[jbkunt2]

Hi all,

I do weights three times a week (push, pull, mixed) to failure.

I also go running or do crossfit twice pw.

I have a protein shake with full fat milk and peanut butter afterwards.

I get 8 hours sleep every night.

I'm 29.

I'd like to reduce soreness a bit and/or decrease recovery time. Has anyone any tips know how to do this?

Cold baths?
Sauna or steam room?
Stretching? If so, when?
Anything else?

Thanks very much.

[RexImperator]

Take BCAAs before and during your workout.

Peanut butter has an incomplete amino acid profile as I recall.

[Isaac Jordan]

Collagen supplementation:

(01-13-2016 09:41 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

(01-13-2016 08:19 PM)Isaac Jordan Wrote:  

I'm no doctor, but I'd suggest giving collagen supplementation a try.

Most of us aren't getting much (if any) of it in our daily diets, but it's a primary component of the body's joints and tendons. It's been a real game-changer for my recovery, and I couldn't recommend it more highly.

Were you the first guy to recommend this on the forum? I need to thank you if so. This stuff is absolutely fantastic. I've been taking it for a few months now and it's one of, if not the single most noticeably effective supplements I've taken. It's almost entirely eliminated nagging joint soreness in the day or two following a heavy lifting session (particularly squats and deadlifts). I would call it nothing less than an absolute must for any man 25+ who wants optimal health, and especially for guys lifting weights. It's become a staple supplement for me along with the proven favorites like Vitamin D3, fish oil, Zinc, Vitamin C and Magnesium. Anyone on the fence about ordering collagen, I encourage you to give it a try. I can personally vouch for it 100%.

[redbeard]

(05-30-2016 10:26 PM)Isaac Jordan Wrote:  

Collagen supplementation:

(01-13-2016 09:41 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

(01-13-2016 08:19 PM)Isaac Jordan Wrote:  

I'm no doctor, but I'd suggest giving collagen supplementation a try.

Most of us aren't getting much (if any) of it in our daily diets, but it's a primary component of the body's joints and tendons. It's been a real game-changer for my recovery, and I couldn't recommend it more highly.

Were you the first guy to recommend this on the forum? I need to thank you if so. This stuff is absolutely fantastic. I've been taking it for a few months now and it's one of, if not the single most noticeably effective supplements I've taken. It's almost entirely eliminated nagging joint soreness in the day or two following a heavy lifting session (particularly squats and deadlifts). I would call it nothing less than an absolute must for any man 25+ who wants optimal health, and especially for guys lifting weights. It's become a staple supplement for me along with the proven favorites like Vitamin D3, fish oil, Zinc, Vitamin C and Magnesium. Anyone on the fence about ordering collagen, I encourage you to give it a try. I can personally vouch for it 100%.

Any reason why the Great Lakes is so good? What about the other colors?

I've been using the Now Brand Gelatin, it's much less expensive on Amazon. Ingredients: 100% Beef Gelatin.

[birthday cat]

(05-30-2016 05:06 PM)jbkunt2 Wrote:  

I do weights three times a week (push, pull, mixed) to failure.

I also go running or do crossfit twice pw.

1) Can you clarify? Are you working out 5 times per week? 3 sessions for weights and 2 sessions of either crossfit or running?

2) What exactly are you doing in your weight sessions? What exercises? How many sets and reps for each exercise?

3) Running and Crossfit - What distances are your running? Are going to a crossfit gym or performing the WOD on your own.

4) What are your goals? Size, aesthetics, strength, athleticism, compete in crossfit or bodybuilding or powerlifting?

What is probably happening is that your programming sucks, you are over-training, and you need to eat more.

I can't think of any scenario where it would make sense to do weight training to failure 3 times per week and crossfit or running twice per week.

[aeroektar]

How long have you been training OP? The DOMS will decrease overtime as the muscles become used to consistent strenuous work, I never get DOMS so bad that I cant workout a couple days later, but early on that wasn't the case. If your hitting each muscle group 3 times a week and going to failure with every workout it may just be too much.

[Isaac Jordan]

(05-30-2016 11:10 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

Any reason why the Great Lakes is so good? What about the other colors?

I've been using the Now Brand Gelatin, it's much less expensive on Amazon. Ingredients: 100% Beef Gelatin.

I like Great Lakes primarily because they source their hides from grass-fed cattle. Grass-fed beef is superior in multiple ways to conventional beef, where the cows are pumped full of corn/wheat/soybeans (which are themselves soaked in nasty pesticides like glyphosate AKA RoundUp), and then often given large doses of antibiotics when they (surprise surprise) become weak and sickly.

When you're isolating a single compound like collagen it's probably not a big deal, but I've made it a habit to choose grass-fed whenever possible.

I also like the green-canned collagen hydrolysate because it mixes easily in both hot and cool liquids, none of that annoying clumping you get from regular gelatin. Haven't tried any of the other colors though, as I've been 100% satisfied with the green.

[samsamsam]

ZMA

[Hannibal]

I've been experimenting with cold showers the last week and they have definitely helped me alleviate soreness.

This makes sense. A cold shower reduces bodily inflammation. It does a lot, lot more than that though. I will post in the "cold ass shower" thread about the difference it has made in me so far.

[MiscBrah]

(05-31-2016 11:24 AM)Hannibal Wrote:  

I've been experimenting with cold showers the last week and they have definitely helped me alleviate soreness.

This makes sense. A cold shower reduces bodily inflammation. It does a lot, lot more than that though. I will post in the "cold ass shower" thread about the difference it has made in me so far.

I love cold showers but just make sure you wait an hour after your workout. Doing them immedaitely after training will inhibit muscle and strength gains.

Rhonda Patrick has a very good article on cold showers

https://www.foundmyfitness.com/reports/cold-stress.pdf

[ScrapperTL]

I know this sounds counter-intuitive but recent studies have shown that walking at a slow pace for a decent amount of time (30 minutes or more) actually reduces muscle soreness and speeds up recovery time.

Contrary to popular belief, doing "nothing" is only moderately better than doing "too much" for recovery.
The best thing to do is to keep the blood flowing.

Anecdotally I know this is true because I had an issue with my upper back muscles that I went to the Doctor for. He asked what I have been doing to help recovery and I told him I stopped all exercise.

He told me that THAT was my problem and that I needed to resume light exercise (he gave me weight bands to work with) to heal my issue.
Sure enough it worked and my upper back was back to normal inside of a week.

If your curious, my shoulder blades were stuck in the "jutted out" position because of my prior obsession with pull-ups. Was banging out like 3 sets to failure per day, every day. Needless to say this was a bad idea!

Also, steroids <--- best possible thing for recovery (if your into that sorta thing)

[Rush87]

First of all, if you're doing high intensity exercise, you will be fighting a losing battle unless your carbohydrate intake is adequate. Contrast [Hot/Cold] showers help. Foam Roller. BCAA's during workout, Glutamine post, active recovery [I.E: Slow walking], but more than anything, carbohydrate is more important than protein for recovery and muscle soreness.

[Benoit]

Foam rolling and cold showers help a lot, but hands down the most effective thing for me is intraworkout carbs - specifically a scoop of "Highly Branched Cyclic Dextrin".

Definite reduction in soreness post-workout even when going full-bore regularly.

[XXL]

(05-31-2016 11:47 AM)MiscBrah Wrote:  

I love cold showers but just make sure you wait an hour after your workout. Doing them immedaitely after training will inhibit muscle and strength gains

Why? I'm interested in that topic.

[MiscBrah]

(06-02-2016 01:56 PM)XXL Wrote:  

(05-31-2016 11:47 AM)MiscBrah Wrote:  

I love cold showers but just make sure you wait an hour after your workout. Doing them immedaitely after training will inhibit muscle and strength gains

Why? I'm interested in that topic.

Rhonda Patrick goes into a good amount of detail in the link I posted

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26174323

Men who took a 10 minute cold shower immediately after training received significantly less muscle and strength gains compared to the control. You don't want to interfere with the inflammation response which also means not taking high dose antioxidants or over the counter pain medication like NSAIDS after training.

[rawbeefcake]

I'm not 100% up to date on the research but last i checked researchers believed DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness) was the body's neuromuscular reaction to a new and strenuous movement - there is a reaction at the muscles but also centrally at the brain whereby the brain is reconfiguring motor units (or so they believe). This is the way the body adjusts to new movements to make them more efficient over time so it would make sense.

To reduce the soreness, make sure you are eating healthy (and enough) and sleeping well. That is key. I would say if you're muscles are so sore that they are inflamed (bulbous, swollen, warm) just rest, shower and do gentle stretches and wait it out, do a different body part or take time off the gym or do cardio.. you aint gonna get anything out of that sore muscle/joint.

Personally OTC supplements didn't help me that much.. you'll get more out of food, sleep and stretching. If you're sore but not inflamed then you'll be fine if you do the following:
- static stretching (sustained end of range stretch of muscle with DOMS) I would hold for 3-5 minutes and repeat twice/day in days following workout.
- dynamic stretching (low intensity bodyweight exercises squats/lunges/pushups/dead hangs)
- foam rolling - most guys don't do enough of this, don't be a pussy do two or three minutes on one area (lateral thigh, posterior thigh, etc)
- gentle cardio

The research clearly indicates that stretching/DTM is better for DOMS then gentle cardio. Do the stretching plenty though or it wont work as well.

I use to go to the disabled bathroom at work and do deep squats (i'd just sit at the bottom of the squat) multiple times a day when i was first doing heavy squats.. its always worse the day after the day after

Ps hang in there it will stop being so sore after a while of doing workouts even doing X-fit, you'll just end up having tired muscles instead of soreness

[AboveAverageJoe]

Stay hydrated, take hot magnesium sulfate (Epsom salts) bath, get a fine, young, aspiring massage therapist to come over and show you what she has got. Nothing like some deep tissue massage therapy when you have muscles.

[birthday cat]

(06-04-2016 08:18 AM)rawbeefcake Wrote:  

To reduce the soreness, make sure you are eating healthy (and enough) and sleeping well. That is key. I would say if you're muscles are so sore that they are inflamed (bulbous, swollen, warm) just rest, shower and do gentle stretches and wait it out, do a different body part or take time off the gym or do cardio.. you aint gonna get anything out of that sore muscle/joint.

You shouldn't have chronic soreness if you have been running your program consistently, eating well and sleeping well. If you are doing these three things and are still very sore then you are probably overtraining. There are a lot of good ideas in this thread but they will be like putting a band-aid over a bullet hole if you are overtraining.

The original poster seems to have disappeared from this thread but I suspect his programming is off. I used to train like him when I was younger and thought I was smarter than the experts who write programs, i.e. I would try to be a bodybuilder on Monday, an endurance athlete on Tuesday, etc. That shit leads to plateaus very quickly and doesn't work at all when you get older.

Greyskull Linear Program is a great program with a lot of flexibility depending on your training goals and includes a couple of optional conditioning sessions.

Justin Lascek's strength and conditioning program is another good choice. It is a similar to workout A and B from Starting Strength or StrongLifts on Monday and Thursday with conditioning on Tuesday and Friday or Saturday.

[alexdagr81]

I take contrast showers after I workout and foam roll. If I fail to take a contrast shower, I take a cold one before I go to bed. Though I say they are small parts, compared to me sleeping around 11pm and splurging on high glycemic foods after 6pm.

[Designate]

I agree with Birthday Cat, this seems like a case of overtraining. To which none of our prescribed remedies will do much good, especially in the long run.

To add to the supplement side of things, the two that have made the biggest impact on reducing soreness and speeding up recovery time have been Collagen (Type 1 & 3) + Curcumin/Tumeric. I wrote about my positive experience with the latter a while back.

(09-15-2015 07:28 AM)Designate Wrote:  

With that said I have been taking Curcumin supplements twice-a-day and eating ground Turmeric Root with some of my meals. Since I started this April/May I have seen a notable effect on reducing overall inflammation and the speeding up of my recovery time to the point where I am a big believer in it's effectiveness. Just make sure you get a Curcumin supplement with bioperine (black pepper) or just eat foods with ground black pepper, as it improves absorption.

It seems to be backed by science also (scientific study links within this article): http://flowathletics.com/curcumin-turmeric-athletes/

Quote:

Benefits to Athletes of Curcumin and Turmeric Curcumin Is A Natural Anti-Inflammatory

Inflammation isn’t always a red bump or swelling in a localized area. To put it simply inflammation is a natural defense of your body – it helps the body to heal naturally. The symptoms of that are swelling, redness and … inflammation of the area. This is most certainly OK and almost necessary when you have an injury that requires rest and recovery.

Inflammation (especially in athletes) is often mild, but enough to hold us back and negatively affect our training process. Being sore after a heavy workout is a form of inflammation, but even a relatively mild injury is a cause for concern. Specifically inflammation has a nasty side effect known as “secondary muscle damage” [3], the very thing that causes you to feel sore after a workout. [4]

Inflammation is part of the body’s immune response. At first, it’s beneficial when tissues need care and protection. But, in chronic cases, inflammation can cause further inflammation; it can become self-perpetuating. More inflammation is created in response to the existing inflammation.

For many athletes the issue of inflammation is never resolved, it’s an ongoing struggle. Piling up on top of each other are little injuries, followed by waves of inflammation, which cause more and more damage overtime. Acute inflammation is OK, chronic inflammation is a serious problem.

Curcumin, just might contain the answer. Let’s take a look at what the research says.

First of all, curcumin is more potent than some anti-inflammatory drugs1[5], and I prefer to opt in the favor of natural vs. synthetic if the race is even close. Although the process isn’t yet well understood, the general consensus is that curcumin actually inhibits inflammation at the molecular level.

Here’s a possible, if not yet fully tested, explanation:

It seems that curcumin can bl1ock NF-kB, a molecule that travels into the nuclei of cells and turns on genes related to inflammation. [6], [7], [8]

But Curcumin doesn’t just prevent damage from chronic inflammation, it helps you to actually recover from and undo the damage.

Curcumin Helps Damaged Muscles Recover Faster

While the anti-inflammatory and protective properties of curcumin are pretty impressive, is it possible that this plant chemical can also promote and speed up the healing of a damaged tissue? Do you acquire wolverine-like powers if you eat a pound of curcumin? No. Can curcumin help athletes recover from slightly damaged muscles? One animal study suggests it can. It was found that mice treated with the optimal dose [20 microgram/kg/day] showed muscle recovery after 4 days that untreated mice only obtained after 20 days. So curcumin sped up muscle recovery by a factor of five.

Recovery is an important cycle in your training regiment. Simply “not working out” is not an efficient way to restore what you’ve lost during a grueling practice. Although taking time off is important, underutilizing your time off (especially if you are a competitive athlete) is often overlooked. Get plenty of sleep, drink plenty of water and eat well is all sound advice.

Combine it with improved muscle recovery and increased anti-oxidative activity and you have a real edge over the average recovery method.

[jbkunt2]

Thanks for all the valued feedback.

To answer the question a few of you have asked:

I was aiming to do a plan like this:

M: Pull
T: Crossfit or 4 mile jog
W: Push
T: Crossfit or jog
F: Pull and Squats

The Pull and Push plans are here:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/beginner...ase-3.html

My goal is some weight loss, toning/conditioning, and to generally be fit as a fiddle.

I am currently skinny-fat, but not too bad. Maybe 18-20% bf.

5' 8''
160 pounds

I would like to add muscle, but I don't want to eat a caloric surplus until I have dropped another 7-10 pounds really.

Thanks again for all the comments.

[Fortis]

(06-07-2016 09:00 PM)jbkunt2 Wrote:  

I would like to add muscle, but I don't want to eat a caloric surplus until I have dropped another 7-10 pounds really.

You should just do one or the other. I'd focus on cutting weight and then gaining weight, Or gaining weight and then cutting. Doing both at the same time is nearly impossible.

[jbkunt2]

(06-07-2016 09:12 PM)Fortis Wrote:  

(06-07-2016 09:00 PM)jbkunt2 Wrote:  

I would like to add muscle, but I don't want to eat a caloric surplus until I have dropped another 7-10 pounds really.

You should just do one or the other. I'd focus on cutting weight and then gaining weight, Or gaining weight and then cutting. Doing both at the same time is nearly impossible.

Yes, seems sensible. I guess my current goal is best summarized as:

- Cut 8 pounds of blubber
- Maintain as much muscle as pos
- Improve fitness/agility/endurance

[lex the impaler]

Went ahead and got lab results yesterday.
Estradiol - 32.5 pg/ML
FSH 3.5 mIU/mL
LH 6.5 mIU/mL
TOTAL T. 463 ng/dL

I'm in my mid twenties. Lift heavy 4 times per week. Eat very clean. Bright light therapy. Don't drink much, maybe twice a month. At least 7 hours of sleep daily. 215lbs @17% bf. 6'1"
Going to get a legit blood test done by the doctor, something a little more comprehensive. I'm thinking my estradiol levels are quite high. I do feel like shit most days. The textbook symptoms of low T. Any suggestions?

[ScrapperTL]

(06-15-2016 10:36 AM)lex the impaler Wrote:  

Went ahead and got lab results yesterday.
Estradiol - 32.5 pg/ML
FSH 3.5 mIU/mL
LH 6.5 mIU/mL
TOTAL T. 463 ng/dL

I'm in my mid twenties. Lift heavy 4 times per week. Eat very clean. Bright light therapy. Don't drink much, maybe twice a month. At least 7 hours of sleep daily. 215lbs @17% bf. 6'1"
Going to get a legit blood test done by the doctor, something a little more comprehensive. I'm thinking my estradiol levels are quite high. I do feel like shit most days. The textbook symptoms of low T. Any suggestions?

What is your diet like?

I would suggest eating only the following foods:
Meat, Seafood, Vegetables, Fruits and Nuts.
Drink: Water only

Do this for a couple weeks and re-test
If Test is still in the 400's, you may consider

Trying one of the following options:
1) TRT
2) Low Dose Daily Clomid
3) Low Dose Daily Exemestane
4) Transdermal DHEA
5) Very Low Dose Daily Clomid + Exemestane
6) Step 5 + Transdermal DHEA
7) Adjusting/Tweaking lifestyle habits even further and re-test

If those were my test levels I would jump straight to Step 6 and I would apply the Transdermal DHEA to Traps/Shoulders/Testicles daily.
However everyone must make their own decisions.

Also, this explains why your bodyfat % is so high despite you being young and putting a lot of effort into resistance training.

If you decide to go the TRT route, check out http://www.ironandtweed.com this guy has an amazing series that will get you educated on TRT.