[Libertas]

https://www.yang2020.com/policies/southe...-security/

Doesn't sound like Yang wants any kind of barrier on the border at all. Just the usual "technology," which we know isn't an effective deterrent and despite all border security experts saying you need it. Though he does say he'll work with those people so who knows.

There's always a bad.

[MrLemon]

(03-08-2019 02:51 AM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

Fuck, if you go looking there are a lot of really solid arguments for Yang.

[url=https://twitter.com/MartianRepost/status/1102758963303583744][/url]

I think we should all post our favorite 20-years-in-the-future science fiction portrayal of economic and social collapse.

I vote for an equal mixture of:

- Snow Crash
- Ready Player One
- The Running Man (not the crappy movie but the original novella by Steven King, which was excellent)

[eradicator]

I liked Snow Crash, and didn't think Running Man was a crappy movie but I may be mixing it up with Logan's Run

[SamuelBRoberts]

(03-08-2019 01:41 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  

I think we should all post our favorite 20-years-in-the-future science fiction portrayal of economic and social collapse.

I vote for an equal mixture of:

- Snow Crash
- Ready Player One
- The Running Man (not the crappy movie but the original novella by Steven King, which was excellent)

My future is me in the Laotian mountains with my Southeast Asian waifu, living a life of quiet contemplation and translating the complete works of the Japanese literary masters into English, paid for entirely by my #YangBucks that were earned by illegal immigrants slaving away in shitty jobs.

[MrLemon]

(03-08-2019 10:44 AM)Libertas Wrote:  

Yang is ultimately going to have to square the circle with immigration and automation.

If automation is coming, and it is, there's much less need of immigration of any kind, much less for the kinds of repetitive, low skilled work that most immigrants are taking. Automation increases the need for the RAISE Act, rather than lowers it.

You can't have it both ways. If he can square the circle he'll be in a better spot, but immigration is a sacrament in the Democratic party so he can't do that and have any chance of winning a primary there.

American politics right now isn't quite ready for a guy like Yang, but he really should go Republican. Market fundamentalism is decreasing there (though it's still strong), while the Democratic Party is the party of sacraments and the tech overlords that he wants to undercut.

Can someone like him realign the Democrats? I have my doubts. The guy isn't a force of nature like Trump is. He needs people on his campaign that know how to sell.

It's much bigger than immigration. With the levels of automation that we already have in China and the US (and soon in Vietnam and all the rest) we need to shut down global trade AND shut down trade in software development or virtual services as well. Every nation must not only control immigration, but it must tightly control goods and services, becoming a virtual walled garden. No more buying software from India. The alternative is, poor countries absolutely destroy rich countries -- a virtual Camp of the Saints.

However almost nobody is willing t o accept this reality, except countries like Japan and France where it's already baked into their culture. This USA is addicted to cheap overseas software development like a crack addict. Getting off that addiction will be wrenching.

[MrLemon]

(03-08-2019 01:44 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

(03-08-2019 01:41 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  

I think we should all post our favorite 20-years-in-the-future science fiction portrayal of economic and social collapse.

I vote for an equal mixture of:

- Snow Crash
- Ready Player One
- The Running Man (not the crappy movie but the original novella by Steven King, which was excellent)

My future is me in the Laotian mountains with my Southeast Asian waifu, living a life of quiet contemplation and translating the complete works of the Japanese literary masters into English, paid for entirely by my #YangBucks that were earned by illegal immigrants slaving away in shitty jobs.

Neal Stephenson, the author of Snow Crash, could make your scenario into a great sci fi novel.

[JohnKreese]

(03-08-2019 01:04 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

(03-08-2019 01:01 PM)JohnKreese Wrote:  

I'm not getting how UBI would ATTRACT more (illegal) immigration. If only citizens are eligible for it, there wouldn't be any benefit for illegals for some time (well, minus anchor babies). Instead they would be subjected to a VAT (in addition to existing sales taxes) on everything they bought without any tangible benefit. If anything it would seem like a pretty good deterrent.

That's a good point! Hadn't considered that!

So #YangBucks are a tax on illegals that goes to pay for the natives to have better lifestyles! Every hour some illegal spends working in a hot, shitty factory job, some of that money he earns is going to me, and he sees absolutely nothing for it!

Wow, it's even better than I thought!

I wouldn't get too excited.

In this hypothetical scenario, even if UBI could be kept from the illegals (whether citizenship became harder to obtain, legal status without citizenship was the highest they could go, etc.), give it two or three election cycles before a hard leftist is in, has congress, and by then has a more favorable SCOTUS.

Not only would they roll out UBI for illegals (or make citizenship a snap), but also...well...you think that the calls for reparations are bad now. Wait until, these demands are perfectly quantifiable ("I have been in the country for xxx years, the previous policy blocking my RIGHTFUL citizenship cheated me out of yyy years of UBI...pay me!").

Your head will explode.

[SamuelBRoberts]

(03-08-2019 03:55 PM)JohnKreese Wrote:  

(03-08-2019 01:04 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

(03-08-2019 01:01 PM)JohnKreese Wrote:  

I'm not getting how UBI would ATTRACT more (illegal) immigration. If only citizens are eligible for it, there wouldn't be any benefit for illegals for some time (well, minus anchor babies). Instead they would be subjected to a VAT (in addition to existing sales taxes) on everything they bought without any tangible benefit. If anything it would seem like a pretty good deterrent.

That's a good point! Hadn't considered that!

So #YangBucks are a tax on illegals that goes to pay for the natives to have better lifestyles! Every hour some illegal spends working in a hot, shitty factory job, some of that money he earns is going to me, and he sees absolutely nothing for it!

Wow, it's even better than I thought!

I wouldn't get too excited.

In this hypothetical scenario, even if UBI could be kept from the illegals (whether citizenship became harder to obtain, legal status without citizenship was the highest they could go, etc.), give it two or three election cycles before a hard leftist is in, has congress, and by then has a more favorable SCOTUS.

Not only would they roll out UBI for illegals (or make citizenship a snap), but also...well...you think that the calls for reparations are bad now. Wait until, these demands are perfectly quantifiable ("I have been in the country for xxx years, the previous policy blocking my RIGHTFUL citizenship cheated me out of yyy years of UBI...pay me!").

Your head will explode.

Hmm, I can see where you're coming from but I don't think so. #YangBucks are essentially social security rolled out for the entire population. Think of how protective seniors are of their social security. It's the "third rail" of American politics for a reason. In the same way, anything that threatens #YangBucks, like an easy path to citizenship for illegals, would become very difficult to get through congress regardless of what administration there is.

[Libertas]

(03-08-2019 03:55 PM)JohnKreese Wrote:  

(03-08-2019 01:04 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

(03-08-2019 01:01 PM)JohnKreese Wrote:  

I'm not getting how UBI would ATTRACT more (illegal) immigration. If only citizens are eligible for it, there wouldn't be any benefit for illegals for some time (well, minus anchor babies). Instead they would be subjected to a VAT (in addition to existing sales taxes) on everything they bought without any tangible benefit. If anything it would seem like a pretty good deterrent.

That's a good point! Hadn't considered that!

So #YangBucks are a tax on illegals that goes to pay for the natives to have better lifestyles! Every hour some illegal spends working in a hot, shitty factory job, some of that money he earns is going to me, and he sees absolutely nothing for it!

Wow, it's even better than I thought!

I wouldn't get too excited.

In this hypothetical scenario, even if UBI could be kept from the illegals (whether citizenship became harder to obtain, legal status without citizenship was the highest they could go, etc.), give it two or three election cycles before a hard leftist is in, has congress, and by then has a more favorable SCOTUS.

Not only would they roll out UBI for illegals (or make citizenship a snap), but also...well...you think that the calls for reparations are bad now. Wait until, these demands are perfectly quantifiable ("I have been in the country for xxx years, the previous policy blocking my RIGHTFUL citizenship cheated me out of yyy years of UBI...pay me!").

Your head will explode.

Exactly. Illegals have been given citizenship before and they're betting it will happen again. It isn't a stupid bet.

UBI IS going to act as a magnet for more immigration of all kinds. Immigration needs to be taken care of first.

[JohnKreese]

(03-08-2019 04:03 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

(03-08-2019 03:55 PM)JohnKreese Wrote:  

(03-08-2019 01:04 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

(03-08-2019 01:01 PM)JohnKreese Wrote:  

I'm not getting how UBI would ATTRACT more (illegal) immigration. If only citizens are eligible for it, there wouldn't be any benefit for illegals for some time (well, minus anchor babies). Instead they would be subjected to a VAT (in addition to existing sales taxes) on everything they bought without any tangible benefit. If anything it would seem like a pretty good deterrent.

That's a good point! Hadn't considered that!

So #YangBucks are a tax on illegals that goes to pay for the natives to have better lifestyles! Every hour some illegal spends working in a hot, shitty factory job, some of that money he earns is going to me, and he sees absolutely nothing for it!

Wow, it's even better than I thought!

I wouldn't get too excited.

In this hypothetical scenario, even if UBI could be kept from the illegals (whether citizenship became harder to obtain, legal status without citizenship was the highest they could go, etc.), give it two or three election cycles before a hard leftist is in, has congress, and by then has a more favorable SCOTUS.

Not only would they roll out UBI for illegals (or make citizenship a snap), but also...well...you think that the calls for reparations are bad now. Wait until, these demands are perfectly quantifiable ("I have been in the country for xxx years, the previous policy blocking my RIGHTFUL citizenship cheated me out of yyy years of UBI...pay me!").

Your head will explode.

Hmm, I can see where you're coming from but I don't think so. #YangBucks are essentially social security rolled out for the entire population. Think of how protective seniors are of their social security. It's the "third rail" of American politics for a reason. In the same way, anything that threatens #YangBucks, like an easy path to citizenship for illegals, would become very difficult to get through congress regardless of what administration there is.

Ohh, I don't think that the UBI would go away. Instead income taxes (possibly the VAT, but that would be too visible to lower-income people) would be raised in order to make up the difference (plus reparations). High earners would see their UBI check eaten up by higher income taxes while also getting squelched by the VAT/sales tax (and others) combo.

Ultimately, it would turn into any other type of welfare state program except worse because everyone would get the UBI check (hence eliminating the stigma associated with welfare programs), except the guy in the new 59% tax bracket would pay it (and more) right back while low-earners would be partying.

[Leonard D Neubache]

If people are going to jack up prices to account for the UBI then it's a perfect opportunity for all those conservative free-market capitalists to take the nation by storm and undercut the gougers.

Uncle Siam only cares about getting his products to market. He's not price-fixing to account for the UBI.

Who the UBI will really help are the rural Americans who have long since learned to live on real shoestring budgets. Not the kind of suffering where Sally Seattle has to buy normal dog food for her three pugs instead of artisnal vegan eco-chow. And if it collapses the Federal Government in a screaming tidal-wave of red ink then that's even better.

[The Black Knight]

When I posted my thoughts on Yang about 10 days ago, he had about 25k in donations (in amount of people; not dollars) He needs 65,000 by May 15 to be included in the democrat debates this summer.

The Rogan podcast blew things up for him big time. I wouldn't even know the guy at all if 911 (think it was him) posted the video but he is getting serious traction for someone this early in the cycle and with minimal/no traditional support (MSM, DNC, big money, etc).

He is at 52,000-ish right now and will likely break the 65k within weeks. Real grassroots democracy working? Amazing.

In other very important Yang news, he updated his illegal immigration platform: Pathway to Citizenship (Make Them Earn It). He had no real concrete details a week or so ago but now he has this:

Quote:

Problems to be Solved

1. 11+ million undocumented immigrants are currently living in the United States

2. While the vast majority of these immigrants aren’t a security risk, having that volume of individuals in this country that aren’t known to the US government is itself a security risk

3. It would be prohibitively expensive and disruptive to deport all these individuals

4. These individuals tried to circumvent the legal immigration system into the US, and any pathway to citizenship for them must reflect this fact.

[the following is the juicy bits]

As President, I will…

1. Secure the southern border and drastically decrease the number of illegal entries into the US

2. Provide a new tier of long-term permanent residency for anyone who has been here illegally for a substantial amount of time so that they can come out of the shadows and enter the formal economy and become full members of the community.

3. This new tier would permit individuals to work and stay in the country, provided they pay their taxes and don’t get convicted of a felony.

4. This tier would put them on a longer, eighteen-year path to citizenship (the same amount of time it takes those born in the US to get full citizenship rights) [don't like this line but whatever; I got my citizenship day fucking 1], reflecting our desire to bring them into our country but also their decision to circumvent legal immigration channels.

5. Invest heavily in an information campaign to inform immigrant communities of this new tier of residency, and deport any undocumented immigrant who doesn’t proactively enroll in the program

Source: https://www.yang2020.com/policies/pathwa...m-earn-it/

Goddamn, that is pretty fuckin awesome and reasonable for a democrat in 2019. Shit, this is just reasonable period.

18 years and no felonies? Don't get in the program, get the fuck out!

I can dig that (if it is actually enforced).

Think about it:

1. 18 years without citizenship would keep illegals out of presidential elections for 4 cycles. Most democrats want them voting as illegals right now and/or want to give them citizenship and voting rights right now.

2. The felony deal will get rid of the real scumbags and 18 years is a LONG dragnet to catch a lot of dirt bags.

3. If they don't get with the program, instead of just floating through life, they have to get the fuck out.

4. This answers a big question I had about UBI and illegals and the circumstances if/how they would get: Since these people won't be citizens, no 1000 bucks for them for 18 years! He says that illegals that have only been here for a "substantial amount of time" would qualify for the PR status; which implies he understands that there would be a mad rush of illegals to the US to get the free money if he won the election. And therefore, he needs to have a past time period qualifier to prevent the mad rush.

Big fear is this would get water down in Congress from 18 years to 5 or something. But the initial platform is solid and incredible for a democrat in 2019. Trump clearly has lost the will or ability to remove illegals on a mass scale and will probably get nothing done on this issue of significant substance except some partial wall built. So, given that the Trump base is majorly deflated and the demographics are working against the GOP, this is probably the realistic next best alternative with regards to illegals. It's WAY better than any other democrats platform on this issue. That's for fucking sure.

THIS is why we need Yang in the debates, shifting the democrat overton window the same way Trump did in 2016. The current democrat party is mostly a clown show and we need a guy like Yang pushing it back in the right direction for the good of the country.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

How does a random Democrat have a tougher immigration policy than Trump? What is this world coming to?

[eradicator]

Just donated 20 dollars to Yang. Best 20 dollars I spent this year

https://t.co/Gp4E3EFZO0

That's the donation link

[Libertas]

That actually isn't new. He's had that on his site for a while now. I find it amusing that Yang is pacing and leading you. If anyone else said something like this you'd call it amnesty (which it is, just a delayed one), but because Yang already paced (mirrored, won your approval) you on some things, he's now leading you to something you'd ordinarily opposed.

Now it's much better than we can ordinarily expect especially from the Democrats, but I wish he'd make it a path to legal status instead of citizenship. It means more illegal voters on the roles and guess what that does? It will also be another magnet for illegals unless the border is secured lock stock and barrel and visa overstays are dealt with with some serious interior enforcement. Will Congress do either?

The program has its merits, but there are serious flaws too.

Agreed that getting him some success is crucial though. If he can pace and lead the Democratic Party away from its Year Zero throes and return it to something resembling sanity, it would be a service to the country all on its own.

(03-09-2019 03:50 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  



How does a random Democrat have a tougher immigration policy than Trump? What is this world coming to?

It's not tougher. Just wait until congress gets hold of it in particular. Immigration is a sacrament in the Democratic Party.

[Curunír]

So Yang is going to win the democratic nomination which necessitates almost certainly the support of the large African American base. He will find a way to beat Sanders, Harris, Biden (if he runs) and all the others to square off against RVF ex God and idol, The emperor Donald Trump. Interesting theory.

I'm not against longshots, I am surely the forum member who profited the most by betting on Donald Trump early on (high five digits all in all), registering more than one bet at 100 against 1 and many at 70, 60 against 1, but Yang? Good luck. I predict an exit after South Carolina if he runs.

[Bienvenuto]

If Trump is not following the Maga agenda that he promised during the election cycle then what makes anyone think that Yang and the Democrats (post-Yang) are going to stick by the letter to an 18 year plan?

Its called the thin end of the wedge. Let those Dems in and watch the loopholes grow to black hole proportions.

A reasonable and intelligent Dem candidate and platform is what the country needs right now.
But he aint no Trump.

Wont win and if he did he would be another Jimmy Carter or perceived as even weaker.

Good luck to him but, if it was my individualistic freedom loving country's election, then Id rather vote for Comrade Tito than Mr Yang.

[Libertas]

(03-09-2019 08:39 AM)Bienvenuto Wrote:  

If Trump is not following the Maga agenda that he promised during the election cycle then what makes anyone think that Yang and the Democrats (post-Yang) are going to stick by the letter to an 18 year plan?

Or generally. What happens when inevitably he wouldn't be able to deliver on everything precisely as promised? How fast would the guys fanboying over him now turn on him?

[CynicalContrarian]

(03-09-2019 08:22 AM)Curunír Wrote:  

So Yang is going to win the democratic nomination which necessitates almost certainly the support of the large African American base. He will find a way to beat Sanders, Harris, Biden (if he runs) and all the others to square off against RVF ex God and idol, The emperor Donald Trump. Interesting theory.

I'm not against longshots, I am surely the forum member who profited the most by betting on Donald Trump early on (high five digits all in all), registering more than one bet at 100 against 1 and many at 70, 60 against 1, but Yang? Good luck. I predict an exit after South Carolina if he runs.

[MrLemon]

(03-09-2019 08:50 AM)CynicalContrarian Wrote:  

(03-09-2019 08:22 AM)Curunír Wrote:  

So Yang is going to win the democratic nomination which necessitates almost certainly the support of the large African American base. He will find a way to beat Sanders, Harris, Biden (if he runs) and all the others to square off against RVF ex God and idol, The emperor Donald Trump. Interesting theory.

I'm not against longshots, I am surely the forum member who profited the most by betting on Donald Trump early on (high five digits all in all), registering more than one bet at 100 against 1 and many at 70, 60 against 1, but Yang? Good luck. I predict an exit after South Carolina if he runs.

Yang knows he's unlikely to win in 2020. That's his practice run for 2024. Look how much coverage he's gotten already.

[CynicalContrarian]

(03-09-2019 01:55 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  

Yang knows he's unlikely to win in 2020. That's his practice run for 2024. Look how much coverage he's gotten already.

If I was to bet.
I'd still put Harris as the preferred 2020 candidate for the inner DNC crowd.
While all the "young kids" want Bernie Sanders.

Either the DNC will allow 'democracy' to prevail. Or they'll stiff Sanders again...

[jcrew247]

Maybe Yang is just doing a marketing stunt to get PR. It worked well for the last guy who ran for president as a marketing and PR exposure.

[jcrew247]

(03-09-2019 04:25 PM)CynicalContrarian Wrote:  

(03-09-2019 01:55 PM)MrLemon Wrote:  

Yang knows he's unlikely to win in 2020. That's his practice run for 2024. Look how much coverage he's gotten already.

If I was to bet.
I'd still put Harris as the preferred 2020 candidate for the inner DNC crowd.
While all the "young kids" want Bernie Sanders.

Either the DNC will allow 'democracy' to prevail. Or they'll stiff Sanders again...

Is Debbie Shultz still in charge of the DNC?
She sabotaged Sanders but if she is no longer there, then it
will probably be easier for him to win this time around.
I really doubt Harris or Warren can match Sanders skills.
But if Harris is as good as Obama then she has a chance at coming out of nowhere to win. I just don't see Warren as very charismatc or competent to be a national leader. She is just runnin for VP at this point. Unless Trump screws up badly or resigns, then he should easily win re-election. At this point Sanders and Booker are the only competent people but they will need some help to win the swing states.

[CynicalContrarian]

(03-09-2019 04:34 PM)jcrew247 Wrote:  

Is Debbie Shultz still in charge of the DNC?
She sabotaged Sanders but if she is no longer there, then it
will probably be easier for him to win this time around.
I really doubt Harris or Warren can match Sanders skills.
But if Harris is as good as Obama then she has a chance at coming out of nowhere to win. I just don't see Warren as very charismatc or competent to be a national leader. She is just runnin for VP at this point. Unless Trump screws up badly or resigns, then he should easily win re-election. At this point Sanders and Booker are the only competent people but they will need some help to win the swing states.

I suppose another angle would be. Due to their TDS, if they gauge Sanders as their strongest candidate. They may just allow him to win this time.

[jcrew247]

With regards to the Dem primaries, it mostly comes down to geographic edge. Midwesterners should have an edge in Iowa. Northerners will have an edge in NH. Southerners and Blacks will have an edge in SC. Then if its still wide open, it spreads to more chaos, but if someone like Sanders is able to win both Iowa and NH, then he will have a much easier momentum winning the rest of the primaries based on strong media coverage. Harris is from CA so she won't have any advantages in canvassing volunteers in any of those early primary states.