If only you knew how bad things really are.
Men Going Their Own Way - (news article)
Not sure what you mean chicane.
Quote: (10-08-2016 04:25 PM)Repo Wrote:
Not sure what you mean chicane.
I'm old. If a woman decided to screw me over, I don't have enough life or strength to recover. I'm currently in an awkward position financially, so any kind of craziness could lead to me losing my home, which I am looking at to give me retirement income.
Add to that the only practical options for me to date in western society are women who are either menopausal or post menopausal. While I know it is futile on an intellectual level, I still have a strong desire for a family, so I'm just not interested in women that old.
I'm just working for the day that I can rent my house out, buy a sailboat and disappear into the Pacific.
Quote: (10-08-2016 10:24 AM)Private Man Wrote:
I neither laugh nor scoff at the MGTOW philosphy. I take it very seriously.
...
MGTOW is our culture's true existential threat. It's the invisible men who are the glue that keeps our culture running. If enough of those guys - think sewer workers, delivery men, construction guys, etc. - just said "fuck it" and downshifted to the least effort possible, our society would grind to a messy halt. Remember, men keep the poop in the toilet. We are the engine that powers the culture. If enough of us go on strike, as MGTOW represents, it's game over.
This is a good point and one I hadn't personally considered, but how prevalent in the movement is the idea of this lifestyle being an active form of insurgency rather than a mere means of self preservation?
Even the name of the movement suggests a kind of default passivity which is possibly why guys like us view it with scorn. If you're going to rebel then rebel, right? What's the point of a male rebellion if there's nothing inherently masculine about it?
Take all this with a grain of salt. I'm not part of the movement and have no idea to what degree it's occupied by resentful basement dwellers or cultural counter-revolutionaries.
The public will judge a man by what he lifts, but those close to him will judge him by what he carries.
Quote: (10-08-2016 09:47 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:
Quote: (10-08-2016 10:24 AM)Private Man Wrote:
I neither laugh nor scoff at the MGTOW philosphy. I take it very seriously.
...
MGTOW is our culture's true existential threat. It's the invisible men who are the glue that keeps our culture running. If enough of those guys - think sewer workers, delivery men, construction guys, etc. - just said "fuck it" and downshifted to the least effort possible, our society would grind to a messy halt. Remember, men keep the poop in the toilet. We are the engine that powers the culture. If enough of us go on strike, as MGTOW represents, it's game over.
This is a good point and one I hadn't personally considered, but how prevalent in the movement is the idea of this lifestyle being an active form of insurgency rather than a mere means of self preservation?
Even the name of the movement suggests a kind of default passivity which is possibly why guys like us view it with scorn. If you're going to rebel then rebel, right? What's the point of a male rebellion if there's nothing inherently masculine about it?
Take all this with a grain of salt. I'm not part of the movement and have no idea to what degree it's occupied by resentful basement dwellers or cultural counter-revolutionaries.
Well said.
Additionally, TPTB don't view it that way. They already view you as obselete and unnecessary: a "useless eater". If they need more people to do those jobs they can very easily replace you with a third world immigrant who (in their minds) will be willing to work for shittier pay than you, with less respect, and be happier to do it.
Just remember:
For every MGTOW, that's generally speaking one less beta bucks/sucker for some entitled cunt who thought she could wait until 35 to have a family. That in turn means one less broken home resulting in a new generation of limp dicked men and feminist women.
Don't hate on the MGTOWs too harshly; they are fighting the good fight in their own way.
For every MGTOW, that's generally speaking one less beta bucks/sucker for some entitled cunt who thought she could wait until 35 to have a family. That in turn means one less broken home resulting in a new generation of limp dicked men and feminist women.
Don't hate on the MGTOWs too harshly; they are fighting the good fight in their own way.
What The Black Knight said. I'll take a billion MGTOW over a single dude who wifes up a 35y old hoe.
Sure, we all hope that MGTOW lean our way and learn how to game girls. But I can admire them in a way with their 'fuck you, I refuse to degrade myself and learn clown game'. Definitely better than every guy out there trying to win pussy by being supplicant.
Sure, we all hope that MGTOW lean our way and learn how to game girls. But I can admire them in a way with their 'fuck you, I refuse to degrade myself and learn clown game'. Definitely better than every guy out there trying to win pussy by being supplicant.
Quote: (10-09-2016 12:44 AM)The Black Knight Wrote:
Just remember:
For every MGTOW, that's generally speaking one less beta bucks/sucker for some entitled cunt who thought she could wait until 35 to have a family. That in turn means one less broken home resulting in a new generation of limp dicked men and feminist women.
Don't hate on the MGTOWs too harshly; they are fighting the good fight in their own way.
Quote: (10-09-2016 01:02 AM)Genghis Khan Wrote:
What The Black Knight said. I'll take a billion MGTOW over a single dude who wifes up a 35y old hoe.
Sure, we all hope that MGTOW lean our way and learn how to game girls. But I can admire them in a way with their 'fuck you, I refuse to degrade myself and learn clown game'. Definitely better than every guy out there trying to win pussy by being supplicant.
Exactly, every man who is mature, rational, financially settled who married a woman who has been on the cock carousel for nearly two-decades, had secret abortions and brings bastards and debt into the once holy marriage covenant acquises to the hyper sexualised and materialistic life-style of the most spoiled generations of women who ever lived (with the final generations of Rome being the exception).
The value of men has collapsed since the Pill and the demise of Beta-provider/ husband game, this means that below average and average women are increasing the sex supply but to the upper levels of men as opposed to marrying men whom they are already equal with. These women should not be married when they come back down to Earth seeking their Forest Gumps.
MGTOW for many men is a simple cost-risk-benefit exercise which causes many to conclude that Western women are just not worth it. Too many men here echo the old view that a man cannot be a man without regular sexual validation from women.
Quote: (10-08-2016 09:12 PM)chicane Wrote:
Quote: (10-08-2016 04:25 PM)Repo Wrote:
Not sure what you mean chicane.
I'm old. If a woman decided to screw me over, I don't have enough life or strength to recover. I'm currently in an awkward position financially, so any kind of craziness could lead to me losing my home, which I am looking at to give me retirement income.
Add to that the only practical options for me to date in western society are women who are either menopausal or post menopausal. While I know it is futile on an intellectual level, I still have a strong desire for a family, so I'm just not interested in women that old.
I'm just working for the day that I can rent my house out, buy a sailboat and disappear into the Pacific.
this is simple due-diligence: a cost-risk-benefit exercise and nothing to do with you wanting to go to the basement with popcorn and 2l of Coke to play World of Warcraft.
Quote: (10-09-2016 02:24 AM)N°6 Wrote:
...
MGTOW for many men is a simple cost-risk-benefit exercise which causes many to conclude that Western women are just not worth it. Too many men here echo the old view that a man cannot be a man without regular sexual validation from women.
You'd like to hope that they don't toss aside the prospect of momentary or long term companionship purely as a fear based response to being accused of rape or on the assumption that they're going to be divorce-raped.
Celibate feminists are the female equivalent, living in fear of being raped in the first instance or ending up in an abusive relationship in the second, and we hardly consider them to be rational and balanced people. In that regard many MGTOW are the male equivalent of cat ladies.
As for sexual validation, you might be putting the cart before the horse. I recognise that some dating scenes are pretty awful and only get harder the older you get but my successes with women came as a validation of my growing manliness, not the other way around. It's of course arguable that the standard for being a man should include at least half of the male population but it's pretty inarguable that the standards for "being a man" have certainly dropped over the last half a century.
quickedit: The acid test. How many of these MGTOW would still shun the game if they were ripped, rich and confident, or indeed any of these three alone? Why are so many of them unable to tick even one of these boxes?
The public will judge a man by what he lifts, but those close to him will judge him by what he carries.
I have a great deal of sympathy with MGTOW, but it's ultimately a negative leaning movement, just like feminism. If it were about simply being the man you want to be irrespective of what women want, ZFG from an options mindset and getting laid when you feel like it I'd be MGTOW myself. However, it seems to be chubby, butthurt incels 'choosing' MGTOW when they have no choice in reality because they have a negative, defeatist mentality- just like feminists.
Just look at their average proponents: Dean Esmay clones. Then look at Roosh. Case closed.
Just look at their average proponents: Dean Esmay clones. Then look at Roosh. Case closed.
MGTOWs are just guys who have rejected the blue pill without taking the red pill.
I think MGTOWs are self-destructive, but ultimately less so than, as some of you have already pointed out, guys who wife-up bonafides hoes and wannabe princesses.
I think MGTOWs are self-destructive, but ultimately less so than, as some of you have already pointed out, guys who wife-up bonafides hoes and wannabe princesses.
Born Down Under, but I enjoy Slovakian Thunder: http://slovakia.travel/en/nove-zamky
[quote] (10-09-2016 03:00 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:
[quote='N°6' pid='1412784' dateline='1475997879']...
quickedit: The acid test. How many of these MGTOW would still shun the game if they were ripped, rich and confident, or indeed any of these three alone? Why are so many of them unable to tick even one of these boxes?[/quote]
Clearly they wouldn't. I'd say a lot of them never had a strong masculine influence in their lives throughout their childhood and young adult life. A lot of them never had much of a chance to learn what it is to be a man and became lost souls drifting aimlessly through the world. My background is similar to this and it took me years to undo the programming from my childhood and teen years after discovering Roosh.
While we shouldn't condone the MGTOW behavior, as a community we can always do more to point these guys in the right direction to understanding the realities of the western world and what they can do to improve themselves as a man, whatever their goals may be in life. Western society desperately needs men who are assertive and not afraid to individually stand up for their beliefs to begin to work towards restoring what is right and just in the world.
[quote='N°6' pid='1412784' dateline='1475997879']...
quickedit: The acid test. How many of these MGTOW would still shun the game if they were ripped, rich and confident, or indeed any of these three alone? Why are so many of them unable to tick even one of these boxes?[/quote]
Clearly they wouldn't. I'd say a lot of them never had a strong masculine influence in their lives throughout their childhood and young adult life. A lot of them never had much of a chance to learn what it is to be a man and became lost souls drifting aimlessly through the world. My background is similar to this and it took me years to undo the programming from my childhood and teen years after discovering Roosh.
While we shouldn't condone the MGTOW behavior, as a community we can always do more to point these guys in the right direction to understanding the realities of the western world and what they can do to improve themselves as a man, whatever their goals may be in life. Western society desperately needs men who are assertive and not afraid to individually stand up for their beliefs to begin to work towards restoring what is right and just in the world.
Quote: (10-08-2016 09:47 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:
I'm not part of the [MGTOW] movement and have no idea to what degree it's occupied by resentful basement dwellers or cultural counter-revolutionaries.
It's populated by resentful basement dwellers who think that they are cultural counter-revolutionaries.
I'm the King of Beijing!
Quote: (10-09-2016 03:00 AM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:
Quote: (10-09-2016 02:24 AM)N°6 Wrote:
...
MGTOW for many men is a simple cost-risk-benefit exercise which causes many to conclude that Western women are just not worth it. Too many men here echo the old view that a man cannot be a man without regular sexual validation from women.
You'd like to hope that they don't toss aside the prospect of momentary or long term companionship purely as a fear based response to being accused of rape or on the assumption that they're going to be divorce-raped.
Celibate feminists are the female equivalent, living in fear of being raped in the first instance or ending up in an abusive relationship in the second, and we hardly consider them to be rational and balanced people. In that regard many MGTOW are the male equivalent of cat ladies.
As for sexual validation, you might be putting the cart before the horse. I recognise that some dating scenes are pretty awful and only get harder the older you get but my successes with women came as a validation of my growing manliness, not the other way around. It's of course arguable that the standard for being a man should include at least half of the male population but it's pretty inarguable that the standards for "being a man" have certainly dropped over the last half a century.
quickedit: The acid test. How many of these MGTOW would still shun the game if they were ripped, rich and confident, or indeed any of these three alone? Why are so many of them unable to tick even one of these boxes?
Although I am sure some MGTOWs are fear-based (perhaps they saw their fathers get divorce raped and kept away from his children as if they were border line sexual deviants), others have surely done their due-diligence in relation to their buying power in the SMP and the Marriage Market Place and have come to the conclusion that the risks outweigh the benefits. More so because of the collapse of the ideal English/ Irish Rose; All American Girl/ Girl Next Door whom their forefathers married when young.
I read recently that an academic woman devised a model to quantify masculinity and femininity and found in the last 20 or so years, masculinity has remained constant (despite millennial men being criticized by older men) but that femininity had significantly declined in the West - in fact - it has collapsed. As we know, this has led to the market values of the few remaining Girls Next Door to go through the roof which prices many men out from the market.
The benefit of long-term companionship (which allows a man to focus on the more important things in life than chasing vacuous women) is not a guaranteed benefit where no-fault divorce is so prevalent. Any man who enters marriage thinking that this woman in white at the altar making solemn oaths to the Almighty beside him, will be holding his hand as he draws his last breath on his death bed is completely delusional.
As for validation from women, I don't think I am putting the cart before the horse as most men when still virgins believe the lie that everything will change once they 'get lucky' and a woman bestows her sexual favours on them. As we age, we know just how much of a lie that is so we stop seeking this validation which - as you note - makes us more attractive to women.
I don't think Feminism and MGTOW are two sides of the same coin. For a start, Feminism is state sponsored and state financed, MGTOW will more likely be persecuted or taxed by the state. Also the chances of divorce rape and a lifetime of forced tribute to a woman who hates you is far more likely than sexual rape.
RVF men are attempting to mitigate risk and maximise benefits through self-improvement and widening their nets through international travel, financial security, day game and by not being simps by avoiding the clowning around that PUA preaches. MGTOW men see the mitigated risk as still too high.
I have more respect for them than the idiots who 'step up' and take on the risk associated with nigh-infertile women who've more sexual partners than them and bastards to boot. They give younger women the confidence that they can have it all.
As I say, it is all about due-diligence. A man who decides to buy a property or a second hand car after his due-diligence can probably afford the risk.
Quote: (10-08-2016 08:19 AM)AboveAverageJoe Wrote:
Once these guys realize that they have "willingly" opted out of the gene pool and a life force's basic imperative, to reproduce, it will be too late and they will regret it. Just like women that put off childbearing until after career and carousel. There is something inherently defective about a man that can't even attract a defective woman. At least Isaac Newton's lifelong celibacy resulted in great advancement for the human race in the previously non-existent fields of physics and calculus. I am afraid all these incels will acheive is a high score on some video game I have never heard of. These guys are blaming feminism for their own shortcomings.
Females don't just fall into your lap, you have to hunt them and pursue them like prey, hang out at their watering holes waiting for them to show up, thirsty and undefended by the herd.
These guys realized that it takes effort to attract women so they decided it wasn't worth the effort. Overall this is a good thing for society.
Natural selection has decided that they are unfit to reproduce genetic half-copies of themselves..
Let me guess: you are over 35 years old, right?
Calling MGTOWs a bunch of basement dwellers is no different from people calling redpillers/PUAs virgin losers, weirdos, rapists etc. Many legitimate arguments can be made against the MGTOW movement so let's not sink to these strawmen.
Quote: (10-09-2016 07:20 AM)HenryHill Wrote:
Calling MGTOWs a bunch of basement dwellers is no different from people calling redpillers/PUAs virgin losers, weirdos, rapists etc. Many legitimate arguments can be made against the MGTOW movement so let's not sink to these strawmen.
It is different. If I watch one of Roosh's videos he doesn't in any way come across as a loser.
When I watch videos created by leading members of the MGTOW movement, they strike me as massive losers.
Accordingly, I call them losers, because I believe that they are.
There is no strawmen argument here. I don't think you know what that is.
Also, this isn't petty name-calling. Every interactions I've had with these types has led me to the conclusion that they are losers. I'm totally on board with guys not wasting time on women if they have better things to do with their time. However, I don't see examples of these men doing better things with their time.
If you are concerned about being the target of a false-rape accusation I can understand avoiding casual sex with women, but being well-spoken, reasonably well dressed, having good posture and engaging in general self-improvement isn't going to lead to you being falsely accused of rape.
As a small business owner, I'm also all for avoiding the corporate treadmill and realms where office politics rule the day. That doesn't mean that there is any excuse for being utterly uncool.
These guys want to believe that if enough of them refuse to date or marry, women will eventually be sorry.
Not going to happen. Every one of these guys is invisible to women.
They attempt to give their "movement" credibility by claiming that Leonardo DeCaprio and other guys with actual social skills are also MGTOW, which is just silly.
Meanwhile, they spend a lot of their time online, writing abstract essays about "ghosts:" men who come and go without anyone even noticing.
I'm sorry if the lifestyle you subscribe to isn't as awesome as you were hoping. If dropping out is your goal, go for it, but this is called "giving up."
There are lots of other ways to avoid legal risk and limit contribution to a failed society without being less of a man.
I'm the King of Beijing!
Quote: (10-09-2016 06:04 AM)Suits Wrote:
Quote: (10-08-2016 09:47 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:
I'm not part of the [MGTOW] movement and have no idea to what degree it's occupied by resentful basement dwellers or cultural counter-revolutionaries.
It's populated by resentful basement dwellers who think that they are cultural counter-revolutionaries.
I don't blame these young men. In fact I feel sorry for them. They are largely being influenced by the propaganda of older men. Older men who were divorce raped, divorced multiple times and extremely bitter towards women in general. Men deciding to make their lives in areas and countries, whose lives are ruined after a common occurrence like divorce(Canada, US, UK, AU). Men who are ruined financially and out of shape. Men who dont turn the mirror around on themselves and ask what they could have done differently, and still just blame. Its a victim mindset. Men who never moved on from their divorces, discovered game, were impotent when defending their rights as fathers, did not challenge egregious alimony judgements, did not work hard for a reasonable divorce settlement.
Thats where I see this ideology originating from. And these kids are picking it up, when challenges with girls are at their peak. When I was their age I admired rock stars, authors and entrepreneurs, not divorce raped men. These kids need game. Just dont get married, get someone pregnant, get arrested or get a loan. Its that easy. Its healthy for them to work and build something, but jesus, go get a little pussy too.
Quote: (10-09-2016 09:19 AM)Vaun Wrote:
Quote: (10-09-2016 06:04 AM)Suits Wrote:
Quote: (10-08-2016 09:47 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:
I'm not part of the [MGTOW] movement and have no idea to what degree it's occupied by resentful basement dwellers or cultural counter-revolutionaries.
It's populated by resentful basement dwellers who think that they are cultural counter-revolutionaries.
I don't blame these young men. In fact I feel sorry for them.
I don't blame them either.
Nor do I recommend that they become players either.
What I take issue with is all the silliness where they congregate online to agree with each other how awesome their lifestyle choice (self-sabotaging failure) is.
I'd encourage them to instead develop lives that are actually fulfilling. The fact that they need forums to encourage each other's failure is evidence that they are bitter and unsatisfied with their lot.
I would have very little negative to say if these forums focused on sharing about their hobbies, travel plans and business creation efforts (which would probably focus on doing work that they found satisfying, rather than earning money to buy status symbols).
However, I've seen their forums and that's not what the focus is on. It's just a bunch of self-righteous back-patting by a group of men who are living in denial and deeply unsatisfied with what the world has handed them.
I'm the King of Beijing!
Suits has delivered a harsh but fair judgement (on more than one occasion now)
An MGTOW movement that was like this forum absent the game-specific content would be respectable. Everyone dropping the bar to half and inch and then patting each other on the back for jumping it is kind of sad.
If every MGTOW could point to just a single reasonable aspect of their lives that was in any way admirable then I'm sure we'd all applaud. We'd applaud the guy making huge $tacks. We'd applaud the guy who was 6 feet tall and 240 pounds of fatless muscle. We'd applaud the guy building custom motorcycles, winning the regional 3 gun competition or taking a trophy buck every season. In other words, bringing honour to their movement and in doing so winning over converts.
I'm not knee deep in MGTOW culture, but I'm guessing such accomplishments are few and far between.
An MGTOW movement that was like this forum absent the game-specific content would be respectable. Everyone dropping the bar to half and inch and then patting each other on the back for jumping it is kind of sad.
If every MGTOW could point to just a single reasonable aspect of their lives that was in any way admirable then I'm sure we'd all applaud. We'd applaud the guy making huge $tacks. We'd applaud the guy who was 6 feet tall and 240 pounds of fatless muscle. We'd applaud the guy building custom motorcycles, winning the regional 3 gun competition or taking a trophy buck every season. In other words, bringing honour to their movement and in doing so winning over converts.
I'm not knee deep in MGTOW culture, but I'm guessing such accomplishments are few and far between.
The public will judge a man by what he lifts, but those close to him will judge him by what he carries.
Quote: (10-09-2016 09:19 AM)Vaun Wrote:
Quote: (10-09-2016 06:04 AM)Suits Wrote:
Quote: (10-08-2016 09:47 PM)Leonard D Neubache Wrote:
I'm not part of the [MGTOW] movement and have no idea to what degree it's occupied by resentful basement dwellers or cultural counter-revolutionaries.
It's populated by resentful basement dwellers who think that they are cultural counter-revolutionaries.
I don't blame these young men. In fact I feel sorry for them. They are largely being influenced by the propaganda of older men. Older men who were divorce raped, divorced multiple times and extremely bitter towards women in general. Men deciding to make their lives in areas and countries, whose lives are ruined after a common occurrence like divorce(Canada, US, UK, AU). Men who are ruined financially and out of shape. Men who dont turn the mirror around on themselves and ask what they could have done differently, and still just blame. Its a victim mindset. Men who never moved on from their divorces, discovered game, were impotent when defending their rights as fathers, did not challenge egregious alimony judgements, did not work hard for a reasonable divorce settlement.
Thats where I see this ideology originating from. And these kids are picking it up, when challenges with girls are at their peak. When I was their age I admired rock stars, authors and entrepreneurs, not divorce raped men. These kids need game. Just dont get married, get someone pregnant, get arrested or get a loan. Its that easy. Its healthy for them to work and build something, but jesus, go get a little pussy too.
Also add to that.
Don't stick your dick in crazy. And no, because you think this one chick is really awesome or "she's trying to change" doesn't make her not crazy.
The countless succesful men who do have women in their lives should be evidence enough that the MGTOW idea is flawed.
Frankly some of the guys on this forum don't understand how hard is it economically for the average blue collar man and how that negatively impacts his romantic life. If you lose your job, your wife might just leave you and take your kids. You cant' control whether or not you lose your job. MGTOW is an understandable reaction to an economy that doesn't value blue collar labor anymore and attention whoring women reinforced by no-fault divorce and child support. For many men, dropping out completely of the carnal market is the optimal solution in terms of long term economic welfare.
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