[redbeard]

(10-14-2018 12:02 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

(10-14-2018 10:16 AM)redbeard Wrote:  

Fake news - ETH transaction count is inflated due to the millions of low-value dApp transactions.

"low-value"



Unless you can prove the larger ETH transaction count is due to zero-value transactions, the point stands.

Ethereum is used more than Bitcoin. I'm willing to reconsider if you can make a solid argument as to why most ETH transactions should be discounted.

Quote:

Avg. Transaction Value:
BTC: $21,000
ETH: $439

Do average values mean much unless they represent a normal distribution? Think about the simple case of 1 billionaire jacking up the average net worth of 100 people).

Regardless, assuming it is a normal distribution, what's the argument being made here with average transaction value? People send more $ per transaction through BTC than ETH? Great...and?

As an analogy:

A Ferrari costs more than a Toyota, but there are more Toyota vehicles on the road. So Toyota is more "used".

Toyota Motor Corporation's marketcap incidentally is also much higher than Ferrari N.V.'s.

So I'm not convinced transaction value means anything in regards to crypto marketcap or total user adoption/usage.

Do you even math?

We can use the median transaction value if that's easier.

https://bitinfocharts.com/comparison/med...th.html#3m

BTC: $314
ETH: $0.025

Hmmm. Strange. Why is this so low, if people are "using ETH?"

The answer is simple - ETH tx count is inflated by 0 ETH smart contract transactions. Take a look inside any block and you'll see a laundry list of:

0 ETH
0 ETH
0 ETH

No one is using ETH as money, or else the tx value would be higher.

From there, the rest of your post misses one major point: money is winner-takes-all. Under a gold standard, silver is useless. No matter how much people "use" altcoins, all money will flow back to gold - aka Bitcoin.

[redbeard]

P.S. 29,999 BTC ($194,000,000) was just sent on the Bitcoin blockchain for $0.10.

Looks like that average transaction value might be going up!

https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/bace35...6646970202

[JayJuanGee]

(10-15-2018 03:50 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

P.S. 29,999 BTC ($194,000,000) was just sent on the Bitcoin blockchain for $0.10.

Looks like that average transaction value might be going up!

https://www.blockchain.com/btc/tx/bace35...6646970202

Redbeard, you points about Ethereum seem to be dead on, and I don't know where the data comes from when some people are attempting to claim that Ethereum is being used in any kind of putting your money where your mouth is sense - and there has been a lot of blockage of the network - which may have even started before cryptokitties - which seemed to have broken their blockchain - at least came close on the clogging sense, and how is it going to be resolved (theory, theory theory that never goes into practice except by asserting that various supposed fixes are in the future).

Bitcoin, in contrast, has large kinds of transactions similar to the one that you pointed out taking place frequently, and yeah those BIGGER transactions likely bring the average BTC transaction amount up - depending on the time and the scale.. but overall, even the large BTC transactions don't change the average very much because on bitcoin there continues to be a lot of oingoing transactions and usage to store and to transact value which are a mixture of large and small transactions.. and seemingly large transactions being more dominant (which continues to keep the average BTC transaction up)..

Concerning quantity of BTC transactions, even though there are periods of peaks and troughs in BTC transaction, with the passage of time, BTC transactions continue to go up and don't really seem to be losing any kind of momentum (in spite of the naysayers attempting to assert that bitcoin is broken, deficient or that it is grandpa's coin - theoretical talking points of course).

https://www.blockchain.com/charts/n-tran...mespan=all

The above-linked blockchain.com chart shows all time daily BTC transactions and their going up throughout the period from 2009 to present, and spiking in December/January and recently going up again, and I suppose overall there is a certain level of consistency since 2016 (or at least the transaction volume has stayed above a certain level, but there was a drop, and the below chart shows 7-day averages (of the daily transactions - which ends up being a straighter line, rather than squigglies), which does show daily transactions currently trending up (in recent months, since early April).

https://www.blockchain.com/charts/n-tran...geString=7

[Giacomo Casanova]

I don't see ETH as a replacement if Bitcoin, one is mainly a currency, the other one is a platform hence you are comparing apples with bananas...
As for a bitcoin investor, I would be concerned about other protocols and currency coins which are making progresses. Monero for example is releasing a new update of the protocol this week which could reduce the average transaction fees below btc level...

[JayJuanGee]

(10-16-2018 04:14 AM)Giacomo Casanova Wrote:  

I don't see ETH as a replacement if Bitcoin, one is mainly a currency, the other one is a platform hence you are comparing apples with bananas...
As for a bitcoin investor, I would be concerned about other protocols and currency coins which are making progresses. Monero for example is releasing a new update of the protocol this week which could reduce the average transaction fees below btc level...

As for ethereum and bitcoin being different, I believe that you are largely correct, but some guys want to characterize them as if they are the same, and that is why they assert concepts such as flippening in order to attempt to imply that there is a kind of "taking over" that would occur in the event of such flippening, which ramifications are questionable at best (as you seem to suggest).

Regarding bitcoin versus monero or other crypto projects, Why be concerned?

If Monero, for example, seems plausible, then a guy can just buy some Monero.

For example, if I were to have $1,000 invested into bitcoin, and then all of a sudden Viola!!! Monero looks like it is doing something meaningful in terms of my own vision of what is important including my finances, my view of the project, my risk tolerance and my timeline, then I could maybe either put $1,000 in Monero or some other amount that I believe is proportion to how successful I believe that such monero is going to be either long term or short term or whatever other time period that I may want my to allocate my money in that monero direction - including dollar cost averaging methodologies that could be applied.

If my idea today is different from my idea tomorrow, then I am able to tweak my investment strategies accordingly, too.

I don't see any reason for me to be concerned about various other cryptos, besides bitcoin, because I only know what I know when I know it, and I invest in bitcoin or other cryptos according to what I know or what I believe I know and tweak my holdings from time to time and with the passage of time (perhaps rightly and perhaps wrongly, but as long as I am living I have the chance to continue to tweak my investment whenever and however I like)..

If I were to become concerned, perhaps, based on new information that I find out, then personally, I doubt that I would either panic or become concerned because that is not my style of investing.. .. because there is already a certain level of craziness in the crypto space in terms of the number of projects and the information that is put out about them, and each guy should be considering information on his own terms to figure out how it works for him... and likely there is no need to rush into things but there can also be disadvantages (opportunity costs) in taking no stake at all, so devising a plan is part of a process that should not be rushed even though it can be tweaked and rethought from time to time and usually it remains better to take some kind of action in the direction of carrying out the plan rather than just having such plan as theoretical and without acting upon it.

[redbeard]

(10-16-2018 04:14 AM)Giacomo Casanova Wrote:  

I don't see ETH as a replacement if Bitcoin, one is mainly a currency, the other one is a platform hence you are comparing apples with bananas...
As for a bitcoin investor, I would be concerned about other protocols and currency coins which are making progresses. Monero for example is releasing a new update of the protocol this week which could reduce the average transaction fees below btc level...

Even IF ethereum becomes a successful platform (ignoring all technical problems), that doesn't mean the token has value.

With Atomic Swaps, interoperability, Shapeshift, and better wallets, you'll soon be able to swap cryptocurrencies for each other at the snap of a finger. That means you can store your wealth in Bitcoin, then when you "need" to use a dApp, your wallet calculate show much gas you need, swap it to ETH, and then spend it.

Or let's pretend you "use" ETH a lot (doubtful). How much money would you keep in ETH? 1% of your wealth? You would want the rest in a stable, secure asset like Bitcoin.

ETH is still overvalued because currently, the market is 99% speculation. No one is actually using ETH, as shown earlier.

I highly recommend everyone (bulls & bears) read this bearish takedown of ETH by Tetras Capital. They went short in May, so their entry is $600-$800. Needless to say it worked out!

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/tetra...Thesis.pdf

[Genghis Khan]

There are a lot of faulty arguments posted above, but I'll just address a few in particular:

(10-16-2018 06:02 AM)redbeard Wrote:  

Or let's pretend you "use" ETH a lot (doubtful). How much money would you keep in ETH? 1% of your wealth? You would want the rest in a stable, secure asset like Bitcoin.

This doesn't hold up in reality. Do people hold most of their wealth in stable, secure assets such as gold? Do you see people hoarding cash and metals?

No, people put their money into assets that provide a ROI relative to their base currency. That means assets such as stocks, bonds, real estate.

Warren Buffett holds a ton of cash right now and he does so in the form of Treasury bills, which provide a small amount of interest.

Gold is quite frankly only useful in incredibly uncertain times, such as eras of hyperinflation. Even hardcore goldbugs recommend holding about 10-20% of your wealth in gold. You'd have to a bit of a fool to hold anything more in gold.

Going back to "digital gold", Ether will be used for staking and thus provide an ROI. Bitcoin will not. That's already a major advantage for ETH.

Quote:

ETH is still overvalued because currently, the market is 99% speculation. No one is actually using ETH, as shown earlier.

This is untrue. Those 0 ETH transactions still require fees, which are paid in ETH, thus showing that people do use ETH.

Unless you mean people don't exclusively use the Ethereum network to move massive amount of money around. And even then:

https://twitter.com/whalewatchio/status/...5407698944

$183 million USD sent over the Ethereum network for $0.06.

I've recently used ETH to pay gas and as currency inside some dApps, so let's not use hyperbole and say nobody is using ETH.

Quote:

I highly recommend everyone (bulls & bears) read this bearish takedown of ETH by Tetras Capital. They went short in May, so their entry is $600-$800. Needless to say it worked out!

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/tetra...Thesis.pdf

You should use your own logic to Bitcoin. Bitcoin went down severely from May as well. Where's the bearish takedown of Bitcoin?

This is confirmation bias, nothing more - bearish outlook in a bearish market is not much better than a bullish outlook in a bullish market. That said, I do look forward to you posting a bullish outlook from a random fund group when ETH moons again.

PS the report has multiple faulty arguments, the most egregious being where they state even optimistically we won't see scaling solutions for another 2 years. This is flat-out wrong, L2 scaling solutions are already up and running, in particular LOOM Network and we will see many more in the next 2 years.

[redbeard]

(10-24-2018 08:52 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

There are a lot of faulty arguments posted above, but I'll just address a few in particular:

(10-16-2018 06:02 AM)redbeard Wrote:  

Or let's pretend you "use" ETH a lot (doubtful). How much money would you keep in ETH? 1% of your wealth? You would want the rest in a stable, secure asset like Bitcoin.

This doesn't hold up in reality. Do people hold most of their wealth in stable, secure assets such as gold? Do you see people hoarding cash and metals?

No, people put their money into assets that provide a ROI relative to their base currency. That means assets such as stocks, bonds, real estate.

Warren Buffett holds a ton of cash right now and he does so in the form of Treasury bills, which provide a small amount of interest.

Gold is quite frankly only useful in incredibly uncertain times, such as eras of hyperinflation. Even hardcore goldbugs recommend holding about 10-20% of your wealth in gold. You'd have to a bit of a fool to hold anything more in gold.

Going back to "digital gold", Ether will be used for staking and thus provide an ROI. Bitcoin will not. That's already a major advantage for ETH.

People don't hold cash because they know inflation will take 3% a year.

BTC's deflationary nature means that holding it will increase in value over time, even if it's being used as money.

This will prove more profitable than staking ETH (if it ever happens), because ETH (currently) has an infinite supply and will get diluted over time. Additionally, I can't find a source on it right now but IIRC the ROI on staking was something like 2-3%.

Quote:

Quote:

ETH is still overvalued because currently, the market is 99% speculation. No one is actually using ETH, as shown earlier.

This is untrue. Those 0 ETH transactions still require fees, which are paid in ETH, thus showing that people do use ETH.

Unless you mean people don't exclusively use the Ethereum network to move massive amount of money around. And even then:

https://twitter.com/whalewatchio/status/...5407698944

$183 million USD sent over the Ethereum network for $0.06.

I've recently used ETH to pay gas and as currency inside some dApps, so let's not use hyperbole and say nobody is using ETH.

We can agree to disagree on this. I see BTC as more valuable due to more money transmitting through it, you prefer more tx count.

Quote:

Quote:

I highly recommend everyone (bulls & bears) read this bearish takedown of ETH by Tetras Capital. They went short in May, so their entry is $600-$800. Needless to say it worked out!

https://s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/tetra...Thesis.pdf

You should use your own logic to Bitcoin. Bitcoin went down severely from May as well. Where's the bearish takedown of Bitcoin?

This is confirmation bias, nothing more - bearish outlook in a bearish market is not much better than a bullish outlook in a bullish market. That said, I do look forward to you posting a bullish outlook from a random fund group when ETH moons again.

PS the report has multiple faulty arguments, the most egregious being where they state even optimistically we won't see scaling solutions for another 2 years. This is flat-out wrong, L2 scaling solutions are already up and running, in particular LOOM Network and we will see many more in the next 2 years.

We're strictly talking long term fundamentals here. Trading it in the short to medium term is another discussion.

I've long said that ETH could have market cycle before it dies - in which case you bet your ass I'll buy it all the way up to new ATH. But, that doesn't mean I think it has a future at all.

[Genghis Khan]

LOOM just onboarded their first external validators for PlasmaChain, one of their three dPoS layer 2 solutions:

https://medium.com/loom-network/plasmach...c2ab49aac1

Staking to be available in Q1 2019. The main validators will let you delegate your LOOM tokens, so you don't even need to know how to use AWS or anything.

Super bullish on LOOM (not price, but definitely the project).

[Genghis Khan]

zero-knowledge transactions now live on mainnet through AZTEC protocol:

https://www.aztecprotocol.com/

They're saying metamask will incorporate it:

https://twitter.com/_ArnaudS_/status/106...2600357889

Give it a few months, maybe all of 2019 tops and we'll have private transactions on the ETH network adopted on a mass scale.

[redbeard]

(11-30-2018 04:34 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

zero-knowledge transactions now live on mainnet through AZTEC protocol:

https://www.aztecprotocol.com/

They're saying metamask will incorporate it:

https://twitter.com/_ArnaudS_/status/106...2600357889

Give it a few months, maybe all of 2019 tops and we'll have private transactions on the ETH network adopted on a mass scale.

Good stuff, are there any details on how they did the trusted setup ceremony?

[JayJuanGee]

(11-30-2018 06:44 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 04:34 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

zero-knowledge transactions now live on mainnet through AZTEC protocol:

https://www.aztecprotocol.com/

They're saying metamask will incorporate it:

https://twitter.com/_ArnaudS_/status/106...2600357889

Give it a few months, maybe all of 2019 tops and we'll have private transactions on the ETH network adopted on a mass scale.

Good stuff, are there any details on how they did the trusted setup ceremony?

Yes. Hopefully not too many peeps get caught up into false sense of security marketing claim.. and sometimes it can take quite a bit of time to attempt to verify how much some new feature might live up to its claims.. and some players in the crypto space have less credibility than others with their making proclamation about what they are going to be able to do.

[Genghis Khan]

(11-30-2018 06:59 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 06:44 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 04:34 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

zero-knowledge transactions now live on mainnet through AZTEC protocol:

https://www.aztecprotocol.com/

They're saying metamask will incorporate it:

https://twitter.com/_ArnaudS_/status/106...2600357889

Give it a few months, maybe all of 2019 tops and we'll have private transactions on the ETH network adopted on a mass scale.

Good stuff, are there any details on how they did the trusted setup ceremony?

Yes. Hopefully not too many peeps get caught up into false sense of security marketing claim.. and sometimes it can take quite a bit of time to attempt to verify how much some new feature might live up to its claims.. and some players in the crypto space have less credibility than others with their making proclamation about what they are going to be able to do.

Lol you're such a concern troll

[Genghis Khan]

(11-30-2018 06:44 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 04:34 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

zero-knowledge transactions now live on mainnet through AZTEC protocol:

https://www.aztecprotocol.com/

They're saying metamask will incorporate it:

https://twitter.com/_ArnaudS_/status/106...2600357889

Give it a few months, maybe all of 2019 tops and we'll have private transactions on the ETH network adopted on a mass scale.

Good stuff, are there any details on how they did the trusted setup ceremony?

I don't think they've shared. Though I think the trusted setup stuff, like PoW, is mostly a first generation thing.

I imagine it'll get switched to a trustless setup eventually. Similar to how researchers come up with zk-STARK to deal with the problems of zk-SNARK, one of which was the trusted setup of zk-SNARK.

[JayJuanGee]

(11-30-2018 08:15 PM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

(11-30-2018 06:59 PM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

[ edited out]

Lol you're such a concern troll

Why do you say that?

I view that I am making an observations of a decently important consideration, including whether a claim is going to play out with the passage of time.

It seems that guys participate in these kinds of threads in order to bat around ideas that might cause them to invest more or less into various assets, in this case crypto assets, and there are a lot of crypto assets that are built on top of ethereum... and all kinds of claims through ethereum or some products that are built on top of it, like I said, that don't necessarily play out in longer term practice - even though various kinds of claims could be a reason to pump (or dump) in the shorter term.

[Genghis Khan]

(05-24-2018 01:44 AM)Genghis Khan Wrote:  

Neat idea - sending ETH that can be reversed:
https://info.silverwire.io/

Also, Loom just came about with a possible EOS killer:
https://medium.com/loom-network/announci...eba6c244da

Quote:

ZombieChain: A Shared DPoS Sidechain For Ethereum DApps

Our original vision for Loom Network was that every DApp will run on its own sidechain, such that each DApp is able to customize its DAppChain for the performance / decentralization tradeoff that suits its needs.

And this model still makes a ton of sense for high-volume applications, like a decentralized Reddit or Hearthstone.

But after talking to early beta users of the Loom SDK, we realized not every developer is ready to bootstrap their own DAppChain from day one and host their own validators. A lot of our beta developers simply want a sidechain they can deploy their Ethereum DApps to that’s faster and more performant than today’s Ethereum mainnet.

So we decided to launch a shared DPoS sidechain that anyone can deploy DApps to for a fixed monthly fee.

Say hello to ZombieChain!

Built on the Loom SDK

Quote:

Sub-second block times

In order to run interactive applications like Reddit or Hearthstone on the blockchain, it’s important from a UX perspective to have extremely fast block times. No one wants to wait 15+ seconds to see their comment appear, or for their opponent to end his turn!
Since ZombieChain runs on DPoS, we’re seeing sub-second block times on average (interactive demo coming soon) — making it an ideal place to host DApps that require a fluid UX and high interactivity.

Quote:

Plasma Cash support coming

We previously announced that we’re adding plasma cash to the Loom SDK in June. We’re still on track for release next month, and after it’s ready we plan to add support to ZombieChain as well.

This means DApps and games deployed to ZombieChain will be able to let users securely transfer their ERC721 tokens from mainnet (and in a later version, their ERC20 tokens and ETH as well), enabling some really cool things that aren’t currently possible on Ethereum mainnet alone.

Quote:

All these Loom chains will be using Ethereum as the “high court” with Plasma Cash for security. A single DApp could use multiple different Loom chains simultaneously to handle different specialized portions of the DApp (identity, marketplace, etc.), running the most expensive and custom pieces of logic on their own dedicated DAppChains.

You could even have “sidechains of sidechains”, like a shared games chain using ERC721 assets from Ethereum, where individual matches take place off chain.

Loom is quite frankly the most excited I've been about blockchain since I discovered Ethereum. It's going to be absolutely huge and the team is 100% on board with Ethereum as the main chain.

If I could, I'd "invest" in Loom tokens - too bad they're set at a fixed price, so no speculation - just indicating this team is dead serious about scaling dApps on sidechains.

I've updated my position on LOOM tokens.

The price is now uncapped, and more utility has been added to the token. Team has been doing a great job building and shipping code.

Most underrated project in the space, and most undervalued as it's a direct competitor to EOS and Tron, but build on top of Ethereum.

Extremely bullish on the token, though might take until next bullrun to see it really pop.

All aboard the LOOM train!

[arafat scarf]

Ethereum now going on a tear... Up 40% this week, and 50% for the month. A lot of good news coming out:

+ Etrade to offer Ethereum trading to users (also Bitcoin)
+ Societe Generale issued a bond as a security token on the Ethereum block chain
+ Microsoft Azure (2nd largest cloud infrastructure provider) building dev tools to integrate service with Ethereum blockchain
+ Ethereum 2.0 (proof of stake implementation) testnet releasted

[Jaydublin]

Ethereum breaks 255!!

Edit: 260!