[TravelerKai]

Martial Arts have been tied with technology for thousands of years. Many were directly dependant upon it. It made sense to train Aikido/Iaido/kenjutsu etc. if you were a soldier carrying a naginata or katana. You could not use those weapons very effectively without that training, and you would not likely survive many battles without it.

Katanas forged with the best craftsmanship were like having a HK 416 with scopes and handgrips while others just have a plain AR with Iron sights back in those days. Having that fancy katana was a waste if you did not have the training and strength to make a deep cut and pull it out fast enough to cut the next guy coming. If your sword was knocked out of your hands, the Aikido/Ju Jitsu helped you grab that attacker and disarm him too. Now the odds are even again.

By the end of the Meiji Restoration, all these trainings largely because useless as Samurai were disbanded and sword carrying banned. Learning how to shoot long guns and rifles became the priority, marching in formation, reloading strategies, and volleys became number one. Melee fighting was not very common and if it happened, machine made mass produced katanas, knives, and bayonets were good enough by WW1 and 2.

Going back to Vikings and their weapons, their advanced steel forging techniques gave them huge advantages on the battlefield. That said, they still came up with clever ways to defeat men carrying shields and had their own European Martial Art style to accommodate it. They put small, sharp, axe heads on top of a long pole. Then would split skulls over the top of a shield with a downward swing. They even had melee techniques and strategies to quickly pull out of that skull for repeated attacks.

As long as conventional forms of warfare and conflict exist, a man with martial arts skills, has an advantage. For nation states, finding that sweet spot of how much money and time to invest in that training is always a challenge. This is the only reason these ancient and old methods have survived as long.

[vinman]

I have studied a wide cross section of martial arts in my life. One thing I noticed is good instructors always taught me how to land. They did flashy shit to grab your attention, but they emphasized landing properly.

[TravelerKai]

(06-21-2016 10:31 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

A complete system deals with what contingencies?

Piecing together
- small joint manipulation
- using weapons, defending
- not leaving your back unguarded
- internal system
- physical fitness
- multiple attackers
- leg work
- ground work

What other boxes are on this checklist?

Great post

WIA

Oooo... your keen eye is amazing Archie as usual. Honestly, no system actually has all of those things unless you remove the internal system. No one style has all of that inside it, in my opinion. Even the weapons part would depend upon modern ones or ancient ones.

I would say Russian Systema is probably your best bet, but it would have to be a good school. If you are still near DC, I have heard that many good ones are there with G men making up a good bulk of the students. Might be good for networking too on the side.

Some CQC schools might have all this too but I have not spent a good deal looking for these. I think I have only seen 1 or 2 and honestly I could not tell if they were training for a terror attack or a zombie one. Maybe both? Either way, it looked like they knew what the fuck they were doing though based upon what they teach. I think they are in Alabama though.

Sometimes times the best instruction will not get your cardio up to what you want. At the end of the day, it's like an Everest expedition. Bring all the sherpas you want, you still need the gas tank to make it up there. That's on you. I recommend running, biking, elliptical, etc. use a high altitude training mask if you want to get the cardio tip top. I make the last fighter I still privately train run up hills in Utah. He hates it, but he knows it gives a huge advantage.

Let me address open back stuff too.

Some Krav Maga people (and some others) will use Judo throws on guys that are still holding a knife! That's terrible in my opinion. Neutralize the threats first means that you usually have to disarm the biggest threat, then work your way down the rest on the progression. Constant movement to keep your back protected or isolated matters alot when people are closing in on you. The biggest way to find out if some school is McDojo or not very good, is to watch for little stuff like this. They are teaching bad habits. If you see this, question it immediately. If they are demonstrating against multiple opponents there better be a good reason to turn your back to one of the attackers face. If it was a super fast pivot for a punch combo, that is fine. If you can count 1 mississippi and get to 3, that is too long and in a real situation that person might get killed.

In a lot of ways it is instructor dependent on key issues related to self defense. Punches to attackers that are holding clubs and knives are sketchy as fuck and are dead giveaways. Silat stuff may look like they give the back, but that is because that is probably part of their setup to disarm a weapon first and punish the person badly. Usually we have a sideways stance because it is easier to transition to the second bad guy, should he interrupt. If you know alot of boxing/muay thai, notice the strong side lead footwork changes and switches. Here are some videos so you don't have to watch a Jason Borne movie to see what I mean.

Jump to the 30 second mark.

Watch this slower motion one around the 2 min mark for multiple opponents.

Silat (Indonesian or Filipino) would be good ones to go visit and check out Archie. It might even fit your personality better than some other styles. To really know you have to try them all though.

One thing I really like about having skills in Silat is that I can basically fight in a phonebooth or a very small area. You can really stand your ground as long as you don't let them get your back.

If you ever take Silat, please let me and Moma know before we see you again in person. We don't want to find out you carry a karambit the hard way.

[Enigma]

Great insight as usual, Kai.

I'm curious if you have any opinion or preferences regarding the different styles of Filipino Martial Arts, e.g., Lightning Scientific vs. Kalis Ilustrimo vs. Pekiti Tirsia.

Also, any recommendations you might have regarding the study of Wing Chun in China (or elsewhere in Asia) would be much appreciated.

[Chowder Head]

Great info Kai. I have a couple of questions:

1) Would it be a good idea for me to start martial arts in my mid 40s? 

2) Who was the most famous person you've fought/trained with?

[cascadecombo]

Quote:

Besides, who wants to be the strongest in the world and cannot tell anyone or show it off? If I was that strong, I would be punching everybody. Fortis, CascadeCombo, CrashbangWallop, and any dude that lifts alot here. Wanna see how strong I am!!! I could never keep some shit like that a secret! LaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh

I can't say I'd want to attack a buddy from the site, but I know I would jump at the chance to train [steal their techniques] with the guys from this forum.

I was wanting to make a post about extra benefits from travel people don't realize. Whenever I take a trip I sign up at the local gyms to spar and train. Every time I go somewhere new I learn new ways to apply old techniques or just learn new techniques in general. Just like how training and competing expires you to more styles due to different teachers influences and such. Training in various schools opens my mind to new subtle differences in the fighters way of thinking.

Plus it helps being a foreigner in asia who trains, the coaches always wanna try to beat up the outsider. Things never go the way they want but I have yet to walk out of a school the first day without good feelings among us all.

[TravelerKai]

(06-21-2016 12:20 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

Great insight as usual, Kai.

I'm curious if you have any opinion or preferences regarding the different styles of Filipino Martial Arts, e.g., Lightning Scientific vs. Kalis Ilustrimo vs. Pekiti Tirsia.

Also, any recommendations you might have regarding the study of Wing Chun in China (or elsewhere in Asia) would be much appreciated.

No not really. There are indeed many different substyles to learn from, especially if you have the means to train in the Philippines itself! I would go crazy trying to find enough time to try them out.

I was trained by a Filipino in the states that knew several types. I did not realize till many years later that what I know is essentially a hybrid of FMA styles. Also, I chose not to learn his stick fighting techniques (Arnis). He had a very heavy expertise on that. I wanted to only know the hand to hand and knife fighting only. Being American, carrying sticks did not appeal much to me. That said...if a dude carried collapsable sticks and trained in it nowadays, watch the fuck out!

That said, I do personally prefer FMA over Indonesian style Silat. I like some of the Indonesian styles, but that is because of a certain instructor I probably saw in the past.

Don't get me wrong Indo is badass too, just from what I took and liked, I had a preference for FMA styles, especially on knife techniques. I will also say Indo styles probably have better hand-to-hand in alot of ways (pencak silat). FMA is just very "Ju Jitsu", if that makes sense.

[TravelerKai]

As for Wing Chun, I would have to do some research for you. Send me a PM with your location you are going to be.

Don't post that on the forum. Same applies to everyone else FYI

[TravelerKai]

(06-21-2016 12:29 PM)Chowder Head Wrote:  

Great info Kai. I have a couple of questions:

1) Would it be a good idea for me to start martial arts in my mid 40s? 

2) Who was the most famous person you've fought/trained with?

1. Absolutely!! Give me a little more information about what you would like to study or accomplish goals wise, like Archie did. (eg. self defense, fitness, sports or sparring, etc.)

2.

[Enigma]

(06-21-2016 01:23 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

As for Wing Chun, I would have to do some research for you. Send me a PM with your location you are going to be.

Don't post that on the forum. Same applies to everyone else FYI

I actually don't have any concrete plans, but I'm in Asia now and was just curious if you had any recommendations on good places to train or what to look for in schools.

I'm sure I can dig up some stuff on my own, no need to go out of your way -- I don't want to take up too much of your time.

[Chowder Head]

(06-21-2016 01:27 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

(06-21-2016 12:29 PM)Chowder Head Wrote:  

Great info Kai. I have a couple of questions:

1) Would it be a good idea for me to start martial arts in my mid 40s? 

2) Who was the most famous person you've fought/trained with?

1. Absolutely!! Give me a little more information about what you would like to study or accomplish goals wise, like Archie did. (eg. self defense, fitness, sports or sparring, etc.)

Self defense and fitness. I've been researching Russian Systema that you mentioned to WIA. I'm in the DC area so I think I may have found a class that is held on the weekends. I wouldn't mind sparring but I haven't taken a hard shot in years. I've lost a shitload of weight this year, so anything that will help with my fitness would be great.

[TravelerKai]

(06-21-2016 01:39 PM)Enigma Wrote:  

(06-21-2016 01:23 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

As for Wing Chun, I would have to do some research for you. Send me a PM with your location you are going to be.

Don't post that on the forum. Same applies to everyone else FYI

I actually don't have any concrete plans, but I'm in Asia now and was just curious if you had any recommendations on good places to train or what to look for in schools.

I'm sure I can dig up some stuff on my own, no need to go out of your way -- I don't want to take up too much of your time.

Send me a note if you change your mind or want a second opinion about a place.

[TravelerKai]

(06-21-2016 02:01 PM)Chowder Head Wrote:  

(06-21-2016 01:27 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

(06-21-2016 12:29 PM)Chowder Head Wrote:  

Great info Kai. I have a couple of questions:

1) Would it be a good idea for me to start martial arts in my mid 40s? 

2) Who was the most famous person you've fought/trained with?

1. Absolutely!! Give me a little more information about what you would like to study or accomplish goals wise, like Archie did. (eg. self defense, fitness, sports or sparring, etc.)

Self defense and fitness. I've been researching Russian Systema that you mentioned to WIA. I'm in the DC area so I think I may have found a class that is held on the weekends. I wouldn't mind sparring but I haven't taken a hard shot in years. I've lost a shitload of weight this year, so anything that will help with my fitness would be great.

Maybe you can call them and see if you can watch a practice or even join in for one day to see. Grab all the literature, if they have it, and check their schedules for what is taught on what days, etc.

Find out if you need to buy equipment, stuff to train, etc. See if they offer firearms related defense training (disarm or use). Even though that area does not let you own those, get whatever you can.

[TravelerKai]

Maybe we should try to put some peer pressure on Roosh and see if he would go take a Russian Systema class for a month. I remember seeing something he wrote somewhere about the Art of War and he thought it was about martial arts too much or something like that. Maybe not. If he counter punches a feminist we would have to go bail him out of jail.

[Cyr]

Wow Traveler, this is incredible. Thanks for the sheet.

[rcraig33hb]

I also have a Muay Thai background! Very extensive datasheet!

+1

[kbell]

Great post Travelkai.

1) What is the average cost that you have seen of most martial arts places? I took BJJ and mma and it was like 160 a month which got a bit too much after I lost my one job.

2) Ever hear of Abir which is a supposedly an ancient Israel martial art which seems to have some of the attacks based on the Hebrew alphabet. http://www.abirwarriorarts.com/en

3) With all of this training could you beat Little Dark? If so would you be willing to do a pay per view video of the fight?

[OGNorCal707]

Great thread I have studied a handful of these styles, although I am sure I am no where near TravelerKai's level, I will chime in with my thoughts and critiques of the styles I have trained.

To start I spent my first few years solely training an adapted style of Kung Fu that is based primarily on Wing Chun with a little bit of Hung Gar (Tiger Crane) mixed in as well, I achieved the first level yellow sash belt. I went all in on Kung Fu (wing chun) at first thinking it was a great style for self defense and while it does have lots of good elements, I now can see a lot of it's holes.

First off the stance sucks for real life application, but more than that the punching style sucks, there's not a lot of power there and aside from rolling punches (which I think is only good if your opponent is already hurt or highly dazed) there are basically no punch combination. I never once learned a punch combination in the way that a boxer will learn jab, cross, hook after his third week. On top of that in Wing Chun you're always trying to block every shot, we didn't learn to cover up like in boxing. If you're fighting a boxer who is throwing 3-4 punch combinations, there's no way you're blocking every punch, sometimes you just got to cover up and eat those shot on your arms or let your hands take most of the punishment away from your face.

Next I studied about a year and half of Kali/Escrima, from what I understand there are variations of the Filipino martial arts, but usually Kali/Arnis/And Escrima are more or less different names for the same style. As Kai said this is a vary practical and brutal style of martial arts, my main gripe with it is how it's taught. My instructors basically focused 70% of the time on the stick training, which is the bread and butter of the style, and yes the stick motions translate over the empty hands. The issue I had is I'm trying to get as good as I can at hand to hand combat, and felt like the stick fighting wasn't really getting me where I wanted to go. I feel like the chances of me getting into a stick fight are like next to nothing compared to a fist fight in the streets. Most Escrima instructors will make you train for a year before they really start to dig into the empty hand techniques. If you tell them you don't want to train stick it will be considered disrespectful to them and the style.

Most of my training recently over the past couple years has been focused on Muay Thai, and I think it's the most effective empty hand striking style I have come across. It's hard style that toughens you up and incorporates the entire body with strikes, and it's very brutal and has the ability to seriously hurt people. Now my main critiques will be that if anything it's too flat footed in the foot work and Thai fighters usually just come forward and don't work a lot of angles with their foot work or attacks, if you're flat footed and just moving in straight lines, it can be really tough if you're fight a guy like a Dominic Cruz with crazy footwork, always moving and cutting angles. Also being a sport that exclusively trains in boxing gloves there are a lot of technique with empty hands that you'd learn in say Escrima and Wing Chun, grabs, pulls, etc. that you can't real execute well in Muay Thai due to the bulkiness of the glove.

Any how I have a bunch more I can add later when I have more time, just wanted to break down a little further some issues with these styles, I think to be really exceptional at striking or grappling you need to blend styles, for example a guy with extensive Muay Thai mixed with boxing and Wing Chun, will have an advantage over just a pure Muay Thai guy, the same way a guy with wrestling, Sambo, an BJJ, may have a greater advantage over just a pure BJJ guy.

That's why I like "mixed martial arts", not necessarily MMA in the UFC sport way, but actually mixing martial arts together, love it when I'm sparing and I throw some great boxing combination, and then back up only to throw a Kung Fu side kick, then a flying knee from Muay Thai. It helps having multiple "tools in your tool box".

[TravelerKai]

(06-22-2016 12:47 PM)kbell Wrote:  

Great post Travelkai.

1) What is the average cost that you have seen of most martial arts places? I took BJJ and mma and it was like 160 a month which got a bit too much after I lost my one job.

2) Ever hear of Abir which is a supposedly an ancient Israel martial art which seems to have some of the attacks based on the Hebrew alphabet. http://www.abirwarriorarts.com/en

3) With all of this training could you beat Little Dark? If so would you be willing to do a pay per view video of the fight?

1) That greatly depends upon the style, the location (cost of living matters), the teacher and his lineage, and many more factors. Too broad to take a guess like that. Your best bet is to call 3 places that offer the same style in that city and average out the prices. A Gracie JiuJitsu affliate is going to run higher than a typical BJJ place, unless the guy running the BJJ place has a bad ass lineage like he got his black belt from Rickson Gracie/Royce Gracie or Mario Sperry, etc. Another factor is if the guy placed well in international BJJ tournaments or has some fame to his name in BJJ/MMA.

2. Nah never heard of it.

3. Who told you that I was not Little Dark?

[IDrinkYourMilkShake]

Outstandig datasheet TK! I want to ask what mix of styles is do you prefer?
Also I just wonder... Im a muay thai practicioner, with some western boxing, and Im really interested on start doing judo. You wrote that its not that good for selfe defence so I wonder, isnt it? I used to work in a psych ward and there was some judokas that where pretty good on taking down ppl and holding them there. And they swear that the gi was very good to similate clothes on ppl. And like some of you guy menthioned, the part about how to fall right might save you. I also have to point out a sad fact that these days there is a high amount of (what WalkingMan called) "McThaijos", gyms that claims to teach muay thai but is rubbish, with bad boxing, no clinch nor elbows. Gyms where some ppl think they are the shit and that they can beat up anyone but wont compete, but once they get one hard hit in sparring they shrink to cry babies, have seen it many times.

[KC4]

@TK are you willing to more in depth fight breakdowns? Mma or kickboxing? Would love to see you breakdown fighters like buakaw, nieky holzken or dominick cruz

[TravelerKai]

(06-22-2016 04:51 PM)IDrinkYourMilkShake Wrote:  

Outstandig datasheet TK! I want to ask what mix of styles is do you prefer?
Also I just wonder... Im a muay thai practicioner, with some western boxing, and Im really interested on start doing judo. You wrote that its not that good for selfe defence so I wonder, isnt it? I used to work in a psych ward and there was some judokas that where pretty good on taking down ppl and holding them there. And they swear that the gi was very good to similate clothes on ppl. And like some of you guy menthioned, the part about how to fall right might save you. I also have to point out a sad fact that these days there is a high amount of (what WalkingMan called) "McThaijos", gyms that claims to teach muay thai but is rubbish, with bad boxing, no clinch nor elbows. Gyms where some ppl think they are the shit and that they can beat up anyone but wont compete, but once they get one hard hit in sparring they shrink to cry babies, have seen it many times.

You know what, that might be an oversight on my part. I should have made a distinction somewhere that in countries where bad guys do not have guns or commonly carry knives, styles like Judo or even boxing become alot better for self defense, than usual.

When I say something is not great for self defense, I am talking guns, sticks, machetes, knives, multiple opponents, broken glass bottles on the ground and other unsafe environments, cramped and crowded spaces (like a club, concert, restaurant), etc.

You cannot Judo throw a guy at a crowded bar that just told you he is about to smash your face with a glass bottle (getting glassed). Judo does not teach you how to deal with this either. Would a black belt in Judo get smashed in the face like that? Probably not, but they would have to improvise alot on the fly. They would probably grab the guy by his collars, with a gi choke, turn him around and rear naked choke him out. Because the place is packed there is not enough room for sweeps and throws.

Would your average blue belt in Judo do this? Probably not.

When making a recommendation for someone on self defense, you have to factor in the time they will be alive before they can get reasonably advanced enough to improvise like that, and take care of themselves outside.

Someone with 3-5 months of FMA/Silat, Systema, Aikido, Krav Maga, Japanese Ju Jitsu, etc. should be able to take care of that situation without too much effort.

On the other hand, a high school or collegiate wrestler (BJJ guys too...) might double leg takedown that guy and make a big mess, knocking over girls, other dudes, drinks, etc. A big risk is others getting pissed off and kicking you in the ribs while you and that guy fight on the ground.

Self defense involves risk assessment. If you are not trained on these things, you may not be able to think about these factors in a split second. A guy with a bottle in his hand means you have ~1 second to make a decision. Practice at class will have you prepared to use an appropriate action, because you guys do this stuff repeatedly.

Repetition = Muscle memory.

Honestly when people grab me from behind, I kinda zone out. Then they are on the ground, the next second, and it could have been just horseplay or a joke. My close friends and relatives, except one brother tries not to surprise me like that. One of my brothers just likes trolling me lol.

I actually used to test my higher BJJ/Judo belts like that too. When he is changing his clothes, talking, or walking home, we just jump him from his blindside and see how he reacts. It really needs to be second nature, in order to obtain mastery. That and the look on their face is funny.

Anyway, you are right about fake Muay Thai gyms. Some of those gyms that say Muay Thai actually teach American Kickboxing or just a hogepoge of junk. I was lucky, I learned Muay Thai from a guy that lived in Thailand and learned it there. He even kicked the young fruit tree the traditional way. He kicked our asses every night and told us we were pussies and would not last in Thailand. I got really good at MT because of him being tough on us.

Later he had a decent career in the UFC (Waves at Chowder Head!). Funny thing is that UFC fans seemed to not know out about his Muay Thai skills because he is known for his black belt in BJJ and his submissions. I don't think Dana White or Joe Rogan ever knew or mentioned that he lived in Thailand. Shit he used to even underground fight in strange parts of the world.

Funny how things work out like that.

[TravelerKai]

(06-22-2016 05:39 PM)KC4 Wrote:  

@TK are you willing to more in depth fight breakdowns? Mma or kickboxing? Would love to see you breakdown fighters like buakaw, nieky holzken or dominick cruz

Do you want to do some film study breakdowns? MMA might be harder due to UFC copyright bs. Let me see what I can dig up on them first.

[chicane]

(06-22-2016 05:57 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

You cannot Judo throw a guy at a crowded bar that just told you he is about to smash your face with a glass bottle (getting glassed). Judo does not teach you how to deal with this either. Would a black belt in Judo get smashed in the face like that? Probably not, but they would have to improvise alot on the fly. They would probably grab the guy by his collars, with a gi choke, turn him around and rear naked choke him out. Because the place is packed there is not enough room for sweeps and throws.

Would your average blue belt in Judo do this? Probably not.

Compared to the typical violent drunk you are likely to encounter in a bar, a brown/black belt Judoka will have several advantages. A solid sense of balance, good upper body strength, decent reflexes. In addition two of the throws in the fist eight that are taught to white belts can be used at face to face distance. It's been decades, so I don't remember the names.

One the other hand, finding a good dojo is tough these days. I recently ran into a black belt who didn't know the difference between a do and a jitsu. Sad. The BJJ places have wiped out most judo dojos.

[Rocha]

Best defense against a knife attacker...

just kidding ))

Great Datasheet TravelerKai, +1.

I am in my early 30s, and started training martial arts at 28 (after many years of inactivity due to a bad footbal/soccer related injury, and some bad lifestyle choices) I am addicted, best decision I have made while in my late 20s. So my advice to guys asking if 30s or 40s is too late to start, my reply is that no, it is never late, very hardly you will be in worst shape than I was back then when I started.

Currently I hold a BJJ blue belt from a Gracie Barra academy, and in the last 7 months been dedicated to K1 style kickboxing, but we train some elbows, though never in sparring. In the meanwhile have flirted a couple of times with Judo and Muay Thai, having had the opportunity to train for free with high level athletes mainly in the former.

As for BJJ, I will share just a few thoughts, it is a very useful martial art like any, in the academy I used to train and where still there is an open door, the other martial arts where never bashed, quite the opposite, it was always reeinforced that all martial are arts good in their own way. I just got fed up a little with the sports component of it, and what I perceived a lack of real life application for many popular techniques (spider guard, de la riva guard, jumping guard, berimbolo...everything related to ass on the floor), still the chokes, armbars or leglocks are awesome and brutal, the sprawls, guard passes, gaining the dominant position in a ground fight, some small leverage throws. It is a great art in fact, my curiosity just made me experiment a striking style, and I am really happy and having more fun now. Also does not helped what I perceived (not in my academy) a growing attitude in BJJ academies and circles, that it is a superior martial art, and that every submission win in an MMA match is just the job of the winner having a superior mastering of a superior martial art (see Nate Diaz vs McGregor...as if Diaz did not punished him before with strikes).

I am still a newbie in all of this, but I am loving the ride, and I think I will still feel like a newbie forever.
Finally, unless someone has a high track record in professional, olympic or even amateur fighting, if that someone considers himself a good martial artist, then he is training with the wrong kind of people.

Nothing kills better your ego and puts your feet back on the ground than to get a beating inside an academy/gym (better there than in street confrontation).

Anyway, and regarding the Datasheet, in the framework of my lack of experience, but just have some criticism regarding 3 points to the cons you have placed regarding Boxing:

2) Limited street and self-defense application. -----> Do not think so, a high level boxer can KO multiple attackers with a well placed punch in each.

4) No kick defense. -----> also do not agree, they can defend a kick like they would defend a punch, with the elbows and body movement in the mid section, and hands/arms in the head, only legs are exposed.

5) Heavy dependence on footwork, take the ability to have footwork from a boxer and they are done. ----> No way, a Boxer can knock someone out from a standing still position.