[Kieran]

I was standing overhead pressing a lot recently (running boring but big 5/3/1 variation). Managed to get my OHP to 72.5 kg at 69 kg bodyweight, but have developed sub-acromial impingement most likely from the high volume. What's working for me so far has been completely ditching overhead work, getting rid of dips which seemed to be aggravating the problem, continuing to run 5/3/1 boring but big for bench, and doing a lot of strict rowing in the 10-15 range, 5 sets per exercise. I've also kept light high rep lateral raises for some direct shoulder work (usually do 4 sets of 8-15 reps), which I do after bench and warm up thoroughly beforehand. I also re-introduced shrugs for some direct trap work due to not being able to deadlift temporarily, or overhead press. I expect to lose some size from my shoulders, but it's not worth the risk of allowing things to get worse.

[Doodoo]

Your body is clearly giving you a signal that your shoulder is damaged. Instead of self diagnosing go see a professional. You need your shoulders for the rest of your lifetime, don't crook it up on your 17th.

[F1l1pV]

(01-07-2016 04:42 PM)H1N1 Wrote:  

so consequently lack a foundation of muscle and coordination that would be very helpful to another beginner in your position. That is ok, it's no problem to develop this, you just need to be honest with yourself about where you are now, where you started, and what you are hoping to achieve.

Not sure if I did that quote correctly, trying to get the part I am wondering about. Anyways, how would I go about developing this coordination? I feel like I am definately lacking in this regard ( I just started lifting ).

[ZeZay]

Hey guys,

It’s been one year since I first made this post, so I figured a progress post is appropriate. First of all I want to thank every single one of you that has taken some time off his day to comment on this thread in the past year, I did not expect so many comments. I turned 18 a few weeks ago and I haven’t stopped going to the gym. I wish with all the information, advice and help I’ve gotten from you guys I could come back with a progress report where I’ve made a lot of gains. Sadly, physique wise I look pretty much the same as one year ago, however through the months I've changed a lot because I cut to 70kg and bulked back up to 85kg. I’m also not happy with my strength. I try my hardest to do everything right but it seems like every time I go to the gym something doesn’t go as planned, either I don’t hit a strength goal, I have trouble with form from a certain exercise, etc. I’ve still made a bit of strength gains though. Week by week it doesn’t seem that bad however looking back one year later I’m not much farther than I was before. The pictures are from after a cut (end of july), and then after a bulk again (now). Details below.
http://imgur.com/a/5jllQ

My current stats:

Heigth: 186cm
Weight: 85kg
Squat 100kg 3x5 (however the last few weeks I’ve been having knee issues)
Deadlift 150kg 1x5
OHP 45kg 3x5
Bench press 26kg dumbbells 4x10
chin-ups bodyweight 4x4

Jan 2016-July 2016
The first 6 months of the year were spent on cutting body fat and rehabbing my shoulders, with swimming (thanks moma and rudebwoy, this helped a lot and I still swim ocassionally) and lots of stretching. During this I also did bodyweight exercises as suggested by many people in this thread, 3x a week a basic routine with pushups, chin-ups, sprints, squat progressions etc. I also hurt my tailbone badly during this time (I tripped over a plastic beer cup at a party) which means any type of deadlift or squat hurt immensely, so I did not touch the weights in this time. During these 6 months I lost a lot of bodyfat, I started out at 85kg at the start of 2016 and I was 70kg at the end of it. I went from 0 chinups to 8 chinups (this was huge for me) and was at 15 incline diamond pushups. However judging from my pictures I lost a lot of muscle as well. I’m not sure how this happened as I was making strength gains on pullups and pushups.
I lost a lot of strength on lower body exercises from hurting my tailbone so my lifts at the end of july were

50kg squat
110kg deadlift
did not OHP yet so I’m not sure, I started a few months ago with 35kg ohp when it felt safe on the shoulders.
20kg db bench press
8 chinups
at 70kg

I feel like most of my bodyweight gains were from me losing a lot of fat I had so that bdoyweight exercises became easier. Because I gained a bit of fat again and bodyweight exercises became a lot harder.

July 2016-Jan 2017
The next 6 months I felt like it was time to hit the weights again, I felt like giving it a second chance and maybe with better shoulders I would be having a better time. Also I could do 8 chinups this time compared to 0 before so I figured I kind of had a strength base that was important from bodyweight exercises and could probably start doing weighted chinups soon. I did bodyweight before and got some reasonable results (at least strength wise, I lost a lot of muscle on my cut for some reason) so I combined weights with bodyweight exercises. I kept doing chin-ups and pushups. However I slowly felt as I got more advanced on pushups the later versions started hurting my shoulders more. This is to be expected with long arms and fragile joints. DB Bench press didn’t hurt my shoulders so I started to do this instead, however there is a problem where I can’t get the first repetition of the weight up if I don’t have a spotter, after this the reps go just fine, and I go very low, it’s not like I cheat on the reps after the initial one.
This is why I only do it once a week when I go with a gym buddy, so it doesn't take a very long time to ask for a spotter every set. I'm doing OHP twice because I want to increase OHP weight, it's stalling for a long time. My initial plan was to do weighted chinups, however my chinups actually started to go down in reps after bulking for a while even when I was doing it 2x a week.

I ate 3000 calories a day and slept 7-8 hours, just like before.

My routine was Greyskull LP 3x a week.
Monday
Main exercises
4x failure chinups
4x8 DB Bench press
3x5 squats
Assistance
3x8 DB OHP
3x15 Lat Pulldown wide
3x12 Hammer curl
3x12 Tricep extension

Thursday
Main exercises
4x failure chinups
4x5 OHP weight
3x5 squats
Assistance
3x8 Hex Press
3x8 Cable Row
3x12 Face pulls
3x15 Cable Crunches

Saturday
Main exercises
1x5 Deadlifts
4x12 OHP volume
Assistance
4x8 DB Row
3x12 Cable Chest flyes
3x12 Shoulder lat raises
3x12 Cable one handed bicep curl
3x12 DB skullcrushers

I also salsa dance twice a week, which is cardio I guess. This is awesome by the way, by far the most fun hobby I've ever done.

Reason I don’t do barbell bench press:
Bench press still hurts my shoulders after many months of rehab and stretching, it seems if I go further down than 90 degrees it hurts, even with retracted scapula and trying to create a big arch so that the bar has to travel less distance. I can live with this though because as I understand it barbell bench is not absolutely necessary. I can still dumbbell bench and OHP.

I did add a bit of strength on my deadlift and squat, bench and ohp are quite hard to gain for me, still made strength but not at the rate I want to. And I lost a lot of strength on chin-ups for some reason. I think I bulked too hard because I have a lot of fat right now as well. However if I bulk so hard that I gain significant amounts of fat as well it's strange I'm not making too much strength gains. Looking at my pictures from after my bulk I think I look almost exactly the same as one year ago. Right now I have knee problems with my squat as well which I am stretching and foam rolling a lot for.

Once again, what do I do? Feels like deja vu from one year ago. I put in so much effort in mobility work, form on exercises, keeping a sleeping schedule, eating healthy and going to the gym 3x a week for at least 2 hours. I feel like my time might be better spent reading self improvement books or trying to learn skills to make money, to be honest. However I will feel so guilty if I don't go to the gym because I really want a good body and know how important it is. I think i missed in total 2 workouts past year due to circumstances I couldn't even control and I still felt guilty every time.

My goal physique is something like brad pitt from fight club, maybe with a bit more muscle. I know somewhere in this thread I posted my ''goal physique'' which was obviously not realistic.

On another note, I've been ''coaching'' a few of my friends and helping them with their diet, recipes, and they seem to be making such great gains, some are more muscular than me after 3 months when I'm the one finetuning their lifting programs, helping them with their lift form etc, I often go together with them and I see them adding on the 2.5kg every workout that I struggle with. and I know part of it is because I am taller with longer joints but after a while it gets discouraging for myself.

This all sounds very frustrated, I guess I just needed to vent a bit because I feel better now. Once again I want to thank everyone that has commented before and if you feel like looking at my situation again I will be very grateful.

[SamuelBRoberts]

I'll leave the actual analysis to people who know more than me about this sort of thing, but man, you sound really miserable. Like, not even the "I'm playing up my frustration for an internet message board because it's kind of funny," you just sound like you're having an awful time.

[ZeZay]

(01-24-2017 02:24 PM)SamuelBRoberts Wrote:  

I'll leave the actual analysis to people who know more than me about this sort of thing, but man, you sound really miserable. Like, not even the "I'm playing up my frustration for an internet message board because it's kind of funny," you just sound like you're having an awful time.

To be honest it's been messing with my head a little bit. I know how important lifting and having a good body is so I made it my #1 goal for the past 2 years to work on that, and I don't think I did a very good job. Of course I did a lot of other stuff as well for self improvement but lifting was my main focus.

[cascadecombo]

working out 2 hours for 3x a week shouldn't be the hinderancestors I think I picked up on while skimming. You look very young still and while it's not what you may want there is a bit of a size difference. most guys with muscle have been working out for a long time. you make it part of your lifestyle and gradually increase in size and strength. I wouldn't worry about bulking with the stage you're at now,


Honestly I'd suggest some kinda sport, I'm partial to wrestling, to allow you an outlet to see what your strength can do and to also give you extra drive to become stronger due to the competitive nature men have.

[SamuelBRoberts]

Going to the gym while demoralized, frustrated, and angry at your lack of gains sounds like a great recipe for injury to me.

[scorpion]

It's possible that ZeZay just has extremely poor genetics for putting on muscle. A minority of people (20-25%) fall into this category, and obviously a portion of that group will fall toward the extreme low end. These people are called "low responders". Article that talks about it: http://strengtheory.com/genetics-and-str...different/

ZeZay, have you tried your hand at endurance sports? It's possible you have a super-abundance of type I (endurance) muscle fibers, which would drastically limit your ability to develop muscular hypertrophy. On the other hand, you would excel in endurance activities like cycling, swimming, long distance running, etc... Your problem could simply be that you're a born triathlete trying to play at being a bodybuilder. Something to consider, at least.

It's also possible you have unnaturally low testosterone for a man of 19. That might be worth looking into as well.

Finally, how is your diet? You say you are "eating healthy", but if you aren't eating tons of high quality protein and carbs that's going to limit you a great deal. You have to take your diet just as seriously as your training, especially as a hardgainer.

I would consider these things and then decide whether or not you want to give the bodybuilding thing another serious go. Maybe yes, maybe no. But if it turns out you just aren't genetically inclined to benefit from bodybuilding, then by all means walk away and find other athletic pursuits to engage in. There's no point in banging your head against the wall in frustration and likely messing up your joints for life for zero benefit. Tall, lean guys with great endurance can do very well in boxing and kickboxing, for example (I see you are Dutch, you have some of the best kickboxing trainers in the world right at your doorstep). There's no requirement to have a muscular physique to lead a successful life. Sure, it helps, but what if it's just not in the cards for you? Part of living and growing up as a man is recognizing your strengths and weakenesses. Gotta play to your strengths and learn to work around your weakenesses. That might mean accepting you'll never be jacked, no different than the 5'4" guy has to accept he'll never be 6'1" like you are. You might decide to cut your losses with bodybuilding and find something else that you're really good at. That's just real life. We aren't all the same. Find your niche.

[sterling_archer]

What would you guys say at what time one can say that he didn't make enough progress, the progress is too slow or that program is not suitable?

For example I am currently in my 17th week of doing my program at home. It is similar to SS but with BW squat progressions instead squats with barbell and BW pushups progressions instead of bench press. Reasons for that is that I am doing exercises with EZ bar and I don't have squat rack nor proper bench. It is impossible to safely conduct these two exercises.
Diet is as good I can get it to be (sometimes there are limitations), also I use my fitness pal to track everything.

So, after 17 weeks I gained about 1,5 - 2 kg of muscle. I have calipers and measure myself so I am sure that its not fat, also it is obvious when looking at photos (I photo myself each 3 weeks or so).

Would you consider this too slow or steady muscle growth?

[ZeZay]

(01-24-2017 08:43 PM)scorpion Wrote:  

It's possible that ZeZay just has extremely poor genetics for putting on muscle. A minority of people (20-25%) fall into this category, and obviously a portion of that group will fall toward the extreme low end. These people are called "low responders". Article that talks about it: http://strengtheory.com/genetics-and-str...different/

ZeZay, have you tried your hand at endurance sports? It's possible you have a super-abundance of type I (endurance) muscle fibers, which would drastically limit your ability to develop muscular hypertrophy. On the other hand, you would excel in endurance activities like cycling, swimming, long distance running, etc... Your problem could simply be that you're a born triathlete trying to play at being a bodybuilder. Something to consider, at least.

It's also possible you have unnaturally low testosterone for a man of 19. That might be worth looking into as well.

Finally, how is your diet? You say you are "eating healthy", but if you aren't eating tons of high quality protein and carbs that's going to limit you a great deal. You have to take your diet just as seriously as your training, especially as a hardgainer.

I would consider these things and then decide whether or not you want to give the bodybuilding thing another serious go. Maybe yes, maybe no. But if it turns out you just aren't genetically inclined to benefit from bodybuilding, then by all means walk away and find other athletic pursuits to engage in. There's no point in banging your head against the wall in frustration and likely messing up your joints for life for zero benefit. Tall, lean guys with great endurance can do very well in boxing and kickboxing, for example (I see you are Dutch, you have some of the best kickboxing trainers in the world right at your doorstep). There's no requirement to have a muscular physique to lead a successful life. Sure, it helps, but what if it's just not in the cards for you? Part of living and growing up as a man is recognizing your strengths and weakenesses. Gotta play to your strengths and learn to work around your weakenesses. That might mean accepting you'll never be jacked, no different than the 5'4" guy has to accept he'll never be 6'1" like you are. You might decide to cut your losses with bodybuilding and find something else that you're really good at. That's just real life. We aren't all the same. Find your niche.

Thanks for this reply. You're definitely right and I'll try some new kinds of sports soon.

I've wanted to do boxing for a while and had a few practice classes, however I was put off by the risk of brain damage. Is this a valid concern or not?

[Steelex]

First place, you're doing great. Your progress is absolutely fine for someone your age. The key is to never stop, and keep working on your form and increasing the weight when you can do all your reps with good form. You've got 4 years till you're even 21, and you can do a lot by then.

Second place, you're not even done with puberty. Your not going to start getting great gains till you hit tanner stage 4 in your hormonal development. You just don't have the testosterone in your body yet.

I used to be thin as a rail at your age. Now I'm a monster. The only time I regret is the time I took off and didn't train. I could have been miles ahead.

Keep going, train hard, focus HARD on your form, and don't ever give up.

[joecolombia]

Ive been consistently training for the past 4 years, and only until a few months ago i started seeing any decent changes on my body and strength. Turns out i was not training properly and my body was already used to the amount of training i did every day.

I tried a strength program called Smolov. It gave me amazing changes within a few weeks. Stuff is wasn't able to pull though was easy after starting it.

I began smolov with back squat and got a 85 pound PR gain.

I will make my first bench press PR this week and biceps in 3 weeks

Smolov is the shit.

[tapthatass]

@zezay

I had a similar body when I first started lifting (zero chest gains = check. Accumulation of fat near the core = Just started. Check.). You made the typical mistake that a skinny-fat person makes -> bulking the wrong way. So you gained a lot of fat instead of muscle.

A few things :

1) Your calorie intake should not be more than 150 surplus. Now, make sure that 50- 65% of calories come from your protein and fat.

2) Stop lifting for a few months. Focus on complex bodyweight exercises (squats, pull ups, burpees , pushups, jumping jacks etc). The more muscles it activates, the better. Our aim should be to improve body composition overall and get rid of that fat.

3) Bodies like yours and mine needs endurance first. Then comes hypertrophy and the last one is strength. I don't know if this cycle might work for you but give it a try! Endurance > hypertrophy > strength. Once you develop enough endurance then go into full 2:1 hypertrophy- strength mode for a few months. Main the same 150 calorie surplus but increase protein intake and decrease fats.

4) Since you're a kid, I think your testosterone levels haven't yet maxed. Maybe go for a check. Low testosterone = impossible to gain muscle.

5) If your belly grows faster than muscle then cut fats and increase protein. You'll eventually figure out the right ratio for your body.

6) STOP CARDIO. I cannot stress this enough. Cardio never worked for me. It doesn't solve the overall body composition problem you're facing (in fact makes it worse). So, bodyweight circuits is the only route you must take. Trust me, it's more efficient than cardio for a skinny fat person.

In the end, it all comes down to complex bodyweight exercises and smart nutrition. Eat as much as protein as you can while at the same time taking low to medium levels of fat (extra fat intake is dangerous for skinny- fat person).

[Elster]

(01-25-2017 11:48 AM)ZeZay Wrote:  

I've wanted to do boxing for a while and had a few practice classes, however I was put off by the risk of brain damage. Is this a valid concern or not?

Only if you are going to compete (fight) on a very regular basis and/or a professional level.

Otherwise with practice and the occassional ring fight you won't be exposing your head to constant strong blows and if you do get them,you'll have enough time to recover as opposed to getting repeatedly struck in the head every second or third week

[H1N1]

(01-31-2017 03:27 AM)El_Gostro Wrote:  

(01-25-2017 11:48 AM)ZeZay Wrote:  

I've wanted to do boxing for a while and had a few practice classes, however I was put off by the risk of brain damage. Is this a valid concern or not?

Only if you are going to compete (fight) on a very regular basis and/or a professional level.

Otherwise with practice and the occassional ring fight you won't be exposing your head to constant strong blows and if you do get them,you'll have enough time to recover as opposed to getting repeatedly struck in the head every second or third week

Personally this doesn't match up with my experience of boxing at all.

The risk of brain trauma is very high. In all the gyms I've trained in, those of us who wanted to be good were sparring 20+ rounds each week. You can rack up a lot of blows to the head in a single week, some of them pretty hard, especially as you'll often be sparring guys outside your weight class. Fights are the least of the concern, as they are 9 minutes of boxing semi-regularly. Sparring is 60 minutes + per week, with bigger guys often, who don't suddenly lose their killer instinct or love of a scrap just because you're sparring. In my non-medical opinion, sparring is where the bulk of the damage gets done.

Personally I love boxing, would love to still be doing it, and think it's something that every man should do at some point in his life. That said, I'm well aware that it is not something you should do for too long, and there are very real risks associated with it. For a while, I think they merit it, but not indefinitely.

[Elster]

(01-31-2017 05:04 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

(01-31-2017 03:27 AM)El_Gostro Wrote:  

(01-25-2017 11:48 AM)ZeZay Wrote:  

I've wanted to do boxing for a while and had a few practice classes, however I was put off by the risk of brain damage. Is this a valid concern or not?

Only if you are going to compete (fight) on a very regular basis and/or a professional level.

Otherwise with practice and the occassional ring fight you won't be exposing your head to constant strong blows and if you do get them,you'll have enough time to recover as opposed to getting repeatedly struck in the head every second or third week

Personally this doesn't match up with my experience of boxing at all.

The risk of brain trauma is very high. In all the gyms I've trained in, those of us who wanted to be good were sparring 20+ rounds each week. You can rack up a lot of blows to the head in a single week, some of them pretty hard, especially as you'll often be sparring guys outside your weight class. Fights are the least of the concern, as they are 9 minutes of boxing semi-regularly. Sparring is 60 minutes + per week, with bigger guys often, who don't suddenly lose their killer instinct or love of a scrap just because you're sparring. In my non-medical opinion, sparring is where the bulk of the damage gets done.

Personally I love boxing, would love to still be doing it, and think it's something that every man should do at some point in his life. That said, I'm well aware that it is not something you should do for too long, and there are very real risks associated with it. For a while, I think they merit it, but not indefinitely.

I stand corrected then.

I did train boxing for a couple of years but I never competed and tended to keep my distance when fighting heavy hitters, I guess I was also lucky enough I just didnt happen to get the bloodthirsty psychos (by contrast I did get a lot of those in Thai kick-boxing)

[DaKi]

(01-07-2016 04:01 PM)ZeZay Wrote:  

Hey guys, I’ve recently posted in the Newbie forum and got great responses. Everyone is super helpful here. So I decided I would try to make a fitness thread as well on this site. I’ve been going to the gym consistently for over a year now however my gains have been pretty bad. I’m wondering how to fix that. This is a very long detailed post so if you don’t feel like reading it that’s fine.

Okay so my stats:
Start:
age:just turned 16
weight: 60kg
height: 182cm
deadlift:40kg
bench press:5kg x2 with dumbbells
squat:10kg small bar

Now:
age:17
weight: 87kg
height: 185cm
deadlift:135kg
bench press:50kg and 55kg decline
squat:80kg

progress pics: http://imgur.com/a/dMbHE First one is when I started, last two are now.

Sleep and diet:
I’ve been bulking on 3000 calories the whole time with macros 40p/30f/30c, tracked with myfitnesspal and the occasional cheatmeal. I’ve got 7-8 hours of sleep most of the time if I don’t have a week/few weeks where I feel really depressed and got trouble sleeping.

Program:
First 4 months I did stronglifts 5x5 when I was learning everything about lifting. I also read a whole lot about fitness and got a good idea about how to approach this.
Then I started doing PPL but I got shoulder problems and switched up my routine a few times. This is my current routine. I’ll do Pull Push (+abs) Rest Pull Push Legs (+abs) rest and repeat. so 2x Push 2x Pull 1x Legs each week, going 5x a week.

Push:
(Decline) bench press 3x5 (decline for shoulder health)
One handed landmine barbell press (this is replacement for incline bench, for shoulder health)
Tricep pulldowns 3x12
Face pulls 3x12 (for shoulder health)

Pull:
Dumbbell rows 3x8 (used to do pullups here but my shoulders react very bad to those even assisted)
T-bar rows 3x8
Bicep curls 3x12

Legs:
Squat 3x5
Deadlift 1x5
Abs 3x15

It’s very modified for my shoulders. I don’t have it on pull workouts unless I do pullups, but on push workouts about 30% of the time I have extreme discomfort on the shoulders/side of the pec. Like in this picture here. http://imgur.com/YdAReM7 It’s not pain. Just discomfort. I feel it about 30% of the time I bench press, it’s very inconsistent. However when I feel it I get like 3 reps less than I got last workout. And when I don’t feel it I often only progress like 1 rep every week making it very slow. Went to 4 different physios including a sports physio in the past 6 months and none of those have helped and didn’t really know what it was. Some of them didn’t even recommended stretches or anything. Here’s a form check for bench press with 40kg, I know I wasn’t locking out but that was because I was doing it really quick and I didn’t want to bother the guy filming me anymore. Normally I do lockout, and then I push the bar towards the rack, not in a straight line up. I retract my scapula and focus on bending the bar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP50BulfkoQ
I’ve posted this form check on bodybuilding.com as well and I don’t think my form is the problem. Because it didn’t go away I switched to dumbbell bench press. That helped for a few weeks. Then i got the same problem. I went to decline bench press, it helped for a few weeks, then it got the same problem. The general advice for this would be go to the doctor/physiotherapist however I’ve done that a lot and the problem always comes back.

To give an example my last 3 weeks of progress on decline bench press:
Workout 1 52.5kg x6
2 52.5kg x8 (good day)
3 55kg x5 (felt okay)
4 55kg x6 (felt okay)
5 55kg x6 (don’t know why I didn’t progress at all here, I ate and slept well.)
6 55kg x3 (the weird shoulder discomfort thing again)

As you can see that’s very slow progress. I’ve also had some problems with my knees but I think those are just growing pains. I have to go easy on the squats that’s why my squats didn’t progress much at all either. And since I’ve done PPL I do squats 1x a week not 3x a week. Only my deadlift progresses consistently. Maybe because I have long arms so benching is harder and deadlifting is easier.

So the main things are my shoulders really sit in the way of me progressing and if I have a few workouts where my shoulders don’t bother me I don’t really progress fast either. I know you guys aren’t doctors and stuff but the real life doctors/physiotherapists have been pretty terrible so I might as well give it a try here. My goal is to look good, but I know that I have to have strength as well to build muscle. Thanks for reading. If anyone has any advice regarding any of this I'd be glad to hear it.

Just focusing on the lifting aspect, if you would like a program which is easy to follow and tells you exactly what to do, I did this over 20 years ago, very successfully. I think it is particularly useful for those who already know the basic exercises, such as "how to squat" or "how to bench" but are unsure of how to design their workouts:

https://powerbuilding.com/thestory

[Matt3B]

ZeZay

I am concerned about many things from your stats and pictures, as well as your frustrations.

Firstly, I can see progress from your initial pictures. You are young and you are not going to turn into a stacked bodybuilder in such a short frame of time. As others have said, as you age, your hormones and testosterone levels will see to it that the improvements at the gym are reflected in your body.

Next, your injuries are a major concern for me.

You jumped from 40kg on deadlifts to 135kg in one year, aged 16 to 17. I would like you to get pictures or videos of your form because that is way too rapid of a jump. From what I can see, I really believe that your form is not correct and your shoulders are taking the brunt of the load, hence why you are having injuries here.

Similarly, your knees with your squats suggests that you are lifting too much weight with incorrect form.

I would suggest a complete reset of your routine and work on what's called the starting strength routine, working in an inverse pyramid.

The starting strength focuses on the compound lifts which will strengthen and size your body equally. It is vitally important that you do these with correct form, and you should be getting feedback on your form from PTs or even from some of the seasoned guys on here or other forums.

The inverse pyramid works in a sets like so: 6 reps of your heaviest weight, 8 reps a bit lighter, 10 reps a bit lighter (I do it in -5kg increments). When you can comfortably get each set out, increase the weight incrementally (buy 0.5kg weights if possible to add on each week). So if you can get 6/6 of your top set but only 6/8 of your middle set, add weight to your top set next week but keep the middle set at the same weight.

I really think you are lifting too heavy with the incorrect form. You would have a much better physique if you were correctly doing 150kg of deadlifts and 100kg of squats. I think you are too focused on how you look to others in the gym and should start lifting lighter weights with more of a focus on your form.

I would honestly drop down to 60kg on your deadlifts again and make sure you are doing it with correct form. Build it up from there. A lighter weight with correct form will improve you more than heavier weights with incorrect form.

You're also eating a lot more calories than you are supposed to be. You need to work out your BMR which will tell you how many calories you should be aiming for on your workout days and your rest days. You'll also need to aim for a minimum of 100g of protein per day. Use this site to work this out.

This all sounds like basic, generic advice, and you will naturally feel like dropping weights is unnecessary and not something you want to do. It's just that looking at your body, reading about your injuries and seeing the weight that you're lifting doesn't add up to me.

The gym doesn't need to be complicated. I've been seeing massive improvements in myself since I started the starting strength routine and it also cuts down my gym time. You don't need to focus on isolation exercises. These are intended for bodybuilders that want to emphasise a muscle group for competitions.

My routine, with the inverted pyramid is as below (warm up + 3 sets for each). If you are lifting with correct form and watching your calorie intake, in 6 months from now you should see a good improvement. 12 months, a much better improvement. Building mass takes a lot of time. It could take you another 5 years before you're even happy with your size, but you need to look at where you were in the past, and not where you're not.

Monday:
Chest press
Incline chest press
Bicep curls with preacher bar
Weighted chin ups

Wednesday:
Deadlift
Weighted pull ups
Bent over row
Weighted dips

Friday:
Military press (standing)
Shrugs
Squats

I will also do my abs Mondays and Fridays.

I truly believe it would really do you some good to follow a similar routine. Going to the gym is just about consistency over time, not getting to the heaviest weights as quickly as possible.

[ZeZay]

(02-14-2017 01:03 PM)Matt3B Wrote:  

ZeZay

I am concerned about many things from your stats and pictures, as well as your frustrations.

Firstly, I can see progress from your initial pictures. You are young and you are not going to turn into a stacked bodybuilder in such a short frame of time. As others have said, as you age, your hormones and testosterone levels will see to it that the improvements at the gym are reflected in your body.

Next, your injuries are a major concern for me.

You jumped from 40kg on deadlifts to 135kg in one year, aged 16 to 17. I would like you to get pictures or videos of your form because that is way too rapid of a jump. From what I can see, I really believe that your form is not correct and your shoulders are taking the brunt of the load, hence why you are having injuries here.

Similarly, your knees with your squats suggests that you are lifting too much weight with incorrect form.

I would suggest a complete reset of your routine and work on what's called the starting strength routine, working in an inverse pyramid.

The starting strength focuses on the compound lifts which will strengthen and size your body equally. It is vitally important that you do these with correct form, and you should be getting feedback on your form from PTs or even from some of the seasoned guys on here or other forums.

The inverse pyramid works in a sets like so: 6 reps of your heaviest weight, 8 reps a bit lighter, 10 reps a bit lighter (I do it in -5kg increments). When you can comfortably get each set out, increase the weight incrementally (buy 0.5kg weights if possible to add on each week). So if you can get 6/6 of your top set but only 6/8 of your middle set, add weight to your top set next week but keep the middle set at the same weight.

I really think you are lifting too heavy with the incorrect form. You would have a much better physique if you were correctly doing 150kg of deadlifts and 100kg of squats. I think you are too focused on how you look to others in the gym and should start lifting lighter weights with more of a focus on your form.

I would honestly drop down to 60kg on your deadlifts again and make sure you are doing it with correct form. Build it up from there. A lighter weight with correct form will improve you more than heavier weights with incorrect form.

You're also eating a lot more calories than you are supposed to be. You need to work out your BMR which will tell you how many calories you should be aiming for on your workout days and your rest days. You'll also need to aim for a minimum of 100g of protein per day. Use this site to work this out.

This all sounds like basic, generic advice, and you will naturally feel like dropping weights is unnecessary and not something you want to do. It's just that looking at your body, reading about your injuries and seeing the weight that you're lifting doesn't add up to me.

The gym doesn't need to be complicated. I've been seeing massive improvements in myself since I started the starting strength routine and it also cuts down my gym time. You don't need to focus on isolation exercises. These are intended for bodybuilders that want to emphasise a muscle group for competitions.

My routine, with the inverted pyramid is as below (warm up + 3 sets for each). If you are lifting with correct form and watching your calorie intake, in 6 months from now you should see a good improvement. 12 months, a much better improvement. Building mass takes a lot of time. It could take you another 5 years before you're even happy with your size, but you need to look at where you were in the past, and not where you're not.

Monday:
Chest press
Incline chest press
Bicep curls with preacher bar
Weighted chin ups

Wednesday:
Deadlift
Weighted pull ups
Bent over row
Weighted dips

Friday:
Military press (standing)
Shrugs
Squats

I will also do my abs Mondays and Fridays.

I truly believe it would really do you some good to follow a similar routine. Going to the gym is just about consistency over time, not getting to the heaviest weights as quickly as possible.

Hey Matt,

Thank you for your post. I understand your concern and from what I wrote in my original post it definitely seems like my form is very bad. I honestly don't think that's the case though.

First of all you mentioned that 40kg to 135kg on deadlift is way too quick of a jump. I have pretty long arms and deadlift is the only exercise that has really felt natural to me. It kind of is like a rack pull with my arm length. I followed Stronglifts 5x5 to get to a 135 kg deadlift, after more than 1 year (like 1 year and 3 months). If I followed the general progression, which is 20kg a month on deadlift, I would be deadlifting 280kg after a year if I started at 40kg. Of course that’s ridiculous and nobody progresses perfectly, 280kg is like elite powerlifting level. But I don’t think going from 40kg to 135kg, even with how my physique looks, is unreasonable for someone that is probably genetically gifted to deadlift. With that 135kg deadlift, after the same 1 years and 3 months I also had trouble benching 50kg, while weighing 85kg, and could not do a single chinup and less than 5 pushups. That is the physique you see in the pictures. I also deadlift sumo by the way, which places even more of the lift on the legs instead of the back. I use wrist straps as well which I should have stated. I feel with a bit more grip strength I won't overcompensate grip by hunching forward and with sumo's I can really focus on the actual movement. I never feel anything in my lower back.

You mentioned my physique does not look like it can deadlift 150kg and squat 100kg. I agree, but deadlift and squats are mostly lower body exercises. I did see a lot of improvements in my legs. I did not post a picture of my legs yet, I know they are not huge or impressive but I am happy with their size, especially compared to how they looked before. I don't have a before picture sadly because like most guys I mostly care about my upper body, so I did not take a before picture.

http://imgur.com/WBiTt8T (nsfw guy in underwear)

I am carrying a bit of body fat as well at the moment. My upper body lifts are way weaker than my lower body lifts, and it shows in my physique. I have very long arms, deadlift has always felt very natural to me. I keep a neutral spine etc. I definitely don’t think there’s anything wrong with my deadlift form because it never hurts even in the slightest. Now with squat I’m not sure, my knees are still pretty wonky in general. My current physiotherapy has a gym as well and he watched me squat, he said it’s hard to tell, because he can’t initially see anything wrong, and after stretching for a few months to improve squat depth and mobility he said it’s probably because of my growth spurt in the past, and it will go away in a few years. He said to take it easy now with box squats or pistol squats and give it time.

Overhead press, incline bench press (but not going all the way down, stopping at around the chin), and dips are actually feeling pretty good right now 1 year after my initial post, my shoulders feel way healthier, I've been doing a lot of swimming and stretching etc.

For form I watch a lot of videos and I’ve got a few PT sessions (from guys that are actually big and squat and deadlift themselves in my gym) and they don’t see anything wrong with my form.

If you really don’t believe me I can get form checks in a week or two, because I know it’s hard to believe an 18 year old guy on an internet forum. My main concerns are my upper body though, I don't think if you have good lower body lifts your upper body will automatically look better. There are guys in my gym with really good upper body physiques that never do legs, for example

I definitely ate too much calories, both times I've bulked, and I'll take it way slower next time. I've been too much into the starting strength mentality of eat eat eat to gain strength and size.

I like your routine, especially the inverse pyramid set progression. I was going to do something similar like that, however I’m not sure what I want to do, maybe I want to focus more on a sport, for example BJJ, and do calisthenics on the side (because I can finally do dips now without my shoulders nagging me like crazy), and see if I want to try this bodybuilding/strength type thing again in the future, instead of being frustrated.

[Steelex]

Fwiw, you do have to eat. But if you're gaining more than a half lb a week, it's most likely fat.

If your diet is consistent, weighing yourself every morning after your first piss and recording the results is a good way to establish your caloric needs. It's hard to measure a half lb a week because one good dump can give you a false reading, but seeing averages over two weeks can help you figure out what you need to do diet wise.

[Matt3B]

(02-14-2017 05:12 PM)ZeZay Wrote:  

First of all you mentioned that 40kg to 135kg on deadlift is way too quick of a jump. I have pretty long arms and deadlift is the only exercise that has really felt natural to me. It kind of is like a rack pull with my arm length. I followed Stronglifts 5x5 to get to a 135 kg deadlift, after more than 1 year (like 1 year and 3 months). If I followed the general progression, which is 20kg a month on deadlift, I would be deadlifting 280kg after a year if I started at 40kg. Of course that’s ridiculous and nobody progresses perfectly, 280kg is like elite powerlifting level. But I don’t think going from 40kg to 135kg, even with how my physique looks, is unreasonable for someone that is probably genetically gifted to deadlift. With that 135kg deadlift, after the same 1 years and 3 months I also had trouble benching 50kg, while weighing 85kg, and could not do a single chinup and less than 5 pushups. That is the physique you see in the pictures. I also deadlift sumo by the way, which places even more of the lift on the legs instead of the back. I use wrist straps as well which I should have stated. I feel with a bit more grip strength I won't overcompensate grip by hunching forward and with sumo's I can really focus on the actual movement. I never feel anything in my lower back.

You mentioned my physique does not look like it can deadlift 150kg and squat 100kg. I agree, but deadlift and squats are mostly lower body exercises. I did see a lot of improvements in my legs. I did not post a picture of my legs yet, I know they are not huge or impressive but I am happy with their size, especially compared to how they looked before. I don't have a before picture sadly because like most guys I mostly care about my upper body, so I did not take a before picture.

http://imgur.com/WBiTt8T (nsfw guy in underwear)

I am carrying a bit of body fat as well at the moment. My upper body lifts are way weaker than my lower body lifts, and it shows in my physique. I have very long arms, deadlift has always felt very natural to me. I keep a neutral spine etc. I definitely don’t think there’s anything wrong with my deadlift form because it never hurts even in the slightest. Now with squat I’m not sure, my knees are still pretty wonky in general. My current physiotherapy has a gym as well and he watched me squat, he said it’s hard to tell, because he can’t initially see anything wrong, and after stretching for a few months to improve squat depth and mobility he said it’s probably because of my growth spurt in the past, and it will go away in a few years. He said to take it easy now with box squats or pistol squats and give it time.

Overhead press, incline bench press (but not going all the way down, stopping at around the chin), and dips are actually feeling pretty good right now 1 year after my initial post, my shoulders feel way healthier, I've been doing a lot of swimming and stretching etc.

For form I watch a lot of videos and I’ve got a few PT sessions (from guys that are actually big and squat and deadlift themselves in my gym) and they don’t see anything wrong with my form.

If you really don’t believe me I can get form checks in a week or two, because I know it’s hard to believe an 18 year old guy on an internet forum. My main concerns are my upper body though, I don't think if you have good lower body lifts your upper body will automatically look better. There are guys in my gym with really good upper body physiques that never do legs, for example

I definitely ate too much calories, both times I've bulked, and I'll take it way slower next time. I've been too much into the starting strength mentality of eat eat eat to gain strength and size.

I like your routine, especially the inverse pyramid set progression. I was going to do something similar like that, however I’m not sure what I want to do, maybe I want to focus more on a sport, for example BJJ, and do calisthenics on the side (because I can finally do dips now without my shoulders nagging me like crazy), and see if I want to try this bodybuilding/strength type thing again in the future, instead of being frustrated.

I'm not quite sure about 20kg a month. In the initial stages of going to the gym, you will increase the weights a bit quicker because of the low hanging fruit available to you. Once you start to get around the 90kg - 110kg mark, the progression is a lot, lot slower. This is why I'm unsure about how quickly you've jumped.

As a bit of general advice, I would do away with the wrist straps. Improve your grip strength naturally and use a mixed grip (one overhand and one underhand) whilst doing deadlifts. Alternate the grip each set. There are obviously uses for wrist straps but my train of thought from the things I have read is that if you need to use them as an assist, you are lifting heavier than you can actually handle. Someone can probably correct me on this, however!

I also do sumo deadlifts but still feel my back being worked. I know you said that you think your form is correct but believe me, I've been there. I'm not saying it's incorrect, it's just from the information that you've given, it doesn't add up correctly. You will benefit from being assessed though for sure.

It's interesting that you make the point about guys having bigger upper bodies than lower bodies through not concentrating on their legs, but you have very well developed legs. You don't need to feel a pain somewhere for your form to be incorrect, but if one muscle is being overworked (and not the correct muscle), then you are doing something wrong. Sumo deadlifts are meant to take some of the pressure off of your back, but the lower back is your primary target in deadlifts.

Again, I'm not saying you're doing things incorrectly, I'm just assessing what information you've given and the pictures. It's not about believing you or not, but I've been in a similar position to you and benefited from taking some pictures and videos of my form.

I definitely think you need to bring down your calorie intake. Check out intermittent fasting too.

Maybe some of your injuries are just your age and things will make more sense for you in a couple of years.

[ZeZay]

(02-15-2017 07:18 AM)Matt3B Wrote:  

(02-14-2017 05:12 PM)ZeZay Wrote:  

First of all you mentioned that 40kg to 135kg on deadlift is way too quick of a jump. I have pretty long arms and deadlift is the only exercise that has really felt natural to me. It kind of is like a rack pull with my arm length. I followed Stronglifts 5x5 to get to a 135 kg deadlift, after more than 1 year (like 1 year and 3 months). If I followed the general progression, which is 20kg a month on deadlift, I would be deadlifting 280kg after a year if I started at 40kg. Of course that’s ridiculous and nobody progresses perfectly, 280kg is like elite powerlifting level. But I don’t think going from 40kg to 135kg, even with how my physique looks, is unreasonable for someone that is probably genetically gifted to deadlift. With that 135kg deadlift, after the same 1 years and 3 months I also had trouble benching 50kg, while weighing 85kg, and could not do a single chinup and less than 5 pushups. That is the physique you see in the pictures. I also deadlift sumo by the way, which places even more of the lift on the legs instead of the back. I use wrist straps as well which I should have stated. I feel with a bit more grip strength I won't overcompensate grip by hunching forward and with sumo's I can really focus on the actual movement. I never feel anything in my lower back.

You mentioned my physique does not look like it can deadlift 150kg and squat 100kg. I agree, but deadlift and squats are mostly lower body exercises. I did see a lot of improvements in my legs. I did not post a picture of my legs yet, I know they are not huge or impressive but I am happy with their size, especially compared to how they looked before. I don't have a before picture sadly because like most guys I mostly care about my upper body, so I did not take a before picture.

http://imgur.com/WBiTt8T (nsfw guy in underwear)

I am carrying a bit of body fat as well at the moment. My upper body lifts are way weaker than my lower body lifts, and it shows in my physique. I have very long arms, deadlift has always felt very natural to me. I keep a neutral spine etc. I definitely don’t think there’s anything wrong with my deadlift form because it never hurts even in the slightest. Now with squat I’m not sure, my knees are still pretty wonky in general. My current physiotherapy has a gym as well and he watched me squat, he said it’s hard to tell, because he can’t initially see anything wrong, and after stretching for a few months to improve squat depth and mobility he said it’s probably because of my growth spurt in the past, and it will go away in a few years. He said to take it easy now with box squats or pistol squats and give it time.

Overhead press, incline bench press (but not going all the way down, stopping at around the chin), and dips are actually feeling pretty good right now 1 year after my initial post, my shoulders feel way healthier, I've been doing a lot of swimming and stretching etc.

For form I watch a lot of videos and I’ve got a few PT sessions (from guys that are actually big and squat and deadlift themselves in my gym) and they don’t see anything wrong with my form.

If you really don’t believe me I can get form checks in a week or two, because I know it’s hard to believe an 18 year old guy on an internet forum. My main concerns are my upper body though, I don't think if you have good lower body lifts your upper body will automatically look better. There are guys in my gym with really good upper body physiques that never do legs, for example

I definitely ate too much calories, both times I've bulked, and I'll take it way slower next time. I've been too much into the starting strength mentality of eat eat eat to gain strength and size.

I like your routine, especially the inverse pyramid set progression. I was going to do something similar like that, however I’m not sure what I want to do, maybe I want to focus more on a sport, for example BJJ, and do calisthenics on the side (because I can finally do dips now without my shoulders nagging me like crazy), and see if I want to try this bodybuilding/strength type thing again in the future, instead of being frustrated.

I'm not quite sure about 20kg a month. In the initial stages of going to the gym, you will increase the weights a bit quicker because of the low hanging fruit available to you. Once you start to get around the 90kg - 110kg mark, the progression is a lot, lot slower. This is why I'm unsure about how quickly you've jumped.

As a bit of general advice, I would do away with the wrist straps. Improve your grip strength naturally and use a mixed grip (one overhand and one underhand) whilst doing deadlifts. Alternate the grip each set. There are obviously uses for wrist straps but my train of thought from the things I have read is that if you need to use them as an assist, you are lifting heavier than you can actually handle. Someone can probably correct me on this, however!

I also do sumo deadlifts but still feel my back being worked. I know you said that you think your form is correct but believe me, I've been there. I'm not saying it's incorrect, it's just from the information that you've given, it doesn't add up correctly. You will benefit from being assessed though for sure.

It's interesting that you make the point about guys having bigger upper bodies than lower bodies through not concentrating on their legs, but you have very well developed legs. You don't need to feel a pain somewhere for your form to be incorrect, but if one muscle is being overworked (and not the correct muscle), then you are doing something wrong. Sumo deadlifts are meant to take some of the pressure off of your back, but the lower back is your primary target in deadlifts.

Again, I'm not saying you're doing things incorrectly, I'm just assessing what information you've given and the pictures. It's not about believing you or not, but I've been in a similar position to you and benefited from taking some pictures and videos of my form.

I definitely think you need to bring down your calorie intake. Check out intermittent fasting too.

Maybe some of your injuries are just your age and things will make more sense for you in a couple of years.

My progress did get a lot slower after 100kg, last year I went from 135 to 150kg although I had an injury for a few months because I fell on my tailbone.

Thanks for the advice. Reason I use straps is because I'm afraid to pull a bicep on over under grip, might look into it again though. Another option I had was to use hook grip but that hurts a lot for the benefits it gives.

I definitely have to lower my caloric intake a bit.
I think the injuries have to do with age as well, because my shoulders feel way better now.

A form check never hurts, I'll post one after the next time I deadlift.

[Steelex]

Just grab it double overhand like a man.

[ZeZay]

Okay so I was supposed to deadlift today but we had sprints at PE yesterday at school. My legs were really sore but since I wanted to stick to the program I did some lower weight deadlifts but with more reps and more sets. This is 120kg and I was on my last set of 3x9. Was pretty heavy not gonna lie, because I usually only do 1x5.

I know it's a bit harder to tell because I blur my face, I can send the real video via pm if it's hard to see. My lower back is straight but my shoulders sometimes go forward a little bit, I noticed. In my opinion it doesn't look that bad, or at least not bad enough to be injury provoking or preventing me from gaining strength. I could be wrong though.