[PharaohRa]

Roosh

The (((usual suspects))), it seems, are becoming more emboldened ever since they decided to go after Andrew Anglin and Daily Stormer and decided to become more aggressive in casting anything as wrongthink as personal non grata and cutting off their access to a popular revenue collection service such as PayPal. This is thus the weakness of having too few reliable electronic collection mediums for revenue collection. Using cryptocurrency wallets as revenue collectors would be advisable as well as seeking other PayPal alternatives. If I knew any others apart from those listed, I would mention them.

And yes, librulism (and virtue signaling) is a mental disorder!

[CaptainChardonnay]

I hate paypal. Horrible to deal with. I buy a lot of shit online and they are assholes who are not on your side.

[Cattle Rustler]

We could sign up a couple of minority males from the forum to play the SJW card and say SJW sites are discriminatory, culturally patronizing minorities, or something like that.

[BallsDeep]

The problem with most of the alternative payment methods that have been posted in that nobody has accounts with them and isn't going to bother using them.

There's one exception, CCNOW.

They take 4.9% which is high, but they accept credit cards and paypal, and I'm almost positive they're the only third party payment processor that accepts paypal payments.

It's where many companies who get banned from paypal, but must continue to accept paypal, go to. The customer goes through the CCNOW cart and pays their paypal account instead of you directly, and then CCNOW deposits into your account. That gets paypal and their bullshit policies out of the way.

[Aurini]

(05-02-2017 09:57 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

We could sign up a couple of minority males from the forum to play the SJW card and say SJW sites are discriminatory, culturally patronizing minorities, or something like that.

That's not a bad idea at all. It isn't a solution, per se - but it would sew discord and confusion amongst our enemies.

Quote:

Let the enemy's own spy [PayPal] sow discord in the enemy camp

Undermine your enemy's ability to fight by secretly causing discord between him and his friends, allies, advisors, family, commanders, soldiers, and population. While he is preoccupied settling internal disputes, his ability to attack or defend is compromised.

[Nineteen84]

Time to use Patreon.

[DarkTriad]

(05-02-2017 09:57 PM)Cattle Rustler Wrote:  

We could sign up a couple of minority males from the forum to play the SJW card and say SJW sites are discriminatory, culturally patronizing minorities, or something like that.

That's good, but we can go further with less effort. Every anti-gay Islamic group, every group that advocates killing the "unbeliever", every feminazi group advocating violence against men, any group advocating racial hatred or violence against white people, every lefty group advocating violence in general, just inundate them with the consequences of their "rules" till they can't handle it anymore. A lot people have been gliding on a social "pass" on these issues, if Paypal wants to make it an issue, we'll let it be an issue. Try to pick some people they make money off of too.

At the very least, it will help show a paper trail of selective enforcement when we do get a class action against them.

[username]

(05-02-2017 11:06 PM)Nineteen84 Wrote:  

Time to use Patreon.

Patreon is equally bad. They've shutdown numerous people for similarly weak reasoning as well.

What really needs to happen is a free speech alternative for all the services blackballing conservatives. Patreon, Paypal, YouTube, Facebook, all need to have some competition come and knock them off their high horses.

[Nineteen84]

(05-03-2017 01:48 AM)username Wrote:  

(05-02-2017 11:06 PM)Nineteen84 Wrote:  

Time to use Patreon.

Patreon is equally bad. They've shutdown numerous people for similarly weak reasoning as well.

What really needs to happen is a free speech alternative for all the services blackballing conservatives. Patreon, Paypal, YouTube, Facebook, all need to have some competition come and knock them off their high horses.

Good info. I've seen many 'questionable' Patreon pages so assumed they are more lenient - I guess they take them offline once they gain a level of notoriety.

[Jean Valjean]

(05-03-2017 01:48 AM)username Wrote:  

Patreon is equally bad. They've shutdown numerous people for similarly weak reasoning as well.

What really needs to happen is a free speech alternative for all the services blackballing conservatives. Patreon, Paypal, YouTube, Facebook, all need to have some competition come and knock them off their high horses.

What's involved in starting up a new payment processing company like that?

When I use PayPal, I'm usually putting in a credit card number rather than logging into my PayPal account anyway.

[TravelerKai]

I recently stopped using my Paypal account because they held money being sent to me for no reason at all, then lied to me several times and to the person sending it, about the reason for the holds. I never had problems with them for years, but this year they pissed me off so badly, I switched to wire transfers via banks instead. I just eat the slightly higher fees and sometimes the fees are less than Paypal's fees.

Amazon also cheated me this year and treated me like garbage over the phone.

I guess when leftist companies ran by women and effeminate men refuse business, it will just give others an opportunity. Paypal is a joke now. Used to be people talked about how they were going to be a major threat to VISA or other similar companies, but if they want to get into politics, it must mean their leadership structure is not business minded at all.

Big picture wise, the Book of Revelation is getting to be more true everyday in regards to not being able to buy or sell without the Mark of the Beast. Today it is Paypal, but if VISA, Mastercard, AMEX, and others start going down this path of refusing services to customers for speech reasons, it will push many underground or into alternatives. Trump in office doesn't scare them, they are playing the long game, and 4 or 8 years is not a big deal to them. Once they get a government leader that will let them go wild, it's over. The end goal would be for them to make those alternative services illegal to use unless they follow the same rules. This is alot of the reason why they (the Fed and the US Govt) hate Bitcoin so much.

[Nineteen84]

(05-02-2017 02:55 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

(05-02-2017 02:35 PM)PainPositive Wrote:  

Is this a big hit to your business financially speaking or is it just an annoyance?

What advice would you give to others using paypal for their online businesses? I'm asking so others know what to do to prepare for more crackdowns.

This is a pretty big hit. It has been stressful dealing with the cancellation. A lot of you had monthly donation subscriptions (mostly through ROK). All those are gone.

I may have advice a few months down the line.

(05-02-2017 02:35 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

What payment processor will you use now? I like Payoneer, but it's mainly aimed at freelancing, not sales and donations.

There are many alternatives, but some are worse than Paypal in how easily they shut down your account. Others have far more strict standards to sign up.

In my opinion:

This is all about PayPal's need for compliance. They fear fines from Financial authorities.

Paypal's goal is to limit their exposure to potential legal ramifications. Using external advisory organisations like SPLC etc. allows them to be able to say 'see - were doing something to combat issues' thus covering themselves. SPLC (Endowment: 319 million USD), in turn, take advantage of the legal compliance fears of companies like PayPal in order to create a need for their 'services' and thus generate revenues. Ad infinitum.

By exaggerating the potential threat of sites like ROK it sets off alarm bells in PayPal's Legal department and SPLC etc get to drum up even more business for their organisation (run by lawyers and look pretty much like law firms when you look under the hood).

Solution::

So perhaps a version of the 'Malicious Compliance' approach is the best game to play here. No need to reinvent the wheel with building new services or trying to obfuscate your payment (at your level they'll cotton on eventually or someone will email them). Play by their rules to the absolute letter and give PP the legal buffer they need:

SPLC are exploiting the ambiguous and subjective PayPal Acceptable Use Policy which states:

Quote:

(f) the promotion of hate, violence, racial intolerance or the financial exploitation of a crime, (g) items that are considered obscene,

The Acceptable Use Policy however states nothing about where a PayPal enabled site is allowed to advertise.

Therefore:

Step 1. Start a fresh site selling a 100% 'neutral'/ innocuous product such as, say - an ebook or video series giving financial advice for people travelling. This is the service/ product you'll be selling, not Rok donations subscriptions. Make sure it is legally separate from ROK etc;
Step 2. Set it up to receive payments via PayPal. Use a subscription or one-off model. Track via basic affiliate software;
Step 3. Advertise it on your existing Kings media properties asking for support in your new separate venture, thus providing a PayPal safe substitute method of receiving 'subscriptions', leverage your existing fanbase to create a replacement revenue stream;
Step 4. Profit (cover costs).

SPLC won't be able to do a thing, even if they try to flag you for review again.

Obviously this won't help directly with the products they now consider violations but will help to reduce the financial burden of the PayPal block.

Payment processing companies are typically not concerned with what you stand for as a citizen but the context in which you use their services and how it reflects on them legally (it's about their legal exposure remember). SPLC etc. only pretend to be outraged because your controversial nature indicates you are a source of potential (indirect) revenue for them. This is a long term setup; I believe companies & individuals such as yourself were fished for a long while back. They then become the 'authority' on the topic and can take the naughty persons list to say, PayPal etc for $.

None of this is personal of course - it's all about money. How they regard you as an individual is irrelevant.

By operating a separate and neutral system such as outlined above you bypass the acceptable use issues and satisfy the PayPal legal department whilst still being able to harness your existing fanbase. You are operating 100% legally and within the rules of the game they themselves laid out.

[Leonard D Neubache]

Sorry to hear this.

On a tangeant, this is why retaining cash transactions is a necessity.

Once everything goes electronic then you can be impoverished at the push of a button.

[Northern]

(05-02-2017 02:37 PM)Robert High Hawk Wrote:  

This is extremely ominous. There is no near competitor to PayPal that I can think of.

For the lawyers out there, is there any case for a class action lawsuit here?

If this expands, you can imagine any user or poster on RoK will get targeted. It's easy enough to track down your details.

I'll gladly donate towards some kind of action to swat this down. I would especially enjoy donating to it via PayPal.

skrill.com (used to be moneybookers.com) More popular in Europe

[Vladimir Poontang]

Try Payoneer ( http://www.payoneer.com )

[Irenicus]

I am sorry to hear that Roosh.

Let us know how can we help!

[Hypno]

As bad as this is, the government is worse.

The banking regulators started something called Operation Chokepoint where they basically don't let banks process payments for certain businesses, such as

Ammunition Sales
Cable Box De-scramblers
Coin Dealers
Credit Card Schemes
Credit Repair Services
Dating Services
Debt Consolidation Scams
Drug Paraphernalia
Escort Services
Firearms Sales
Fireworks Sales
Get Rich Products
Government Grants
Home-Based Charities
Life-Time Guarantees
Life-Time Memberships
Lottery Sales
Mailing Lists/Personal Info
Money Transfer Networks
On-line Gambling
Pawn Shops
Payday Loans
Pharmaceutical Sales
Ponzi Schemes
Pornography[9]
Pyramid-Type Sales
Racist Materials
Surveillance Equipment
Telemarketing
Tobacco Sales
Travel Clubs

Operation Choke Point is an initiative of the United States Department of Justice that was announced in 2013,[1] which is investigating banks in the United States and the business they do with payment processors, payday lenders, and other companies believed to be at higher risk for fraud and money laundering.

This operation, disclosed in an August 2013 Wall Street Journal story,[2] has been accused of bypassing due process; the government is pressuring the financial industry to cut off the companies' access to banking services including access to capital(loans), without first having shown that the targeted companies are violating the law.[3][4][5][6] As reported by the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, critics say, "it's a thinly veiled ideological attack on industries the Obama administration doesn't like, such as gun sellers and coal producers."[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Choke_Point

[Hypno]

From a legal standpoint, I think a business can choose not to do business with your for any reason unless it violates a specific law. For example, the Civil Rights Act states that you don't have the freedom to not conduct business on the basis of race, color, religion, sex, or national origin. The EEO Title VII has also been supplemented with legislation prohibiting pregnancy, age, and disability discrimination.

So if you wanted to challenge PayPal's decision, you would have to allege something such as PayPal did this because of your religion, national origin, race, sex, etc. You are not the typical caucasian American, so you might plausibly be able to make this sort of claim, but your argument is still flimsy.

You could sue them and allege they did this because of these things, but since they didn't explain why you don't have much to go on.

You might be able to get to discovery, in which case you can get the actual reason. But its probably a SJW who claims you promote hate or violence. Unless you can prove they cancelled you due to your religion, national origin, etc., you probably lose.

So they can basically take away your first amendment rights, because they are not a government actor.

Of course, you can publicize their position and call for a boycott.

They were spun off of eBay a few years ago and are now a standalone public company. However, the original founders, guys like Thiel and Musk, sold it origianlly to eBay. So while PayPal is public, those guys don't own shares anymore, at least not a significant block. A list of their 5+% holders is here: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/...c243695_17

[scrambled]

(05-02-2017 05:12 PM)Going strong Wrote:  

Paypal does business with the criminal, extreme-Left organization, FEMEN, specializing in serial sexual indecent-exposure (and brewing violent anti-Russian racism): https://femenshop.com/

Scandalous that an organization (Femen) that's been convicted of aiding and abetting sexual-indecent-exposure, all over the world, be allowed to use (covertly though, they hide it from their homepage, you have to simulate buying a product) Paypal, don't you think?

What paypal allows donations for, "Femen Protestor removed from Marine Le Pen Rally":

http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2017/04...ly-793042/

[All or Nothing]

(05-02-2017 01:43 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

So as you know, Paypal shut down my account a few weeks ago without reason and right to appeal. They said the details are "sealed" and that I need to subpoena them using a lawyer to uncover it. In the past several days, two rightward sites had their Paypal shut down:

Do you know any leftward sites that use Paypal who has preached hatred against men or white people? I'd like to bring attention to that. I know that the Church Of Satan has an active Paypal account.

Roosh, I think your best option would be to pay a web developer to set up a subscription service for your readers and you charge a monthly fee for "special" content like podcast interviews with well known manosphere people and for longer form articles deconstructing modern political happenings.

You can be forward in explaining why you have added a subscription service for "extra" content (need money), and I'm sure your readers would understand.

You would have to store people's credit card numbers which means extra money being spent on maintenance and security, but I think in the long run that will provide you with an independent revenue stream that no one can interfere with.

[Roosh]

(05-03-2017 01:47 PM)All or Nothing Wrote:  

(05-02-2017 01:43 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

So as you know, Paypal shut down my account a few weeks ago without reason and right to appeal. They said the details are "sealed" and that I need to subpoena them using a lawyer to uncover it. In the past several days, two rightward sites had their Paypal shut down:

Do you know any leftward sites that use Paypal who has preached hatred against men or white people? I'd like to bring attention to that. I know that the Church Of Satan has an active Paypal account.

Roosh, I think your best option would be to pay a web developer to set up a subscription service for your readers and you charge a monthly fee for "special" content like podcast interviews with well known manosphere people and for longer form articles deconstructing modern political happenings.

You can be forward in explaining why you have added a subscription service for "extra" content (need money), and I'm sure your readers would understand.

You would have to store people's credit card numbers which means extra money being spent on maintenance and security, but I think in the long run that will provide you with an independent revenue stream that no one can interfere with.

I would still need a merchant account, which could cancel me at any moment. For me the plan is to find a company that wants to do business with me, instead of being scared of a random unjust cancellation.

[djk100]

How about using google wallet?

[All or Nothing]

(05-03-2017 02:13 PM)Roosh Wrote:  

I would still need a merchant account, which could cancel me at any moment. For me the plan is to find a company that wants to do business with me, instead of being scared of a random unjust cancellation.

I see the problem there. Well, I wish you the best of luck on finding a cooperative company.

[Elster]

Can the other organizations that receive donations like femen be denounced like Roosh was?

[Simeon_Strangelight]

This is part of a bigger crackdown on alternative News and content providers.

Around the same time they recently cracked down on Youtube accounts - anything that they deemed to be "hateful".

Of course among those were all accounts that criticized feminism, the migrant issue, SJWs, Islam, terrorism, mainstream media and candidates.

Large Youtube accounts that had hundreds of thousands of subscribers suddenly were demonetized and instead of making thousands or tens of thousands suddenly made close to nothing.

It is not coincidence that they went after PewDiPie - he was even a liberal, but he had such a large independent following that they had to cut that streak short, because who knows and PewDiPie goes truly alternative and starts spilling the beans to his millions of followers?

You are free to do cat-videos, feminism vids, lovely vids on how wonderful Islam is and ISIS is just misunderstanding Islam, videos that tell you that terror does not matter since more people die in car accidents and that you need to chill when millions of refugees get invited into your country each year - everything is going to be alright.

I expect them to allow full porn vids to be shown on Youtube before they let the thought-criminals have some cash.

They do it via money first and all alternatives have to start to rely on fully alternative platforms and maybe alternative payment services. But one thing is clear - they will make far less money, because you cannot have on one way the full business world feeding the FekeNews-assholes and existing in the same world as the alternative content providers, but then suddenly expecting the Alternatives to rely on a different form of funding.

Infowars somehow managed it by getting alternative commercials and then using their platform to sell products direct. That may be an option for Return of Kings - there are many ways on how to monetize on that front, but it is a slightly different business model than just pure content and books.

By the way - this will only get worse in the future. Youtube and Twitter will likely begin to clamp down on anyone and anything or at least it will be impossible for them to make any cash via those platforms.