[iknowexactly]

(07-19-2016 08:55 PM)Irenicus Wrote:  

Some more facts:


- The pilots of the plane that took down the Russian fighter over Syria have been arrested (I have mentioned before that one of the pilots was a Gulen supporter). Now, since Erdogan is sucking Putin's dick, I would not be suprised if they end up in Russia. And in Russia, people sometimes have a nasty habit of...disappearing.

- A lot of helicopters (40+) went missing, and the Navy lost contact with 14 warships. Also, they cannot reach the Admiral.

- Many Imams do not want to perform funerals to soldiers KIA.

- All private TV and radio stations have their broadcasting licences revoked indefinetly.

- 50 000 people arrested. Hello Stalin, how are you?

Seems this wasn't a coup, it was a President or whatever he was making himself into a dictator. Repugnant.

Now this may be good for the defense of Europe against Islam-- the nuttier and more fascistic Islam looks, the less appealing it may be for Europe.

[philosophical_recovery]

It's okay guys, Obama says Erdogan's like, the best.

Quote:

President Barack Obama spoke to Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan, offering US assistance as Ankara investigates last week's attempted coup, but urging the government to show restraint as it pursues those connected in the failed attempt.

White House spokesman Josh Earnest said the two leaders discussed the status of US based Turkish cleric Fethullah Gulen, whom Erdogan has accused of being behind the coup attempt and whose extradition Turkey has said it will seek.

Earnest said the Turkish government had filed materials in electronic form with the US government, which US officials were reviewing.

He said any extradition request from Turkey, once submitted, would be evaluated under the terms of a treaty between the two countries.

US state department later said it was still in process of analysing materials submitted by Turkey, but that it could not characterise the documents as an official extradition request for Gulen.

Gulen, who is resident in the US, has denied any involvement in the military plot to topple the government, and hinted that the coup might have been staged to justify his arrest.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/07/ob...42614.html

That's a cool Coup, Erdogan, want to bring it to the White House?

[AntiMediocrity]

(07-20-2016 12:49 AM)iknowexactly Wrote:  

Now this may be good for the defense of Europe against Islam-- the nuttier and more fascistic Islam looks, the less appealing it may be for Europe.

+1 to that statement. Saudi Arabia et al. are too far away for the Europeople to give a damn, but if it's a neighbour (not to mention a common holiday destination) that has all kinds of Islamic "extremist" (Read: moderate) happenings coming out of it, maybe the Lib 18-30 demographic might actually pay attention.

[Leonard D Neubache]

With all those teachers fired you won't have a chance of finding a secular school to put your kids in, but I bet inside a week you won't be able to toss a stone without hitting a madrassa.

[rotekz]

Turkey blocks access to WikiLeaks after ruling party email dump

Quote:

Turkey's Telecommunications Communications Board said on Wednesday that an "administrative measure" had been taken against the website - the term it commonly uses when blocking access to sites.

[John Michael Kane]

Administrative measure? That's cute even by Orwellian standards.

[chakalaka]

If Erdogan doesn´t reestablish good relationships with the US and EU rapidly he will be the next Assad and Turkey the new Syria. If I was in Turkey I would transfer all my belongings elsewhere ASAP.

[Dr. Howard]

(07-20-2016 12:12 PM)chakalaka Wrote:  

If Erdogan doesn´t reestablish good relationships with the US and EU rapidly he will be the next Assad and Turkey the new Syria. If I was in Turkey I would transfer all my belongings elsewhere ASAP.

I agree. I'm watching to see if Erdogan will be the labelled as the next Franz Ferdinand or Gaddafi. The amount of war crimes he is accused of will be the tell.

If Erdogan hoists the islamist flag further up the pole and Europe does nothing they are fucked. Europe is full of 'immigrant' sympathizers who at this point simply just need to be armed by Turkey to succeed.

[kaotic]

Interesting take:

I was at the gym last evening and this Syrian dude I've met before was there.

He's originally from Syria, his family immigrated here.

He went back to the middle east for 2 weeks to visit family, I jokingly say "Hey at least you weren't in Turkey !"

We start talking about Erdogan, how I think the coup was staged.


He told me that he thought Erdogan was doing good for his country and most the people love him. He made Turkey a shitty country into a decent country since his rule.

I was kind of surprised, but I also don't know what side this guy is on the Syrian War.

The guy doesn't seem like an Islamist but the fact he likes Erdogan is pretty interesting.

[rotekz]

Reuters: Turkey will have a state of emergency for three months to tackle Gulen movement - President Erdogan

[Mercenary]

BBC News:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36852805

Quote:

Trump says US may abandon automatic protections for Nato countries

Donald Trump has said that if he is elected president he may abandon a guarantee of protection to fellow Nato countries. Speaking to the New York Times, Mr Trump said the US would only come to the aid of allies if they have "fulfilled their obligations to us". Members of Nato have all signed a treaty that says they will come to the aid of any member that is attacked. Mr Trump will speak on Thursday at the Republican National Convention. In a preview of what he will tell convention-goers in his speech, he outlined a foreign policy strategy aimed at reducing US expenditure and involvement abroad. Mr Trump's comments hit at the fundamental basis of the Atlantic alliance; that an attack on one ally is an attack on all. Under Article 5 of Nato's founding treaty, allies are bound to come to the aid of a member under attack. The US has long been pressing its European allies to spend more on defence. That is slowly beginning to have an effect. But never has there been a suggestion that the US would renege on its responsibilities. His comments on Turkey suggest that the Republican contender also seems reluctant to insist upon Nato members maintaining strong democratic principles. Mr Trump's positions will be seen by Washington's Nato partners as at best eccentric and at worst alarming. At a time of growing tensions with Moscow, the idea that the US might become an unreliable ally is a nightmare for Nato's European members.

[Diogenes]

The governments of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania must be dumber than a bag of hammers if they think any sane US president would risk New York or Washington being nuked to save them. It's long past time they were told to wise up. Luckily for them I don't think Russia gives a shit about them - they're at most a minor irritation.

[El Chinito loco]

(07-21-2016 06:26 AM)Diogenes Wrote:  

The governments of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania must be dumber than a bag of hammers if they think any sane US president would risk New York or Washington being nuked to save them. It's long past time they were told to wise up. Luckily for them I don't think Russia gives a shit about them - they're at most a minor irritation.

Many nations in asia also have this ridiculous notion that the U.S. will come charging in to start thermonuclear WW3 if China fucks around with their islands too..

This over reliance of foreigners on U.S. military safeguards is a waste of money and shifts the burden of global security onto the backs of U.S. taxpayers.

Small regional issues involving a few countries should never blow up into world wars like in the past. NATO is defunct. Russia is not the Soviet Union.

Whether or not the U.S. gets involved should be entirely based on U.S. national security concerns. Europeans have benefited greatly by piggybacking off U.S. defense. Time to stop electing women into defense minister roles and wear big boy pants again.

[LEMONed IScream]

Less presence in defending other countries around the world would reduce the USA's influence and strategic reach. That may be better for the taxpayer but it sounds highly unlikely regarding foreign policy strategies. As a policymaker I'd find that sort of measure myopic. If the US were any other sort of country I'd find it natural, but regarding the last decades of strategic narrative building, it's unlikely and odd at best. Only someone like Trump would suggest it to be honest, and I do like Trump, not sure how right he is on this one though. You may gain in terms of tax burden but lose in other factors.

[El Chinito loco]

(07-21-2016 07:23 AM)LEMONed IScream Wrote:  

Less presence in defending other countries around the world would reduce the USA's influence and strategic reach. That may be better for the taxpayer but it sounds highly unlikely regarding foreign policy strategies. As a policymaker I'd find that sort of measure myopic. If the US were any other sort of country I'd find it natural, but regarding the last decades of strategic narrative building, it's unlikely and odd at best. Only someone like Trump would suggest it to be honest, and I do like Trump, not sure how right he is on this one though. You may gain in terms of tax burden but lose in other factors.

Trump's whole foreign policy initiative is using more of America's soft power. The U.S. has immense cultural and foreign capital which has been eroded by shitty administrations.

In military terms this means more money invested in asymetrical warfare (elite special ops), boots on the ground intelligence, and foreign policy intiatives which create exponential gains for America. The burden of day to day regional military affairs falls on the backs of sovereign nations. If europeans don't want to police their own borders or take care of their regional problems..tough titty.

Can't always cry to the U.S for help like a toddler being bullied in the sandbox if it doesn't involve U.S. interests.

The U.S. will remain a superpower with a powerful conventional army but it won't have to run everywhere waving around a stick. That's the difference.

[911]

NYT on Trump, Erdogan and the coup, very biased reporting for sure but Trump's quotes are interesting:

Quote:

Mr. Trump had nothing but praise for President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the country’s increasingly authoritarian but democratically elected leader. “I give great credit to him for being able to turn that around,” Mr. Trump said of the coup attempt on Friday night. “Some people say that it was staged, you know that,” he said. “I don’t think so.”

Asked if Mr. Erdogan was exploiting the coup attempt to purge his political enemies, Mr. Trump did not call for the Turkish leader to observe the rule of law, or Western standards of justice. “When the world sees how bad the United States is and we start talking about civil liberties, I don’t think we are a very good messenger,” he said.

The Obama administration has refrained from any concrete measures to pressure Turkey, fearing for the stability of a crucial ally in a volatile region. But Secretary of State John F. Kerry has issued several statements urging Mr. Erdogan to follow the rule of law.

Mr. Trump offered no such caution for restraint to Turkey and nations like it. However, his argument about America’s moral authority is not a new one: Russia, China, North Korea and other autocratic nations frequently cite violence and disorder on American streets to justify their own practices, and to make the case that the United States has no standing to criticize to them.

Mr. Trump said he was convinced that he could persuade Mr. Erdogan to put more effort into fighting the Islamic State. But the Obama administration has run up, daily, against the reality that the Kurds — among the most effective forces the United States is supporting against the Islamic State — are being attacked by Turkey, which fears they will create a breakaway nation.

Asked how he would solve that problem, Mr. Trump paused, then said: “Meetings.”

[Dark Knowledge]

(07-21-2016 08:10 AM)911 Wrote:  

NYT on Trump, Erdogan and the coup, very biased reporting for sure but Trump's quotes are interesting:

Quote:

Mr. Trump had nothing but praise for President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the country’s increasingly authoritarian but democratically elected leader. “I give great credit to him for being able to turn that around,” Mr. Trump said of the coup attempt on Friday night. “Some people say that it was staged, you know that,” he said. “I don’t think so.”

Asked if Mr. Erdogan was exploiting the coup attempt to purge his political enemies, Mr. Trump did not call for the Turkish leader to observe the rule of law, or Western standards of justice. “When the world sees how bad the United States is and we start talking about civil liberties, I don’t think we are a very good messenger,” he said.

The Obama administration has refrained from any concrete measures to pressure Turkey, fearing for the stability of a crucial ally in a volatile region. But Secretary of State John F. Kerry has issued several statements urging Mr. Erdogan to follow the rule of law.

Mr. Trump offered no such caution for restraint to Turkey and nations like it. However, his argument about America’s moral authority is not a new one: Russia, China, North Korea and other autocratic nations frequently cite violence and disorder on American streets to justify their own practices, and to make the case that the United States has no standing to criticize to them.

Mr. Trump said he was convinced that he could persuade Mr. Erdogan to put more effort into fighting the Islamic State. But the Obama administration has run up, daily, against the reality that the Kurds — among the most effective forces the United States is supporting against the Islamic State — are being attacked by Turkey, which fears they will create a breakaway nation.

Asked how he would solve that problem, Mr. Trump paused, then said: “Meetings.”

When Trump is elected he needs to emulate Erdogan's purging of academics!

Send all the commie professors to a future gulag in Alaska

[Leonard D Neubache]

(07-21-2016 08:22 AM)Dark Knowledge Wrote:  

When Trump is elected he needs to emulate Erdogan's purging of academics!

Send all the commie professors to a future gulag in Alaska

Nah. Just defund education entirely and give the savings directly on a per-kid basis to every parent.

"Here you go. You're on your own. Organise yourselves. All education is now government funded (as such) but entirely privately run."

And when someone bitched about this having a negative impact on certain parasitic demographics Trump could just reply...

[philosophical_recovery]

Aren't entangling alliances exactly how the US drafted and sent a bunch of good men off to die by the evil Wilson? Which then resulted in the rise of the Nazi party, WWII, and more US involvement.
And it's a gross oversimplification of history to say that will happen again If US gets involved with Turkey, but there's a strong argument for grabbing our toys and going home.

[pat2bat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gptKWc0...tion=share

That real radical islamic cleric's movement, infiltrated all public institutions for 30 years attempted the coup but failed. US, too, backing his sneaky and anti-democratic movement failed in Turkey unlike other middle eastern countries such as iraq, libya, egypt and syria so now it is time for US to review and revise middle eatern micro state policy in order not to lose the military base and Turkey completely that considers joining the Shangai Five instead of EU.

Enjoy the american decline and the rise of east!

[kaotic]

Erdogan bans all Academics from leaving the country, heh, the purge continues.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...46591.html

[TonySandos]

(07-21-2016 11:48 AM)kaotic Wrote:  

Erdogan bans all Academics from leaving the country, heh, the purge continues.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...46591.html

As someone that's been to the Mideast (even seen Turkey in person), people of both partisanships in the US are willfully blind to the cynical mechanics of such governments. Because Americans can't be bothered to drop the "democracy is GOAT!!1!" meme, they don't want to believe such atrocities are about to be committed under the guise of it. No one is listening. This is yet another chapter in American ignorance costing the meek peoples of other nations dearly

[Samseau]

(07-21-2016 12:33 PM)TonySandos Wrote:  

(07-21-2016 11:48 AM)kaotic Wrote:  

Erdogan bans all Academics from leaving the country, heh, the purge continues.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...46591.html

As someone that's been to the Mideast (even seen Turkey in person), people of both partisanships in the US are willfully blind to the cynical mechanics of such governments. Because Americans can't be bothered to drop the "democracy is GOAT!!1!" meme, they don't want to believe such atrocities are about to be committed under the guise of it. No one is listening. This is yet another chapter in American ignorance costing the meek peoples of other nations dearly

Yeah but what difference does it make if Turkey was a democracy or not? They'd still be doing purges and genocides anyways, it's part of the culture straight back to the Islamic and Khan days. It will never change, giving violent barbarians democracy and you just have a bunch of violent barbarians voting on stuff.

[TonySandos]

Samseau, this is what I tried to illustrate in my point. What bothers me about it is willful American blindness to ignore apparent inconveniences and incongruences when fed the democracy pill.

[kaotic]

Sam brings up a good point, what difference will it make.

The middle east does not understand or believes in democracy.