[Samseau]

(02-19-2018 05:06 PM)Raylan Givens Wrote:  

I know all of the shit I talked about Christianity in another thread, but this Lent I've decided to rededicate my life to the Orthodox Church and Christ. I attended the Vespers service of Forgiveness Sunday last night. I still have my doubts and my criticisms but I can't deny that I feel deeply called in to the Church. I'm going to lay aside my doubt, lay aside my worldly criticisms, and plunge head first. Yeah I talked shit and I'll eat the crow that is my due.

[debeguiled]

(02-20-2018 07:46 PM)Ranch Hand Wrote:  

(02-20-2018 12:09 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

The Orthodox Church is currently the cool person's church on the internet.

Interesting you say that, as I only observed a couple of hipster/yuppie types - to their credit they appear diligent and committed. Most attendees were either young families with apparent EE roots, or older US converts. Also, many ex-military types. I was in attendance at Veteran's Day and nearly half the men in the room (late 20s up to 60s) went forward for a blessing. Some of these men stand at military position of Attention as if they were on parade. Definitely not a SWPL thing - at least the one I have attended.

It may be cool on the internet, but in person it is a long and arduous service. There is less chance a low-investment virtue signaler is willing/able to put up with this liturgy (at least the 2+ hour standing versions).

I'm curious the basis for your comment.

I wasn't directing my comment at anyone on the forum, more alluding to the fact that I am seeing more and more people talking about it now, when in the past, you never heard a peep.

When do you hear anyone cool say they have become a Baptist, or an Evangelical, or a snake handling madman?

Out of the question.

There is a high degree of social capital in looking down on the Catholic Church right now, seems to be kind of a blood sport.

I follow Jay Dyer, an Orthodox Christian, and he is trying to track down anyone to debate denominations. He gets really deep into angels dancing on the head of a pin stuff, and never really gets around to mentioning the normal Christian stuff, like faith hope and love.

I think part of the reason that it is in vogue right now is that Orthodox believers, on the internet, seem to believe that they have their arguments together better than anyone else, and that is a big part of what drives discourse on the internet, argument.

You have to admit that people like to argue on the internet, and it isn't that big a step to move from arguing about global warming to arguing about faith. It is a perfect way of having it both ways, making a switch without really changing anything.

That is why I think it is popular on the internet, is the cool person's faith at the moment, the Ugg denomination, though that is not a criticism of Orthodoxy, it is a comment on internet culture.

I am firmly in the corner of anyone who has found a faith that works for them, and I don't really care what denomination it is, as long as it is a denomination, not a cult or a heretical sidestep.

It also could be that I am tired of plowing through Jay Dyer videos, listening to all his increasingly nitpicking distinctions between nebulous concepts.

[Raylan Givens]

(02-21-2018 11:54 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  

(02-20-2018 07:46 PM)Ranch Hand Wrote:  

(02-20-2018 12:09 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

The Orthodox Church is currently the cool person's church on the internet.

Interesting you say that, as I only observed a couple of hipster/yuppie types - to their credit they appear diligent and committed. Most attendees were either young families with apparent EE roots, or older US converts. Also, many ex-military types. I was in attendance at Veteran's Day and nearly half the men in the room (late 20s up to 60s) went forward for a blessing. Some of these men stand at military position of Attention as if they were on parade. Definitely not a SWPL thing - at least the one I have attended.

It may be cool on the internet, but in person it is a long and arduous service. There is less chance a low-investment virtue signaler is willing/able to put up with this liturgy (at least the 2+ hour standing versions).

I'm curious the basis for your comment.

I wasn't directing my comment at anyone on the forum, more alluding to the fact that I am seeing more and more people talking about it now, when in the past, you never heard a peep.

When do you hear anyone cool say they have become a Baptist, or an Evangelical, or a snake handling madman?

Out of the question.

There is a high degree of social capital in looking down on the Catholic Church right now, seems to be kind of a blood sport.

I follow Jay Dyer, an Orthodox Christian, and he is trying to track down anyone to debate denominations. He gets really deep into angels dancing on the head of a pin stuff, and never really gets around to mentioning the normal Christian stuff, like faith hope and love.

I think part of the reason that it is in vogue right now is that Orthodox believers, on the internet, seem to believe that they have their arguments together better than anyone else, and that is a big part of what drives discourse on the internet, argument.

You have to admit that people like to argue on the internet, and it isn't that big a step to move from arguing about global warming to arguing about faith. It is a perfect way of having it both ways, making a switch without really changing anything.

That is why I think it is popular on the internet, is the cool person's faith at the moment, the Ugg denomination, though that is not a criticism of Orthodoxy, it is a comment on internet culture.

I am firmly in the corner of anyone who has found a faith that works for them, and I don't really care what denomination it is, as long as it is a denomination, not a cult or a heretical sidestep.

It also could be that I am tired of plowing through Jay Dyer videos, listening to all his increasingly nitpicking distinctions between nebulous concepts.

What seems like nitpicking to some can actually be really be profound. The essence/energy distinction in Orthodoxy and the rejection of the Filioque seem petty and arcane to Western Christians are actually huge theological concepts that almost make Orthodoxy an entirely different religion from Western denominations. How often does the essence/energy distinction get discussed by Roman Catholics or Protestants? I hadn't even heard of it until I started exploring Orthodoxy.

While Jay can come off as kind of self important dick he is legitimately the smartest guy in the room so to speak. The dude has read all of St. Augustine and Aquinas' works, which are extremely tedious on top of nearly every important theological work in Western and Eastern theology. He is very well read.

[Samseau]

While the denominations matter to some degree, they also are totally irrelevant to another degree:

Luke 9:

Quote:

47 and Jesus having seen the reasoning of their heart, having taken hold of a child, set him beside himself,

48 and said to them, `Whoever may receive this child in my name, doth receive me, and whoever may receive me, doth receive Him who sent me, for he who is least among you all -- he shall be great.'

49 And John answering said, `Master, we saw a certain one in thy name casting forth the demons, and we forbade him, because he doth not follow with us;'

50 and Jesus said unto him, `Forbid not, for he who is not against us, is for us.'

[debeguiled]

(02-21-2018 12:58 PM)Raylan Givens Wrote:  

What seems like nitpicking to some can actually be really be profound. The essence/energy distinction in Orthodoxy and the rejection of the Filioque seem petty and arcane to Western Christians are actually huge theological concepts that almost make Orthodoxy an entirely different religion from Western denominations. How often does the essence/energy distinction get discussed by Roman Catholics or Protestants? I hadn't even heard of it until I started exploring Orthodoxy.

[b]While Jay can come off as kind of self important dick he is legitimately the smartest guy in the room so to speak. [/b]The dude has read all of St. Augustine and Aquinas' works, which are extremely tedious on top of nearly every important theological work in Western and Eastern theology. He is very well read.

The best Christian is the one who loves the most, not the smartest guy in the room.

Christianity is open to everyone.

Would you say Dyer is a better Christian than someone with Down Syndrome who joyfully loves his brother?

Overly intellectual people are used to being in the position of leading the charge and waiting for their slower brethren to catch up.

Christianity by its nature overturns this hierarchy, and this is referred to a million times in the NT by Jesus, as well as by Paul in his letters.

When it comes to faith, highly intellectual people are actually bringing up the rear, and they don't even know it.

[Raylan Givens]

(02-21-2018 01:55 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

(02-21-2018 12:58 PM)Raylan Givens Wrote:  

What seems like nitpicking to some can actually be really be profound. The essence/energy distinction in Orthodoxy and the rejection of the Filioque seem petty and arcane to Western Christians are actually huge theological concepts that almost make Orthodoxy an entirely different religion from Western denominations. How often does the essence/energy distinction get discussed by Roman Catholics or Protestants? I hadn't even heard of it until I started exploring Orthodoxy.

[b]While Jay can come off as kind of self important dick he is legitimately the smartest guy in the room so to speak. [/b]The dude has read all of St. Augustine and Aquinas' works, which are extremely tedious on top of nearly every important theological work in Western and Eastern theology. He is very well read.

The best Christian is the one who loves the most, not the smartest guy in the room.

Christianity is open to everyone.

Would you say Dyer is a better Christian than someone with Down Syndrome who joyfully loves his brother?

Overly intellectual people are used to being in the position of leading the charge and waiting for their slower brethren to catch up.

Christianity by its nature overturns this hierarchy, and this is referred to a million times in the NT by Jesus, as well as by Paul in his letters.

When it comes to faith, highly intellectual people are actually bringing up the rear, and they don't even know it.

I don't think I've ever heard Jay call himself a great Christian or a better Christian than anyone else. He's using his God-given intellect and ability to dismantle Western Christianity which quite frankly needs to be destroyed and rebuilt.

The Fathers, the Saints, the Apostles, and Christ all exchanged in words with heretics and nonbelievers. Jay Dyer is a tame little baby compared to St. John Chrysostom or Jesus Christ himself who sternly rebuked the Pharisees and called them sons of the devil, whitewashed tombs, and a brood of vipers. This is to say nothing about his flipping tables and chasing the money changers out of the temple.

Western Christianity is a vacuum of nihilism and a breeding ground for atheism. It needs to be sternly rebuked. Do you think if Christ came back he would be happy with Pope Francis' NewChurch Novus Ordo clownworld Catholic Church or the LGBTQIXYZ123$%^&* friendly Prot denominations with cat lady "bishops" and transgendered queer otherkin priests?

"Given the sentimental nature of their tradition, sober-minded individuals in Europe and America are not churchgoers, because they do not find such sentimentality convincing. Those serious-minded people who do go to Church do so because they are sentimental and inconsistent in their investigation into all fields of inquiry. Under such conditions, a consistent European or American is naturally an atheist and will not become a Roman Catholic or a Protestant. These are hard words, but that is how matters stand. After all a sober-minded scholar can never accept the foundations of Roman Catholic or Protestant theology. This difficulty, together with sentimentality in
their worship, completely alienates some very serious-minded circles form the Roman Catholic and Protestant world. This is why their churches are empty."
-Fr. John Romanides

[debeguiled]

Much as I would love to debate you, it goes against the point I am making, so I will have to decline.

[Ranch Hand]

^^ this series of responses delivers.

I'm traveling a lot til next week, so forgive broken/incomplete response.

RG - I am unaware of the energy/essence dialogue you mentioned. Can you fill me in a bit. I am aware of the Filioque matter; just haven't developed meaningful thought on it yet.

Debeguiled - I am interested in Orthodoxy but not interested in descending into infinitely tighter distinctions/separations of Christianity (you appear to have similar sentiment). Christian denominations seem to take particular pride in such debates. It is unfortunate and has led to a fractured church - more exploitable by referenced heretical/cult sects as well as clearly hostile outside religions.

Debeguiled/Samseau -
When does Orthodoxy church tend to the "faith, hope, Love" type biblical exposition? I appreciate the sermon/homily but understand the liturgy kind of limits an in-Depth pitch one finds in better Churchian experience. Is biblical
Immersion tended in group studies, etc.? Just curious of Orthodoxy approach to personal improvement - bible style.

Samseau - what painting/artist is that? Thanks for the Luke 9 verse - Very pertinent and Central to church unity I suspect (lower case catholic, universal) church.

Question to any men here practicing Orthodoxy: did you get here by ethnic heritage or was this a "return to basics" after plowing endless thot-thickets and resultant bimbo-burnout (I know that condition is unfathomable to many deservedly-respected RvF brothers, but it does occasionally exist).

I need to reread this thread. I've skimmed before, but there is much to digest here.

[Raylan Givens]

(02-21-2018 04:11 PM)debeguiled Wrote:  

Much as I would love to debate you, it goes against the point I am making, so I will have to decline.

I can respect that.

(02-21-2018 04:27 PM)Ranch Hand Wrote:  

^^ this series of responses delivers.

I'm traveling a lot til next week, so forgive broken/incomplete response.

RG - I am unaware of the energy/essence dialogue you mentioned. Can you fill me in a bit. I am aware of the Filioque matter; just haven't developed meaningful thought on it yet.

Ironically I will link you to a Jay Dyer video, he gives a really good breakdown and it is worth the hour listen:

For a very brief layman's description of the essence-energy distinction:
-Eastern theology (and I would contend the first 1000 years of Christendom period) believes that God is mysterious and ultimately unknowable. We can never know God's Essence. We can never attribute any traits to God in a positive fashion, but rather we can say what God is not. This is called apophatic or negative theology.
-But we can partake in God's uncreated Energies. By participating in God's uncreated Energies we can through a process called theosis (which involves purification, fasting, noetic prayer, and illumination) become partakers in the Glory of God and become gods by Grace.
-The East maintains that man can have a direct connection to God vis a vis Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit through a part of our soul called the nous.

-Western theology (originating in part through Augustine, but really picking up with Thomas Aquinas) posits Absolute Divine Simplicity and that there is no distinction between God's Essence and His Energies.
-But "since no man has seen God" this has led to the idea of created grace and has essentially cut mankind off from connection with God.
-Western theology has also pivoted away from the therapeutic outlook on Christ's teachings, sin, and forgiveness to a more punitive view of sin and forgiveness which has led to a lot of distortions that we see in Western Christian denominations.

Quote:

Debeguiled - I am interested in Orthodoxy but not interested in descending into infinitely tighter distinctions/separations of Christianity (you appear to have similar sentiment). Christian denominations seem to take particular pride in such debates. It is unfortunate and has led to a fractured church - more exploitable by referenced heretical/cult sects as well as clearly hostile outside religions.

Debeguiled/Samseau -
When does Orthodoxy church tend to the "faith, hope, Love" type biblical exposition? I appreciate the sermon/homily but understand the liturgy kind of limits an in-Depth pitch one finds in better Churchian experience. Is biblical
Immersion tended in group studies, etc.? Just curious of Orthodoxy approach to personal improvement - bible style.

Samseau - what painting/artist is that? Thanks for the Luke 9 verse - Very pertinent and Central to church unity I suspect (lower case catholic, universal) church.

Question to any men here practicing Orthodoxy: did you get here by ethnic heritage or was this a "return to basics" after plowing endless thot-thickets and resultant bimbo-burnout (I know that condition is unfathomable to many deservedly-respected RvF brothers, but it does occasionally exist).

I need to reread this thread. I've skimmed before, but there is much to digest here.

I know you've addressed some of these questions to other posters but I would like to endeavor some answers. I would say that Orthodoxy has the most unity of faith and has the advantage of 2000 years of unbroken tradition, teaching, and faith. What Christ taught to the Apostles and the very first Christians practiced is what the Orthodox Church practices and teaches today (with some obvious evolutions in liturgy and Church governance). But remember, if you are expecting perfection you are going to be disappointed. The Church is best thought of as a hospital for sinners, so it is full of men who are seeking a cure. Not perfect men.

As for the Orthodox approach to personal improvement...it is immense. The requirements for fasting during Lent for instance is the standard that was developed out of the monasteries. Orthodoxy doesn't make a distinction between the expectations for monastic life and laity when it comes to fasting. Essentially all meat and dairy products are restricted during the 40 days of Lent.

Now, the Orthodox approach to fasting is different than the Catholic idea. In Catholicism the requirements are strictly enforced under the penalty of sin and very rigidly laid out. Orthodoxy conceives of fasting for one as not just pertaining to food, but a more holistic view of life improvement. Secondly, we don't fast for the sake of fasting. We fast to purify ourselves to help along the path of theosis. Fasting is part of the curative prescription laid out by the Church. If you're new to Orthodoxy and don't live in an Orthodox family the idea of following the fasting rules to the letter is pretty unrealistic and no one, not a priest, not a bishop, would advise you to do that.

Most homilies are pretty brief, but there are an endless volume of good Orthodox books to read.

I arrived to Orthodoxy by exhausting the Western Christian traditions and burning myself out in Catholicism. I was really ready to write off Christianity until I discovered Orthodoxy. I don't really consider Orthodoxy to be "Christian" at least not in modern Western conception of that term. It is a different religion to me than what you find in the average Catholic parish and any Protestant denomination.

[Super_Fire]

(02-21-2018 11:54 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  

I am firmly in the corner of anyone who has found a faith that works for them, and I don't really care what denomination it is, as long as it is a denomination, not a cult or a heretical sidestep.

Aside from the Catholic and Orthodox churches, all denominations so far have proven themselves to be cults and heretical sidesteps.

[Samseau]

(02-21-2018 09:32 PM)Super_Fire Wrote:  

(02-21-2018 11:54 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  

I am firmly in the corner of anyone who has found a faith that works for them, and I don't really care what denomination it is, as long as it is a denomination, not a cult or a heretical sidestep.

Aside from the Catholic and Orthodox churches, all denominations so far have proven themselves to be cults and heretical sidesteps.

I am not so sure about that. Protestantism had a brief, but glorious run in America. It produced great fruit, which is the measure Jesus tells us to use to judge something.

Protestantism actually had a lot in common with the Orthodox, before the 1960's. But the lack of a central structure eventually has watered down their faith to the point where few protestants can agree on Biblical teachings anymore.

Personally, I prefer the protestants to the catholics. I think the Pope as an institution is an heresy against Christ. But it takes more than simply rejecting the Catholic church to form a good church, and that is why Protestantism is failing in modern times. It takes more than a negative doctrine to form a church.

I believe that had Protestants had known about the Orthodox church in the 15th-16th centuries, they would have simply converted instead of forming their own churches.

[Samseau]

Quote:

Samseau - what painting/artist is that?

Apostle Paul being blinded by Jesus. Highly relevant to Raylan's recent conversion, wasn't more than a few weeks ago I was teaching him history lessons on why Christianity is great in a political thread (Can a Nation be inclusive and survive by LDN).

[Super_Fire]

(02-22-2018 11:17 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

(02-21-2018 09:32 PM)Super_Fire Wrote:  

(02-21-2018 11:54 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  

I am firmly in the corner of anyone who has found a faith that works for them, and I don't really care what denomination it is, as long as it is a denomination, not a cult or a heretical sidestep.

Aside from the Catholic and Orthodox churches, all denominations so far have proven themselves to be cults and heretical sidesteps.

I am not so sure about that. Protestantism had a brief, but glorious run in America. It produced great fruit, which is the measure Jesus tells us to use to judge something.

Protestantism actually had a lot in common with the Orthodox, before the 1960's. But the lack of a central structure eventually has watered down their faith to the point where few protestants can agree on Biblical teachings anymore.

Personally, I prefer the protestants to the catholics. I think the Pope as an institution is an heresy against Christ. But it takes more than simply rejecting the Catholic church to form a good church, and that is why Protestantism is failing in modern times. It takes more than a negative doctrine to form a church.

I believe that had Protestants had known about the Orthodox church in the 15th-16th centuries, they would have simply converted instead of forming their own churches.

Protestantism was a looting operation to rob the Church of its land and coffers, and pave the way for a usury-based modern capitalist system. It's Catholics trying to have their cake and it too by claiming to be Christians but acting like Jews.

[IronShark]

I've been attending some Orthodox Churches around North London in the last few months. Some of them are Greek and some of them are Eastern European (Russian, Romanian, Bulgarian and even Georgian).

I was born and raised in a very atheistic family. I am advised by the father to start reading this book:

Orthodox Dogmatic Theology https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0938635697/r...KAbEPY69X0

I should say the first couple of chapters are quite dry. But it gets better after that.

I also would like to suggest this YouTube channel:

https://www.youtube.com/user/y2am

I haven't been baptized yet. But I'm curious and building up my knowledge.

[Raylan Givens]

Quote:

In a time when churches of every description are faced with Vanishing Male Syndrome, men are showing up at Eastern Orthodox churches in numbers that, if not numerically impressive, are proportionately intriguing. This may be the only church which attracts and holds men in numbers equal to women. As Leon Podles wrote in his 1999 book, “The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity,” “The Orthodox are the only Christians who write basso profundo church music, or need to.”

Rather than guess why this is, I emailed a hundred Orthodox men, most of whom joined the Church as adults. What do they think makes this church particularly attractive to men? Their responses, below, may spark some ideas for leaders in other churches, who are looking for ways to keep guys in the church.

http://russian-faith.com/explaining-orth...-men-n1318

[Raylan Givens]

Great video series by a Greek Orthodox priest in Georgia who converted from Pentecostalism.

[Raylan Givens]

"St. Gregory of Nyssa devotes a special treatise to the 'Life of Moses', in which the assent of Mount Sinai towards the darkness of incomprehensibility represents the way of contemplation, superior to Moses' first meeting with God when appeared to him in the burning bush. Then Moses saw God in light; now he enters the darkness, leaving behind him all that can be seen or know; there remains to him only the invisible and unknowable, but in this darkness is God."
-Vladimir Lossky

"It is the mystery of our salvation that is revealed to us by the Church, and not the secrets of the universe in general, which quite possibly, does not stand in need of salvation; this is the reason why the cosmology of the revelation is necessarily geocentric. It also enables us to see why Copernican cosmology, from a psychological or rather spiritual point of view, corresponds to a state of religious dispersion or off-centredness, a relaxation of the soteriological attitude, such as is found in the gnostics or the occult religions. The spirit of Faust, turning to the cosmos breaks through the constricting limits of the heavenly spheres to launch out in infinite space; where it becomes lost in the search for some synthetic understanding of the universe for its own understanding, external and limited to the domain of becoming, can only grasp the whole under the aspect of disintegration which corresponds to the condition of our nature since the fall.

"The Christian mystic, on the other hand, entering into himself, and enclosing himself in the 'inner chamber' of his heart, finds there, deeper even than sin, the beginning of an ascent in the course of which the universe appears more and more unified, more and more coherent, penetrated with spiritual forces and forming one whole within the hand of God."
-Vladimir Lossky

[Kid Twist]

Keep going Raylan, and if you fall, get back up

Of course, I lifted that from our tradition (-:

[Ranch Hand]

[quote] (02-22-2018 11:17 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

[quote='Super_Fire' pid='1740905' dateline='1519266762']
[quote='debeguiled' pid='1740634' dateline='1519232095']

Protestantism actually had a lot in common with the Orthodox, before the 1960's. But the lack of a central structure eventually has watered down their faith to the point where few protestants can agree on Biblical teachings anymore.

Personally, I prefer the protestants to the catholics. I think the Pope as an institution is an heresy against Christ. But it takes more than simply rejecting the Catholic church to form a good church, and that is why Protestantism is failing in modern times. It takes more than a negative doctrine to form a church.

I believe that had Protestants had known about the Orthodox church in the 15th-16th centuries, they would have simply converted instead of forming their own churches.[/quote]

Had the Pre-Luther Catholic church not done such a good job of consolidating biblical knowledge in the hands of Priests alone, the people (including Luther himself) may have re-converted to Orthodoxy.

I wonder how Luther's 95 Protests against the Catholic church reconcile with Orthodoxy.

[Kid Twist]

The short answer was that he went to far (too prove the point). Sola fide and scriptura are heresies, as were the attempts by him (but not even accepted by his followers) to "de-canonize" books like James, Hebrews, Jude, etc.

[Atticus]

Χριστός Ανέστη. Christ has risen!

A very Happy Easter to all Roosh readers, whoever and wherever you are. Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant. Jew, gentile, atheist.

[Ranch Hand]

Indeed he has risen. Happy Easter!

[Nacho]

OP check out a book called 'For the Life of the World: Sacraments and Orthodoxy' by Fr. Alexander Schmemann. You'll thank me later. Probably one the best books that blew my mind when I first got into Orthodoxy coming from a protestant background. I see you have already read the Mountain of Silence which is also one of my favorites.

For some uplifting listening enjoyment I also highly recommend 'Sacred Treasures: Choral Masterworks from Russia.' Includes various works from liturgical tradition; simply surreal, otherworldly, and captivating.

[Raylan Givens]

[Raylan Givens]

Great 2 part video series.