[Piankhi]

If you are going to believe in a god, I think it should the god of your people and ancestors.

[debeguiled]

(04-03-2018 05:39 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

The problem with saying your gods give you "absolute morality" is that your god never actually tells you in person, does he?

"His wisdom" always gets handed down by some corrupt, shady, self interested, altar boy fiddling intermediate.

Right on the coattails of several posts talking about prayer and seeking God directly, comes a tangent like this.

People who don't believe in God literally tune out any mention of prayer. They literally cannot see or hear it.

This is why there is no point in arguing about it.

You can mention it in passing, and they can pick up on it if they want, but if they don't want, then it doesn't exist.

Please don't take this personally Mr. RitW, because we all have our blindspots, and even as I write this, I can think of countless times I have been the one blocking out things I didn't want to deal with. Denial is purely and simply the human condition, and we all engage in it constantly.

I was merely pointing out that atheists do it when you talk about having a good old chat with the spirit in the sky.

[godfather dust]

(04-03-2018 10:05 AM)fenetre Wrote:  

(04-03-2018 12:35 AM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(04-02-2018 08:34 AM)godfather dust Wrote:  

Morality without God is bankrupt. An atheist can answer any moral question with "so what."

And what about his appeal to modernity for some kind of validation for his beliefs? It's one fallacy after another with this guy.

Look at the state of the world today. Secular Europe falling apart. Male/female relations in complete and utter ruins. Rampant drug abuse and suicide. Etc, etc, etc.

In the future, Dawkins' beliefs will register as a bizarre anecdote of a chaotic time. The arrogance of scientists to step outside their box and think their narrow competence transfers.

Dawkins et al are poster children for Western degenerates. They preach an easy, pleasure-oriented life, devoid of meaning. Don't we notice how he's always straw-manning religion too. His sleight of hand is telling for a supposed scientist.

How easy it is to denounce God when there's hot water in your taps, food in the fridge, some semblance of law and order on the streets. What a joke.

And how obvious it is that many lay atheists have never opened a religious book themselves. They turn to Dawkins and his bumpkins as cover for their sloth. Bunch of frauds.

Whatever criticisms atheists can lay at many of the fake Christian churches out there, that's one thing. But I notice how no criticism is ever directed at Christ's original church, the Christian Orthodox.

Revelations 2 https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.biblega...erface=amp

Explains the problem with theoretical/philosophical Christianity.

Revelation 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

[Alpha]

(04-04-2018 06:29 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  

If you are going to believe in a god, I think it should the god of your people and ancestors.

Restore Christianity to the Middle East!

[Cobra]

I've met god and we daygamed a bit. Also gave each other rep points. Nice guy!

user-42613.html

[YoungBlade]

(04-04-2018 03:29 PM)Alpha Wrote:  

(04-04-2018 06:29 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  

If you are going to believe in a god, I think it should the god of your people and ancestors.

Restore Christianity to the Middle East!

More like restore Marduk and Ishtar to the Middle East.

[Piankhi]

Believing that there is no after life has made this life more meaningful for me. And I wouldnt want some invisible entity watching my every move and knowing my thoughts. Like Hitchens said that is totalitarianism and celestial tyranny.

[Paracelsus]

(04-06-2018 06:16 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  

Believing that there is no after life has made this life more meaningful for me. And I wouldnt want some invisible entity watching my every move and knowing my thoughts. Like Hitchens said that is totalitarianism and celestial tyranny.

That invisible entity is called your conscience. If you've got a problem with it watching your every move and knowing your thoughts your issues go a lot deeper than atheism.

[debeguiled]

(04-06-2018 07:45 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

(04-06-2018 06:16 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  

Believing that there is no after life has made this life more meaningful for me. And I wouldnt want some invisible entity watching my every move and knowing my thoughts. Like Hitchens said that is totalitarianism and celestial tyranny.

That invisible entity is called your conscience. If you've got a problem with it watching your every move and knowing your thoughts your issues go a lot deeper than atheism.

Yeah, and this is what listening to Hitchens about Christianity looks like:

[RatInTheWoods]

(04-04-2018 10:32 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  

People who don't believe in God literally tune out any mention of prayer. They literally cannot see or hear it.

I know what it is, I've seen it, I've heard it, I understand what it is, I have analyzed it and spoken in many who do it.
I have even done it when I was a small, naive child afraid of things I didn't understand.

Likewise I have done the same to other people who have other similar experiences (meditation, enlightenment, revelations, shamanic rituals etc)

(04-04-2018 10:32 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  

Please don't take this personally Mr. RitW, because we all have our blindspots, and even as I write this, I can think of countless times I have been the one blocking out things I didn't want to deal with. Denial is purely and simply the human condition, and we all engage in it constantly.

My post was making the point (not related to prayer) that "absolute morals" are not actually handed down by deities, only his very human intermediaries.

Which I think destroys the claim that they are divine, and is evidence that they are the result of human processes exactly as described by Dawkins in the clip.

Thats not necessarily a good or bad thing, but it is a thing.

[RatInTheWoods]

(04-06-2018 07:45 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

That invisible entity is called your conscience.

And the "conscience" is?

Empathy? - We know that doing bad things to others is wrong because we can imagne how we would feel if it was done to us.

Fear? - Humans are inclined to revenge, which means doing bad things will result in others doing bad things back to us.

Reason? - Humans have a sense of what is a productive thing to do, and wasting time hurting others isn't productive when you could be helping yourself.

Reward? - Humans success is based on teamwork. If we are nice to each other and don't do bad things to each other we will be rewarded by others not doing bad things to us

[RatInTheWoods]

(04-04-2018 03:34 PM)Cobra Wrote:  

I've met god and we daygamed a bit. Also gave each other rep points. Nice guy!

I hung out with Thor the other day, and beat him at pool and in an arm wrestle!

[debeguiled]

@RatInTheWoods

Quote:

The problem with saying your gods give you "absolute morality" is that your god never actually tells you in person, does he?

"His wisdom" always gets handed down by some corrupt, shady, self interested, altar boy fiddling intermediate.

This was your point.

Corrupt, shady, self interested, etc.

You are clearly insinuating that these people, from prophets on down to local priests, are making up their own rules for their own benefit.

So I was putting prayer in the mix because that is where it belongs. Believers are not at the mercy of corrupt intermediaries, they also have their own direct line which will never be tried or understood by people who do not do it.

[Piankhi]

(04-06-2018 07:45 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

(04-06-2018 06:16 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  

Believing that there is no after life has made this life more meaningful for me. And I wouldnt want some invisible entity watching my every move and knowing my thoughts. Like Hitchens said that is totalitarianism and celestial tyranny.

That invisible entity is called your conscience. If you've got a problem with it watching your every move and knowing your thoughts your issues go a lot deeper than atheism.

If God wasnt invisible.

[Paracelsus]

(04-07-2018 08:00 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  

(04-06-2018 07:45 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

(04-06-2018 06:16 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  

Believing that there is no after life has made this life more meaningful for me. And I wouldnt want some invisible entity watching my every move and knowing my thoughts. Like Hitchens said that is totalitarianism and celestial tyranny.

That invisible entity is called your conscience. If you've got a problem with it watching your every move and knowing your thoughts your issues go a lot deeper than atheism.

If God wasnt invisible.

You already posted that earlier in the thread, bro. As I already said, and which RITW seemed not to actually get: if you're paranoid about the prospect of someone seeing and morally judging your decisions, you must have a real hard time living with yourself already.

[Paracelsus]

(04-06-2018 05:51 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

(04-06-2018 07:45 AM)Paracelsus Wrote:  

That invisible entity is called your conscience.

And the "conscience" is?

Empathy? - We know that doing bad things to others is wrong because we can imagne how we would feel if it was done to us.

Nope. Conscience can exist well outside empathy, and therefore is not synonymous with it since it is entirely possible to feel the weight of conscience over victimless crimes.

Quote:

Fear? - Humans are inclined to revenge, which means doing bad things will result in others doing bad things back to us.

Conscience often compels us to perform actions that will cause others to do bad things to ourselves, hence the old saying that character is who you are when no one is watching. Ergo, it isn't fear either.

Quote:

Reason? - Humans have a sense of what is a productive thing to do, and wasting time hurting others isn't productive when you could be helping yourself.

Conscience often stings most when you've already done something wrong, not to mention that it's typically expressed as a felt emotion, hence it is not synonymous with reason either.

Quote:

Reward? - Humans success is based on teamwork. If we are nice to each other and don't do bad things to each other we will be rewarded by others not doing bad things to us

Humans frequently betray one another and there is often considerable reward to the person who does so. Ergo, conscience is not an expression of reward either.

[Super_Fire]

(04-06-2018 06:16 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  

Believing that there is no after life has made this life more meaningful for me. And I wouldnt want some invisible entity watching my every move and knowing my thoughts. Like Hitchens said that is totalitarianism and celestial tyranny.

Hitchens had daddy issues. Like every classical narcissist, he preferred his own personal brand of tyranny over others.

[godfather dust]

(04-08-2018 09:14 PM)Super_Fire Wrote:  

(04-06-2018 06:16 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  

Believing that there is no after life has made this life more meaningful for me. And I wouldnt want some invisible entity watching my every move and knowing my thoughts. Like Hitchens said that is totalitarianism and celestial tyranny.

Hitchens had daddy issues. Like every classical narcissist, he preferred his own personal brand of tyranny over others.

Hitchens and Dawkins are such bitter, sarcastic and arrogant sophists I do not understand how people can look at them and say "I want to be like this man/follow his movement."

[debeguiled]

Hitchens was hilarious though. And he had some insane real talk moments on CNN and C-Span before anyone else was doing it. I heard him on CNN, out of the blue, in the nineties, say that if Elizabeth Taylor had more plastic surgery she'd have beard.

On tv he was one of the first to be rude to callers who deserved it. Sometimes he wouldn't even answer their questions, but say, listen to that, there are people who think like that.

When the war in Bosnia was raging it was almost impossible to get information in the West, and the only mainstream I ended up trusting was his columns in The Nation.

He had a lot of intellectual, political, and personal good will going into his later years when he became a Mother Theresa hater. I think he was riding on that for a while.

[godfather dust]

(04-09-2018 10:52 AM)debeguiled Wrote:  

Hitchens was hilarious though. And he had some insane real talk moments on CNN and C-Span before anyone else was doing it. I heard him on CNN, out of the blue, in the nineties, say that if Elizabeth Taylor had more plastic surgery she'd have beard.

On tv he was one of the first to be rude to callers who deserved it. Sometimes he wouldn't even answer their questions, but say, listen to that, there are people who think like that.

When the war in Bosnia was raging it was almost impossible to get information in the West, and the only mainstream I ended up trusting was his columns in The Nation.

He had a lot of intellectual, political, and personal good will going into his later years when he became a Mother Theresa hater. I think he was riding on that for a while.

You're probably a decade plus older than me, guess I missed the era when he brought a penny of value.

[debeguiled]

(04-09-2018 10:54 AM)godfather dust Wrote:  

You're probably a decade plus older than me, guess I missed the era when he brought a penny of value.

Correctamundo. Nothing but a distant memory.


Red pilling some feminists in '95.

[Scoundrel]

(04-03-2018 09:40 AM)godfather dust Wrote:  

(04-03-2018 12:35 AM)Scoundrel Wrote:  

(04-02-2018 08:34 AM)godfather dust Wrote:  

C: Murder is wrong.
Atheist: Why?
C: You're gonna leave a lot of people heartbroken
Atheist: So what?

What's the other side of this argument? Murder is wrong because God says it is?

Yes. Let's say murdering someone down the street will pay a years salary. As an atheist you could say, "well, it's probably kind of bad but on balance I can raise my kids better and I'll donate to charity."

Tell me why this is wrong (if God didn't say so.)

"Well society would break down!"
"So what. Gotta feed the family right?"

You see the results of Christianity becoming less popular in America every single day.

"The Bible tells me so" is not impressive to thinking people. An authoritarian view of ethics — which is exactly what you are advocating — renders moral insight, indeed moral understanding, impossible. The authority figure (or His representatives on earth) has decreed it, our task is simply to accept and to obey.

Of course, this only begs the question: Which moral authority happens to be right? The authoritarian has a similarly easy answer: The authority he follows!

This is not a view which leads to peace and freedom, but to statism and tribal warfare.

[Super_Fire]

(04-03-2018 06:13 AM)Piankhi Wrote:  

^Are you a staunch theist and there is nothing that could make you change your mind? Or are you open to the idea that there is no god?

The question goes to the atheists, is there something that would alter your opnion? I am open minded, if I saw or heard god himself I would believe.

Anything is possible. I was an agnostic in high school/university like all the other edgelords. Unless my life was going badly, then all of a sudden I believed in God.

Moving on, the Big Bang still cannot be explained. Nor can the fact that there is a rational design to all of nature and the Universe. I've already typed this here, but when asked to explain the Big Bang, scientists begin equivocating and shifting around, saying that's where their knowledge gets hazy. If asked why the Big Bang even occurred and what caused it to occur they've now copped out and said it wasn't even an event, it was simply a quality of the vacuum. And why is there a vacuum? It's my understanding that outer space is not, and perhaps has never been a perfect vacuum, and thus gaseous elements have existed in perpetuity. Why? Science can say how, but not why. It still can't answer why there is a mathematical symmetry in nature. That's purely a metaphysical topic for the time being. The agnostic answer would be, "Well, shit happens."

[ElFlaco]

I don't believe in God, but I do have a default respect for religious belief and for religious people. Many highly intelligent people have been believers. I envy believers because they seem to have more satisfaction in life.

It's preening atheists I can't tolerate.

[Fortis]

I'm largely skeptical of extreme atheism since it seems to be in league with dumbing us down, pushing relativism (Islam is the religion of peace), and other useful idiocy. Not to mention, many proponents of it are just as Homo and Pedo as the catholic crooks they love to point out.