[ZeZay]

Okay so I went to the gym today again to try the bodyweight routine, it didn't go so well. I started with dips but that was unmanageable for my shoulders, I had a buddy help me by holding my legs and I also tried negatives. Both were unbearable so I stopped quickly.

Then I did pullups, I tried wide grip, neutral grip and chins. Then I remembered why I stopped doing vertical pulling like pullups and lat pulldowns. The pull part is fine but on the negative part I feel strain on my shoulders. Now the assisted pullup machine here is gone so I can really only do negatives (not strong enough yet for pullups). I focus on keeping my whole body tight on the way down, chest up, elbows in etc however my shoulders feel very unbalanced in this position.

There is obviously something wrong with my shoulders.
I guess I should keep trying with doctors and stuff. There doesn't seem to be an orthopedist here so I'm gonna try a different physiotherapist again, will have an appointment next monday.

[Truth Teller]

Where does it hurt in your shoulders?

[rudebwoy]

^^ Dips are a very hard exercise that takes toll on your joints, shoulders especially.

I am sorry but the person that told you to do them, does not know what they are talking about.

Fix your shoulder, which will mostly likely mean you cannot train for a few weeks or months.

[eatthishomie]

yeah don't do dips and don't do OHP either. OHP is even worse than bench for someone with shoulder issues. floor presses and pushup variations are going to be your chest-builders if your shoulder issues are anything like mine, and raises and landmine presses your shoulder builders.

[Truth Teller]

(01-11-2016 07:15 PM)eatthishomie Wrote:  

yeah don't do dips and don't do OHP either. OHP is even worse than bench for someone with shoulder issues. floor presses and pushup variations are going to be your chest-builders if your shoulder issues are anything like mine, and raises and landmine presses your shoulder builders.

Interesting, I have shoulder issues and never have had an issue with OHP. Bench press, absolutely. Raises hurt too. OHP doesn't.

[Moma]

(01-11-2016 06:59 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

^^ Dips are a very hard exercise that takes toll on your joints, shoulders especially.

I am sorry but the person that told you to do them, does not know what they are talking about.

Fix your shoulder, which will mostly likely mean you cannot train for a few weeks or months.

Rudebwoy is right. Don't rush it, bro, you have years left to enjoy a good body. Heal so you can have a long career. I told you to try swimming for aqua therapy..I know Europe is stingy with the free facilities but ask around and see if you can find a pool somewhere in Holland where you can start to move around in water if you simply must exercise.

[thoughtgypsy]

<this is not medical advice>

If you can't do simple things like >5 push ups or pull ups, then something is seriously wrong. You need to stop the exercises that cause pain and see a doctor that specializes in sports medicine before you start loading up weight or doing joint intensive exercises. Otherwise you're gonna fuck something up and make negative progress.

The shoulder is relatively complex and an issue with it could be a whole number of things. For a while I thought I had rotator cuff issues. I saw a good physical therapist and they said that actually my shoulder is being pulled forward by an overdeveloped anterior delt/chest/upper traps, and I needed to develop my mid and lower traps.

Try holding out your arm out straight so it's parallel with the ground, make a thumbs up with your fist. It should look like you're hitch hiking. Now rotate your arm so the thumb is pointing down. With your other hand, try to push down on your arm hard while you try to hold that position. If it hurts, you may have compromised shoulder mobility.

If that's the case, what worked for me was doing scapula stabilization exercises (look it up), and developing my rear delts, mid and lower traps to pull back my shoulders. I no longer have shoulder issues and I've been able to load up on weight again. But you really should be seeking a professional orthopedist, physical therapist, or similar.

Once you've solved that, I would try doing some simple body weight exercises like push ups and chin ups (pull ups irritate my shoulder, chin ups don't) until you can do 10-15 without too much trouble. Do them slowly, especially the negatives, and really concentrate on your form. Even experienced lifters will feel 20 push ups if they do them slow enough.

Take a good look in the mirror and try to get a feel for where your weaknesses are. Concentrate your efforts on building up a balanced physique. If you don't address your weak points, it can hold back your progress and cause injuries down the line. I still do dumbbell work for this.

Once you're doing alright with the body weight, have no injuries, and you've developed the weak point muscles more, you can start throwing in the heavy compound lifts. Progress should move along nicely and you can start adding weight and work volume.

Don't get too cocky. I've been lifting almost 10 years and have been pretty conservative to avoid injury. Mea culpa, I skipped a warm up set when going heavy on a deadlift and I strained my back. Now I have to sit out the gym for a while and it's cost me that much more progress.

______________

Your diet looks mostly fine. It's good that you're eating mostly real food. If I could give you one more thing to remember, it's not to mix high fat and high carbohydrate meals. So you might want to skip that bread + cheese or switch them with something else.

Carb + Fat = Bad (Bread + cheese)
Carb + Protein = OK (Turkey + rice)
Fat + Protein = OK (Steak)

The reason is, your body stores fat once your blood sugar is elevated and the glucose capacity in your liver and muscles are at capacity. Carbohydrates generally raise blood sugar rapidly, and fat is calorically dense, meaning more fat deposition will take place. This applies mostly to carbs like bread, pasta, rice. High fiber carbohydrates like vegetables are fine. This is an oversimplification but should work for the most part. Also avoid meals with high glycemic load. For a list see:
http://www.health.harvard.edu/healthy-ea..._100_foods

[nogamenick]

No reason to change his goals. Aim high and see how far you can get is my idea. Keep in mind he's pretty much new to lifting. Starting out we all have high hopes and then change our ideas once we get to know our body, genetics, potential and we become aware of the fact that to get physiques like that you will probably need steroids.

I have to say you guys have given some incredible advice. I've been speaking to him privately (We're from the same town so maybe at some point we can get a workout in together and I can check his form). Definitely agree what has been said about resting and taking the time to sort out the injury before it gets worse. Rest by choice is always better than ending up hurt and not having a choice. Also agree on the workout volume. He's made some changes and I'm confident he'll see results in no time.

The advice some of you have made on dealing with the injury is amazing. I've seen some real broscience here before but this time there's legitimate advice. Good to see.

[ZeZay]

(01-11-2016 06:40 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

Where does it hurt in your shoulders?

It's either the back of the shoulders, when doing vertical pulling (not the lats), of the front of the shoulders when doing pressing, also the day later I always have some small bicep strain as well that connects to the shoulders.

[ZeZay]

(01-11-2016 07:21 PM)Moma Wrote:  

(01-11-2016 06:59 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

^^ Dips are a very hard exercise that takes toll on your joints, shoulders especially.

I am sorry but the person that told you to do them, does not know what they are talking about.

Fix your shoulder, which will mostly likely mean you cannot train for a few weeks or months.

Rudebwoy is right. Don't rush it, bro, you have years left to enjoy a good body. Heal so you can have a long career. I told you to try swimming for aqua therapy..I know Europe is stingy with the free facilities but ask around and see if you can find a pool somewhere in Holland where you can start to move around in water if you simply must exercise.

Yeah I'm gonna see if I can get something sorted out with a pool here nearby, they will probably charge quite some money though, which I don't have yet. If i can't get something sorted out going 3x a week to the pool will cost 4x as much as my gym membership..

[ZeZay]

I'll rest my shoulders for a few weeks, if even the basic bodyweight exercises put a lot of strain on them I really need to find a good physiotherapist for once. Thanks everyone for the great advice, otherwise I wouldve probably continued and hurt myself pretty bad.

[realologist]

I suggest while you rest your shoulder to do some lower body, body weight exercises and core exercises. I would start with some squats and sprints. I would say planks but your shoulder may not be able to take it so I would do V crunches.

This way you still get some work in on the rest of your body.

[Moma]

(01-12-2016 03:44 AM)ZeZay Wrote:  

(01-11-2016 07:21 PM)Moma Wrote:  

(01-11-2016 06:59 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

^^ Dips are a very hard exercise that takes toll on your joints, shoulders especially.

I am sorry but the person that told you to do them, does not know what they are talking about.

Fix your shoulder, which will mostly likely mean you cannot train for a few weeks or months.

Rudebwoy is right. Don't rush it, bro, you have years left to enjoy a good body. Heal so you can have a long career. I told you to try swimming for aqua therapy..I know Europe is stingy with the free facilities but ask around and see if you can find a pool somewhere in Holland where you can start to move around in water if you simply must exercise.

Yeah I'm gonna see if I can get something sorted out with a pool here nearby, they will probably charge quite some money though, which I don't have yet. If i can't get something sorted out going 3x a week to the pool will cost 4x as much as my gym membership..

Ok, if it costs that much then don't waste your money on swimming at this time..it's just cheap here in North America but I forgot how Europe loves to gorge its citizens for every penny they can get. Make it a priority to go and see someone licensed to tell you about your shoulder. I'm from Europe originally and the GP's there knew fcuk all about physical ailments. They were just receptionists to the medical world. As most people here said, please go and see a knowledgeable physiotherapist. Ask around, I don't know what part of Holland you live and whether there are athletes there but ask some of the older guys around about your shoulder and see what their recommendations are.

[thoughtgypsy]

ZeZay, some things to look for in a good physical therapist. It will not be simply just "My shoulder hurts" 'Oh you have ____". They should be asking you where it hurts, what exercises cause pain. Then they should ask you to put your hands and arms in certain position, and press and manipulate them while you inform them if anything hurts. They will be checking the mobility of your joints, pressing on spots to check for muscle tightness and pain.

It will be much more than just a Q & A session you would typically see in your typical doctor visit. By the end of it, they should be able to tell you exactly what the issue is, and what to do about it. Most likely it will be exercises to correct compromised mobility issues, and perhaps myofascial release.

Are you near any colleges that offer physical therapy courses? If so, you might be able to get a diagnosis for free. You could offer to come in and provide a "real life learning opportunity for them to evaluate what they've learned". Or if they balk, you could (hypothetically, of course) find a way to contact one of the graduate students and offer to pay them under the table for them to do the same thing.

[Sonoma]

This is why my coach barely had us touch weights in 3 years of varsity baseball.

Hope you heal up okay

[britchard]

I don't have the most healthy shoulders in the world, but they never really get worse than an ache or twinge during a workout. If it is causing you so much pain that you can't even do push ups, you clearly have a problem.

I haven't read the whole thread, but I assume that someone else has already mentioned doing shoulder mobility exercises as a good starting point. Also, if certain exercises hurt your shoulders, don't do them at all!

I'm not entirely sure how the Dutch health system works, however I presume it's more of the European model. You need to either get referred to a specialist in the health service, or see a private physiotherapist.

[ZeZay]

(01-12-2016 07:49 AM)thoughtgypsy Wrote:  

ZeZay, some things to look for in a good physical therapist. It will not be simply just "My shoulder hurts" 'Oh you have ____". They should be asking you where it hurts, what exercises cause pain. Then they should ask you to put your hands and arms in certain position, and press and manipulate them while you inform them if anything hurts. They will be checking the mobility of your joints, pressing on spots to check for muscle tightness and pain.

It will be much more than just a Q & A session you would typically see in your typical doctor visit. By the end of it, they should be able to tell you exactly what the issue is, and what to do about it. Most likely it will be exercises to correct compromised mobility issues, and perhaps myofascial release.

Are you near any colleges that offer physical therapy courses? If so, you might be able to get a diagnosis for free. You could offer to come in and provide a "real life learning opportunity for them to evaluate what they've learned". Or if they balk, you could (hypothetically, of course) find a way to contact one of the graduate students and offer to pay them under the table for them to do the same thing.

Yeah, my previous two physiotherapists could ''know exactly what was wrong'' by a 5 minute story I told them. I just contacted a physiotherapist here that is also the physiotherapist for the local football (soccer, not rugby) team, they should probably be helpful because they deal with a lot of athletes.

[Truth Teller]

(01-12-2016 03:36 AM)ZeZay Wrote:  

It's either the back of the shoulders, when doing vertical pulling (not the lats), of the front of the shoulders when doing pressing, also the day later I always have some small bicep strain as well that connects to the shoulders.

That sounds like your rotator cuff. Get it checked out. Could also be a labrum, but you need an ultrasound to know for sure.

[Realism]

Hey man, your progress isn't bad, I mean bad compared to what? You gained 17KG in 1 year and tou aren't even 18 yet.

I'm no pro, but ive been athletic most my life (wrestling/martial arts/skateboarding) and have been lifting about 1-2 years on and off, but consistently the last 6 months, gains have been slow but good.

Here are my suggestions based off my personal experience.

1. Take care of your shoulder/injury, you'll forever be giving it 75% with it, and prolonging the injury. Once healed you can give 100% or at least 85-95%.

2. Don't get discouraged after 1 year, you're really young and have a long way to go. Most of the newbie gains happen in your first few months, it will only get harder and harder to make gainz, but thats how bb'ing works.

3. Don't compare yourself to others, there are so many variables that go into someone's development, your only competition is yourself.

4. Switch things up, when i first started I tried the whole push/pull thing, didnt really like it. Then tried full body workouts, was ok. Now i go by muscle group, usually chest/tri/bi , back/shoulders, legs/abs. You need to adjust your workout as you learn more about lifting & your own body. You have the 3 compound lifts down so thats a great base to build off.
(Squats for legs, deadlifts for back, bench press for chest/tri)

5. Stretch when you can, especially back/shoulders. We have a machine at my gym, feels great to stretch my lower/upper back and my shoulders before I really get into it.

Good luck bro, hope something in this post helps

[StrikeBack]

Go see a physio to get your shoulders fixed. It's a complicated joint, you won't be able to successfully diagnose it on the Internet.

Regarding your progress, be patient. You won't turn into a beast after 1 year of training at 16-17 years old (or any age). The body doesn't respond linearly despite the impression that beginner programs may give you.

One of my training partners was very skinny despite lifting hard and regularly from 18-22. He used to be so much smaller than me. Then suddenly the guy grew into a gorilla for the next 2 years (all natural, no roid, same eating regime), and now he's way wider and bigger than me.

[ZeZay]

Hey guys,

Thanks for all the suggestions and comments so far. I think I've found a pretty good physiotherapist, he's also the physiotherapist for the local soccer team and he spent a good 25 minutes trying out everything finding out what's wrong with my shoulders. For now I shouldn't do any chest/shoulder exercises and only train back without overhead movements, so I may only do tbar rows and seated cable rows and things like that, and legs. I don't know how long it will be before I can train everything again but better take some time off and be sure than to mess up again. He has given me stretches and strengthening exercises to do in the meantime.

[ZeZay]

Update:

It has been one month since my last post. I'm still going to the physiotherapist, and I currently have this routine:

Close grip seated rows 3x15
Straight bar medium grip seated rows 3x15
Wide grip seated rows 3x15
Reverse flyes 3x15
Mid-height cable chest flyes 3x15

abs/arms whatever exercises I want to do.

I may do this routine 3x a week and may not do any other exercises for shoulders/chest. I haven't tried to do pushups or pullups yet however when holding my arms above shoulder-height for extended periods of time (for example straight like a zombie, for 30 seconds) they still get fatigued really quickly, and start to hurt. Let alone trying to hold my bodyweight with my arms overhead (like when doing pullups). I'll keep doing this routine but I don't think it's helping as much as it should be. Maybe I'm overthinking it.

I also fell on my tailbone 2 weeks ago and bruised it. Can't do any leg exercises at the moment because they all hurt too much. Don't know when this will be healed but from what I've read and how it feels it will probably take a while.

Since I can't really gain any muscle or strength at this point it would be a good time to cut, right? I'm not sure what to do now but I really want to lose my bodyfat. However I can't train legs and I'm doing a modified upper body routine so maybe I'll lose too much strength/muscle when I cut? And then it will take way longer to get it back than if I would just wait a few extra months now.

What is your guys opinion on this? I'll either cut or eat at maintenance. Thanks in advance.

[rudebwoy]

How about taking time off the gym completely.

Find activities you can do outside, can you run or jog? Wind sprints are good for cardio and burning fat.

Are you able to swim, that is one of the best exercises for muscle development and cardio.

Tour first goal should be to heal your injuries.

[ZeZay]

(02-24-2016 02:09 PM)rudebwoy Wrote:  

How about taking time off the gym completely.

Find activities you can do outside, can you run or jog? Wind sprints are good for cardio and burning fat.

Are you able to swim, that is one of the best exercises for muscle development and cardio.

Tour first goal should be to heal your injuries.

Thanks for all your help in the thread so far.
My physiotherapist gave me that routine to help me heal/rehab my shoulders so I don't think taking time off the gym completely is an option because I have to do the physio exercises.

I can swim, I also really enjoy swimming. Problem is that it's really expensive especially if I want to go more than once a week. Going one time costs 5 euros, going one month 2x a week will cost 30 euros each month + 30 euros sign up membership costs. I have a part time job however I'm not able to afford that yet.

I've send an email to a few pools maybe I can get something sorted out for cheaper, we'll see.

[rudebwoy]

Ask about student rates, or rates for people with low income.

Good Luck

RB