rooshvforum.network is a fully functional forum: you can search, register, post new threads etc...
Old accounts are inaccessible: register a new one, or recover it when possible. x


What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?
#1

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

I saw an article in the Richmond Free Press that said, "[Virginia] Gov. Terry McAuliffe has restored the voting rights of 152,694 ex-convicts since taking office. That’s more people than the combined populations of Petersburg, Hopewell, Charlottesville and Danville, and enough to create the fifth largest city in the state."

The standard reasoning for felony disenfranchisement seems to be, "(1) Most felons are black. (2) Most blacks vote Democratic. (3) Voting Democratic is bad for the country. Therefore, (4) disenfranchising felons will benefit the country."

Premises 1, 2, and 3 may be true, but this method (felony disenfranchisement) seems like an overly complicated and expensive way of accomplishing the desired goal (Republican victories). Wouldn't it be simpler to just ban the Democratic Party outright, or repeal the Fifteenth Amendment? Once it has been accepted that it's okay, even desirable, to target a particular race or party, why not take the idea to its logical conclusion?

A more direct strategy would be a lot more efficient than saying, "Okay, let's disenfranchise felons. Then, let's declare a behavior that we know a lot of blacks engage in (i.e. selling crack) to be a felony. Then let's have the police target the crack dealers, while mostly leaving alone their white customers. Then let's prosecute the crack dealers and throw them in prison." Involving the criminal justice system to accomplish a political agenda creates a lot of unnecessary overhead.

One might argue, "You can't just ban all blacks from voting, though. You have to convict them of a crime first; otherwise you violate the Constitution." But the drug war itself is arguably unconstitutional, at least at the federal level. We never passed a prohibition amendment against crack, the way we did against alcohol. The only way Congress was able to outlaw crack was through a creative interpretation of the Commerce Clause, pursuant to decisions like Wickard v. Filburn.

Once it's been accepted that it's okay to interpret the constitution to mean the opposite of what it says, why not just do that whenever it's politically expedient, and treat the Constitution as infinitely malleable? The Supreme Court could, if it wanted, rule, "The Fifteenth Amendment says the right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude; but we consider blackness to be more of an ethnicity than a race or color, so therefore blacks are not a protected class." The Supreme Court justices have proven that they can pull out their asses whatever rationales they want to justify government actions, so a decision like that would be nothing exceptional. Their rulings don't have to actually make sense, or be intellectually honest, or anything like that.

Sometimes Republicans talk about felony disenfranchisement as though it had to do with issues other than race. You just have to look at which states have felony disenfranchisement laws, though, to see what's really going on. A Fusion article notes, "Maine and Vermont—the nation’s first- and second-whitest states, respectively—provide America’s only opportunity to see what happens when prison inmates vote." Why would Maine and Vermont bother to disenfranchise felons, given that they hardly have any blacks in their populations? The southern states, on the other hand, have lots of blacks, so they do disenfranchise felons.

But the fact that there's no uprising in the southern states against felony disenfranchisement laws suggests to me that people don't actually take felons' right to vote all that seriously. It's kind of like how there's been no uprising against the Electoral College, or against gerrymandering. In the end, although people may complain about it, they don't actually care enough to want to do anything to force the issue. Even if they feel like their democratic rights have been trampled, they're content to just express that opinion and then move on, without taking to the streets over it.

After all, felons retain most of their other political rights. They can still write letters to the editor. They can still show up at rallies. They can still donate money to candidates. They can still volunteer to knock on doors for candidates, or man phone banks. They can still put signs in their yards and bumper stickers on their cars. They can still create dank memes.

Felons can't serve on juries, but restoring their rights doesn't necessarily lead to them serving on juries. The prosecutor can still ask during jury selection, "Has anyone here been convicted of a felony?" and then use his peremptory strikes to eliminate all the veniremen who raise their hands.

The U.S. Constitution guarantees felons the right to run for federal office, but this doesn't seem to actually result in a lot of felons' running for office. If you're a felon who isn't already famous, then you probably need to keep a low profile, and hide your felon status, so that you can continue to find work. Running for office is the opposite of keeping a low profile.

Also, there are only two kinds of campaigns for public office: (1) those that are boring, and (2) those that are controversial. Controversial campaigns tend to be costly, because they can result in a lot of social and economic ostracism. That's why we don't see a lot of candidates saying anything controversial. It's not that there aren't a lot of people who would like to express some divergent thinking; it's that they don't want to OPENLY say what's on their mind unless they can do so anonymously. But you have to give your real name when you run for office.

I'm not convinced that felony disenfranchisement deters people from committing felonies. There are a lot of other rights, like the right to not have to spend a year or more in prison, or the right to possess a gun, or the right to engage in certain professions (law, accounting, psychiatry, etc.) that people probably value more than their right to vote. I've never heard of someone facing felony charges saying, "And you know what's the worst part? If I get convicted, I'll lose my right to vote!"

I'm also not convinced that a person's being a felon causes him to differ all that much from non-felons in his political beliefs. Crack dealers, for example, aren't necessarily libertarians. If you ask them about their opinions on drug policy, they will often say that they think crack should be illegal. They just regret that they got caught dealing it.

Nor am I all that convinced that legislators usually made good and logical decisions about which offenses to classify as felonies, and which as misdemeanors. If I steal a $5 bill out of your pocket, that's a felony. If I commit destruction of property in the amount of $999, though, that's a misdemeanor. Why is it worse to steal property than to destroy it?

If you possess pornography involving a 13-year-old, that's a felony. But if you sexually abuse a 13-year-old, that's a misdemeanor. Why is it worse to possess a video of a sexual assault than to commit a sexual assault?

The answer always is, there was some interest group that lobbied for the law to be what it is now, and that continues to lobby against changing it.

By the way -- what is the point of voting, to begin with? Isn't it so that people who want to register their dissent choose ballots over bullets? It's essentially a form of appeasement, then. The rabble would present a threat unless pacified by giving them voting rights that make them feel like they made a difference.

One would think, then, that those who have shown a propensity for breaking the law should be all the more important to try to appease. If you have a large percentage of the population that isn't allowed to vote, and has a greater tendency toward criminality anyway as a way of solving their problems, plus doesn't have much to lose because they're already convicted felons, I would think that's a group the state would have reason to fear. On the other hand, if it's a politically apathetic group, then probably they're not going to vote anyway, so the issue is moot.
Reply
#2

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

I support felony disenfranchisement because most felons would vote for the party I don't like.
Reply
#3

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

I go with for prison term, supervised release, and 5+ years. Granted I'm also in the minority that believes that the right to vote should be earned from military service or through other related services to one's country but that's just me.

"Until the day when God shall deign to reveal the future to man, all human wisdom is summed up in these two words,— 'Wait and hope'."- Alexander Dumas, "The Count of Monte Cristo"

Fashion/Style Lounge

Social Circle Game

Team Skinny Girls with Pretty Faces
King of Sockpuppets

Sockpuppet List
Reply
#4

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

Quote: (05-08-2017 11:13 PM)Comte De St. Germain Wrote:  

I go with for prison term, supervised release, and 5+ years. Granted I'm also in the minority that believes that the right to vote should be earned from military service or through other related services to one's country but that's just me.

The idea of earning the right to vote through military service does have a certain "coolness factor" because it would introduce some testosterone into the political equation. Just thinking through all the possible consequences and implications, though --

Aren't there a lot of military positions that aren't that much different than being in a civilian? For example, if you spend your whole career sitting at a desk in the Pentagon, is that much different than being a government contractor? It just happens that you're working in a department that hasn't been outsourced yet.

Conversely, what about private military and private security companies, where you may be shooting at Somali pirates or at trucks that are trying to ram their way through Iraqi checkpoints, but you wouldn't be officially military? I guess to the extent those are mostly ex-military, it's a moot point.

I'm thinking that if only veterans can vote, they're probably going to be voting themselves a lot of pensions and benefits. (But as it is now, non-veterans already vote themselves plenty of benefits out of the treasury, so they have just as much of a conflict of interest.) I wonder how these increases would influence what kind of people sign up for military service. Generally, the more the benefits are increased, the higher-quality applicants you'll get.

Decisions about, say, the size of the military would take on a political dimension. For example, if the Army has a million soldiers, then that's a million new voters being added to the rolls. The more the size of the military is increased, the more it will dilute the voting power of those who are already veterans.
Reply
#5

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

Only male land owners should vote.

I voted "other". Lose right to vote for the duration of their original sentence regardless of release date + 10 years.
Reply
#6

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

markwahlbergwhatno.gif

We need fewer fringe members of civilization to be voting, not more.

Something more like: If every four years aggregate federal government spending was G in the trailing four years, that's divided by the end of period population size to give the per capita break-even figure (with some adjustments, whatever whatever), let's say K.

If you contributed more than K in federal taxes in the trailing four years, you get to vote for the next four years. If not, tough cookies. Military-based exceptions will be made, and already-paid social security amounts can be grandfathered-in.

You don't get a seat at the grown-ups table if you're sucking from the government teat.

This also gives a natural incentive for any egalitarians to need to trade-off government size and enfranchisement for their pet groups. The lesser government spending, the more people that get to vote.

We can also cap/floor it so that at least the top 20% of federal contributors get to vote. This is to very conservatively (in the numerical meaning, not politically) safeguard against the ultra-rich potentially cornering an increased spending/greater vote-share spiral. We can call it the One-Fifths Compromise.

#NoSingleMoms
#NoHymenNoDiamond
#DontWantDaughters
Reply
#7

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

Well it's not going to have any deterrent effect. "Gee, I really want to skin this guy and wear him like a suit, but I also want to vote on this $0.03 per 1k assessed value property tax increase to pay for repaving the nature trail..."

The only reason I'd generally oppose permanent disenfranchisement over a conviction is that it has the potential to encourage whichever group is in power to start trying to whittle down the opposition with bullshit charges. Similar to how tinpot dictatorships always manage to find a reason to throw their opposition leaders in prison when they have a pretend election.
Reply
#8

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

Quote: (05-09-2017 02:51 PM)BortimusPrime Wrote:  

Well it's not going to have any deterrent effect. "Gee, I really want to skin this guy and wear him like a suit, but I also want to vote on this $0.03 per 1k assessed value property tax increase to pay for repaving the nature trail..."

The only reason I'd generally oppose permanent disenfranchisement over a conviction is that it has the potential to encourage whichever group is in power to start trying to whittle down the opposition with bullshit charges. Similar to how tinpot dictatorships always manage to find a reason to throw their opposition leaders in prison when they have a pretend election.

That's a reasonable concern, but if we approach and/or reach "tinpot dictatorship" levels, voting would be the least of our worries (to the extent voting is even "real" at that point). In any case, the more fringe voters we have, the more possibility of a legitimately-installed tinpot dictatorship. The more fringe voters we have, the more open-borders-for-Third-World-browns, high forcible income transfers, amnestying of illegals, more Section 8 in housing and their equivalents in schools and workplaces.

#NoSingleMoms
#NoHymenNoDiamond
#DontWantDaughters
Reply
#9

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

Yeah, honestly I don't think criminal voting is a significant concern in general. Worrying about black crackheads voting for Hillary to get their free sandwich is peanuts compared to having a thousand times as many illegal aliens voting. Note that the democrats are fixated on not having to show ID when you vote far more than they care about felons voting.
Reply
#10

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

Citizenship is not only grants rights but requires duties. It should not be taken lightly.
Reply
#11

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

If the government can take away your right to vote, then it was never a right. It was merely a privilege bestowed upon you by your masters conditional upon you following their rules.

Here's an example of why this is fucked. A medical doctor works hard all his life studying and working 20 hour days. He saves money, plays golf, gives to charity, supports his local sheriff's office, tithes to his church, and volunteers to repair cleft palates in Honduras every summer. Then the SEC busts him for an insider stock trade because his buddy at the pharmacy told him it was a sure thing. He gets 6 months in Martha Stewart jail and 3 years probation. Now he can never own a firearm or vote again. He may even still have his medical license. He may pay $100,000 in income and capital gains tax every year to the government, yet he can't vote for his representative in Congress who will be redistributing his tax money.

Next you have ol' Jimmy hanging out on the corner begging for money. Jimmy has never had a job a day in his fucking life. All Jimmy has ever done is mooch free shit from the taxpayer. Jimmy is and always will be a burden. Jimmy doesn't even read the news nor can he tell you who George Washington was. Jimmy couldn't point to France on a map of France with France written across it. But Jimmy never caught a felony. Just multiple shoplifting, DUI, and vagrancy convictions.

But Jimmy gets to vote, and our good doctor doesn't. That's a fucked up system.
Reply
#12

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

Quote:Brewdog Wrote:

Then the SEC busts him for an insider stock trade because his buddy at the pharmacy told him it was a sure thing.


Can you cite five examples of this happening? Just five.
Reply
#13

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

Quote: (05-09-2017 07:11 PM)MMX2010 Wrote:  

Quote:Brewdog Wrote:

Then the SEC busts him for an insider stock trade because his buddy at the pharmacy told him it was a sure thing.


Can you cite five examples of this happening? Just five.

Since I'm the only one with access to google, sure thing:

https://www.statnews.com/pharmalot/2016/...egado-sec/

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Doc...05399.html

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/1...mpire-edge

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_D._Waksal

http://qctimes.com/news/state-and-region...0d74a.html

https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/newyor...ing-scheme

http://www.sbsun.com/business/20140519/s...er-trading
Reply
#14

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

Quote: (05-09-2017 07:31 PM)BrewDog Wrote:  

Quote: (05-09-2017 07:11 PM)MMX2010 Wrote:  

Quote:Brewdog Wrote:

Then the SEC busts him for an insider stock trade because his buddy at the pharmacy told him it was a sure thing.


Can you cite five examples of this happening? Just five.


What you said, "Then the SEC busts him for an insider stock trade because his buddy at the pharmacy told him it was a sure thing."

What you posted, "These individuals were caught committing insider trading, of their own volition, because they thought they wouldn't get caught."

Those aren't nearly the same thing.
Reply
#15

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

Quote: (05-09-2017 07:40 PM)MMX2010 Wrote:  

Quote: (05-09-2017 07:31 PM)BrewDog Wrote:  

Quote: (05-09-2017 07:11 PM)MMX2010 Wrote:  

Quote:Brewdog Wrote:

Then the SEC busts him for an insider stock trade because his buddy at the pharmacy told him it was a sure thing.


Can you cite five examples of this happening? Just five.


What you said, "Then the SEC busts him for an insider stock trade because his buddy at the pharmacy told him it was a sure thing."

What you posted, "These individuals were caught committing insider trading, of their own volition, because they thought they wouldn't get caught."

Those aren't nearly the same thing.
Oh I see! You thought that a fictional doctor that I didn't provide a name for was a real person and not an example!

I'll go ahead and let you know that Jimmy in the second part of my example is not a real person either. I don't want anyone else to be confused.
Reply
#16

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

I don't like it, but I never really have. Don't we have something like a 98% conviction rate? I am not convinced that everyone is guilty all the time. What about all the people who beat convictions and charges simply because they're loaded out the ass?

Sure, they're technically "innocent" but their unethical asses are still out in the wild doing all the big league bad shit, while we're patting ourselves on the back for putting away a few drug-slinging meth and crack users.

seems like trying to plug a river (crime) with pebbles.

I will be checking my PMs weekly, so you can catch me there. I will not be posting.
Reply
#17

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

Quote:Brewdog Wrote:

Oh I see! You thought that a fictional doctor that I didn't provide a name for was a real person and not an example!


No.

I think your original quote portrays the doctors as hapless victims of their "buddy's" actions, but the links you posted portray the doctors as willful criminals who got caught.
Reply
#18

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

I know of several states that have a civils rights restoration processes, all the states might have the process but I only know a handful for sure. Brewdog's fictional doctor would probably get his rights back since the felony was non-violent. A family member of mine actually deals with the process in court. It is funny to hear of gangbanging violent felons pleading for their gun rights restored so they can go "hunting." Especially when their charge was a violent gun crime.

"Boy ya'll want power, God I hope you never get it." -Senator Graham
Reply
#19

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

Legal system in the USSA is such a cluster fuck. Felons should have the right to vote ,single moms can after all.....
Reply
#20

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

Quote: (05-08-2017 10:53 PM)Jean Valjean Wrote:  

I saw an article in the Richmond Free Press that said, "[Virginia] Gov. Terry McAuliffe has restored the voting rights of 152,694 ex-convicts since taking office. That’s more people than the combined populations of Petersburg, Hopewell, Charlottesville and Danville, and enough to create the fifth largest city in the state."

The standard reasoning for felony disenfranchisement seems to be, "(1) Most felons are black. (2) Most blacks vote Democratic. (3) Voting Democratic is bad for the country. Therefore, (4) disenfranchising felons will benefit the country."

Your "standard reasoning" can't possibly be accurate since most disenfranchisement laws targeted only whites when they were written (black people didn't have the right to vote back them).

I have since corrected your quote

Quote:Quote:

A nonsensical and historically inaccurate reasoning for felony disenfranchisement seems to be, "(1) Most felons are black. (2) Most blacks vote Democratic. (3) Voting Democratic is bad for the country. Therefore, (4) disenfranchising felons will benefit the country."

And let's not forget, before they were bought off, the Democrats used to be the working mans party. Believe it or not, they used to fight for the rights of regular working guys to have decent wages instead of tranny-in-bathroom issues that affect a fraction of 1% of Americans.
Reply
#21

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

Quote: (05-10-2017 09:07 AM)Number one bummer Wrote:  

I know of several states that have a civils rights restoration processes, all the states might have the process but I only know a handful for sure. Brewdog's fictional doctor would probably get his rights back since the felony was non-violent. A family member of mine actually deals with the process in court. It is funny to hear of gangbanging violent felons pleading for their gun rights restored so they can go "hunting." Especially when their charge was a violent gun crime.

Hey, hunting rival gangbangers is still hunting.
Reply
#22

What do you think about felony disenfranchisement?

Rights and responsibilities always go hand in hand. You can't cherry pick to enjoy the rights without the obligation of responsibility.

If you don't follow the rules of society, you don't get to enjoy the rights of that society.
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)