[Leonard D Neubache]

(12-31-2016 09:57 AM)weambulance Wrote:  

...
The only other place where I sort of felt the same thing was an abandoned building my fire team searched in Iraq. We found a steel door in a concrete wall in one hallway, and no matter what we did we couldn't get it open. There was a pool of dried blood that had run out into the hall under the door. It was just creepy as hell and this was in broad daylight. I was glad to be out of there and it's one of my most vivid memories of my time in Iraq.
...

That would bother me until the day I died. I could never stand not knowing. It bothers me even to simply read about it.

I just have a heartfelt belief that no death and its cause should ever go unrecorded. I don't know why that's so important to me. Some sort of bizarre mix of Christian upbringing and OCD I suppose.

[ivansirko]

(12-31-2016 10:31 AM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

Even the mainstream historians allege that the Holocaust was planned out only during and after the Wansee conference.

Which makes the above a total falsehood.

Auschwitz was built in 1940. When it first took in prisoners did it not server as an extermination camp for prisoners? And did those exterminations occur before 1942 (before the conference you spoke of)?

Seems like you are not telling the whole story nomad.

[Parzival]

There was the Madagascar Plan where they wanted to Deport all the jews and not kill them. The plan for the killing started later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madagascar_Plan

[nomadbrah]

(12-31-2016 10:42 AM)ivansirko Wrote:  

(12-31-2016 10:31 AM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

Even the mainstream historians allege that the Holocaust was planned out only during and after the Wansee conference.

Which makes the above a total falsehood.

Auschwitz was built in 1940. When it first took in prisoners did it not server as an extermination camp for prisoners? And did those exterminations occur before 1942 (before the conference you spoke of)?

Seems like you are not telling the whole story nomad.

There were no doubt killings in Auschwitz from the beginnings, but there is no proof of organized mass murder - and no one claims it - as ordered from the top down of the Nazi leadership until after Wansee (as alleged by mainstream) historians. If something happened at Auschwitz, then it was SS acting alone.

[Paracelsus]

(12-31-2016 10:31 AM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

(12-31-2016 10:26 AM)ivansirko Wrote:  

If the Holocaust is to be "denied", then is the below a lie?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold_Pilecki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold%27s_Report

https://witoldsreport.blogspot.com/2008/...rt-by.html

Pilecki and what happened to him came out publicly after the fall of the Berlin Wall. The worst part is the Allies knew what was going on and didn't bomb the rail station to Auschwitz.

A conversation about how much "Jews have been milking the Holocaust teet" should be separated from "is the Holocaust real"?

Yes the Holocaust is real. Yes, not all were Jewish. Yes most likely 11 million people were summarily executed and chances are of those who died 6 million were Jews. The Soviets also had concentration camps and killed far more people before WWII (numerically) than during the Holocaust and that also involved "who you were at the time" but we dont have "memorials to the death of Communism". THAT bothers me more than anything discussed related to the Holocaust.

This is a good example of misleading information:

Quote:

During World War II, he volunteered for a Polish resistance operation to get imprisoned in the Auschwitz death camp in order to gather intelligence and escape. While in the camp, Pilecki organized a resistance movement and as early as 1941, informed the Western Allies of Nazi Germany's Auschwitz atrocities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference

Quote:

The Wannsee Conference (German: Wannseekonferenz) was a meeting of senior government officials of Nazi Germany and SS leaders, held in the Berlin suburb of Wannsee on 20 January 1942.

Even the mainstream historians allege that the Holocaust was planned out only during and after the Wansee conference.

Which makes the above a total falsehood.

It is not. Read Pilecki's full report, which covers the years 1940 through to about 1943. Auschwitz was first constructed in April 1940. Pilecki allowed himself to be arrested in September 1940. At that point, Auschwitz was being used to house mainly Polish prisoners, and Pilecki's account speaks to the sorts of torture and murder that was going on against them at that point. Pilecki organised a resistance movement within Auschwitz and was getting reports of what was going on in there out as early as 1940. The Polish home government began passing these reports on to the British government in 1941. Meanwhile, Pilecki's account continues as a contemporaneous account of conditions in the camp from 1940 onward... aaaaaaand, when he gets to 1942, his accounts refer to thousands of Jews coming into the camp ... that is, right after the Wansee Conference as you describe, in January 1942. Pilecki escaped Auschwitz in April 1943.

Pilecki's report provides an estimate, such as it is, of those who died in Auschwitz:

"Here I quote the number of people who died in Oświęcim.
When I was leaving Oświęcim, I remembered a serial number 121 thousand and some. There were about 23 thousand of those alive, of such ones who had departed in transports or been released. About 97 thousand numbered prisoners died.
It had nothing to do with the number of people, who had been gassed and burnt in masses, unrecorded. Basing on estimations done by those who worked close to that commando, over 2 million such people died.
I quoted that number cautiously, not to overestimate; the daily quoted numbers should rather be discussed in detail.
Colleagues, who were there and witnessed gassings of eight thousand people a day, quote the number of plus/minus five million people."

Again, these are estimates, but that's 2 million gassed and burnt at Auschwitz alone. And that was still in 1943, a good year or more before liberation.

Pilecki was also not a Commie who, after the war, made up this shit to benefit the Russians (as a lot of Poles who turned to Communism either willingly or out of pragmatism did). Pilecki was collecting evidence on Russian atrocities against Poles after the war, at least until the Russians arrested him, had a show trial in 1948, and executed him. His last words to his wife are reported as: " "I cannot live. They killed me. Because Oświęcim [Auschwitz] compared with them was just a trifle."

[ivansirko]

(12-31-2016 10:54 AM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

There were no doubt killings in Auschwitz from the beginnings, but there is no proof of organized mass murder - and no one claims it - as ordered from the top down of the Nazi leadership until after Wansee (as alleged by mainstream) historians. If something happened at Auschwitz, then it was SS acting alone.

But you referred to everything (I presume in the Pilecki report) as a lie based on dates but that line of thinking does not follow. The SS doesn't act alone. And the Nazis were exterminating (killing) before 1942 those they didnt like...under orders.

Wannsee was a conference focused on Jews outside of Germany proper for extermination. After the conference, for instance, Germany demanded the Bulgarian King give up its Jews. Before the conference the Nazis were exterminating at Auschwitz.

[ladderff]

(12-31-2016 05:25 AM)Parzival Wrote:  

Rudolf Höss, leader of Auschwitz made some remarks about the numbers of people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolf_H%C3%B6ss

Quote:

[truncated]

From the same article:

Quote:

In the last days of the war, Himmler advised Höss to disguise himself among German Navy personnel. He evaded arrest for nearly a year. When captured by British troops on 11 March 1946 in Gottrupel, he was disguised as a gardener and called himself Franz Lang.[28] His wife, who feared that her son, Klaus, would be shipped off to the Soviet Union to be imprisoned or tortured, had told the British where he was.[29] The British force that captured Höss was led by Hanns Alexander, a young Jewish man from Berlin who was forced to flee to England with his entire family during the rise of Nazi Germany.[30] Höss initially denied his identity until Alexander noticed his wedding ring and demanded to inspect it. Höss refused to remove it, claiming it was stuck. But when Alexander threatened to cut his finger off, Höss removed the ring. It had the names Rudolf and Hedwig inscribed inside.[28] After being questioned and beaten with axe handles by the soldiers, Höss confessed his real identity.[28][31]

I think that about settles it: never getting married.

[nomadbrah]

(12-31-2016 11:01 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

(12-31-2016 10:31 AM)nomadbrah Wrote:  

(12-31-2016 10:26 AM)ivansirko Wrote:  

If the Holocaust is to be "denied", then is the below a lie?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold_Pilecki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold%27s_Report

https://witoldsreport.blogspot.com/2008/...rt-by.html

Pilecki and what happened to him came out publicly after the fall of the Berlin Wall. The worst part is the Allies knew what was going on and didn't bomb the rail station to Auschwitz.

A conversation about how much "Jews have been milking the Holocaust teet" should be separated from "is the Holocaust real"?

Yes the Holocaust is real. Yes, not all were Jewish. Yes most likely 11 million people were summarily executed and chances are of those who died 6 million were Jews. The Soviets also had concentration camps and killed far more people before WWII (numerically) than during the Holocaust and that also involved "who you were at the time" but we dont have "memorials to the death of Communism". THAT bothers me more than anything discussed related to the Holocaust.

This is a good example of misleading information:

Quote:

During World War II, he volunteered for a Polish resistance operation to get imprisoned in the Auschwitz death camp in order to gather intelligence and escape. While in the camp, Pilecki organized a resistance movement and as early as 1941, informed the Western Allies of Nazi Germany's Auschwitz atrocities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference

Quote:

The Wannsee Conference (German: Wannseekonferenz) was a meeting of senior government officials of Nazi Germany and SS leaders, held in the Berlin suburb of Wannsee on 20 January 1942.

Even the mainstream historians allege that the Holocaust was planned out only during and after the Wansee conference.

Which makes the above a total falsehood.

It is not. Read Pilecki's full report, which covers the years 1940 through to about 1943. Auschwitz was first constructed in April 1940. Pilecki allowed himself to be arrested in September 1940. At that point, Auschwitz was being used to house mainly Polish prisoners, and Pilecki's account speaks to the sorts of torture and murder that was going on against them at that point. Pilecki organised a resistance movement within Auschwitz and was getting reports of what was going on in there out as early as 1940. The Polish home government began passing these reports on to the British government in 1941. Meanwhile, Pilecki's account continues as a contemporaneous account of conditions in the camp from 1940 onward... aaaaaaand, when he gets to 1942, his accounts refer to thousands of Jews coming into the camp ... that is, right after the Wansee Conference as you describe, in January 1942. Pilecki escaped Auschwitz in April 1943.

Pilecki's report provides an estimate, such as it is, of those who died in Auschwitz:

"Here I quote the number of people who died in Oświęcim.
When I was leaving Oświęcim, I remembered a serial number 121 thousand and some. There were about 23 thousand of those alive, of such ones who had departed in transports or been released. About 97 thousand numbered prisoners died.
It had nothing to do with the number of people, who had been gassed and burnt in masses, unrecorded. Basing on estimations done by those who worked close to that commando, over 2 million such people died.
I quoted that number cautiously, not to overestimate; the daily quoted numbers should rather be discussed in detail.
Colleagues, who were there and witnessed gassings of eight thousand people a day, quote the number of plus/minus five million people."

Again, these are estimates, but that's 2 million gassed and burnt at Auschwitz alone. And that was still in 1943, a good year or more before liberation.

Pilecki was also not a Commie who, after the war, made up this shit to benefit the Russians (as a lot of Poles who turned to Communism either willingly or out of pragmatism did). Pilecki was collecting evidence on Russian atrocities against Poles after the war, at least until the Russians arrested him, had a show trial in 1948, and executed him. His last words to his wife are reported as: " "I cannot live. They killed me. Because Oświęcim [Auschwitz] compared with them was just a trifle."

This gets more and more fanciful.

So now the nazis build Auschwitz complete with gas chambers - to kill Polish political prisoners? Why the need for gas chambers for that?

Besides, I see no credible proof of this report being authentic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold%27s_Report

Quote:

The first publication of Witold's Report took place in 2000, 55 years after the war.[citation needed] An English translation was published in 2015 under the title The Auschwitz Volunteer: Beyond Bravery.[16]

Eli Wiesel was a liar.

Anne Frank's diary is a fraud.

Show me credible of this report being contemporary.

[Teedub]

(12-31-2016 10:26 AM)ivansirko Wrote:  

If the Holocaust is to be "denied", then is the below a lie?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold_Pilecki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold%27s_Report

https://witoldsreport.blogspot.com/2008/...rt-by.html

Pilecki and what happened to him came out publicly after the fall of the Berlin Wall. The worst part is the Allies knew what was going on and didn't bomb the rail station to Auschwitz.

Thanks for sharing this. What a hero Pilecki is. I've studied Nazi Germany both academically and for a hobby and have never heard of him until now.

As for this thread, I've read enough first hand literature ranging from Speer's diaries and private letters to commander/prisoner testimonies to know what's what. I find it amusing to see deniers dismiss the words of people who actually committed the crimes. It's like when progressives make up reasons for why ISIS did something when ISIS themselves say "we did it to kill unbelievers".

There was a thread a year ago or so about some 90-odd year old SS guy who was put on trial and I laid out my arguments there. Can't be bothered going over the same ground as people who think the gas chambers are a fabrication won't ever change their minds.

[scorpion]

(12-31-2016 05:26 AM)britchard Wrote:  

If you are suggesting that the Holocaust was a hoax, then you are suggesting that thousands of American, Canadian and British soldiers from the war are all liars.

According to official Holocaust historians, all of the "death camps" were in Eastern Europe and were liberated by the Russians, not the Allies. Allied soldiers stumbled into concentration camps (literally camps to "concentrate" Jews in one place, the term is painted as sinister today but we did the same to the Japanese) that had been ravaged by starvation and a Typhus epidemic in the closing months of the war. So if they say they saw piles of emaciated corpses being burned in pits? Truth. That's what you would expect in a camp wracked by starvation and infectious disease. If they claim to have seen gas chambers or evidence of gassing? An absolute lie that Holocaust historians themselves would dispute.

(12-31-2016 05:26 AM)britchard Wrote:  

I'd be interested to know if any of the deniers on this forum have ever met a holocaust survivor? Well I have, and he told me he believed that the 6 million figure was for the total number of holocaust victims, NOT the total number of Jews. He estimated it was around 3-4 million Jews and the rest were mostly just Slavs. The disabled and gypsies only made up a small number of the murders.

Have you ever stopped to consider how strange it is that there were so many "survivors" of a state-sponsored, industrial scale, final solution genocide? And these "survivors" were not people who slipped through the cracks and avoided the camps. No, they were always prisoners in a death camp who somehow did not die. How do we account for this? Were the Nazis so inept at genocide that somehow they failed to kill millions of unarmed people sitting inside prison camps? The reality is that people lie and exaggerate. Google Holocaust survivor fake, Holocaust survivor lie, Holocaust survivor fraud, etc... There's a news story about it at least once a month. And these are just the ones we hear about. Example: http://lancasteronline.com/news/local/ad...d0682.html

(12-31-2016 05:26 AM)britchard Wrote:  

Is it really that crazy to think that over 6 years (2192 days) that they killed 6 million people? That's around 2740 people killed a day. Is that so unimaginable now?

According to Holocaust scholars, the alleged gas chambers were not operational at Belzec until March of 1942. Further, most of these "gas chambers" are alleged to have used Diesel exhaust from Soviet tank engines as the killing mechanism (by inducing carbon monoxide poisoning), which is one of the most glaring holes in the Holocaust narrative, because Diesel exhaust fumes have a low CO content and would make for a woefully inefficient choice as an execution gas. See here: http://www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/fndieselgc.html

[Jim Kirk]

Before responding to the some of the points made in this thread - let me state that this thread should be locked and removed for a number of reasons - the greatest of which is that unless Roosh wants to come back to the United States and never go back to Central Europe - threads like this will get him banged up and prosecuted in Germany or any number of Eastern European countries for anything from 'defaming the dead' to trying to reactivate the Nazi party. This is for simply hosting this forum. I figured that WW2 revisionism or the J.Question would arise on these forums but given the pitfalls in getting a reputation for truly open discussion of these subjects and the difficulty in adequately and properly discussing these subjects (the posts in this thread are largely terrible) as the topics are subject to so much false information, that it would be best to direct people to other dedicated revisionist forums and academic books and leave these subjects alone here. If you all disagree, then I say go full bore on them but you'll never know an arrest warrant it out on you in Europe until its too late. Another point - in the space of reading let's say, fifty essays on feminism consisting of about 4 to 6 pages each, you can get at least a working grasp of why feminism destroys the family. When dealing with WW2 revisionism or Talmud - you are in the hands of lawyers and even the simplest topic, like defining 'Holocaust' (for example - are we taking about the Holocaust ™, the Holocau$t, the Holocaust, the holocaust, or a holocaust, or the Holocaust of (firebombing) Dresden, etc. You have to avoid even using this term as it simply represents an American commercialized retail 'brand' that is, in and of itself, a 'trick' to reframe any debate or discussion regarding Judaic suffering during WW2.

For those two reasons, and given the guys that know me and what I do for a living and I tell you I have met and conversed with historians that have been jailed in Europe, or had their printing pressed blown up with explosives in Manhattan, traveling into Europe is a dangerous proposition. I have a very long research background into these two topics going all the way back to High School

[Nascimento]

(12-31-2016 10:26 AM)ivansirko Wrote:  

If the Holocaust is to be "denied", then is the below a lie?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold_Pilecki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witold%27s_Report

https://witoldsreport.blogspot.com/2008/...rt-by.html

Pilecki and what happened to him came out publicly after the fall of the Berlin Wall. The worst part is the Allies knew what was going on and didn't bomb the rail station to Auschwitz.

I visited Auschwitz and I was told by the guides there that even though the Allies knew about what was happening, they couldn't realistically put a stop to it at that stage in the war.

Any bombing raid on a rail station or railroad track wasn't proven successful because any damage would be immediately repaired in a matter of days. Not to mention that bombing raids over the region was incredibly risky as it was deep in German territory.

The solution was to bomb the gas chambers themselves, because rebuilding a destroyed gas chamber isn't as easy as repairing a broken railroad or shuttling prisoners from another station. Problem was, the risk of killing POW's was so high since it was impossible to be accurate with the assault. Those in charge didn't want that mistake on their conscience, so they mostly discarded it (I think they did do at least one raid on the place, but my memory fails me).

[SirTimothy]

While I believe that lots of innocent people died in German camps, the official story sounds full of holes.

The biggest thing that sounds wrong is the fact that it's illegal to even publicly question the holocaust in several countries. That alone gives me the feeling that something is being covered up.

Second, I know that in communist-controlled Poland, the official numbers stated that about 4 million people were killed in Auschwitz. Later the official number was changed to 1.5 million, then 1.1 million. Yet the "6 million Jews" overall number stays the same, before and after! And I have read American pre-1989 encyclopedias that prove it.

Third, the Allies allowed the Soviets to be a major part of the Nuremburg Trials, and many "confessions" concerning death camps were extracted through torture. How many of those confessions can be considered trustworthy?

There are always more details, but those are the main things that stick out to me. Again, I don't deny that innocent people suffered, but a lot of what is commonly taught sounds very fishy.

[John Michael Kane]

Personally, I've never really studied the Holocaust and don't nearly have the time to read the volumes upon volumes that have been written about it. I'm not an amateur historian.

That being said, I find it unacceptable in any Western country that there should be an "official" narrative of history, sanctioned by threat of imprisonment if you disagree. Scientific inquiry, historical inquiry and all other manners of obtaining the truth, regardless of the outcome finally produces (in this case 5m, 6m, 8m deaths?) must be protected at all costs.

It is unacceptable that it is illegal in parts of the world to have an opinion on a historical event.

[Jim Kirk]

With respect to the Wansee conference - first - it is important to get a litte grossly simplified background on German blood purity and racial theory. I can't tell you why, Was it because Weimer Germany was so liberal, or that citizens in Germany were just becoming less religious and more bohemian or liberal, but Jedaics and Germans were intermarrying at a larger and larger pace heading into WW2. When the Nazi racial purity laws were enacted, the Reichstag had the full support of the German Orthodox Jewish Union. The end result, or final desire of the German war plan was that Germany proper would be occupied primarily by Germans who could prove their racial lineage to a sufficient percentage. Just outside the Reich proper there would be a General area under Reich control (parts of Poland, East Europe etc.) which would have preferred 'stock' and then the Russian territories that would be administered under a German governor. Wansee discussed moving German Judaics, both remaining inside the Reich proper, the General area, and Russian territories to a central location, would they be allowed in the General Gouverment area?, the Russian territories?, or in the case of the Eichmann plan, all moved to Madagascar and given internal autonomy under a German authority. Wansee concluded that the 'Final Solution' - in other words choosing between these plans, would be left to be decided until after the conclusion of WW2. There are no transcripts, recordings or other documents from Wansee stating that killing every Judaic person come across by the German army was a 'plan' or was even being contemplated.

With respect to historian David Irving - he was imprisoned in AUSTRIA, not Switzerland and held in solitary confinement with a young daughter at home and charged with having violated Austria's "banning law" which forbids the reactivation of the Nazi Party. Complete bullshit and Irving was actually lured to Austria to speak at University club and setup. Such is the penchant for Judaic revenge.

David Irving, despite being considered a revisionist, was actually the first one to disclose massive amounts of first hand documentation or Nazi atrocities against Judaic people - including machine gunning into pits, having entire train loads of Judaic people shipped out of Berlin destined for 'special treatment' in Poland, as well as all the murders the SS and Hitler ordered of political rivals including peaceful and honest men that could have brought Germany into an almost Renaissance period. Although Irving has yet to publish his final findings, it would appear that he has found the first concrete proof of limited sized scale homicidal gassing of civilian non combatants in smaller concentration camps on the Eastern Front. Read that correct, because aside from that there IS NO CONTEMPORANEOUS EVIDENCE OF HOMICIDAL GASSING IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS.

[sterling_archer]

I apologize, Switzerland was stuck in my mind so I said that.

[chakalaka]

"In Nazi extermination camps: according to Polish Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) researchers, 2,830,000 Jews were murdered in the Nazi death camps (500,000 Belzec; 150,000 Sobibor; 850,000 Treblinka; 150,000 Chełmno; 1,100,000 Auschwitz; 80,000 Majdanek).[194] Raul Hilberg puts the Jewish death toll in the death camps, including Romanian Transnistria, at 3.0 million.[195]
In the USSR by the Einsatzgruppen: Raul Hilberg puts the Jewish death toll in the area of the mobile killing groups at 1.4 million.[195]
Aggravated deaths in the Ghettos of Nazi-occupied Europe: Raul Hilberg puts the Jewish death toll in the Ghettos at 700,000.[195]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

With this being said I´ve been to Auschwitz and didn´t felt the chivers down my spine people describe. I´m more affected by attending church or goint to a cemetery. Went to Poland in a stag party and we passed by Arbeit Macht Frei camp. Even made some jokes about some woman photos. They were too ugly to be alive. So we were actually lucky for them to be killed. My group didn´t find it amusing. But it did light the atmosphere though.
Dislike when a narrative is being shoved in my throat without debate. Nothing is beyond debate. Everything is debatable. For me it looked like a prison. Were people died like in many other prisons.

Jews have been persecuted for a long time, by different countries. Surprising for me is only the poor jews and some middle upper class got killed during Shoah. The top jews. Exactly the ones Hitler raged about. All fled safely to UK and US with few exceptions. Innocent people were killed. Small jews living they´re simple life. As others. This should never be repeated. Under no circumstances. Killing someone for their religion is an obscenity. The way to fight jews shortcomings is to burn communism. Communism is filth.

My gut feeling is the numbers are exaggerated. But believe in jews persecution during WWII because there´s sufficient evidence proving this. And only an idiot would say they were not persecuted. They were. The extend of it is debatable.

(The use of number 6 in many WWII events also has some symbology attached to it. 6M jews, 6 years of war, the D-Day was on the 6th. The 666.)

But if the numbers can be wrong the existence of a mass murder is pretty much proven in my book.

[scorpion]

I will start out by saying that I have spent hundreds of hours researching this topic. That includes reading a large amount of both mainstream and revisionist scholarship. I realize this is a very controversial subject and that my views here will probably upset some people, and that some people will lose respect for me for posting this. However, I am loyal only to the truth. I believe these things because I am convinced of the truth of my research. If you disagree with me, then please, by all means correct me and change my mind. I am willing to have a debate over the facts. Now, my conclusions based on the sum of all my research into this topic:

1) The official Holocaust™ narrative ("Six million Jews were systematically murdered in gas chambers and their bodies incinerated") as it it taught and commonly believed is false. It simply did not happen. Period. There were no gas chambers.

2) What actually did happen: Millions of Jews were rounded up and sent to concentration camps both within Germany and in the occupied East. They were used for free labor during the war. Conditions during the end of the war resulted in mass starvation and disease in some of the camps. This is where the terrible and iconic Holocaust pictures come from (although no one ever stops to think how people who were supposedly gassed within hours of getting off the train had months to sit around and become emaciated through starvation).

3) Stories of gas chambers emerged and were passed around by hysterical prisoners. Rumors went wild. That's very typical during wartime and in low information environment.

4) Following the war, the persecution of the Jews (which inarguably happened - they did suffer tremendously under the Nazis) was wildly exaggerated and the Holocaust narrative was pushed as justification for the establishment of a Zionist state in Palestine. The Holocaust thus became the justification and the founding myth for the State of Israel. This is the most important thing to understand. This is the motive behind the lies and distortion, and is the reason that Holocaust revision is criminal today. If the Holocaust narrative did not happen as they say it did, the Jews know that the entire justification for the existence of Israel is called into question, and the very real crimes they committed during the 1948 war (and the crimes they continue to perpetuate today against the Palestinians) will be inexcusable.

5) There is no Holocaust conspiracy. At this point almost 100% of people who push the official Holocaust narrative actually believe it wholeheartedly. The Holocaust functions as a quasi-religious belief in today's secular society. It is especially important among secular Jews as a socially binding belief. I want to emphasize that again: the Holocaust is a religious belief that binds Jews together. With the invention of the Holocaust myth, the Jews essentially turned themselves as a group into their own Christ - the six million Jews who were sacrificed in order that the rest of the Jews might live (Israel). This is the other reason why the Holocaust narrative is defended so vociferously: it is not a matter of historical debate for these people. It is their religion.

6) Laws against Holocaust denial give the game away: obviously you do not need to pass laws to question historical events. That's like passing a law against questioning the sunrise. You only pass laws to stop people from asking heretical questions. And being a religious belief, any questioning of the Holocaust is therefore heresy and is treated as such.

7) Most people in the West today - including non-Jews - have been utterly brainwashed to regard the Holocaust in religious terms and never question any aspect of it. This programming runs extremely deep. It's very difficult to get people to discuss this topic rationally without getting angry. You would think that telling people that six million innocent Jews did not actually get murdered in horrific fashion would be good news. But you would be wrong. In fact, if you tell people that, they get extremely upset and call you an anti-Semite.

[sterling_archer]

Scorpion, is it possible to dismantle Holocaust as a institution and "religion"?

[Nascimento]

Here's to someone hopefully disputing Scorpion's latest post with some well-thought out points. I don't care who's right or wrong, nor about coming to one concrete conclusion.

I just want to make sense out of all of this, without blinding filters.

[Teedub]

Scorpion, how do you discount all the accounts from Nazis and SS officers etc? For example, Hoess, who tells of Himmler visiting Auschwitz and witnessing one "processing" (arrival, categorisation, gassing, burning) from start to finish. Obviously, those that could work did, but those that were unfit were supposedly killed pretty quickly. These Nazi offers are proud of what they did, in a very German way, as if they were building a great bridge of something. Therefore, I see no reason that they would llie about it. I don't believe these were forced testimonies either - although I can agree with others that perhaps they were encouraged to exaggerate the numbers. There's simply too much first hand anecdotal evidence for me to believe there were no gas chambers.

This is Hoess testimony, it's long but worth a read if anyone wants to know what the actual process was for victims at Auschwitz (or at least the official version in keeping with the thread).

http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ft...stest.html

Quote:

DR. KAUFFMANN: Did you yourself ever feel pity with the victims, thinking of your own family and children?

HOESS: Yes.

DR. KAUFFMANN: How was it possible for you to carry out these actions in spite of this?

HOESS: In view of all these doubts which I had, the only one and decisive argument was the strict order and the reason given for it by the Reichsfáhrer Himmler.

DR. KAUFFMANN: I ask you whether Himmler inspected the camp and convinced himself, too, of the process of annihilation?

HOESS: Yes. Himmler visited the camp in 1942 and he watched in detail one processing from beginning to end.

DR. KAUFMANN: Does the same apply to Eichmann?

HOESS: Eichmann came repeatedly to Auschwitz and was intimately acquainted with the proceedings.

[kavi]

I dont know about the holocaust but Schindlers List was probably the shittest movie I have had the misfortune of watching.

[Mercenary]

This is what the gas chambers & crematoria at Auschwitz looked like FROM THE OUTSIDE while they were functional.








This is what the undressing rooms, crematoria & gas chambers at Auschwitz look like today. The Germans destroyed them just before retreating from the Soviet Russian Army in 1944-1945. What you see today is mostly the basement rooms. You are not allowed to walk inside them.















Architectual plans in German language:






Detail of the basement area in German language:





This aerial shot below shows it best.
The long horizontal section on the left is where people went down the small set of stairs (far left) to the basement and got undressed for "hygienic delousing".
The smaller vertical section in the middle is the basement "shower room" (gas chamber)
The horizontal section on the right is the crematoria which was on the ground floor, not the basement.



There were at least 4 of these at Auschwitz.
They were in special fenced off sections at the extreme end of the camps near the woods
It was difficult to see what was going on over there even if you were a prisoner that had been there for a long time.



Model in the Auschwitz museum.
Left is the underground undressing area, right the underground gas chamber. Above the house and crematoria.
The model has used way too many victims at one time. No way would they have killed that many people in one single gassing...you would need way too many armed guards to control that kind of crowd.

[HighSpeed_LowDrag]

(12-31-2016 12:57 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

I will start out by saying that I have spent hundreds of hours researching this topic. That includes reading a large amount of both mainstream and revisionist scholarship. I realize this is a very controversial subject and that my views here will probably upset some people, and that some people will lose respect for me for posting this. However, I am loyal only to the truth. I believe these things because I am convinced of the truth of my research. If you disagree with me, then please, by all means correct me and change my mind. I am willing to have a debate over the facts.

How do you account for the Posen speeches of Heinrich Himmler, where he, on multiple occasions, explicitly refers to "die Ausrottung des jüdischen Volkes", or "the extermination of the Jewish people"?

Quote:

Ich meine die Judenevakuierung, die Ausrottung des jüdischen Volkes. Es gehört zu den Dingen, die man leicht ausspricht. "Das jüdische Volk wird ausgerottet", sagt Ihnen jeder Parteigenosse, "ganz klar, steht in unserem Programm drin, Aus...schaltung der Juden, Ausrottung, machen wir, pfah!, Kleinigkeit".

I am talking about the "Jewish evacuation": the extermination of the Jewish people. It is one of those things that is easily said. "The Jewish people is being exterminated," every Party member will tell you, "perfectly clear, it's part of our plans, we're eliminating the Jews, exterminating them, ha!, a small matter."

Or the repeated references to exterminating Jews in the diaries of Joseph Goebbels? As an example, his entry for 12 December 1941 provides evidence Hitler knew about and ordered the extermination of the Jews of Europe:

Quote:

Bezüglich der Judenfrage ist der Führer entschlossen, reinen Tisch zu machen. Er hat den Juden prophezeit, daß, wenn sie noch einmal einen Weltkrieg herbeiführen würden, sie dabei ihre Vernichtung erleben würden. Das ist keine Phrase gewesen. Der Weltkrieg ist da, die Vernichtung des Judentums muß die notwendige Folge sein.

Regarding the Jewish Question, the Führer has decided to make a clean sweep. He prophesied to the Jews that, if they yet again brought about a world war, they would experience their own annihilation. That was not just a phrase. The world war is here, and the annihilation of the Jews must be the necessary consequence.

[Teedub]

Furthermore, here's that thread about the 94yr old SS officer I mentioned earlier, where this topic was discussed at length:

thread-49084.html

The officer in question was only outed after fighting against some of the arguments made in the thread, I.E that it didn't happen. Which would be a bizarre thing to do to yourself if it didn't.

Quote:

He had always refused to talk about Auschwitz even to his own family but now he wanted to give witness against the Holocaust deniers, such as friends at his local philately club, who had insisted the camps were all a lie. That was why he said on film: "I would like you to believe me. I saw the gas chambers. I saw the crematoria. I saw the open fires. I was on the ramp when the selections took place. I would like you to believe that these atrocities happened, because I was there."

I had a few arguments in there if anyone cares to read it, to save me making the same points again and again. Specifically about first hand accounts such as the Hoess testimony and later revelations that came, for example, from Albert Speer's private letters to a friend in 1971:

Quote:

In the letter to Jeanty, written on December 23, 1971, Speer wrote: "There is no doubt - I was present as Himmler announced on October 6, 1943 that all Jews would be killed...Who would believe me that I suppressed this, that it would have been easier to have written all of this in my memoirs?"