[jariel]

(03-25-2016 03:35 PM)churros Wrote:  

I find myself in a similar situation to the OP. Before I begin, I must express my admiration for threads like this.

My primary LTR has lasted four years. In this time, I have been getting strange on the side, as we often live in different countries. But now we are approaching late twenties, and she wants to take the next step. I would agree in principle, because our existing arrangement works. But the problem is: she wants children in the future.

I spent a lot of time looking over Kaotic’s post and comparing our situation. Many of these red flags aren’t shared. Suffice to say, she won’t be happy if the strange is found out. But otherwise, she is educated, motivated, and comes from a stable family. Being with her would make my life easier.

But taking this path would undermine my independence. I also can’t picture myself ever being happy with a child, even if she were to stay at home. On the other hand, perhaps this is just token resistance that everyone experiences before taking the plunge. And there are good reasons to stick around.

What do you guys think?

Most of your reasons for wanting to be in the relationship are selfish.

Whoever this girl is, you don't love her.

Men need to stop bullshitting themselves that during the dating stage it's cool to be in a so-called relationship with a woman, yet still have sex with other women, and then just flip a switch when it's time to "get serious".

Bottom line, if you did love her, you wouldn't be fucking other women.

There's a line in the movie Boomerang, Hallie Berry tells Eddie Murphy, "Love should have brought your ass home last night."

That's how the game goes when you love someone. You self-police. She does the same. Anything outside of that is just motherfuckers being selfish.

I would end it before it gets too deep, you're not really ready to marry her, so automatically, you're not ready to be having children with her, in my book, the former is the chicken, while the latter is the egg.

Look, at some point, dudes are going to have get their grown man on and start looking at these issues with a more mature mindset, some of the stuff that men pick up while learning "game" and allow it to dictate how they operate is just infantilizing.

[kaotic]

I knew Jariel would be coming in here and dropping truth.

Always impressed.

I see it as stages

Virgin> Newbie> Horrible Game> Discovers Game> Improves> LTR's/Minit LTR's> Breaks Up/Stops Wasting Time> Moves to Life Goals> MAYBE has Children

Or Simply:

Virgin>Game>Grown Man Decade

[jariel]

Long-distance relationships are vehicles for men who want a "steady girlfriend" without being required to commit to the relationship and the buffer zone that affords them the opportunity to be players in secret.

[262]

^ My first thought on reading the above was, "why?"

But then I realized an LDR might be a good Beta-cover if you need it - such as if you work/live in a PC environment.

[kaotic]

My LTR was barely 40 minutes away and saw her twice a week, I see the fallacy in that.

Let alone being in another country, I'd of ended it before I left the country.

[Onto]

(03-25-2016 03:35 PM)churros Wrote:  

But taking this path would undermine my independence. I also can’t picture myself ever being happy with a child, even if she were to stay at home. On the other hand, perhaps this is just token resistance that everyone experiences before taking the plunge. And there are good reasons to stick around.

What do you guys think?

You should only get married when you can say to yourself, "I wouldn't want to go through the rest of my life without her by my side."

[PartManPartMonkey]

churros: Beyond the points already mentioned is this fact: she wants children and you don't. Not only don't you want children, you'd be unhappy with them. It is selfish to string along this girl if you know you will never give her kids. Especially since she is late 20's.

[General Stalin]

Stop wasting this poor girl's time. She only has so long to start a family, and if it's not gonna be you, don't waste anymore of her fertile years.

[262]

^ I wouldn't frame it like that.

If you're going to end it, end it because you're wasting YOUR time, not hers.

Most women have no qualms when the situation is reversed: http://www.rooshv.com/women-are-experts-...-mens-time

[PartManPartMonkey]

^^ So because women generally waste men's time churros should waste this one woman's time? That is a fine example of moral relativism and rationalization. Not everything in life revolves around us and our feelings and wants. When you've been in a 4 year relationship with a person you presumably care about and you say has many fine qualities and you know wants to start a family, your advice that churros should think only of himself because women generally behave in a certain way is a bad look.

[262]

^


Edit: By the way, I don't fault women when they waste men's time, either. As is common knowledge around here, it's up to the man not to let the women waste his time. And thus vice versa.

[BoiBoi]

(02-03-2016 12:46 PM)General Stalin Wrote:  

One of the biggest hurdles I see in trying to dissolve multi-year LTRs is putting the history behind you. After having been through so much together, and dedicating so much of your time, effort, and resources with someone and getting tied into their life and family most dudes find it incredibly difficult to put that down and move on. After all of that time and effort most dudes would rather try and "fix" it than throw it away.

In business theory, this is well-researched and called the fallacy of sunk costs. Sunk costs are costs that already have incurred and are cannot be recovered. Your investment won't bear fruits no matter what and hence you should refrain from putting more money into it hoping that your luck will change. It won't.

Imagine you went to the cinema. You payed 15 U$ for the ticket and halfway through, you think to yourself: This movies sucks ass. Yet, you won't leave because you just payed 15 bucks. In the end, you wasted the 15 U$ plus the additional hour. Not very rational, is it? Sunk cost right there.

Same with relationships. Just because you have been together for a couple of years, you don't have to sit through the entire thing until the closing credits. If the movie is shit, just leave man.

I've been in the same spot not too long ago. I was struggling to cut ties with a girl, although I knew that I should. Luckily, you guys and particularly Jariel, helped me to stay on course.

It's tough to make the decision and say good-bye for good, but in the end, you'll be better off alone than in a shitty relationship.

[Onto]

(03-26-2016 07:29 AM)BoiBoi Wrote:  

Same with relationships. Just because you have been together for a couple of years, you don't have to sit through the entire thing until the closing credits. If the movie is shit, just leave man.

There's a saying, "The things about a person we fall in love with are the very things we loath about them later on...and try to change"

This makes it hard.

[kaotic]

Guys it's not that complicated.

You sit her down, tell her both your situations, how it's not the same path, it's not going to work out, and it's only fair to both of you to end things.

That's it, that's all.

I didn't want to waste my time, nor hers.

It's mature, simple, and you can move on with your life.

It's exactly what I did - it was a very maturing experience and this entire thread humbled me.

[churros]

I’ve come to a decision about this.

Jariel I thought long and hard about your post. I don’t agree that love involves total commitment. For men that is not natural – for centuries, gentlemen have had mistresses and concubines. In France, it is practically expected.

Can you love someone, and still indulge occasionally? Yes. Ultimately as men we decide what “love” is for ourselves. It smacks a little of the blue pill to talk about love as an absolute. There are no absolutes in this world.

Are LDRs a buffer zone for covert players? Maybe. But we are all shaping our life to suit our needs. I have compromised to raise a child though I did not originally envisage it. She will bring it to her family a few months of the year abroad, so it can work.

Another point – marriage has long been a political institution. Nietzsche says don’t look for the same things in a wife and mistress. Marriage for me is a political step forward, as it is for her. In my workplace, older single men can be viewed with suspicion. In this sense, marriage is good “cover” – we all have our private and public faces.

But that’s not why I’m doing this. I enjoy living with this girl. It allows me to focus on work, when I don’t have time for gaming broads. That’s what my life looks like now. But for a couple weeks of the year, I need to get out and do my thing. I think that’s okay.

I'm being open and honest here. If anyone really thinks this is the wrong decision, I'm still listening.

[General Stalin]

So your decision is to, as you put it, "take the plunge" with this girl? Have a kid and live with her and baby in tow while you globe trot?

When a family is involved, commitment and absolutes are indeed relevant. You need to be a father to your children and you need to be present. Single parent homes are not a healthy environment to raise kids plain and simple.

Also, as much as you may want to rationalize it away, the idea of men having mistresses is simply not acceptable in like 95% of the developed world.This isn't the dark ages. If you're caught fucking around that will surely be a violation of your marriage contract (assuming you get married to the mother of your future children) and will only cause strife in your family. Not saying don't do it, but consider your actions.

If you are going to submit to this woman's desires to settle down and start a family, then you need to be committed to this woman as she will be your life partner and mother of your children.

[kaotic]

Thought I'd give a quick update.

Things have been going well, I'm banging girls and plates just fine.

I find myself a bit lacking in the enjoyment/quality department, occasionally I'll miss having a girl constantly around.

Maybe I just see women for what they really are, maybe I'm just too deprogrammed and unplugged now.

"Relationships are heaven and hell, and sometimes riding solo can be purgatory." WIA conversation with me pops into my head.

I was bored scrolling through IG last night and was review my photos, I saw a photo of a hockey game tagged, and I didn't recognize the name.

I click it....turns out it's my ex LTR with she had changed her name. Which linked to her FB with photos of her and her new man. She looks pretty happy and stoked.

I cringed a bit, but immediately thoughts of the negativity and why broke up came into my head. Reminders of why she wouldn't be a good LTR, mom, wife, etc.

Waking up this morning I felt better, I even went into work late.

Maybe it's spring fever, who the fuck knows, I just know I'm not stupid enough to fall into emotions of the past like that ever again.

Once I hopefully get my bike this coming weekend all these worries will be behind.

[Kaii]

(05-10-2016 02:11 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

Thought I'd give a quick update.

Things have been going well, I'm banging girls and plates just fine.

I find myself a bit lacking in the enjoyment/quality department, occasionally I'll miss having a girl constantly around.

Maybe I just see women for what they really are, maybe I'm just too deprogrammed and unplugged now.

"Relationships are heaven and hell, and sometimes riding solo can be purgatory." WIA conversation with me pops into my head.

I was bored scrolling through IG last night and was review my photos, I saw a photo of a hockey game tagged, and I didn't recognize the name.

I click it....turns out it's my ex LTR with she had changed her name. Which linked to her FB with photos of her and her new man. She looks pretty happy and stoked.

I cringed a bit, but immediately thoughts of the negativity and why broke up came into my head. Reminders of why she wouldn't be a good LTR, mom, wife, etc.

Waking up this morning I felt better, I even went into work late.

Maybe it's spring fever, who the fuck knows, I just know I'm not stupid enough to fall into emotions of the past like that ever again.

Once I hopefully get my bike this coming weekend all these worries will be behind.

Thanks for the update. Feelings sometimes bubble to the surface, it's ok to acknowledge them and move on. You are doing well, keep at it my friend.

[Investment Bro]

I'm not a fan of resurrecting dead threads but the amount of wisdom contained in only 4 pages here makes it inexcusable to let this stay hidden.

I had much the same situation, albeit before I discovered this forum. The timelines described here and my own are nearly side by side.

Kaotic, now that almost two years have passed can you update on how you're feeling now/how things have gone and how your life has changed? Men who have just gone through breakups or are just about to need to know there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

[xmlenigma]

(03-25-2016 05:09 PM)jariel Wrote:  

(03-25-2016 03:35 PM)churros Wrote:  

I find myself in a similar situation to the OP. Before I begin, I must express my admiration for threads like this.

My primary LTR has lasted four years. In this time, I have been getting strange on the side, as we often live in different countries. But now we are approaching late twenties, and she wants to take the next step. I would agree in principle, because our existing arrangement works. But the problem is: she wants children in the future.

I spent a lot of time looking over Kaotic’s post and comparing our situation. Many of these red flags aren’t shared. Suffice to say, she won’t be happy if the strange is found out. But otherwise, she is educated, motivated, and comes from a stable family. Being with her would make my life easier.

But taking this path would undermine my independence. I also can’t picture myself ever being happy with a child, even if she were to stay at home. On the other hand, perhaps this is just token resistance that everyone experiences before taking the plunge. And there are good reasons to stick around.

What do you guys think?

Most of your reasons for wanting to be in the relationship are selfish.

Whoever this girl is, you don't love her.

Men need to stop bullshitting themselves that during the dating stage it's cool to be in a so-called relationship with a woman, yet still have sex with other women, and then just flip a switch when it's time to "get serious".

Bottom line, if you did love her, you wouldn't be fucking other women.

There's a line in the movie Boomerang, Hallie Berry tells Eddie Murphy, "Love should have brought your ass home last night."

That's how the game goes when you love someone. You self-police. She does the same. Anything outside of that is just motherfuckers being selfish.

I would end it before it gets too deep, you're not really ready to marry her, so automatically, you're not ready to be having children with her, in my book, the former is the chicken, while the latter is the egg.

Look, at some point, dudes are going to have get their grown man on and start looking at these issues with a more mature mindset, some of the stuff that men pick up while learning "game" and allow it to dictate how they operate is just infantilizing.

Thats a movie. And if tables were turned how easily does a woman find new men these days?
How easily does she CHEAT on you because her EMOTIONS and FEELINGS were RULING HER and with ALCOHOL/ WEED?

That LOVE is there, but that TRUST belonged to OLD SCHOOL, these days ATTENTION and DISTRACTION is how people ROLL.

How quickly did she fall for another guy? We should check with Kaotic?

A friend shared this wisdom for me way back..

Women get emotional fast and for everything.. They have a BIG STOCK OF IT. They can get emotional about a doll, a bag, a cute dress etc etc. How many men get "emotional" about an outfit or a shoe? Women do.. they are tuned that way..
Women get side SEX/ CHEAT based on Emotion ..seeking some emotion.
A woman cannot just be physical.. their emotions get entangled and loyalities get mixed up.
For a woman.. how she looks and feels for you has CHANGED completely..
Unlimited Emotional stock and spreadability.

Men dont get emotional fast and for everything. They have a SMALLER STOCK OF IT.
They cant emotional easy, but when they do, its HARDER and DEEPER.
Men cheat / get SIDE SEX just for fun/ Variety.
They could truly feel love & care for a PRIMARY while going through a side girl without getting their emotions and loyalties formed towards new girl.
For a man how much he cares for a woman will not change due to side sex..
WHY?
Limited stock and spreadability.

[Spartacus]

stay...

[MMM]

OP mentioned one of the issues was that they only saw each other twice, at best 3 times a week. That's about as often as I see my girlfriend. We're both busy people with obligations.  Like OP, we're also 40 minutes apart.

Generally, we'll see each other during the weekend and one day during the week.  However, we speak on the phone quite frequently, at least 3 times a day, plus texting. But she wants more time. Which makes me wonder, how often others spend time with their girlfriends. Is there a  norm?

As it is, I feel somewhat stifled, as I want to spend more time on projects and self improvement.  How does one balance that? We have fun together in and out of bed. Part of the dynamic is that she has a lot more downtime then I do. 

[456]

^-- I have found that many girls are yearning for a creative outlet or to use their own time more productively too.

What starts as "why u no wanna see me as much" whining, can quickly turn into "you know babe, you're right, I've been meaning to organize X or write Y or draw Z [and hopefully not fuck C]".

You have to subtly frame it like how if you hadn't been seizing on your own time and power to build yourself into the man you are today, you'd be like some other average guy and she loves the man you are, so you need to have that time to Work not just for your check, but for your life.

Throw in a casual "girl you need some better more healthy friends" and a "you need a creative outlet", while smiling and concerned, and chances are she'll cop to the fact that it's true (read: it is true for most people).

That's one path I've used successfully to free up some more time.

Also some thinking along the lines of "I don't want to have to make plans just to not make plans, I need some free unstructured time."

It helps if you actually are doing stuff (i.e. composing music, going hard on the side hustle so you won't need a day job, seeing your friends as it's an atomized world out there and it's criticial to spend time with likeminded men).

---

The goal is that she whines a little and parts kind of sad... you stay quiet.

9/10 times the next day she will say "omg you are right, what is WRONG with me" and feel embarrassed there even needed to be a conversation about why a Man has His Time and she can't assume your every hard-won free moment is default assigned to her.


(I've developed this line of thinking because when I was much younger, I would wait too long and then assert my need for space more abruptly and lamely, thus her response was more of a "Fine. I'll spend more time being busy ALSO." and start hanging with slightly more party-ish girls she doesn't even like, to make a point. To which I'd have to respond by doing the "well how about same amount of time but just better quality" and then work to make shit more special. Fuck that. Already had lost frame.)