[buja]

Quote:

Did these Americans need French visas?

Thanks to the Soviet Union which had all but defeated the Nazis, there was no air force to stop the landing at Normandy. Many soldiers drowned because Eisenhauer didn't bother to check the tidal conditions.

US war contractors did supply the Soviets with quality equipment though.

[GlobalMan]

Rossi, if the E.U. and its members want to be delusional and pretend that Romanians or Bulgarians etc are no different than Belgians or Germans for example that's fine, but the U.S. is not going to be beholden to whatever the European Union decides from here forward because an agreement was signed 17 years ago, 7 years before some of these countries were granted full EU membership.

If the USA and Mexico decide that Mexico is going to part of the USA tomorrow, will the E.U. honor visa free travel for 122 million Mexicans?

Your example of a personal, binding legal contract with your phone company has no relation to this agreement of visa waiver. The United States has complete and final say on which countries are included on our visa waiver list, and the U.S. did not give up that right by making the 2001 agreement- neither did the E.U.

Saying that, I do think perhaps the citizens of Croatia and Poland should be eligible for visa waiver, but we do not have access to the data that these decisions are based on, and there may be good reason for these decisions.

Either way, if the E.U. wants to play this game and require visas from Americans (and Canadians) that is fine, it is a very small price to pay for retaining and exercising the sovereign right to decide who enters our country.

[scrambled]

^ Considering the already existing decline in tourism in Western Europe, visa requirements for the numerous and wealthy (by world standards) US Citizens would probably destroy much of the tourist industry in France, Italy, Spain, Greece. UK, Ireland, Latin America, would absorb the tourism instead. Lots of people will not bother to get visas.

[scrambled]

(03-03-2017 10:14 PM)Innuendo Wrote:  

(03-03-2017 07:22 PM)mpr Wrote:  

They shouldn't have gotten in either! I think it's insane that Latvia is part of the EU! Brazil, China, and Russia receive a fraction of the number of American tourists that the EU does. I don't think that requiring visas from American tourists will be a fatal hit or anything. But don't kid yourself. It will have a sizable economic impact.

The vast majority of tourists in Europe are from other European countries. US tourists are less than 5% of international tourists.

You are viewing all tourists as equal; and all tourism as the same. On the contrary, the International US tourist spends a lot more money and time then many of the Intra-European 'tourists', who really (for example) are sometimes only crossing a border for a shopping trip and then returning. Those trips get counted on the official stats.

[scrambled]

(03-04-2017 06:44 AM)Nowak Wrote:  

Why would members from the post 04 EU expansion want to overstay visas and cause problems in the US or Canada?,

Jobs, money

Quote:

for social tourism there is Germany or Ireland. Poles and Romanians with money will travel and wont cause problems.

The visa system limits those with money, that's the point--bank account and existing jobs get checked.

Quote:

Nothing SJWy about not wanting people to step all over you. Lolbertarians and muh freedom types don't seem to understand anything that happens here across the pond. I'm noticing this trend more and more.

Some kind of name calling, straw manning, irrelevancy.

Quote:

You're are also wrong about Venice, do any basic google search on this,Venice is having huge problems with tourism and the locals are being driven out by extremely high prices.

You totally misinterpreted my comments; that's the point, Venice does have too much tourism. What I wrote, "it [i.e. Tourism] might hurt the destination (Venice) but the governments want the revenue badly." Ah, poor straw man, he has lost again.

Quote:

Iraq war and Bama's intervention was majorly responsible for the migrant influx ,Europe is wrong to not have a militarized border control,but an unstable middle east is always bad regardless,that's America's doing.

Work on those commas & spacing man.

[superschalk]

(03-06-2017 06:59 AM)scrambled Wrote:  

^ Considering the already existing decline in tourism in Western Europe, visa requirements for the numerous and wealthy (by world standards) US Citizens would probably destroy much of the tourist industry in France, Italy, Spain, Greece. UK, Ireland, Latin America, would absorb the tourism instead. Lots of people will not bother to get visas.

Sorry mate your statement is totally wrong. There is no decline in tourism in Western Europe. Spain for example just had a record 2016 with over 75 Million visits. Only about 2 Million of these visitors were coming from the US.

So now let´s say no one of these 2 Million US citizens will come next year. It still leaves Spain with 73 Million tourists. Do you think these two Million missing tourists will destroy the whole tourism industry? Furthermore if an US citizen is interested coming to Europe getting a visa will still be an easy process and will give access to not just one country but 26 different Schengen countries.

To be clear I think visas for US citizens are a stupid idea by the EU and I think it will never be implemented but it is not such a big deal at all.

For EU tourism it would be more important that the sanctions against Russia are getting lifted and that the Russian Ruble gets stronger again.

[scrambled]

(03-06-2017 07:26 AM)superschalk Wrote:  

Sorry mate your statement is totally wrong. There is no decline in tourism in Western Europe.

Au contraire: There has been a major decline, mostly due to terrorism attacks; this has been reported for some time:

"European tourism plunges after Brussels and Paris terror attacks"
https://www.rt.com/business/337612-belgi...s-tourism/

"Chinese tourists shun western Europe in wake of violence as travel to France drops 15 per cent"
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/money-wea...p-european

"Airport closure, dip in Chinese arrivals snap tourism growth for first time since 2009"
http://www.dailymirror.lk/article/Airpor...24924.html

Quote:

Spain for example just had a record 2016 with over 75 Million visits. Only about 2 Million of these visitors were coming from the US.

Even if those number were accurate, they don't account for the money spent, or the type of "visits"; I was discussing tourism, not visits, which is a different thing altogether. Many (if not most) "visits" are not touristic in the common sense, like Americans going abroad on holiday, but rather shopping jaunts for the day over the border, which benefit the host country far less.

And giving your argument the best credit, you underestimate how important 2 million (relatively) wealthy American tourists are a year to a country with a minimal industrial base like Spain, and which has major and long-standing economic problems of its own. Tough talking from those who certainly are not operating a business based on tourism, but any significant decline in high-spending international tourists (like USA visitors) makes a major dent in the revenues of local tourism markets, for hotels, restaurants, tour companies, etc. Even if the decline is small by percentage, it is major by its effect on marginal profits, which is what really matters.

Quote:

So now let´s say no one of these 2 Million US citizens will come next year. It still leaves Spain with 73 Million tourists. Do you think these two Million missing tourists will destroy the whole tourism industry?

Nice straw man, I never said the industry would be 'destroyed'. Of course drunk Brits will still go to Ibiza, Frenchmen will trip to Basque Country, etc. But nonetheless, any visa requirements will further shrink the tourism market at a time Western Europe is already losing money and undergoing major demographic and economic "changes" (i.e. collapse).

In any case we all got suckered into arguing over something that won't happen.

[Rossi]

(03-06-2017 12:20 AM)GlobalMan Wrote:  

Rossi, if the E.U. and its members want to be delusional and pretend that Romanians or Bulgarians etc are no different than Belgians or Germans for example that's fine, but the U.S. is not going to be beholden to whatever the European Union decides from here forward because an agreement was signed 17 years ago, 7 years before some of these countries were granted full EU membership.

If the USA and Mexico decide that Mexico is going to part of the USA tomorrow, will the E.U. honor visa free travel for 122 million Mexicans?

Your example of a personal, binding legal contract with your phone company has no relation to this agreement of visa waiver. The United States has complete and final say on which countries are included on our visa waiver list, and the U.S. did not give up that right by making the 2001 agreement- neither did the E.U.

Saying that, I do think perhaps the citizens of Croatia and Poland should be eligible for visa waiver, but we do not have access to the data that these decisions are based on, and there may be good reason for these decisions.

Either way, if the E.U. wants to play this game and require visas from Americans (and Canadians) that is fine, it is a very small price to pay for retaining and exercising the sovereign right to decide who enters our country.

Then, you shouldn't have the signed the treaty. Did you sign it? Yes, you did.

Did you put a clause on the contract that "New EU member countries will be exempt from this deal."? No, you did not.

So, legally speaking, you have to obey the agreement that you signed.

And yes, if Mexico will be part of US tomorow, 122 million Mexicans should benefit from visa free travel since US-EU signed a deal.

By the way, E.U don't require visa from Canadians. Canada was doing samething to EU and EU negotiated that it wasn't fair. Now, Canada also lifted visa's from those 5 EU members. It is a fair deal now. There is no problem with Canada now.

[Nowak]

(03-06-2017 07:22 AM)scrambled Wrote:  

(03-04-2017 06:44 AM)Nowak Wrote:  

Why would members from the post 04 EU expansion want to overstay visas and cause problems in the US or Canada?,

Jobs, money

Quote:

for social tourism there is Germany or Ireland. Poles and Romanians with money will travel and wont cause problems.

The visa system limits those with money, that's the point--bank account and existing jobs get checked.

Quote:

Nothing SJWy about not wanting people to step all over you. Lolbertarians and muh freedom types don't seem to understand anything that happens here across the pond. I'm noticing this trend more and more.

Some kind of name calling, straw manning, irrelevancy.

Quote:

You're are also wrong about Venice, do any basic google search on this,Venice is having huge problems with tourism and the locals are being driven out by extremely high prices.

You totally misinterpreted my comments; that's the point, Venice does have too much tourism. What I wrote, "it [i.e. Tourism] might hurt the destination (Venice) but the governments want the revenue badly." Ah, poor straw man, he has lost again.

Quote:

Iraq war and Bama's intervention was majorly responsible for the migrant influx ,Europe is wrong to not have a militarized border control,but an unstable middle east is always bad regardless,that's America's doing.

Work on those commas & spacing man.

1 This isn't the 1990's. In terms of economic strength, Romanian and Poles have better passports having access to the EU single market than Merkans do. The odd illegal Pole or Romanian is less likely to be on social welfare in the US than the average Hick, inner city person or illegal

2 Reality isn't pretty. Ultra free market types are delusional and prove this with their supreme ignorance of cultural matters. The ugly American stereotype is a reflection of such realty and this is no where reflected more than in Venezia. Now locals must deal with extreme price gouging.

3 Yup, revenue is all that matters, we need Eurabia because otherwise we'll have no more cash cows to tax farm

[Nowak]

(03-06-2017 07:43 AM)scrambled Wrote:  

(03-06-2017 07:26 AM)superschalk Wrote:  

Sorry mate your statement is totally wrong. There is no decline in tourism in Western Europe.

Au contraire: There has been a major decline, mostly due to terrorism attacks; this has been reported for some time:

"European tourism plunges after Brussels and Paris terror attacks"
https://www.rt.com/business/337612-belgi...s-tourism/

"Chinese tourists shun western Europe in wake of violence as travel to France drops 15 per cent"
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/money-wea...p-european

"Airport closure, dip in Chinese arrivals snap tourism growth for first time since 2009"
http://www.dailymirror.lk/article/Airpor...24924.html

Quote:

Spain for example just had a record 2016 with over 75 Million visits. Only about 2 Million of these visitors were coming from the US.

Even if those number were accurate, they don't account for the money spent, or the type of "visits"; I was discussing tourism, not visits, which is a different thing altogether. Many (if not most) "visits" are not touristic in the common sense, like Americans going abroad on holiday, but rather shopping jaunts for the day over the border, which benefit the host country far less.

And giving your argument the best credit, you underestimate how important 2 million (relatively) wealthy American tourists are a year to a country with a minimal industrial base like Spain, and which has major and long-standing economic problems of its own. Tough talking from those who certainly are not operating a business based on tourism, but any significant decline in high-spending international tourists (like USA visitors) makes a major dent in the revenues of local tourism markets, for hotels, restaurants, tour companies, etc. Even if the decline is small by percentage, it is major by its effect on marginal profits, which is what really matters.

Quote:

So now let´s say no one of these 2 Million US citizens will come next year. It still leaves Spain with 73 Million tourists. Do you think these two Million missing tourists will destroy the whole tourism industry?

Nice straw man, I never said the industry would be 'destroyed'. Of course drunk Brits will still go to Ibiza, Frenchmen will trip to Basque Country, etc. But nonetheless, any visa requirements will further shrink the tourism market at a time Western Europe is already losing money and undergoing major demographic and economic "changes" (i.e. collapse).

In any case we all got suckered into arguing over something that won't happen.

Dude, you gotta read Vox Day. Western Europe still has much better demographics than the US. I posted a thread about the education system in NY today under politics and war. Even in Londonstian or Paristan this shit would never happen


As for the tourism industry being destroyed, a severe hit may not be the worst thing.


Europe holds the cards in this scenario

http://www.spiegel.de/international/busi...04903.html

[Eddie Morra]

None of this is going to happen gentlemen. Just like Ukraine (population 42 mil.) getting Visa free access (which the EU is stalling on despite giving Georgia (population 3.7 mil.) Visa free access, beginning sometime this month or April).

The EU Parliament has little power. It all has to pass the EU Commission. Look at their voting rules. It'll never pass. Especially in this geopolitical, economic environment. Too many multi-national business interests would be effected. Besides, each country already has their own bi-lateral Visa policies with the US that predate Schengen and all they have to do is re-enact them. This is more symbolic than realistic.

Another futile attempt by the bureaucrats in Brussels to prove to their respective members that they are still relevant.

The EU is imploding before our very eyes.

[Rossi]

Well, I guess EU is serious about this issue this time.

http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news...14881.html

They're expected to do the voting by end of May and early June according to Italian news tonight.

[Phil619sd]

Mexico already has visa free travel to the Schengen area. Just clarifying for those making assumptions itt

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

This EU Parliament proposal is nothing more than pathetic virtue-signaling to "punish" USA over it's "discriminatory border policies" under Trump. Nothing will come out of it and these people are not even serious about it. They just want the publicity so they can later brag "see, we showed these racists!" to various Brussels-based globohomo think-tanks that are going to be their future employers.

[Khan]

The EU's relevance in world affairs is going to be substantially diminished in years to come. Bureaucrats and apparatchiks in Brussels are probably aware of that, that's why they're trying so hard to make themselves important by issuing useless decrees and policies like this.

[Matt Forney]

Like everyone else has already said, nothing is likely to come of this. The European Parliament has no power, and there's too much money tied up in tourism for the EU Commission to end visa-free travel for Americans.

Moreover, what guarantee is there that individual European countries will honor the EU's directive? As the "Poland loophole" thread shows, the Poles have no problem allowing Americans to come and go as they please according to the terms of a pre-Schengen bilateral agreement.

Keep in mind that the European Parliament passed this order because Poland was one of the EU countries that isn't allowed visa-free travel to the U.S. The Poles themselves don't seem to mind this arrangement. Would they suddenly change their minds based on this new restriction?

[JayMillz]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...09406.html

The European Parliament has voted to end visa-free travel for Americans within the EU.

It comes after the US failed to agree visa-free travel for citizens of five EU countries – Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Poland and Romania – as part of a reciprocity agreement. US citizens can normally travel to all countries in the bloc without a visa.

The vote urges the revocation of the scheme within two months, meaning Americans will have to apply for extra documents for 12 months after the European Commission implements a “delegated act” to bring the change into effect.

[Rawmeo]

Visa requirements are set according to many criteria, one of them being the probability that the said nationals will leave the country at the end of their stay. The US doesn't want to give visa-free travel to citizens of "refugee factories" like Romania.

Let's put it this way: If Mexico would become the 51st US state and all Mexicans would get US passports, do you think that countries offering visa-free travel for Americans would continue to honor this privilege? It's the same for EU - some "poor" countries who don't belong there joined the EU and this caused the overall "branding" of the EU to lower, so the US must be careful regarding who they let in.

I am sure that this story will drag on forever, and ultimatedly end up swept under the rug.

[LionOfCA]

I hate the EU.

Let us focus on the stupidity of the EU for a moment. . . They're allowing millions of 2nd and 3rd world non-Europeans into Europe who will do nothing but drain the economy of it's energy, vitality, and culture; while simultaneously attempting to restrict the movement of 1st world European descendants into Europe who would do nothing but bring money into their economies. It's hard for me to believe that the EU leadership aren't trying to intentionally destroy Europe at this point.

The incompetent academics--with zero real-world experience--leading the west at the moment are toxic and cancerous.

[Quaestum]

There's already two threads about this:

Article: "EU lawmakers vote to scrap visa-free travel for Americans to Europe"
European Parliament votes to end visa-free travel for Americans!

As said in the other threads before too, it's a non-binding vote and nothing is going to happen - sadly, they got not enough balls to upset the US.

[Mod: Threads merged]

[Mirjan]

They actually did it eh?

Trying to act like a "union" because Trump stopped for a while gypsy factories such as Romania to enter the USA at the expense of richer countries it's far from being a smart move.

However at the same time people should not forget that there are several American military bases in Romania for example together with anti air missiles base.

Anyways this might mean more American tourists in non eu countries in Europe.

[LionOfCA]

As an American, if this is implemented, I won't spend a penny in Europe based on principle alone. South America/Russia/Asia look nice, doesn't it?

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(04-08-2017 04:25 AM)Rawmeo Wrote:  

Visa requirements are set according to many criteria, one of them being the probability that the said nationals will leave the country at the end of their stay. The US doesn't want to give visa-free travel to citizens of "refugee factories" like Romania.

Heh - the reason why the US blocks those countries VISA entry is not due to fear that wonderfully enriching Roma would enter the US.

The US does not want White Poles and white Christian Eastern Europeans to come - and I agree - they would. Probably 1-1.5 mio. would come in total (those places within the EU are not shitholes at all), but most of them would turn to be white Christian, above average in IQ and probably Trump voters.

Brown and low-IQ people and Muslims - all of those are highly welcome and greatly desired.

[samsamsam]

When does this go into effect and does it apply to Poland?

Edit: so it was a symbolic vote but won't be implemented?

[Uruz]

First positive thing that I hear from EU.