[MMX2010]

Most of the people who complain about cops don't understand their basic function. If a person being arrested protests their innocence, that person doesn't understand the basic function of a police officer. And if you watch someone protest their innocence to the point where they get assaulted or killed by police, then you don't understand the basic function of a police officer, either.

A police officer isn't a judge, and isn't a lawyer. He's an individual with IQ between 95 and 110, whose sole purpose is to bring you to jail. Arguing with him cannot possibly work, because he's not a judge and not a lawyer.

In the Alton Sterling video, you can hear Alton protesting his innocence, while in a grappling struggle with the police. So Alton didn't understand what a cop is, and now he's dead.

[brick tamland]

MMX2010,
In case you are generalising about black Americans 'different levels of awareness of how to behave when stopped by police, different levels of awareness of rights you possess when stopped by police, and different conceptions of what police are' (by this I mean that you assume that on average black Americans are deficiently possessed of the appropriate and life-saving awareness and conception) I ask this :

Are they not VERY SPECIFICALLY most likely to fear and be intimidated by the police, to the extent of being inassertive regarding their rights, because they could easily end up on the seven o'clock news?

[weambulance]

(07-07-2016 01:37 PM)Deepdiver Wrote:  

Police go to work in fear that in many cities they may be executed in their patrol cars while waiting for their next call to come in be it a biker gang, ISIS fanatic, BLM militant, or El Chapo Sinaloa drugs dealing cop killer.

Come on man. Very few cops die in violent altercations. The overwhelmingly vast majority of police deaths are from traffic accidents. If cops truly believe they're under threat all the time and worry about getting executed, they have serious paranoia issues and terrible attitudes that do not lend themselves well to proper community policing.

Hardly anybody wants to fuck with the police, criminals included. All that does is bring down a ton of heat.

As to the subject of the thread, this case looks borderline. Without knowing more about what actually went down, I'd call it probably technically justified but not necessary, and the cops likely could've handled it better from the second they got the call from dispatch.

[MMX2010]

Brick tamland,

You say A causes B. I say B causes A.

But you're the one who doesn't want to test whether B causes A by educating Blacks about their rights, their compartment, and their mistaken perceptions of what cops are for.

So I'm stuck in my comfortable middle class neighborhood, where I don't have to worry about Black people getting executed by police. And you're stuck wherever you're stuck.

At best, you've stalemated me in this argument. But even a stalemate is a loss for you, considering how happy I am with my life and my position.

[Saccade]

These threads always go bad after a certain point.

Some Facts:
Alton Sterling was convicted of "carnal knowledge of a juvenile" in the year 2000 and was a registered sex offender.

Louisiana defines the felony carnage of a juvenile as:
(1) A person who is seventeen years of age or older has sexual intercourse, with consent, with a person who is thirteen years of age or older but less than seventeen years of age, when the victim is not the spouse of the offender and when the difference between the age of the victim and the age of the offender is four years or greater; or
(2) A person commits a second or subsequent offense of misdemeanor carnal knowledge of a juvenile, or a person who has been convicted one or more times of violating one or more crimes for which the offender is required to register as a sex offender under R.S. 15:542 commits a first offense of misdemeanor carnal knowledge of a juvenile.
Source

According to documents found here Alton Sterling was in a sexual relationship with a 14-year-old when he was 20. Apparently, they dated for 7 months and Sterling got her pregnant.

He also owed $25,000 in child support:


Looking through the court documents above you can see that he's been convicted of battery, illegally possessing a firearm, burglary, and domestic abuse. Among other things...

Of course, when I searched for "Alton sterling" to get some news about this I clicked on the first article on google, CNN's article.

At the end of the article, there's mention of his criminal record. No doubt CNN wouldn't leave out his glaring past?

Quote:

Sterling had earlier encounters with law enforcement.
In 2009, he was charged with carrying a weapon (a firearm) while in possession of a controlled substance (marijuana). He pleaded guilty two years later and was sentenced to five years in prison, with credit for time served and a recommendation of work release and drug treatment.
There's no evidence that officers who responded to the convenience store early Tuesday were aware of his criminal history.

Oh...

I wouldn't have known any of this or investigated it if Mike hadn't posted it on his twitter... makes you think.

[MMX2010]

Since most people only skim articles, putting his criminal record way at the bottom of the article means that less than 50% of those who clicked the article learned about Alton Sterling's criminal past.

Less than half. Let that sink in.

[nomadbrah]

(07-07-2016 02:08 PM)weambulance Wrote:  

(07-07-2016 01:37 PM)Deepdiver Wrote:  

Police go to work in fear that in many cities they may be executed in their patrol cars while waiting for their next call to come in be it a biker gang, ISIS fanatic, BLM militant, or El Chapo Sinaloa drugs dealing cop killer.

Come on man. Very few cops die in violent altercations. The overwhelmingly vast majority of police deaths are from traffic accidents. If cops truly believe they're under threat all the time and worry about getting executed, they have serious paranoia issues and terrible attitudes that do not lend themselves well to proper community policing.

Hardly anybody wants to fuck with the police, criminals included. All that does is bring down a ton of heat.

As to the subject of the thread, this case looks borderline. Without knowing more about what actually went down, I'd call it probably technically justified but not necessary, and the cops likely could've handled it better from the second they got the call from dispatch.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Am...ne_of_duty

40 cops were killed last year by gunfire.

http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fata...facts.html

Police officers according to the above are assaulted 50.000 times a year, 15.000 times of those leading to injuries.

If I was a police officer each of those 40 deaths by some scumbag would be completely unacceptable. 15.000 assaults with injuries.

[MiscBrah]

[brick tamland]

The deceased's criminal record is irrelevant as he was not predisposed to 1) resisting arrest or 2) violence acts against police officers, or else he would have been charged for this.

UNLESS:

It is being suggested that his past convictions rendered him dispensable.

[MMX2010]

(07-07-2016 02:48 PM)brick tamland Wrote:  

The deceased's criminal record is irrelevant as he was not predisposed to 1) resisting arrest

Brick Tamland just asked us not to focus on the fact that Alton Sterling was resisting arrest, because we should focus instead on how bad it is to mention his criminal record.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

The guy is scum, but that doesn't warrant shooting him. When someone is helpless at the ground and you are easily able to keep him pinned, why would you possibly respond to sudden movement with emptying a clip instead of just slamming him?

[MMX2010]

(07-07-2016 02:51 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

The guy is scum, but that doesn't warrant shooting him. When someone is helpless at the ground and you are easily able to keep him pinned, why would you possibly respond to sudden movement with emptying a clip instead of just slamming him?

Because he had a gun and never told them he had it. If you're carrying a gun and get pulled over by the cops, you're supposed to tell them you have the gun. That's something you're taught when you get your concealed carry permit.

To put my knowledge into perspective, I've never been interested in getting a gun, until maybe six months ago. And one of the first things I learned was, "If you're carrying concealed, and a cop pulls you over, you have to tell him you have the gun."

That's how basic that factoid is.

[Saccade]

(07-07-2016 02:48 PM)brick tamland Wrote:  

The deceased's criminal record is irrelevant as he was not predisposed to 1) resisting arrest or 2) violence acts against police officers, or else he would have been charged for this.

UNLESS:

It is being suggested that his past convictions rendered him dispensable.

I'm not suggesting anything. Just putting the facts out there. Why would CNN (and seemingly all major news stations) leave out that he was convicted sex offender? That he was convicted of domestic violence? There's a reason for this.

Whether he reached for that gun or not I don't know. I'm not commenting on the relations between police officers and the black community. It seems like you're the one trying your hardest to inject race into this and suggesting the notion I'm implying he was "dispensable."

[Chowder Head]

In MN, this guy had a conceal carry permit and still got shot. Looks like he had a good job and was a law abiding citizen.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/07/us/falcon-...innesota/#

[Ghost Tiger]

(07-07-2016 01:49 PM)brick tamland Wrote:  

(07-07-2016 01:30 PM)Ghost Tiger Wrote:  

(07-07-2016 12:55 PM)rpg Wrote:  

Alton was tazed before the video even begins recording. Obviously tazers dont work so good on huge people. A question I have is why unload so many shots into the guys chest? One should be enough. The other cop by his head could have been hit. I sure wouldnt want to be 12 inches from a semiauto going off in succession.

It's not just his size that countered the effects of the tazer, he was probably cracked out. And the reason the cop fired so many shots is because his adrenal gland is on overdrive since he's in a win-or-die situation. The only thing standing between that cop and the lethal threat of the criminal's weapon is the cop's own effective use of lethal force. So forgive him if he over-did it a little.

Ghost Tiger, your prescience is remarkable. The deceased was 'cracked out'? Prescience.
And thanks for contributing some expertise - A stimulated Adrenal gland justifiably overrules the specific training that police are given to deal with this VERY type of do or die situation? Have you heard about checklists. I can't imagine that police usually have it in mind to shoot first except when the person they are confronting is...black.

Thread should be closed.

I said probably. Just like this guy was...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/man-died-f...t-1.475434

I'm basing my statement on hard statistics and real-world experience (my own). Have you ever had to arrest someone brick? I have. You know what happens in those situations? No checklists are handy, that's for sure.

You keep making this about your fetish for the black race as the greatest victims of police violence. Which makes you a race troll. Excessive police violence is a problem but it is a problem that transcends race. More white people are killed by police than black people. Quit race trolling.

[AboveAverageJoe]

(07-07-2016 02:54 PM)MMX2010 Wrote:  

(07-07-2016 02:51 PM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

The guy is scum, but that doesn't warrant shooting him. When someone is helpless at the ground and you are easily able to keep him pinned, why would you possibly respond to sudden movement with emptying a clip instead of just slamming him?

Because he had a gun and never told them he had it. If you're carrying a gun and get pulled over by the cops, you're supposed to tell them you have the gun. That's something you're taught when you get your concealed carry permit.

To put my knowledge into perspective, I've never been interested in getting a gun, until maybe six months ago. And one of the first things I learned was, "If you're carrying concealed, and a cop pulls you over, you have to tell him you have the gun."

That's how basic that factoid is.

That only applies to legal gun owners. No felon in posession of a firearm is going to just give himself a 5 year sentence. But once he was slammed and pinned he should have come clean and told the law he was carrying. He might still be alive.

[Clemmo]

(07-07-2016 12:49 PM)RIslander Wrote:  

Facts:

1. Black men are killed by police on a near daily basis in America. Most of them are criminals.

2. The press selectively decides which ones to blow up, based on whatever current political events are transpiring at the time.

Average American: What FBI email investigation?

It felt really coincidental to me that the media is pushing these stories around the same time as Hillary's verdict. It feels like this forum is one of the few who sees past this BS.

But I do feel that what happened to both Sterling and Philando was excessive and Police reforms need to happen.

[debeguiled]

It used to be that spin doctoring, and managing appearances was only for the political elites, and the media managing classes, and looked on with distaste by the average person, who still had some regard for and responsibility to the truth. Branding was just for brands.

Sometimes I look on with despair not only at the media, but at Youtube personalities, and the TwitterFamous, even the ones that I like, and even random people interviewed by the news. Everyone seems to have a fixed idea now of how . . . things . . . are, and the blogosphere is just waiting for an event, hopefully an upsetting and dramatic event, that they can attach their cause to and ride it out for a while until the next one.

I don't want young men to die needlessly, and I also don't want the police to be demonized constantly, and I also apply this to all the other issues that we see in the news every day, like all men are rapists, and it is healthy for you to be a fat chick, and you know the rest.

Part of what I despair of is ever getting the facts on anything. There is too much at stake for anyone to tell the truth. In days gone by the idea of creating a narrative for your own gain and cynically fitting the rest of the world in to it would be considered beneath any decent person. Now, it is seen as a right.

These narratives have trumped everything. Honesty. Responsibility. Justice. Fairness. They have all been branded away, subsumed into whatever the market of ideas will bear at a given moment.

All of these problems will remain intractable until people are willing to speak simple truths, often truths that go against the self interests of the speakers, and as far as I can see, there is too much at stake for all the participants in all of these incidents, and millions others like them, to make this happen.

There can be no solution without the facts, and at the moment, there are no incentives for anyone to tell the truth.

So the competing narratives grind onward, and I am hard pressed to see any way for this momentum to change.

[GlobalMan]

Are some guys talking about the Baton Rouge incident and others the Minnesota incident? I'm confused.

(legal) concealed carry was mentioned- that was the Minnesota thing, and that looks especially bad. Seems another case of unclear instructions/nervous cop and perhaps not the best decision by the carrier. Anyone who carries should learn how to interact with cops when carrying, things can go bad if not handled correctly. That is not to say the (now dead) man is at fault, it's terrible all around and this shouldn't have happened.

From the girlfriend's account, the officer asked to see his ID and as the man was reaching for his wallet he said "officer I have a firearm on me and I have a permit"

While it's good he said firearm and not gun (you should never say "gun", it's like a dog whistle to cops), it's best to lead with saying you have a permit to carry and then say you are carrying- and definitely do not say this while reaching for anything, always keeping your hands visible and still. After that ask the officer what he would like you to do.

We don't know all the details yet, but if he indeed mentioned he has a firearm as he was in the process of reaching back that's going to put him in a bad spot.

It's really shitty, guy was legal and trying to do the right thing informing the officer, but it just played out the wrong way and the cop was too quick to shoot.

[AboveAverageJoe]

I always put my hands on the wheel in plain view and roll down all my tinted windows when I get pulled over (almost never). I figure why make it difficult, for an armed man with a license to shoot me, to tell whether I am armed or reaching for a weapon or not. I also call all my moves like playing 8-ball. "I am going to get my insurance from the glove compartment, OK? My license is in my pocket should I remove it?" I have found that showing you know the ropes and are trying to ease their mind goes a long way. I don't want to be mistaken for a guy who might be carrying or reaching for a weapon.

Resist by calmly asserting your rights, especially your 4th ammendment (right against illegal search and seziure) but don't give any appearance of someone who is not complying or needs a bullet. Speak calmly and evenly when asked questions, otherwise keep quiet. It is OK to ask a policeman if their demand is a lawful order or a request. Cops are great with semantics in trying to frame questions as commands: "I am going to ask you to come out of the car", "I would feel safer if you came with me and sat in my car", "I iam going to need you to do...." You have the right to say: "Excuse me officer are you asking me or are you giving me a lawful order?" a very important distinction the way police operate in the US. Otherwise be calm not talkative but cooperative and remember they are not pulling you over to either protect you or serve you. Don't be a dick but don't help them make their Terry-stop, fishhing expeditions any easier. Their goal is to take you to jail.

[Ghost Tiger]

(07-07-2016 03:34 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  

From the girlfriend's account,

Why does the video begin AFTER the shooting took place? Do you expect me to believe she DIDN'T record any video prior to this moment? Why do her statements seem so rehearsed?

I have zero trust in anything this woman says. She is editing the truth for her own gain, just like this monster did after she stabbed her boyfriend in the neck from the back seat of his car:

Quote:

Interestingly, however unpleasant a character Mr. Gillespie may have been, his death was stirring and terribly sobering, even now, even as it was captured on the call to 911 Ms. Lewis made.

On that tape, which has been played for the jurors, she is mostly screaming, panic stricken, hysterical, yet still curiously able, when asked what happened, to use the passive voice. “He’s stabbed!” she cried. “He was stabbed!” – not, as the world knows now, “I stabbed him.”

http://news.nationalpost.com/posted-toro...mate-issue

[Chowder Head]

I posted the MN shooting onto this thread because it happened a day after Baton Rouge. Looks like the Baton Rouge guy was a criminal knucklehead resisting arrest and the MN guy was a good guy that ran into a nervous cop.

[Clemmo]

Paul Joesph Watson gives his take on the two incidents.

[JacksonRev]

The Minnesota one sounds like, as Weambulance put it, "Technically justified, but not necessary." I probably would have yelled, "Stop! Don't Move!" before shooting, but then again, I still might have shot the guy. The video is unclear as to what exactly happened, and how and how quickly the guy moved.

As far as the Baton Rouge shooting, I definitely would have shot the guy if he was fighting against me, there were reports he had a gun, my partner yells, "He's got a gun!" and he made any move to go for the gun.

Any time I judge a police officer's behavior, the first thing I do is consider what I would do in the same situation. Most people don't, which is why reporters, or most anyone really, goes into a training situation similar to the "insert hot topic situation," and performs worse than the officers involved in the "insert hot topic situation" did.

[Space Cowboy]

I'm sorry but when is reaching into your pockets justification for being shot by law enforcement?