[Hannibal]

I would eat at a slight to moderate surplus. You might put on some fat, but you definitely want to build the muscle that the routine is targeting (that's the whole point of why you're doing it).

Otherwise you won't be doing a whole lot.

[ZeZay]

(02-24-2016 03:23 PM)Hannibal Wrote:  

I would eat at a slight to moderate surplus. You might put on some fat, but you definitely want to build the muscle that the routine is targeting (that's the whole point of why you're doing it).

Otherwise you won't be doing a whole lot.

I don't really know what the routine is for, they have a gym there at the physio as well so he looks at my exercises. Whenever I do the exercise I am supposed to do it really slow and controlled, like really slow, 5 second negatives. On low weight. I have to make sure I squeeze my shoulderblades all the time too. I have to watch form very closely, he also said it doesn't matter if I don't move up in weight or reps in the routine. He said it's to take pressure off of my chest area and create more pressure and tension in my back so that my shoulders roll backwards more.

[GlobalMan]

Even though you are not "skinnyfat" per se, in my opinion you should consider following this plan, I think it would work well for your situation.

This guy also had little to no results from heavy lifting, same as you, and also narrow shoulders.

http://skinnyfattransformation.com/bodyw...kinny-fat/




His thoughts on how heavy weights aren't a great idea for a beginner. I found this true in my own experience:

http://skinnyfattransformation.com/why-y...-beginner/

[ZeZay]

(02-24-2016 04:09 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  

Even though you are not "skinnyfat" per se, in my opinion you should consider following this plan, I think it would work well for your situation.

This guy also had little to no results from heavy lifting, same as you, and also narrow shoulders.

http://skinnyfattransformation.com/bodyw...kinny-fat/

Yes, that's what other people have suggested as well. Basic bodyweight exercises, keeping it simple. Can't do them right now because of shoulder injury but definitely something for the future.

[Hannibal]

(02-24-2016 03:58 PM)ZeZay Wrote:  

(02-24-2016 03:23 PM)Hannibal Wrote:  

I would eat at a slight to moderate surplus. You might put on some fat, but you definitely want to build the muscle that the routine is targeting (that's the whole point of why you're doing it).

Otherwise you won't be doing a whole lot.

I don't really know what the routine is for, they have a gym there at the physio as well so he looks at my exercises. Whenever I do the exercise I am supposed to do it really slow and controlled, like really slow, 5 second negatives. On low weight. I have to make sure I squeeze my shoulderblades all the time too. I have to watch form very closely, he also said it doesn't matter if I don't move up in weight or reps in the routine. He said it's to take pressure off of my chest area and create more pressure and tension in my back so that my shoulders roll backwards more.

Quote:

Close grip seated rows 3x15
Straight bar medium grip seated rows 3x15
Wide grip seated rows 3x15
Reverse flyes 3x15
Mid-height cable chest flyes 3x15

One thing I would add would be to do front chest pulls with a resistance band for at least 15 reps if not 20+. Ask your physio if that would be a good idea (in my opinion, supplementary resistance band work is a great idea).

The problem with programs like Stronglifts and starting strength is that you're doing 2 presses to 1 pull, which leads to shoulder imbalances over time. I don't count the deadlift as a pull in the same way as a barbell row.

The physio's program has a whole lot of pulls to fix that problem. Sets of 15 reps are good for adding mass to the upper body. You're basically doing a shitload of pulling volume for bodybuilding rep ranges to undo the imbalance from the pressing. Should work great, given some time.

General rule of thumb for the future, for every press you do you want to do at least 1 (upper body) pull. It doesn't hurt to do more, either. Ask your physio if you don't believe me.

For pulls, you can pick
barbell, machine, or dumbbell rows
cleans
chinups or pullups
shrugs

Accessory stuff
Reverse flies, light dumbbell rows, curls, anything from the first list but lighter

(02-24-2016 04:09 PM)GlobalMan Wrote:  

Even though you are not "skinnyfat" per se, in my opinion you should consider following this plan, I think it would work well for your situation.

This guy also had little to no results from heavy lifting, same as you, and also narrow shoulders.

http://skinnyfattransformation.com/bodyw...kinny-fat/




His thoughts on how heavy weights aren't a great idea for a beginner. I found this true in my own experience:

http://skinnyfattransformation.com/why-y...-beginner/

I don't want to get too critical, but the article is disingenuous at best.

Starting strength and stronglifts are for beginners and they are not bodybuilding programs. They are strength building programs designed to take what muscle you already have, add a bit to it and bring the whole base up to peak strength in a hurry. They are also there to get you focused on dialing in your technique for big, compound lifts that matter.

If you want to see the results of a lifting program where you start out with low weight and high reps, go over to the dragondoor forum and see the Convict Conditioning transformation threads. Some of the guys are still doing knee pushups and they've been at it for two years.

He did starting strength for a year and this was what he got.



And he claims he didn't make any gains at all in his first two years of training?

After pissing and moaning about his physique, he then applies all that barbell strength he got to a calisthenics program where he does chins and dips in the 12-15 rep range and gains mass.



Some guys can build mass from lower reps. Most can't. It's dishonest to say that he "didn't get anywhere" in his first few years of training. He build a great base of strength which carried over well to a mass building program.

[ZeZay]

(02-24-2016 05:24 PM)Hannibal Wrote:  

One thing I would add would be to do front chest pulls with a resistance band for at least 15 reps if not 20+. Ask your physio if that would be a good idea (in my opinion, supplementary resistance band work is a great idea).
General rule of thumb for the future, for every press you do you want to do at least 1 (upper body) pull. It doesn't hurt to do more, either. Ask your physio if you don't believe me.

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll ask him next time. I don't have a resistance band though and neither does my gym, can I get them somewhere for cheap or something?

I know this rule, which is why I find it strange I'm having shoulder problems. My physio also told me that I shouldn't have pushed more than I have pulled and then I told him I was pulling more than pushing. When I was doing starting strength I always added face pulls, with high reps to make sure I pull more. and I've never stopped doing face pulls until now where I'm doing the physio routine. However face pulls have always felt kind of uncomfortable because they were performed around shoulder level which is where part of the problem is, reaching overhead/over shoulder starts to hurt quick.

[Hannibal]

Strange. I wouldn't do anything that hurts (obviously), but it's weird that facepulls not only didn't prevent your problem, but may have made it worse. My only guess would be that the facepulls only worked the rear delts, or maybe you weren't doing them correctly and they irritated your rotor cuffs. You're supposed to pull to your ears.


About the bands:
It depends on how far you want to go with it.

If you just want it for rehab purposes, I'd just get a lifeline USA chest expander with a lighter weight (30 lbs would probably work). It would be an easy, one time purchase and if you want to go up in weight you'd just buy a heavier set of bands (~$15).

You can get them for about $25 off the internet.

If you want something you'll use forever because you love working out with bands, then get Sierra's The Hook chest expander and buy bands for it. If you want to learn how to make bands for it, send me a PM and I'll show you how (I have the Hook and I use it at my apartment and when I'm traveling). Homemade bands are about half as expensive as the ones bought off the website.

Front chest pull is not a replacement for regular pulls, but they're a great supplementary exercise to teach you proper scapula retraction.

[Hades]

^^ Shoulder pain despite doing an assload of pulls?

How does this mobility drill treat you? :10 seconds in.

I'm not sure if your problem is related to strength or mobility (possibly some of both).

It would be wise to hit up the gymnastic bodies forum for shoulder 'prehab' and 'rehab' threads.

This video is also pretty solid---
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9aUQNwg5Ys

[rudebwoy]

That bodyweight exercise is what I was doing alot last year, until my shoulders got tight.

[redbeard]

Dropping in to say that in Elliott Hulse's new book, KING, Chris Bernard (who wrote the exercise section) suggests doing two pulls for every push.

That is all. Continue the age old bodyweight vs. barbell discussion.

[Thrill Jackson]

Your genetics has fucked you my friend, but continue to improve and you should be fine

[Hannibal]

(02-24-2016 08:58 PM)redbeard Wrote:  

Dropping in to say that in Elliott Hulse's new book, KING, Chris Bernard (who wrote the exercise section) suggests doing two pulls for every push.

That is all. Continue the age old bodyweight vs. barbell discussion.

My point was that the rep ranges the guy was using had more to do with his results than any particular type of training.

[ZeZay]

(02-24-2016 06:03 PM)Hannibal Wrote:  

Strange. I wouldn't do anything that hurts (obviously), but it's weird that facepulls not only didn't prevent your problem, but may have made it worse. My only guess would be that the facepulls only worked the rear delts, or maybe you weren't doing them correctly and they irritated your rotor cuffs. You're supposed to pull to your ears.


About the bands:
It depends on how far you want to go with it.

If you just want it for rehab purposes, I'd just get a lifeline USA chest expander with a lighter weight (30 lbs would probably work). It would be an easy, one time purchase and if you want to go up in weight you'd just buy a heavier set of bands (~$15).

You can get them for about $25 off the internet.

If you want something you'll use forever because you love working out with bands, then get Sierra's The Hook chest expander and buy bands for it. If you want to learn how to make bands for it, send me a PM and I'll show you how (I have the Hook and I use it at my apartment and when I'm traveling). Homemade bands are about half as expensive as the ones bought off the website.

Front chest pull is not a replacement for regular pulls, but they're a great supplementary exercise to teach you proper scapula retraction.

I think my form was right, I did it like this video:

I looked at the resistance bands and worldwide shipping (to the Netherlands) is pretty expensive for those. We have a lot of types of resistance bands locally as well but I'm not sure about the quality of them so I guess I'll ask my physiotherapist next week.

[ZeZay]

(02-24-2016 06:05 PM)Hades Wrote:  

^^ Shoulder pain despite doing an assload of pulls?

How does this mobility drill treat you? :10 seconds in.

I'm not sure if your problem is related to strength or mobility (possibly some of both).

It would be wise to hit up the gymnastic bodies forum for shoulder 'prehab' and 'rehab' threads.

This video is also pretty solid---
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9aUQNwg5Ys

I did this to warm up for squatting and things like that, should I be doing more of it?

Edit: I've emailed all the 6 pools here in this area to see if I can get something sorted out. If not, I think I can afford to go once a week for like 3 hours, is this enough?
And what should I eat for now? I guess cutting is out of the question because of recovery or not?

[Rush87]

Have you got your weights wrong? You have written that you started at 60kg and are now 87kg. That is a tremendous amount of weight to gain. By looking at your pictures I would say that must be a typo and you are actually 67kg?

[ZeZay]

Not a typo, Im 6'1 and my legs have gained a substantial amount of weight. I weighed occasionally and the weight scale would always show 2 kg more than the previous time every so often.

[Rush87]

(02-25-2016 07:14 AM)ZeZay Wrote:  

Not a typo, Im 6'1 and my legs have gained a substantial amount of weight. I weighed occasionally and the weight scale would always show 2 kg more than the previous time every so often.

27kg in one year is huge. Yes you're young, but to bulk that fast means you were gaining .5 of a kilogram per week.

The reality is that those sort of numbers are incredible. That much mass is essentially what you would expect from PED's.

Obviously in your case some of that is fat BUT… Judging by your before and afters, it isn't considerably more than you would expect with that much mass gain [In fact, your fat gain seems relatively minimal and your strength gain is decent].

The pictures themselves are a little deceptive because you don't look like an 87kg guy [Perhaps you have a large frame] - In any case though…
I don't think you're doing anything wrong [Outside being a little too impatient]. 99% of people wouldn't come close to achieving what you have in one year [If it's legit]. You simply need to start cutting.

[glugger]

Take into account he went from 16 to 17 years old, so he possibly had a huge growth spurt that affected his weight considerably.

[Rush87]

(02-25-2016 08:52 AM)glugger Wrote:  

Take into account he went from 16 to 17 years old, so he possibly had a huge growth spurt that affected his weight considerably.

That's one hell of a growth spurt. 45% increase in body weight.

That aside:

- 237% increase in Deadlift.
- 400% increase in Bench.
- 700% increase in Squat.

I think this is more a case of unrealistic expectation and impatience. These are awesome results in one year.

[rudebwoy]

I didn't realize you were so young, take your time and let your body heal.

Look into the swimming as a way to heal your shoulder and get you in shape at the same time.

I hurt my shoulder awhile ago and it will never be 100%, I don't do shoulder exercises except a few lateral side raises. Shoulder press is out of the question.

The fact that you are determined to train, says a lot about you.

At 17, I thought the gym was a waste of time.

[ZeZay]

(02-25-2016 10:31 AM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

I didn't realize you were so young, take your time and let your body heal.

Look into the swimming as a way to heal your shoulder and get you in shape at the same time.

I hurt my shoulder awhile ago and it will never be 100%, I don't do shoulder exercises except a few lateral side raises. Shoulder press is out of the question.

The fact that you are determined to train, says a lot about you.

At 17, I thought the gym was a waste of time.

Thanks for the advice for the swimming. I've mailed a few pools and right now it seems like I can get something sorted out so I can go twice a week which is really cool, I wouldn't have thought about swimming at all if you and Moma didn't mention it but after looking around it seems to be really healthy for the joints, as well as good for cardiovascular health and getting that athletic body, if I enjoy it it will be something I'll be doing in the future as well.

Now I'm still confused as to what I should eat, should I just eat at maintenance and let my body heal? Or a slight surplus like Hannibal suggests? I really don't want to get any more fat though that's why I'm asking.

[rudebwoy]

^Moma has been doing a lot of it lately, I want to get back into the pool myself. Swimmers have great shoulders and good physiques.

The doctor said I have arthritis in my knees, I have no pain but my knees click. He said I shouldn't be doing leg presses, squats or lunges. I will still do presses, the other routines I have given up on.
So let that be a lesson to ALL those guys who talk about doing extremely heavy weight.

As for food, eat what you can. As you know stay away from junk food and foods high in sugar. At your age you should be able to burn off a lot of food.

[Hannibal]

(02-25-2016 10:47 AM)ZeZay Wrote:  

Now I'm still confused as to what I should eat, should I just eat at maintenance and let my body heal? Or a slight surplus like Hannibal suggests? I really don't want to get any more fat though that's why I'm asking.

Don't eat garbage junk food, have plenty of vegetables, get lots of sleep and let your body heal itself. 3 square meals a day is fine. Focus on your exercises and recovery and not so much on dieting to get lean right now.

You're only 16 so you have plenty of time to get big and lean, just let your body heal. Once you're done with the program to fix your shoulder you can get back to wrecking shit in the gym. No rush, get it done right the first time and you'll be a lot further ahead in the long run.

[Moma]

My Dutch bro, you can't go wrong with swimming. Even human buffalo weighing 250kg will benefit as the water removes the damage that gravity does to heavy people (by removing gravity from the equation and making you weightless). I know Europe is expensive for basic amenities like swimming so if you cannot get a discount, once a week for three hours is fine. Swimming is really a best kept secret and you will gain a lot of unspoken benefits that the meathead crew (myself included) often don't mention.

Food wise, as Rude says, keep it clean. Learn to cook and try and carry clean meals with you. I bought a Nutribullet one year ago and I just go to the supermarket, buy fresh veg (go for green stuff!), wash it at home and toss it in my bullet (a form of blender). I blend it all up, maybe toss an apple, orange, berries in there with clean water and drink it through the day. You can thicken it with a handful of nuts to give you bulk to the drink. Combine that with three-five good clean meals a day (freshly grilled fish, with yam), oats (clean not the sugared crap) and goat, turkey or chicken for dinner. If you follow that for three weeks and monitor, you will lose unwanted fat..guaranteed! When you feel hungry, blend more

[ZeZay]

Thanks everyone again. I'm glad I found this forum, everyone is really helpful. It's like the older brothers or uncles that I've never had.