Quote: (02-15-2018 03:05 AM)EndsExpect Wrote:  

Wait... you can believe in space aliens, but not God? You realize they are essentially the same thing right?

Nobody can prove or deny "a god" existence. However, a reasonable mind will conclude that the current religions (islam, christianity, buddhism, etc...) are bullshit.

God is in essence some kind of sentient being (alien) that can manipulation dimensions that we can perceive but not touch (example - time)

You'll need some scientific proof otherwise I could say the same about a big turd in the dimension C4485 of the multiverse.

A person doesn't just decide to have faith in God. You either feel the existence of God or you do not. If you cannot feel it, then you cannot understand.

Feelings are just electric pulses in your brain. There is no science fiction going on.

Quote: (03-07-2018 10:32 PM)Piankhi Wrote:  

I would like to refer to Christopher Hitchens. Even if gods exist, how do you know what they want you to eat, wear or have sex with? Who can claim to know the thoughts of god?

Because "God" is the rational order of the universe, and thus to "believe" in God is to believe that the universe is inherently rational, and that things are made to work a certain way. Humans instinctively know right from wrong; if we choose to ignore it we feel guilt and remorse, unless we're messed up. If parents fight, their child cries. If you steal from a child, they'll cry. If you threaten them, they'll get scared. If you tease them, they feel hurt. They know these things aren't right.

Atheism is the slippery slope to moral relativism, the pretext for their subversive and degenerate lifestyle that they crave because of their poor upbringing. Don't let yourself be fooled to follow them down their path.

Quote: (03-19-2018 11:24 PM)Disco_Volante Wrote:  

I'm at the point where I can believe in the concept of God and moral judgment, but at the same time I strongly don't believe that we re-incarnate in some other realm after death. The eternal life part seems like wishful thinking. Furthermore, Christianity demands we give thanks for eternal life even though most people deep down probably don't think that's plausible anyways.

Just a few things:

If eternal life is wishful thinking, why are we aggrieved or sad when someone dies?

You don't re-incarnate in any realm, you live as a renewed creation. Big difference.

If God is the source of life (and truth and beauty, etc) why wouldn't we be thankful or grateful for it? You'd have to deny the source of all "good things" to not be grateful. Which leads us to ...

We're sad because they're permanently gone. If the apostle really did see a resurrected jesus, then it goes to figure his 'faith' will be much stronger than all the people who just have to take his word for it.

I had a similar argument with that monk who wrote rok articles.
He said whether you're in heaven or he'll you'd be aware of it. Our soul can't be our conscious because say, dementia and alzheimers, your consciousness is lost anyways. So how is your 'soul' somehow aware of being 'renewed' as you put it. It's so vague I can't pretend I believe when I dont.

I wish there was a poll to see where the majority lies. But I take it the majority believes in god.

I have to refer to Hitchens again. The believers rarely leave atheists alone and are not happy unless we all convert.

Quote: (03-27-2018 11:11 PM)Piankhi Wrote:  

I have to refer to Hitchens again. The believers rarely leave atheists alone and are not happy unless we all convert.

Nonsense, and pure '80s hysteria.

Atheists, like most leftists, are far more vocal about their beliefs and letting everyone around them know about it (sound like vegetarians? How about gay marriage supporters or environmentalists?) As such they open themselves up to debate.

Of course, it's the goal of any Catholic/Christian to hope that all people will see the light, or that lapsed Catholic/Christians come back to the fold, which they usually do with age. Because, as stated, atheism is the gateway drug for the moral relativists. It's also just stupid. You can't prove God doesn't exist, so being an atheist is at best neckbeard edginess, and at worst more cultural decay.

Agnostic? I get that, I was there once.

Or, put another way:

Quote: (03-27-2018 10:10 PM)Disco_Volante Wrote:  

We're sad because they're permanently gone.

Why should that be? It provides us no evolutionary advantage to be that way, if you want to look at it "scientifcally" as most explanations in modernity go...

Same as pair-bonding, it's beneficial to care about our tribe / group / community it's very much a survival mechanism. Heavy investment in tight knit groups.

It would also be beneficial to forget about non-resources or wasted energy, if you are pure materialist. Do you at least see that the explanation materialists use are inititally, or eventually, problematic? Problematic in that they don't explain anything but in a retro-fitted way when the standard principle to explain everything doesn't fit.

Quote: (03-27-2018 12:23 AM)Super_Fire Wrote:  

Quote: (03-07-2018 10:32 PM)Piankhi Wrote:  

I would like to refer to Christopher Hitchens. Even if gods exist, how do you know what they want you to eat, wear or have sex with? Who can claim to know the thoughts of god?

Because "God" is the rational order of the universe, and thus to "believe" in God is to believe that the universe is inherently rational, and that things are made to work a certain way. Humans instinctively know right from wrong; if we choose to ignore it we feel guilt and remorse, unless we're messed up. If parents fight, their child cries. If you steal from a child, they'll cry. If you threaten them, they'll get scared. If you tease them, they feel hurt. They know these things aren't right.

Atheism is the slippery slope to moral relativism, the pretext for their subversive and degenerate lifestyle that they crave because of their poor upbringing. Don't let yourself be fooled to follow them down their path.

Morality without God is bankrupt. An atheist can answer any moral question with "so what." I've been there (before my relationship with God.)

Quick example (not from my own past thinking but a good illistration.)

C: Murder is wrong.
Atheist: Why?
C: You're gonna leave a lot of people heartbroken
Atheist: So what?

Anyone who reads this thread who believes in God abstractly, try talking to God (praying.) This has turned my life around.

Quote: (04-02-2018 08:34 AM)godfather dust Wrote:  

Morality without God is bankrupt. An atheist can answer any moral question with "so what." I've been there (before my relationship with God.)

Quick example (not from my own past thinking but a good illistration.)

C: Murder is wrong.
Atheist: Why?
C: You're gonna leave a lot of people heartbroken
Atheist: So what?

What's the other side of this argument? Murder is wrong because God says it is?

Quote: (04-02-2018 08:34 AM)godfather dust Wrote:  

Morality without God is bankrupt. An atheist can answer any moral question with "so what."

^^Dawkins is attacking a strawman. God does not solely equal the Old Testament or the Koran.

God, as I continue to type here to seemingly little reaction, is the rational order of the Universe. Logos. Which is what Dawkins is essentially talking about, but he won't go down that path and extend it to deviant behaviors or moral relativism because that's what the New Atheists are all about.

You have to cherry pick? Read the Gospel of St. John's first sentence in Greek briefly Dawkins and then meditate on that.

Let's do this dance again:

^Are you a staunch theist and there is nothing that could make you change your mind? Or are you open to the idea that there is no god?

The question goes to the atheists, is there something that would alter your opnion? I am open minded, if I saw or heard god himself I would believe.

Quote: (04-03-2018 12:35 AM)Scoundrel Wrote:  

Quote: (04-02-2018 08:34 AM)godfather dust Wrote:  

Morality without God is bankrupt. An atheist can answer any moral question with "so what." I've been there (before my relationship with God.)

Quick example (not from my own past thinking but a good illistration.)

C: Murder is wrong.
Atheist: Why?
C: You're gonna leave a lot of people heartbroken
Atheist: So what?

What's the other side of this argument? Murder is wrong because God says it is?

Yes. Let's say murdering someone down the street will pay a years salary. As an atheist you could say, "well, it's probably kind of bad but on balance I can raise my kids better and I'll donate to charity."

Tell me why this is wrong (if God didn't say so.)

"Well society would break down!"
"So what. Gotta feed the family right?"

You see the results of Christianity becoming less popular in America every single day.

Quote: (04-03-2018 12:35 AM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

Quote: (04-02-2018 08:34 AM)godfather dust Wrote:  

Morality without God is bankrupt. An atheist can answer any moral question with "so what."

And what about his appeal to modernity for some kind of validation for his beliefs? It's one fallacy after another with this guy.

Look at the state of the world today. Secular Europe falling apart. Male/female relations in complete and utter ruins. Rampant drug abuse and suicide. Etc, etc, etc.

In the future, Dawkins' beliefs will register as a bizarre anecdote of a chaotic time. The arrogance of scientists to step outside their box and think their narrow competence transfers.

Dawkins et al are poster children for Western degenerates. They preach an easy, pleasure-oriented life, devoid of meaning. Don't we notice how he's always straw-manning religion too. His sleight of hand is telling for a supposed scientist.

How easy it is to denounce God when there's hot water in your taps, food in the fridge, some semblance of law and order on the streets. What a joke.

And how obvious it is that many lay atheists have never opened a religious book themselves. They turn to Dawkins and his bumpkins as cover for their sloth. Bunch of frauds.

Whatever criticisms atheists can lay at many of the fake Christian churches out there, that's one thing. But I notice how no criticism is ever directed at Christ's original church, the Christian Orthodox.

Quote: (04-02-2018 07:20 PM)godfather dust Wrote:  

Anyone who reads this thread who believes in God abstractly, try talking to God (praying.) This has turned my life around.

You can read the Bible all you want, and try to be a good person, but if you don't have an experience of God as a real person, it doesn't even matter if you are Jordan Peterson, you will be missing much of the whole point.

Many atheists can talk circles around believers, but when you make a suggestion like this, they get all quiet, because this is the ultimate test, and they aren't willing to do it because they are scared something might happen that they don't want to deal with.

They will tell you that the reason they don't do this is that it is silly, or that people who do this are just hearing their own voice and calling it god, or state tossing terms like confirmation bias around.

I had a good friend, Jewish dude, and we talked about religion for a couple hours and got nowhere till I finally said, well, have you ever just taken a quiet moment alone to ask God, in your mind, if he was really there, and if he is to show you?

He looked at me for a long moment, smiled, and said, maybe I will someday.

Maybe. Some day.

This is the ultimate litmus test, and yet there are millions out there who will never try this, and talk all around it, over it, and under it.

You could even lose friends by suggesting this.

A real conversation stopper.

It's actually not even fair to single out atheists on this one. A lot of believers treat religion, and godfather dust has pointed out, as one more abstraction to debate on the net.

All meaningless if you aren't willing to get your hands dirty and get personal.

The problem with saying your gods give you "absolute morality" is that your god never actually tells you in person, does he?

"His wisdom" always gets handed down by some corrupt, shady, self interested, altar boy fiddling intermediate.

Most religious morality (that has served us well in history) is really the collective wisdom, experience and debate from wise men that Dawkins is talking about.

Thats what he is saying, religious moral authority doesn't come from gods, it comes from men, society and collective wisdom.

How has atheism improved your life?

I used to be very religious and believe in God even though I grew up with atheist parents and siblings. When my grand parents died or when my pets died I noticed that I tooked it way harder than they did. They would be back to normal just a few weeks after they passed away while I became depressed and just prayed and stuff.

During the same time in my teenage years I was being bullied and believing in God helped me through that tough time and gave me sort of superpowers because I felt I had some power behind me.

But then I started to read the Bible and realized the stories were just too weird and unbelievable and filled with plenty of moral contradictions. And when I wanted to talk with other Christians they kind of wanted to ignore the hard questions which I sensed was because they didn't want to question the existence of God in the same way I had ignored it in the past.

Sometimes when I prayed in my teenage years I would get goosebumps but eventually, I realized that was just probably myself getting into a more meditative state (and not the experience of some God).

Eventually, close to my twenties, I arrived at the conclusion that there was no God. Stefan Molyneux has some great arguments as to why that I also listened to.

And then I went into a sort of no man's land in terms of morality. What would I do now? Did morality even exist? Could I just fuck as many bitches and jerk off without feeling guilty now because there is no God? Even okay to murder someone?
So I became kind of lost in terms of morality because I thought the only thing that had prevented me from doing immoral stuff in the past was the fear of not being liked by God.

Then I realized that I didn't have to be a degenerate just because there wasn't a God, but actually because of other reasons.


***

That was several years ago. Nowadays I have to admit I feel a bit less passionate about life without believing in a God, I took everything so serious back then and I can see how people took advantage of me because I cared more about morality than they did (some still do to a certain degree).

Lately, I've been wondering a lot about the creation of the universe and stuff though and how it came about in the first place, the very first atoms - how the fuck were they created?
And I've been thinking a lot about the probability of life - how fucking insane if it now was some small particles back in the day that eventually led to the big bang that created a sun that was in perfect distance from this planet that just happened to have the right conditions for the potential of life. And the probability of particles being put together in the right manner to create bacterias to eventually form intelligent life that can create some machines we use in order to debate with each other of how all this ever came about with some electromagnetic waves that no one is even fully sure of how it all works.

So in just a few months I will travel to Israel and visit some historic christian sites and try to give God another last go, but I doubt that I will.

Couldn't fucking sleep tonight so sorry about the ramble.

Quote: (04-03-2018 09:46 PM)dosequis Wrote:  

I used to be very religious and believe in God even though I grew up with atheist parents and siblings. When my grand parents died or when my pets died I noticed that I tooked it way harder than they did. They would be back to normal just a few weeks after they passed away while I became depressed and just prayed and stuff.

...

So in just a few months I will travel to Israel and visit some historic christian sites and try to give God another last go, but I doubt that I will.

Couldn't fucking sleep tonight so sorry about the ramble.

I think a difficult problem to overcome is our mindset. We've been conditioned to expect solutions to every problem, pre-packaged and to be plugged in.

Developing a relationship with God is first about submitting. Of course, this requires humility, something not exactly plentiful on this forum, or the world in general.

The point above about actually talking to God is telling. The reason why so many won't do it is because it would be an admission of their pride, and unwillingness to recognise God as their superior.

These days we're taught to worship our minds, our intellects, our thoughts and ideas. We are to see ourselves as gods of our own. In essence this is satanic.

You're never going to find to God by visiting some place. You should first admit to Him that you're lost, accept that you need His help, and have the patience to allow Him to come to you.

It sounds like you're stuck in the cesspool of nihilism. You sound despondent.

The Bible is a complex, complicated collection of works. I wouldn't interpret it literally. No credible authority recommends that (I'm aware of the Sola Scriptura approach of the Protestants but I don't agree with their approach). The Bible should be read in the context of the interpretation of theological tradition.

But remember that you can't blame God for not doing what you need to do in your life. God helps those who help themselves. It sounds like you're struggling in general with some things at the moment. Maybe you need to accept that you can't take life on all by yourself?

I mean, I've no doubt that you can, but you could be lacking the meaning that you need to be able to bear your burden.

Quote: (04-03-2018 05:39 PM)RatInTheWoods Wrote:  

The problem with saying your gods give you "absolute morality" is that your god never actually tells you in person, does he?

"His wisdom" always gets handed down by some corrupt, shady, self interested, altar boy fiddling intermediate.

Most religious morality (that has served us well in history) is really the collective wisdom, experience and debate from wise men that Dawkins is talking about.

Thats what he is saying, religious moral authority doesn't come from gods, it comes from men, society and collective wisdom.

You think Dawkins and his chums are wise? They push the bullshit ideology that lead us all to this forum. You sound like that dumb broad on the recent talk with Jordan Peterson and William Lane Craig.

Quote: (04-02-2018 07:20 PM)godfather dust Wrote:  

Anyone who reads this thread who believes in God abstractly, try talking to God (praying.) This has turned my life around.

Praying has helped me a lot too.
The pineal gland calcification is so common in the West that it could be one of reasons why many people have lost their connection to spirituality and have turned over to mindless SJWism as a religion.