've forgotten that.

Quote:

If you take these three quotes and look at the underlying argument Excelsior is making within them, you will see three things:

1. Through environmental pressures white people have adopted inherently bad genes.
2. Due to our bad genes we will die out as a race.
3. As we die out we will be replaced by "brown" people who do not have our bad genes.

Not the case. See above.

Quote:

Excelsior underlying belief system is just plain and simple black supremacy. The reason why he sees racism everywhere he goes is because he is so deeply racist himself.

Blacks are not superior to Whites. I make no such claim.

I do maintain that Blacks are not inferior to Whites.

Of course, to many, the second claim is about as offensive as the first, so it is what it is.

(06-11-2017 11:45 PM)Blaster Wrote:  

(06-11-2017 11:03 PM)All or Nothing Wrote:  

Reading this thread reminds of the first set of posts Excelsior put out that made me want to go nuclear on him. I'm going to cut out the important parts:

(05-15-2017 08:34 PM)Excelsior Wrote:  

People are having a very hard time facing this because they want other visions to be true, but the reality is there whether they like it or not. All of the negative trends and traits bitched incessantly about in this part of the web today with regard to western society are the product of the general attitudes, desires, and inclinations of western people, and were in turn molded by thousands of years of history (between the inherent k-selection, history of out-group altruism, expansive conquests that effectively imposed and laid the foundation for modern globalization, socially imposed monogamy, preference for close-in-age relationships, and emphasis on nuclear family connections to the exclusion of more distant familial ties, it really isn't difficult for me to see, as a student of history, how things got here - it was a matter of time).

Western society has come where it was destined to come. It has become what it was inevitably going to become. It's easy to point to the outsiders and rally against them. But how do you fight the forces that come from within? How do you conquer the driving factors that, for the most part, are sourced from thousands of years of one's internal history and evolution, factors fundamental to the nature and existence of the society itself? At some point, its modern day crusaders (who now seem to have become the majority in this particular community and others elsewhere in this part of the web) are going to have to reckon with that.

Read the bolded part. He is saying that environmental pressures have driven white people to develop fundamentally flawed genes and as a result we will all die out.

What if he is right? He didn't make a strong argument but you didn't refute anything.

I certainly agree with him that we can't simply rally against outsiders to save western civilization. If we don't know what we stand for, civilization won't hold together.

(05-16-2017 07:14 AM)Excelsior Wrote:  

Trump is idolized and darn near worshiped as a god-emperor around here. Why? There are many reasons (some better than others), but among the biggest is the hope he supposedly represents as a potential savior of western civilization and traditionalism. He's the one who'll bring back the old values, stave off the browning of America (read: kick out as many non-whites as possible and limit the number coming in), and make everything alright again (read: as close as possible to what things were 50-60 years ago).

Staving off the "browning of America" is a prerequisite for sorting ourselves out. No matter how much rehabilitation might be necessary from the inside, indiscriminate open borders is just giving up without even trying. When you're in a hole the first thing to do is stop digging.

Also, we can't go back to 50-60 years ago. That's partly why we need to stave off immigration NOW, so that we can settle in and unify in a multi-racial culture so that it doesn't come down to a battle between reactionaries who want to recreate the 1960s and the radicals who want to usher in their multicultural utopia. Both visions will be disastrous just like Fascism and Communism were disastrous in the 20th century.

I disagree with you, but your arguments are substantially less nonsensical than some of the others I've seen put forward here. That's a good thing.

That being said, I don't think America or any other society will benefit from halts in immigration. I don't think we're in a hole, and I think such a halt will create a hole. Immigration is not only necessary, but beneficial. A few tweaks here and there will be needed to maximize its benefit, but it most assuredly should continue.

[MMX2010]

Excelsior Wrote:

Many muslims and other immigrants (as well as their children) can identify and be grateful for America. What they won't do is identify with people who hate them and are devoted to attacking and villifying them.

I'm just going to single this out, and disprove it.

Reza Aslan believes that it's discriminatory to prevent or limit Muslim immigration based on their being Muslim. You think it's discriminatory to prevent or limit black immigration based on their being black.

Whatever.

As we know, some Muslim immigrants kill native born Americans, rob native born Americans, rape native born Americans, and assault native born Americans. I would ask Reza, until he answers it, "How many deaths, rapes, robberies, and assaults by Muslims will it take to change your position on Muslim immigration?"

After he doesn't answer that, I'll show him a news story of a native born underage girl who was raped by a Muslim immigrant. Then I'll ask him if he has changed his mind. If he dodges, or says no, then I'll tell him that ONE rape by a Muslim immigrant is totally and completely acceptable to him, as long as Muslims are allowed to immigrate.

And I'll show him another, and another, and another, until he either picks a number (and sticks with it), or refuses to pick a number - which really means the number is INFINITY.

------

And I would do the same to you, except substituting black immigrants for Muslims until YOU either pick a number (and stick with it), or refuse to pick a number - which really means the number is INFINITY.

[MMX2010]

Excelsior Wrote:

I cite this disconnect between the society and the biology as the main reason why systems of socially imposed monogamy that have become emblematic of our vision of western civilization have crumbled and were inevitably going to fall. That disconnect between the cultural norms/social habits and biology (which encourages behavior firmly in contradiction with said cultural norms/habits) is where the actual confusion and frustration is being created. The cultural norms/habits, not the biology, are the sticking point.

How long have you been married and how many children do you have?

If you've never been married, have you ever proposed to a woman?

If you've never proposed to a woman, what's the single longest monogamous relationship you've ever had?

[MMX2010]

(06-12-2017 12:24 AM)Disco_Volante Wrote:  

Globalist California is an ally to the black cause, yet blacks are being exterminated out of the region by latino gangs there. I'm not sure if it's dawned on black Americans yet that once whitey is gone the violence towards them is going to increase significantly. These other races aren't going to have arguments on message boards about the philosophy of society, they're just going to exterminate you.

Vox Day talks about this all the time. He often cites Compton, California which has been "ethnically cleansed" (his words) of Blacks.

From memory, the average Mexican IQ is 92, while the average Black American IQ is 85. And that 7-point difference is enough to predict the racial takeover of Black neighborhoods by Latinos.

[Disco_Volante]

Fear of non-white immigration stems from observing their countries and cultures.

Mexico, Somalia, Pakistan, Venezuela, El Salvador, Mali, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Liberia, etc..


They are so violent and primitive I don't see how you could objectively want to live in a lower-level society, especially if you had a child who had to be exposed to all that shit.

They create nightmare countries. 85% of interracial murders are against whites in the USA. Of interracial rapes in USA like 99% are against white women, not women of other races.

What else am I supposed to conclude? I suspect these people will continue the same primitive, violent behavior they display in their own countries.

Then I notice that places like Baltimore, Chicago, and Atlanta spend more per student on education than most other countries yet they are plagued by unending violence.

I don't care if they want to live under sharia or whatever the fuck they do in their own countries, but you're denying western civ the chance to protect and maintain its higher level by applying any standards whatsoever to immigrants.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

This thread has veered too far into the White supremacy, Black supremacy and other topics.

It is more about Islamic terror and in addition whether it is wise to let millions of Muslims into Western countries.

[url=https://twitter.com/V_of_Europe/status/873993094789603328?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rooshvforum.network%2Fthread-50253-post-1590431.html%23pid1590431][/url]

At least some countries are more Red Pilled and well-versed on Islam.

------------

Also another comment regarding immigration to the West. Back in the 1970s many European countries had a negative unemployment rate - even 1980s had this.

Now the actual unemployment rate is 10-15% depending on how much they massage the stats. The unemployment rate among under 30yo men are between 35-60%!

All Western countries need zero immigration, regardless whether high-IQ, low-IQ or Muslim.

The only immigrants let in should be:

+ well-off - 1 mio.+ $ net assets and must invest and create jobs
+ 18-26yo hot girl to balance out the sausage fest - all races welcome (cannot pull family after them - only their hot sisters)
+ must not be Muslim (can leave religion at the door if he or she wants to stay)

When the unemployment is down to 3%, then we can talk again who to let in en masse.

But of course nothing of that will happen. The non-Western migrants will flow, Islam will still be sold as a Religion of Peace despite calling for subjugation of unbelievers and killing the people of the host country as if they are pigs - that is our future.