[Beyond Borders]

We all know most of the basic body language corrections that make you come across as an assertive person, the small reads you can get off women, and how you can keep your body language congruent with your intentions.

Even relative game literature amateurs like me pick these gold nuggets over the years, and they should be common knowledge for most guys here.

However, I also like to think I’ve got somewhat of a knack for nonverbal dynamics just on an intuitive level – perhaps just from years of sleeping with and even having serious relationships with women who didn’t speak English. I’m a big fan of going with your gut when it comes to the things that are said without being said, and I do my best to communicate with my eyes, expressions, and gestures when I can.

And I've noticed there are a lot nonverbal things I do to establish or reiterate my dominance over a woman.

An example of what I mean is the age-old example of not leaning into women when you're sitting down and talking with them and instead leaning back in your chair, using power postures, etc.

I find myself doing this stuff in bolder ways as well. Let's see if I can pull a few examples out of my ass (you'll see I ended up pulling quite a few) - some apply to casual interactions and others to relationships.

CAVEAT: I'm not well-read on body language or non-verbal communication or anything. This is all just from my own personal observations. Maybe CleanSlate can drop some feedback here. Also keep in mind that I've been mostly in Asia for years now - a lot of this stuff I did back home too, but some things may not translate back to Western culture as well as others.

- When I'm walking with a girl I very rarely will let her hold my hand, though they’ll often try it anyway. Instead, I let her cling to my wrist or forearm when we're walking while my arm just does its usual thing. If she grabs my hand, I will let it go after a moment or even reach over to untangle our hands and place her hand on my forearm - or maybe offer her my elbow instead. If she's really persistent, you can put your hand in your pocket.

To me there are few things more revealing of the dynamic between a man and a woman than seeing them walking down the street and she's hanging on his arm but he's just walking normal as she's just clinging to his arm, hanging on for the ride. Even if I have to create this artificially (like in the example where I untangled our hands and replaced hers higher up on my arm), I think over time the dynamic solidifies subconsciously in her mind.

Sometimes if she's really invested, she'll go as far as to be wrapping her arm around me even while we walk, around my waist or shoulders, and I'm just cruising along without a care in the world, as if she might as well not even be there.

- This same dynamic applies to when you’re sitting down and a woman has her hand on your leg, instead of yours on hers, and your pretty much pretending not to notice. Or her head on your shoulder is another one. The important part is a lack of response to her public display of affection (though sometimes I’ll give her a little squeeze before returning to whatever I’m focused on).

- Similarly, showing a lack of reaction to a woman kissing you and hanging all over you in bed. I notice sometimes women will try to get affectionate while you're talking about something serious - it's their way of changing the subject. Ignore what she is doing and just go on talking. In any case, having her smacking all over you face and lips while you're sitting there with a stone cold look on your face makes you feel like a boss.

- Not all the things I do come from a place of apathy, though. For example, here's another very common non-verbal move I use very generously, and I really love this one because I can use it on women I meet in just about any environment, whether they're already invested in me or not. And it's a very simple one you all probably know.

The staring contest.

In my experience, girls are shit at staring contests, but for some reason they've convinced themselves they're good at it (or maybe they're used to weak-kneed guys buckling in front of them). They just don't have the mental frame for it or something, or they’re too easily distracted and quickly lose patience. But they really will give it their best shot.

It seems like a silly game, but we already know girls like silly games, and it's interesting how much you can exert your psychological dominance over a woman just through this silly bit of playtime. I don't honestly know if I've ever lost a staring contest with a woman unless she put her hand up in my face, made a crazy funny face, or did something else outrageous to cheat.

To me, even that is a sign of her defeat, and now my frame is strong enough that even these tactics cannot get me to budge.

For me I take these staring contests extremely serious. You should too. I mean, give me a break - if a woman can straight up stare you down, who has the upper hand between you? The answer is obvious. So in the spirit of that, here’s two tricks I leverage to always win.

One, is you should always just focus on one eye – don’t try to focus on both. I don’t ever try staring at their nose or between their eyes either because I feel that weakens my frame and makes me too self-conscious. Just hone in on the one eye so you have a very specific focal point and so you don't get distracted by the rest of her face.

Also, when I'm staring into a woman's eyes, whether I just met her or we are dating, I'm not just holding her gaze, I'm sending telepathic messages to her. Telling her all the dirty things I'm going to do to her. Telling her how I'm going to own her pussy and have her sucking my cock. Telling her how hard I’m going to bang her. Yes, I'm being serious about this.

I'm wearing a mellow poker face in this moment, but my energy gets extremely intense, at least internally, and whether or not she can feel the sexual energy I'm blasting her with, she can definitely feel that she is way out of her element. I don't think I can over-exaggerate too much how forceful my thoughts are in this moment.

Don't acknowledge it too much after she crumbles. Sometimes I'll say something cocky like, "I never lose," if they make a big deal of it, but for the most part you want to smirk it off and change the subject. You'll notice you can see the shift in her, the way she's looking at you a little bit different as if reassessing who she is dealing with. If it seems like I'm overstating this, feel free to contradict, but I really don't think I am - this stuff is powerful and more guys should try it when they meet girls in bars.

- Tickling someone is a no brainer one. On the flipside, it's a surprisingly strong display of psychological power to show you are unfazed by her tickling you. If you're really ticklish, you can teach yourself not to be. To a woman who squirms like a worm on a hook every time someone tickles her, it almost seems like a superpower that she has zero effect on you.

- Another non-verbal gesture that can draw women into your power is the simple trick of having them feed you something. Women don't place food in the mouth of just anyone - at least that's my intuition. So if a woman offers me a taste of something, I always make her put it in my mouth. With her fingers or with a spoon - I think the effect is the same. If she doesn’t offer, try just asking.

This extends into your mini relationships. You cannot deny the dominance on display, for example, that I'm lying back in bed right now typing this on my computer while this girl is sitting here placing peanuts in my mouth. Women who literally feed their men know their place.

- Here's one for women you haven't bedded yet. We all know the power of eye contact. One move I've perfected over the years is the prolonged bedroom eyes - for me, it stands in a category of its own from general eye contact discussions because it's not just about reading eye contact and understanding what it means - it's about forcing your eye contact upon someone.

What I mean by this are these instances where you just made a witty joke or maybe she did and you stare right into her eyes with half smirk on your face (not always) and hold it for an almost awkward length of time. Sometimes I'll just do this in deep conversation too.

I don't know if I can really describe what my eyes look like when I'm doing it, but I do know how it feels. Somehow it feels like my eyes are "twinkling," if that makes any sense. My expression softens a little, and I'm not just looking at her, I'm looking into her eyes, almost like I have some hidden power to see who she is if I look deep enough (even though that part is bullshit, it's what I think to myself in these moments).

There's a real sexual energy to it too, as if I know we're going to end up in bed together and in some kind of romance and as if we both know that. If you've ever shared a moment of sexual innuendo with a woman and exchanged that knowing look with a half smirk on your faces, you perhaps know the suggestive look I'm talking about, but the difference is I often do this when there is no innuendo present.

The only innuendo going on is in my head, and we could be talking about something completely non-sexual (as if we're having a verbal conversation and a separate non-verbal one) or not even talking at all.

Other times I try to imagine myself as the star in her romantic movie, so it’s more of a charming look than sexual one. Again, I can feel my eyes almost twinkling - that's the best way I can describe it. I guess you have to have some experience communicating with your eyes.

A lot of this sounds vague and dramatic, but my experience is women are extremely intuitive and great readers of non-verbal communication, so in most cases they pick up on exactly what is happening.

- When a woman goes to sit in a seat across the table from me, I'll often squint at her like she's being silly and simply pat the seat next to me with my hand. She might giggle or say nothing at all, but without fail, she gets up and moves to the seat beside me, often wrapping her arm around mine as I pick up the menu or whatever I'm doing.

I don't say anything - just pat the seat and she obeys. I feel like your silence is the real key to it and if you have to verbalize it than it loses some power. I mean, I don't really care if she sits next to me or not, so it's a sheer dominance move.

- Have you ever noticed how women you’re dating will ask you for a kiss when they're leaving? I don't like that. To me it feels like I'm a pet being made to do tricks.

Surely you remember the old move from the Mystery days where you are saying goodbye to a woman you just met and you point at your cheek and she kisses it. I still do that sometimes when I just meet, so I like that one, but I also use it all the time with girls I'm dating if they ask me for a kiss on the way out the door.

I just point at my cheek instead, or I just turn and offer my cheek, so instead of me leaning in for the kiss, I allow her to lean in and smooch me on the cheek. If you’re sitting down, make her come to you, even if that means leaning over.

It's funny how serious some of them will take a cheek peck in that little power shift moment, grabbing on to your face with both hands and really laying into you, maybe whispering in your ear.

- Another example is displaying your ability to focus on a task at hand even when she is physically trying to get your attention. For example, as I've been typing this, the girl laying here has done several things to try and get my attention - ranging from making comments about the TV show she's watching, to flicking a finger at my face, and laughing to fondling my dick, and I've managed to completely ignore her and just keep doing what I'm doing. That makes a statement to her about whose party this is.

I mean, on the one hand, perhaps you could say it shows some disrespect that I’m clearly busy and she's sitting here bothering me, but I honestly don't mind because it gives me a chance to reassert my frame and show that I can't be fazed. For me it's like a little game, and while I will sometimes look up from what I'm doing and remind a woman that I'm busy if she doesn't eventually stop (especially if working), it doesn't bother me too much in small doses.

I just try to remind myself that she’s only doing it because she’s so self-conscious about how I perceive her and hungry for my attention, and anyways, we all know some women are like kids in this way.

- Or maybe you’re not doing anything important, but you're watching TV or looking off into space, lost in thought, and she is trying to get your attention but you just keep doing what you're doing, not even bothering to look at her. After this goes on a while, turn to her and drop a little wink, and then go back to what you're doing. Just this whole idea of being able to focus specifically on something besides her really reasserts that you are the star in the room. In any given situation with two people, one person generally cares more about the thoughts in the other person's head - you want to be the one who cares less if you wish to stay in charge.

- Here's another one that I play around with. You ever notice how women always want to see if they can physically hurt you - through a pinch or a bite or pressing a sharp object into your arm? It's playful but I don't know what they get out of that - usually comes out of drunken moments and maybe they’ve been watching too much Mad Max, but for whatever reason I've noticed girls always do it early on in the relationship.

I like to just look at them unfazed, as if challenging them to really try to hurt me. Or sometimes I will even say, “Go ahead, do it harder.” And then when they still half ass it – “harder.”

They can have their finger on a pressure point or bite me as hard as they want and I don't even flinch (if it really hurts you, at least pretend). It seems silly but I really think this sends a dominance message to her when she sees how powerless she is to hurt you. Even more powerful is afterwards when you say "my turn" and reach over and give her the slightest pinch and she balls up like someone just touched her with a hot poker.

Even though you may not be stronger than other guys, reminding a woman how much stronger you are then her sends a very clear message about the dynamic between you. Wrestling around has a similar effect.

- Pinching her cheek when she says something cute or cheeky.

- Checking your messages in front of a woman holds a lot of power too. I almost hate to do it because we talk about how much we hate seeing women always on their phones, but I've noticed that if I check my Viber or texts in front of a chick, she gets this look of extreme insecurity on her face.

85% of the time she reaches over and picks up her own phone and starts looking at her own messages, but we all know that's what really going on is she's hiding in her phone out of insecurity.

I don’t really go out of my way to do this, but if a girl sends me a message while I’m out with another one, I don’t hesitate to check it and perhaps reply. I used to avoid looking at my phone when out to set a good example, but I guess I’ve developed a “beat them at their own game” approach at this point.

In any case, I'm putting this in the category of dominance displays because it's kind of a reminder to her that she is not the most important thing in your life and that your attention is not hers exclusively.

- Unapologetically checking out a woman's ass in front of a girl. I do try to use this a little sparingly because it can spoil a good night in some instances, but I don't shy away from it either. If I see a nice ass or a beautiful woman I will have my look. It's just a reminder that it's my right as a man to observe beauty when I see it. In the same category goes general flirting with other women in front of her.

- Picking something off a girl's face – like some food or whatever if she’s eating. I'm sure you've heard of the move of reaching over and brushing a girl's out of place hair behind her ear (you can fake it even if her hair is fine) - David Deangelo used to preach that as a lead up to a kiss in Double Your Dating I believe. There's a certain affection in fixing a woman's hair, like you're closer than you really are, I guess, but I think it goes a little deeper than that too.

For one, it sends the message that she "belongs" to you in a way and that she's yours to fix, in my opinion. Think about it for a sec...don't women always do this to their kids and husbands and other people who "belong" to them?

But it also sends the message that you recognize she is a flawed being that is in need of occasional fixing.

When you think of how most guys pedestalize you can see how powerful that thought is. You are displaying that she is not a perfect creature and that sometimes her rough edges need a little tidying up - right now, in fact. I think all of these same subconscious messages transfer over when it comes to cleaning something off of a woman's face.

Here's one way you can experiment with this. Like the hair brush move, you can fake it too, so next time you're talking to a beautiful woman, just tell her she has something on her forehead or nose or lip or whatever and watch the way her demeanor changes.

- One move I learned from Fisto's posts in the thread about his travels in SEA is the one of putting your fingers in a woman's armpit and then smelling your hand as if it stinks. I've been using that joke for years now and I never tire of doing it to the same girl over and over when we're out or when I feel like embarrassing her (all in good fun, of course). I often offer it to her to smell - or I'll offer it to her friends or a nearby stranger. It's a great piece of physical humor for fucking with a girl, and it establishes dominance in the sense that you're treating her like a kid sister.

- A legendary move you probably remember from your childhood is simply pointing at someone's chest with your finger and then when she looks down flicking your finger up into her face. that one is so old and so obvious that just the fact that she fell for it makes her seem like a naive little piece of silly putty in your hands.

- When a woman looks at you and you blatantly look down at her body and trail your eyes back up to meet hers again. Take your time. Make it blatantly obvious and then look her in the eyes and raise your brows, or even just act like nothing happened. Be sure you've got a strong sexual frame going if you want to try this one - obviously with the wrong girl done too soon it can backfire. On the other hand, if it's someone you're already sleeping with, you can just sit there and stare right at her vag in public (assuming no one will notice) and she'll get wet right there on the spot.

- I'm a big fan of winks. They're audacious. They're mischievous. They're tacky, and the fact that you even dare do one can work wonders in certain situations. I spread winks all over the place for all types of reasons - my favorite is the secret wink you send to a supposedly off-limits girl (taken or a friend/sister of your current chick's, etc) when no one is paying attention. Or winking at a woman who is acting nervous in your presence. Is this a dominance move? Maybe I'm wandering off topic, but the bold audacity of it feels like a power play to me. It's strange, but even such a small gesture creates a "moment" between you, even if you've never interacted before.

- Slapping a girl on the ass. This should probably be a woman you're already screwing, but it's a little show of playful public dominance that goes a long ways. Even better if you do it in front of others - the message is "it's my ass to slap."

- If a girl gets pouty about something and you just pick her up into your arms, at which point she falls apart laughing. Too try-hard? Not to me. It just shows I'm unwilling to play along with her drama. I'm above and beyond her displays of anger.

- I’m actually a big fan of picking women up in all kinds of scenarios – there are multiple times I've walked across the room to at a party to pick up a girl I wanted to be sitting next to me and carried her back to my side of the room. haha Pure cavemanning, and sometimes it scares them, but it often works.

- Also love picking them up when I’m scrogging them - women love to see your physical power. Besides the basic ones, try this sometime when you're eating a girl out. Hook your arms under her knees, picking her up, and eating her out with her back pressed to the wall from a full standing position. If she’s small enough and you’re strong enough, it’s a wild one, but don’t blame me if you throw your back out.

- A handshake can often be turned into a display of dominance too. I like to hold on to her hand after the handshake is already done. Just standing there still holding on to her hand while we’re talking. How much affection/suggestion you should lend the gesture may vary depending on the girl and the circumstances, but it's bold, and by not letting go of her hand and her not forcing you to, she is in a way submitting to your will. Some girls may find it "creepy" so it's up to you to gauge when to use it.

- Similar to this is when you grab a girls hand and pull her to you. I've usually done this in bars and clubs if I look over and see a girl I like. It’s as simple as leaning over and offering her your hand. She'll look at you unsure if you're trying for a handshake or what, and if you've already been exchanging flirty looks and she accepts it, you can probably get away with pulling her away from her table and group over to yours for a conversation (she's coming to you instead of the other way around). I’ll also do this if in a group where there’s a girl who I want to be sitting next to me who is not. Note: For many obvious reasons, I could see this one going really badly for a lot of guys. When I'm in my zone I can do it splendidly (as well as care less if it fails), but don't be surprised if it blows up on you.

- Or if a girl meets my eyes when walking by I'll take her hand and pull her to me (this actually works better in the West than in Asia). If it gets awkward, you can alleviate the tension by twirling her once for good measure.

- When a girl starts cleaning your room or house or doing your dishes or something, I find a powerful move in these instances is not to acknowledge what she is doing right away. Just continue with whatever has your attention at that moment and let her carry on – the message is that what she’s doing is not out of the ordinary but in fact expected. Of course, it’s okay to go drop a kiss and a thank you after she is done to reward her, but I feel there’s real power in silence and lack of initial acknowledgement as she goes about her business.

I’ve covered a lot of territory here and maybe even wandered off course, but what ways do you guys use non-verbal communication to solidify your dominance over a woman or draw her further into your sphere of influence?

I’d love some new ones to add to the arsenal.

[Sooth]

(01-06-2016 05:37 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

as I've been typing this, the girl laying here has done several things to try and get my attention - ranging from making comments about the TV show she's watching, to flicking a finger at my face, and laughing to fondling my dick, and I've managed to completely ignore her and just keep doing what I'm doing.

That's what you call a dedication to the forum!

[Beyond Borders]

^ Haha I eventually took a break, got a bj, and banged her out - then sent her to the 7/11 to grab me a Sprite.

It was a long post.

[WestIndianArchie]

Outstanding

[Dantes]

BB,

Best thread I have seen in awhile.

Do you notice any cultural differences from women (Asian vs western) in their responses to these nonverbal displays?

[Feldeinsamkeit]

Detailed and very informative post there, Beyond Borders. I'm sure that many of us on here can learn - or, at the very least be reminded - of things we should be doing when gaming women.

But I was wondering whether your advice about looking at a woman with a very charged sexual chemistry in your eyes would also be a useful gambit during the opening phase of a women in the bookstore, on the street, et.c. or whether it really only applies once a romantic interest has been established.

What's your take on this, may I ask?

By the way, I do sometimes get quite flirty eye contact with, especially, younger women on the street in the UK, but I haven't tried yet to use a particularly sexually-charged form of eye contact when opening sets but have been thinking about doing so lately.

[Beyond Borders]

(01-06-2016 06:42 AM)Dantes Wrote:  

BB,

Best thread I have seen in awhile.

Do you notice any cultural differences from women (Asian vs western) in their responses to these nonverbal displays?

My memory is a little jumbled as I haven't been back in a few years or more, but off the top of my head, I'd say that I find that Asian women pick up on these things easier - they're much better at reading nonverbal communication - and may play along a little faster to stuff that shows real submission (feeding you, hanging on to your arm instead of your hand, etc).

On the other hand, the bolder moves will tend to go over better in the West. Anything that puts an Asian woman on the spot publicly - like the ass slapping, pulling her to you in front of all her friends and the whole club, or picking her up in public - can be iffy, depending on the environment.

Having said that, I don't think there's anything I've mentioned here that I haven't done both in the West and the East at times, and with success.

Proceed with caution on the more extreme stuff, especially if you're in an environment you don't understand. I can be pretty audacious sometimes when I'm on a roll, and for whatever reason I usually get away with it, but I don't know if I would know how to properly communicate how to strike that vibe unless it's your style already.

[Beyond Borders]

(01-06-2016 06:43 AM)Feldeinsamkeit Wrote:  

But I was wondering whether your advice about looking at a woman with a very charged sexual chemistry in your eyes would also be a useful gambit during the opening phase of a women in the bookstore, on the street, et.c. or whether it really only applies once a romantic interest has been established.

What's your take on this, may I ask?

By the way, I do sometimes get quite flirty eye contact with, especially, younger women on the street in the UK, but I haven't tried yet to use a particularly sexually-charged form of eye contact when opening sets but have been thinking about doing so lately.

I use the general "knowing look" or "bedroom eyes" in the daytime in really casual interactions too.

I mean, don't get too intense about it or stare too long if you just met and are exchanging basic info, and if she doesn't seem impressed, it might be a good idea to back off. Even in a longer conversation where she's already invested, you still have to calibrate based on her reaction lest you make it awkward.

But to me this just falls in the "flirting" category - I just tend to often flirt with my eyes. I often hold a prolonged look with a smirk and love to make women blush if I can.

I guess the nature of the dominance in this situation is that I'm not the average guy she talks with - I'm expressing that I'm more confident, that I "know something," that I'm possibly more experienced, and that she's about to go on a more unusual, engaging ride than what she's used to. At the risk of overselling myself...I don't think a lot of guys have the self-awareness, confidence, and experience to use their eyes in quite this way, so I think the bold intensity just catches women off guard.

I will say I don't always have the confidence in a more causal situation, and hell, I remember buckling when women did this stuff to me in my teens and early 20s plenty of times.

The more engaged eye gazing occurrs in situations when you have more face-time (talking in a bar, on a date, etc). And this is the type of situation where I really come into my own and get a chance to do my thing. My ability to bond with people is really where I excel, but that can take a little time.

Also keep in mind I don't do much cold approaching. I just interact with and mess with people, flirt with women, etc, as I go about my day. If I meet someone and want their number, I do my best to ask for it, but I'm not going out of my way to deliberately create interactions with the opposite sex the way a lot of you guys are.

Given that I'm a more "strike when the iron is hot" kind of guy, you may find a more contrived interaction makes a difference in how something like this is recieved. In other words, if the attraction is already rolling along naturally, as it is when I start making a conscious effort to seduce someone, it likely has better results than if you're trying to create an attraction with a random person on the street.

Hope that makes sense.

[Beyond Borders]

Dupe.

[Stimulus]

Great post BB, going to save this one in my notes. Another reminder of how bodylanguage plays a huge part in how you present yourself and how one is able to 'dominate' the opposite sex by not saying a single word. In short, how you can (and should) use bodylanguage in a way it helps you getting what you want.

I've read and seen short YT clips about the 'grab her hand and pull' move but somehow I haven't had the balls to try this myself, though I really like the boldness it displays. Do you just 'pull it off' or try and gauge interest some more before using this move? And do you combine this with holding her hand just a little longer than normal when you've pulled her over?

[General Stalin]

I'm surprised by how many guys on here browse/post on the forum when they are with women. Not that it's weird that it's RVF and you are in the presence of a woman, but I just think it odd to be on a message board while having company.

I've seen a lot of posts where folks say something to the effect of having a naked girl in their bed or doing dishes or whatever while typing a post.

I get the whole idea of not letting a girl being around get in the way of your productivity or doing what you want to do etc. but I just think it odd to sit there pounding out a long winded forum post with company, especially a girl you are seeing who is vying for you attention.

Anyway, great post BB. I feel like non-verbal communication is one of the most difficult aspects of game/masculinity to master in general. Something that I feel really does come with age, wisdom, and life experience.

[Beyond Borders]

(01-06-2016 09:00 AM)Stimulus Wrote:  

I've read and seen short YT clips about the 'grab her hand and pull' move but somehow I haven't had the balls to try this myself, though I really like the boldness it displays. Do you just 'pull it off' or try and gauge interest some more before using this move?

As I mentioned before, I really fancy myself as someone who has learned to read people by looking at them, and this is especially the case when it comes to attraction. Part of that belief includes trying to really trust my instinct if I "notice" a woman "notice" me.

I think normally it comes down to if she's making eye contact as she passes by, but even if I can't pinpoint exactly how I know that girl is impressed by me, I tend to immediately give that read the benefit of the doubt.

Often I act on reflex right then in that moment, so if I reach out and grab a girl's hand as she's walking by, I probably haven't thought it through much. And as you can imagine, I'm talking about alcohol-fueled environments, so it helps that inhibitions are down.

Of course I don't always have the balls even then to act on my impulse, but when I do it tends to be those times when I'm on such a roll that I don't allow time to second guess.

This refers to catching a broad on a walk-by, so in that moment, she's likely on her own. I may very well be with a group having fun (even if I only just met them) so I'm already a standout, and since she's on the move I've only got a split second to act.

You may be able to catch her on a second or third pass if you want more time to judge or build her attraction, but it's usually best in such a scenario to just take action as soon as the impulse strikes (as usual, if you allow time to overthink it you'll probably fuck it up).

Grabbing her from her table or from her group is a bit of a different story. In those scenarios I tend to judge the interest more first.

Perhaps her and her friends have been giggling at me, we've raised a cheers or two back and forth, maybe exchanged a word even from across the gap between us, and in any case it's apparent to most in her group that I'm on her radar and she on mine.

If we're in a group somewhere but just not sitting together, I've most likely already made it clear I've got my eye on her.

So it's a bit of an "okay it's time to cut the bullshit" move at that point.

As you can imagine, there are no two situations the same in what I'm describing, nor can you expect every woman to respond the same, so it's a real think on your feet kind of move. All I know is that when it works it works wonders, and assuming you can maintain the lead consistently from there, it really brings her into "your world" when it does work.

Quote:

And do you combine this with holding her hand just a little longer than normal when you've pulled her over?

Sometimes I do, yes. Depends on how receptive she seems.

If she seems surprised yet eager to play along, holding on to her hand for a while while we're talking can jump the interaction ahead a few paces and skip a lot of the bullshit and set the stage for the entire night - this is especially true if I'm sitting there holding her hand in front of my friends and family because she's socially bending to your will in front of a group.

Yes, you read that right, I've done this shit in front of my family too. My mom especially gets a kick out of it if she has some drinks down.

She's one of favorite wings.

(01-06-2016 11:05 AM)General Stalin Wrote:  

I'm surprised by how many guys on here browse/post on the forum when they are with women. Not that it's weird that it's RVF and you are in the presence of a woman, but I just think it odd to be on a message board while having company.

I've seen a lot of posts where folks say something to the effect of having a naked girl in their bed or doing dishes or whatever while typing a post.

I get the whole idea of not letting a girl being around get in the way of your productivity or doing what you want to do etc. but I just think it odd to sit there pounding out a long winded forum post with company, especially a girl you are seeing who is vying for you attention.

I'm not sure how old you are, but perhaps it's a generational thing?

To offer some perspective, first of all, to me it's no different than reading a book, writing in my journal, or watching a movie with a girl present - assuming we're already acquainted with each other, I'm going to read whether she's there or not, so she better get used to it.

And it's not like I sat down with the intention to write a long post, but once I got in the groove I wasn't going to let her being there change my mind.

Secondly, it's not like I invited some random girl over and then proceeded to ignore her while I buried myself in the forum. I tend to develop mini relationships with women, and it's not uncommon for me to spend everyday with a girl that I'm seeing pretty fast coming out of the starting gate.

So this girl has been over just about every night and will try to milk the daytime away if she can; I usually have to send her home when I want some time to myself.

I don't mind that, to be honest, because it's a lot less of a headache than constantly chasing and juggling a bunch of girls. Meanwhile she's already acknowledged I have no intention to be faithful and accepts that (which makes her want to hover even more).

Anyhow, we'd been up all night and then slept the day away, and then after a bit of grub, I started playing around online.

If she's going to attach herself to my hip around the clock, she better get used to the fact that I'm just going to do the same things when she's here that I do when I'm alone. If she doesn't like it, she can get her ass up and go home - and it's not beyond me to send her that way if she wants to get grouchy or start complaining because I'm not paying her mind.

I guess I've played around on the forum after one-night stands with girls present too, but I think the common theme is I've usually already had sex with these women, either that night or the night before, so it's not like I'm sitting there fucking around online when a woman I'm still in the process of seducing is in my hotel or apartment. I could definitely see that being strange.

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Anyway, great post BB. I feel like non-verbal communication is one of the most difficult aspects of game/masculinity to master in general. Something that I feel really does come with age, wisdom, and life experience.

Agreed.

That's why there's no black and white answers on a lot of this stuff - navigating the terrain takes a lot of internalized experience.

Fun to think about, though.

[Beyond Borders]

Here's another couple examples that ocurred to me:

- To build on the staring contest one, another effective move is the improptu staredown.

Say a girl says something sassy to me or insults me in some way. I'll just pause and turn my head at her and just stare at her for a while with this blank look on my face as if I really disapprove. I'll just sit there for however long it takes for her to get all nervous and swipe a hand at my face or cover her eyes or holler for me to stop or whatever. Basically that means I'll sit there looking at her with my poker face as excrutiatingly long as I have to.

I do this with girls I've just met or girls I'm seeing (it's especially effective if they've already tried and failed miserably to win a staring contest with me).

Sometimes she'll jump on board and set her face in determination, falling into the more official "staring contest game."

If that happens, just follow the script I outlined above for breaking her down.

- Here's another thing I like to do.

Say you're hanging out with a casual girlfriend and she is suddenly getting pouty about something. Often I'll know exactly what she's getting pouty about, but I don't really feel like having a discussion about it, so I haven't bit yet.

Anyways, say we're standing up and about to walk out the door and she still hasn't wiped the disappointed look off her face. I'll turn to her and stop for a second with the serious look on my face, as if I'm going to stare her down for a sec.

She'll usually hold the pout but get this deer in the headlights look like I'm about to get mad at her or something. Then I'll raise my hand and give her the gentlest psuedo-slap on the face - it's not anything remotely close to a real slap so don't be an ass. I just lightly pat her face with the palm of my hand, mocking the action.

Then I put my hand on the back of her neck or head (I love holding women there when I kiss them or even sometimes when walking) and pull her towards me for a short but very intense kiss.

At that point, I say "smile" or "stop pouting" or "cheer up." Or I say nothing and we just walk out the door.

Generally that shifts her mood and it's playtime again.

If not, you should probably tell her it's time for her to go home, unless you feel like having the talk about whatever she wants to talk about. Honestly, even if I feel like talking about it I'd rather save it for later or it's like you let her pout you into a talk.

One more thing I'd like to add in case some of this seems kind of like being a bully.

Treating women this way and having it work requires balance.

You can't just be a bossy asshole playing with her emotions and constantly setting frame with her at every moment and never buying into her own "character"... or it becomes tedious for both of you. A lot of this is done playfully, for one, and the rest of our interactions are fun and playful as well. I do sweet things for her when it doesn't "cost me" anything to them, and I try to connnect on a deeper level; that's what makes it worth her sticking around and buying into it all.

I'm also a gentleman moreso than a lot of guys, especially players, might allow themselves to be.

I open doors for women. I will get up and give her my seat if she comes to meet me in a bar and there's not another one next to me. If I'm in a place like Thailand, I will sometimes drop the girl off at the front door before driving to the parking lot and dropping off the motorbike. I will walk her home or to her car or whatever in eaerly stages. Even grab a guy by the throat or tell him to piss off (only if peaceful attempts to neutralize him don't work) if he starts fucking around gets out of line, so I'm also a protector.

If I've met her friends and family, they most likely all love me.

So by getting on board with these old-fashioned dynamics, she also gets the upside of those kinds of dynamics and is treated like a lady in the manner that men used to treat women. You have to give to get, I suppose.

Here's some further explanation of the double-sided dynamic from another post where I was discussing the flipside to "dread game."

thread-52355...pid1173772

Quote:

Dread game doesn't work on its own. Ever. If you don't have a carrot at the end of your stick, your relationship is just an emotional roller coaster ride with no shits and giggles, and no woman wants that. You just become a man that can't be relied on and who is no fun, and she loses her faith in you because there's just no upside to the whole thing. Sorry, no woman puts up with all this for just anyone.

So, if you're just average Joe who brings nothing special to the table, what does she give a shit if you leave?

Quote:

It's the dichotomy between these two states that lends a disappearing act it's real potency.

So the flip side of the dread game is meanwhile I'm inside her mind and emotions. I inspire her to be more. Make her think more. I make passionate love to her and get deep inside her head - I value her as a person. I tell her where we're going and why. And yes, I often let her make the decisions because you're right that this is something good leaders do (not to mention I could really give a shit about the small things most of the time).

Quote:

Other guys have money. Many have way more game. Some are the coolest guys in the club. Or far better looking. But for me I just have a layered personality and the ability to engage with people on a deep, deep level once I decide they're worth the time.

So, what you've got is the situation where there's this amazing guy in her life who constantly surprises her, and he treats her Damn good and keeps life fun and interesting and will knock some idiot out if shit goes down, so he's security too...and suddenly he's willing to just turn and walk away on the drop of a dime just because she was acting like an idiot.

The fear that puts in a woman to know she could lose the greatest thing in her life, and all because of her own actions or her own ungratefulness or taking you for granted...well, that's greater than any false dread you could hope to create. After a while she learns not too rock the boat because it just isn't fucking worth it.

I mean, none of this necessarily has to apply with the shorter-term stuff, but if the flipside is important to keep in mind if you're using this stuff to set frame in a relationship.

If you just set frame constantly without reward you just become an overbearing asshole.

[Amigoish]

Very insightful BB. I will start implementing some of those in my arsenal.

[CleanSlate]

Posts about body language like this are fantastic. Not only does this help you understand how to read people, but it also demonstrates how to take command of your own body language to send the nonverbal messages you want to send.

(01-06-2016 05:37 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

- When I'm walking with a girl I very rarely will let her hold my hand, though they’ll often try it anyway. Instead, I let her cling to my wrist or forearm when we're walking while my arm just does its usual thing.

...
To me there are few things more revealing of the dynamic between a man and a woman than seeing them walking down the street and she's hanging on his arm but he's just walking normal as she's just clinging to his arm, hanging on for the ride.

...
- This same dynamic applies to when you’re sitting down and a woman has her hand on your leg, instead of yours on hers, and your pretty much pretending not to notice. Or her head on your shoulder is another one. The important part is a lack of response to her public display of affection

...
- Similarly, showing a lack of reaction to a woman kissing you and hanging all over you in bed.

A common theme in these snippets above is to sit back and not react when she is showing affection. This is interesting to me from a game/LTR perspective. When I watch couples go about their day, I've also observed that the person who shows less affection usually is the one who has more power in their relationship.

When I was younger and totally unaware of game, I used to wonder why some men would not return their women's affection. I'd watch women stroking, kissing, and leaning into their men, while these men would just sit back with a bored expression on their faces.

I used to think, "why isn't he hugging and kissing her back? He has a hot girl all over him!" Now I understand what these men were doing.

In one extreme example, I was walking on a bridge that looked over an outdoor restaurant with tables by the waterfront. I saw a middle aged woman holding her man's dick (fully clothed) with one hand. In public and in broad daylight! I couldn't believe what I was seeing. And yes, the man was completely aloof like it was nothing.

On the other hand, when I see a man holding hands, kissing, and hugging his girl with his puppy dog eyes, I could see the girl appreciating the affection while not returning it with the same level of intensity.

When you pick up these patterns in body language within relationship dynamics, it isn't a stretch to figure out who holds the real power in the relationship.

(01-06-2016 05:37 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

The staring contest.

...
Also, when I'm staring into a woman's eyes, whether I just met her or we are dating, I'm not just holding her gaze, I'm sending telepathic messages to her. Telling her all the dirty things I'm going to do to her. Telling her how I'm going to own her pussy and have her sucking my cock. Telling her how hard I’m going to bang her. Yes, I'm being serious about this.

Enjoying these staring contests with them pinays, aren't we? It just tickles me every time pinays tells me they're really "shy", yet they are the most brazen with their staring contests I've ever seen.

I'll say this. This is not for the faint of heart because it takes serious inner game. If you're looking away first and losing more staring contests than you'd like to admit, your inner game needs work.

Then this is the next level of inner game: thinking dirty thoughts like guiding her head as she deepthroats you or bending her over on a table to smash her from behind while holding her gaze and keeping a poker face.

An effective way to transmit sexual messages non-verbally through staring is to angle your head down a bit, so your eyes will be slightly above your vision level. To visualize this, imagine a horizontal line across your field of vision parallel to the ground. Then slightly lower your head and look up about 20 degrees above that "imaginary" line.

Don't hold your head high with your nose up and stare "down" at her - that's a "haughty" stare. Not a sexual stare.

For example...

   

   

The first look is the one you want to use. See how he's angling his head down and looking up about 20-30 degrees above the horizontal center line of his vision.

The second one fails to send a sexual message because he appears to "look down" on the person he's looking at. His eyes are looking just below his imaginary horizontal line of vision.

Hence, why do you think Tom Cruise is so popular with the girls?

This is an art that is difficult to get down. You want to practice in the mirror until you get it right.

BB, as for you though, you've probably already gotten this down pat if you're soaking girls' panties with your stare.

(01-06-2016 05:37 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

- Tickling someone is a no brainer one. On the flipside, it's a surprisingly strong display of psychological power to show you are unfazed by her tickling you. If you're really ticklish, you can teach yourself not to be. To a woman who squirms like a worm on a hook every time someone tickles her, it almost seems like a superpower that she has zero effect on you.

Damn. I'm hopelessly ticklish.

(01-06-2016 05:37 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

- Another non-verbal gesture that can draw women into your power is the simple trick of having them feed you something.

Nice. I didn't even think about this.

(01-06-2016 05:37 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

A lot of this sounds vague and dramatic, but my experience is women are extremely intuitive and great readers of non-verbal communication, so in most cases they pick up on exactly what is happening.

Definitely.

The funny thing is although Asians seem bland and expressionless on the surface, they are very in tune with nonverbal communication, much more so than Anglophones. There tends to be a LOT more that goes on between myself and an Asian chick without speaking, than with an Anglophone chick.

(01-06-2016 05:37 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

- When a woman goes to sit in a seat across the table from me, I'll often squint at her like she's being silly and simply pat the seat next to me with my hand.

Yeah, I don't even say "come sit with me" or "want to sit here?" I simply assume, as you do, so there's really no need to verbalize it. In fact, as you say, verbalizing it takes away the power. Why? Because if you feel the need to verbalize it, it shows that you don't believe your nonverbal communication is strong or dominant enough. Powerful inner game stuff.

(01-06-2016 05:37 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

I just point at my cheek instead, or I just turn and offer my cheek, so instead of me leaning in for the kiss, I allow her to lean in and smooch me on the cheek. If you’re sitting down, make her come to you, even if that means leaning over.

Nice. Or, I like to put my hand on the small of her back, bring her to me, and show her my cheek with an expectant look. Usually she picks up on it and kisses me on the cheek. If not, I give her a brief "hello?" look, turn my head away again, point to my cheek with my other hand. Works every time.

(01-06-2016 05:37 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

- Pinching her cheek when she says something cute or cheeky.

I do that too. But pinays like to pinch my nose when I say something funny or whatever. I don't understand it, but apparently it's an Asian thing. One girl liked to pet my nose. Weird but okay...

(01-06-2016 05:37 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

- Checking your messages in front of a woman holds a lot of power too. I almost hate to do it because we talk about how much we hate seeing women always on their phones, but I've noticed that if I check my Viber or texts in front of a chick, she gets this look of extreme insecurity on her face.

That's a bit tricky, I can imagine. Do you shield your phone from her line of eye sight so she doesn't actually see the messages between you and another girl? I wouldn't want her to see messages like "I miss you baby" or "are we still meeting tomorrow? I'll bring my change of clothes so I can sleep with you". So I'm curious about what is it that you do exactly.

(01-06-2016 05:37 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

- Unapologetically checking out a woman's ass in front of a girl. I do try to use this a little sparingly because it can spoil a good night in some instances, but I don't shy away from it either.

I try to be discreet with this. But when she catches me doing it, it really doesn't go over well.

(01-06-2016 05:37 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

- Picking something off a girl's face – like some food or whatever if she’s eating. I'm sure you've heard of the move of reaching over and brushing a girl's out of place hair behind her ear

A variation of this is leaning in and pretending to pick some piece of lint off her shoulder or neck, and when I flick the imaginary lint away, I catch her eyes. We're less than 12 inches apart. I hold the eye contact. I slow my breathing while burning through her gaze... when she looks away first, invariably blushing, I lean back. She's getting primed.

(01-06-2016 05:37 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

- A legendary move you probably remember from your childhood is simply pointing at someone's chest with your finger and then when she looks down flicking your finger up into her face. that one is so old and so obvious that just the fact that she fell for it makes her seem like a naive little piece of silly putty in your hands.

I love this one. My own personal variation is saying "hey look at that", pointing in the opposite direction from me. When she turns her head to look, I hold my finger right next to her cheek and wait until she turns her head back to me. When she does, her cheek meets my finger. "Gotcha!" I laugh loudly. She playfully hits me.

Then she'd bide her time and pull the same stunt on me. Fun times. It's all about being playful sometimes.

(01-06-2016 05:37 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

- When a woman looks at you and you blatantly look down at her body and trail your eyes back up to meet hers again. Take your time. Make it blatantly obvious.

...
- Slapping a girl on the ass. This should probably be a woman you're already screwing, but it's a little show of playful public dominance that goes a long ways. Even better if you do it in front of others - the message is "it's my ass to slap."

I'm a fan of these. I like to wink, also.

One time I got a very nasty look when I was walking out of Target and checked this woman out. She was walking by and I looked her up and down slowly, taking it all in real good. She gave me this look that said "oh my god you disgusting pig!"

Some women won't appreciate it, especially if they aren't attracted to you. Who cares, though. Other women will appreciate it.

Since I'm an ass man, the ass slapping is an afterthought to me.

(01-06-2016 05:37 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

I’ve covered a lot of territory here and maybe even wandered off course, but what ways do you guys use non-verbal communication to solidify your dominance over a woman or draw her further into your sphere of influence?

I’d love some new ones to add to the arsenal.

There are some things I do, but it's hard to verbalize. I don't know if it applies to most of you, but it could work when there's a language barrier and you're using google translate.

Most of all, I try to invite them into my personal space under the (non)pretense of helping me understand what they're saying. I read lips, and sometimes use pen and pad when necessary, so when I'm into this woman and she's not moving away from me, I start by opening my arms and torso to be more inviting. I don't pull her in yet.

When I ask her to write/type something down because I didn't understand what she said, I give her a pen and pad, or my phone, for her to jot what she said down. While she's doing this, I look over her shoulder and read what she's typing. Usually when she's halfway through typing it, I could figure the whole thing out, giving me time to think of the next thing to say or what my next move will be.

During this time, she's standing real close to me, close enough I could smell her, and I put my hand on the small of her back. When she gives my phone back, I type in my response. While I'm typing my response, I watch what she does out of the corner of my eye. Does she stand close to me and look over my arm to see what I'm typing? (Good) Or does she look around at other people, seemingly to be overly patient or under-interested in my response? (Bad).

If I'm seeing good signs here like the one above, then she's entered into my reality and it's much easier for me to assert myself and lead our interaction where I want it to go.

My 2 cents.

[CleanSlate]

Another thing.

Even if you fuck up with these non-verbal communication strategies and someone gets upset, don't apologize because you didn't actually say anything hurtful. You can apologize non-verbally, by seeming to back down with your body language or looking down or away. Rather than doing this, if someone says something or gets aggravated, I'll lift my arms up halfway, palms outward, saying "hey, it's cool... not looking for any trouble." This is really more for defusing potential fights with other dudes, but it's an example of a soft "it's cool" apology that preserves your dominance without truly apologizing. Not sure if it makes sense, but just wanted to add this thought.

[redbeard]

[Vincent Chase]

(01-06-2016 06:06 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

^ Haha I eventually took a break, got a bj, and banged her out - then sent her to the 7/11 to grab me a Sprite.

It was a long post.

No doubt you'll be hard pressed to meet a girl like that in the West, this is I've also dated dozens of Asians in the last few years, they can genuinely be really sweet, incredible isn't it. That said the last Asian I saw only a week ago was westernised (born in UK) and it felt like some kind of alpha female dominatrix. Amazing how the environment influences people, particularly women.

Great post.

[262]

^^^
BB's example blows my mind, even here in Poland. Don't get me wrong, Polish girls are nice, but I think you'd have to be injured or sick for one to go to the store for you.

Meanwhile, in the West, if you're sick and you tell your girl that your mom made you soup when you were, she'll throw your phone at you and tell you to call your mom (h/t to Rollo Tomassi at TheRationalMale.com):

[Beyond Borders]

^ Guys always make those comments when I post about game because of where I currently live. That's one reason I rarely bother posting specifically about women (until recently), and it's the reason I always make it a point to give examples from both sides of the world.

But when I lived in the West, my dynamics with relationships were very similar. Yes, American girls, running to the store, giving me daily bjs, coming over to clean, spending money on me, cooking up a storm for me and friends, and on and on. I mean, I don't come from the city, so take that into account, but in my experience this stuff is still pretty Damn effective in the states.

That part about girls in the West treating you that way when you're sick, on the other hand...I mean, I know you're over exaggerating, but I don't even know what to say to that, man. I feel like we're from another planet when I read that kind of thing....

For example, let's ask someone like Gio (a guy with a lot more game than me, by the way) how HIS birds treat him when he's sick. Because I highly doubt he'd agree with that sentiment.

Every American girl I've ever dated went to extreme lengths to care for me when sick. Even some fuck buddies and "just friends" went pretty far to help at times.

In case you still don't want to believe me, here's one example of a big tittied blonde ex back home. When I first left the states, I called her from Seattle to say goodbye. We'd been broken up for a year, I believe, but she was still stuck on me. Girl was a personal trainer on the side and very beautiful.

Instead of just saying bye, she insisted on coming to see me and paid for my flight to be changed and a room so I would wait. Then she flew up to see me and we hung out for a few days, checking out the city and fucking our brains out.

It didn't stop there. She then booked a ticket to come see me for a full month in southeast Asia - without asking first (remember, we're long broken up at this point). While in southeast Asia, I was broke, but she wanted to have fun and kept dragging me out to shit, even paid me to join in getting our first couple scuba certs.

I mean, keep in mind that I was balling back in the day when we dated and used to always foot the bill, so she was able to pass that off as "repaying the favor," but still...When we were together she was very old fashioned, always cooking and cleaning and doing little favors. Real sweetheart that one.

Look, I'm not relaying this to brag, but personally, I think what you've presented above is a very biased view of western women, and passing this stuff off as just an Asian thing really comes across as massive scapegoating to me.

Is it more common for Asian girls to do this stuff? Of course. But there are men in the West who still get treated Damn good by women. If you're not one of them, you can leave if you like or you can rise to the challenge and become one.

Brushing aside my experiences as just being owed to my location, especially when I already discussed that aspect, is not the answer.

I grew up in trailer parks. Me and my buddies were the poorest around growing up. But I remember the suavest of us all had rich broads driving us around because we couldn't afford our own cars. I remember a dude I lived with, a guy covered in tats, total deadbeat, with five babies running around and he's still got hoes taking him to dinner. An old buddy who gave his broad genital warts from an affair, and the whole town knew it, and she still took him back.

Hell, I remember seeing black guys have their girls sit around giving them manicures, for chrissake (and I imagine that was just the icing)...I could go on all day.

We've got, I presumed, some of the best players in the world on this forum, and you're telling me you can't fathom nutting in a girl's mouth and sending her to the store for a cold soda while you get some "work" done?

Seriously? Common street hustlers on welfare do this sort of thing.

[262]

^^^
Nah, I didn't mean to say it was just your location. That's like saying you don't need Game in Southeast Asia, which in my mind seems silly.

My point was simply more like when you said: "Is it more common for Asian girls to do this stuff? Of course."

[Beyond Borders]

^ Okay, well, if I overreacted, my bad, but your comment about being sick really pushed it there for me and made it seem like that's what you were saying.

[WeekendCasanova]

(01-17-2016 07:10 AM)262 Wrote:  

^^^
Nah, I didn't mean to say it was just your location. That's like saying you don't need Game in Southeast Asia, which in my mind seems silly.

My point was simply more like when you said: "Is it more common for Asian girls to do this stuff? Of course."

I honestly think it's more dependent on your game. I've never NOT had a girl I was seeing try to care for me when I was sick. I've had girls drive across town to bring me some damn chicken noodle soup!

I think unless you're completely submissive in the Western world, your girl will try to care for you. And if you're hell bent on dating a feminist who refuses to care for you, then that's your prerogative.

Asian girls might do it in either case, I'm not sure.

[Beyond Borders]

Exactly. If I was dating a white girl and she didn't take care of me when I was sick, that would blow my mind and be the end of the relationship. That statement really caught me off guard.

[cascadecombo]

Nearly all of the stuff you have listed are things I already do. Was great to hear others use it and why they find it sucfessful.

Especially the picking girls up part. Almost anytime I meet a new girl and take a liking to her I pick her up in the and lift her into the air. If not that have them sit on my arm as I raise them to shoulder heightish on my bicep. Nearly all of them tell me later how much they enjoyed being picked up.

For keeping them holding onto your arm vs holding their hand. I had never given it much thought as to which I prefered. Sometimes I outstretch my hand to them, others stick out my elbow. I'll try to keep them hanging on my arm as you suggested.

Also always been a fan of pointing to the cheek. I don't think I've ever really had a girl shy away from that either.