[KorbenDallas]

I'm not a communist. I'm the opposite. I'm a Ron Paul, Austrian economist type.

But lets look at what the Soviet's were warning the Eastern Europeans about in the 70s and 80s.

-Western Capitalism is a degenerate system that will destroy the family, turn your women into whores. (kinda true)

-Western Capitalism only benefits the robber barons. (Western Crony capitalism, fiat system style, that is practiced in America and E.U., well this is sorta true)

-If you abandon Communism, then you will lose your solidarity with your countrymen. You won't have as strong as bonds. (kinda true)


So, Communism was bad, butttttt, our system now is corrupt and needs to be replaced.

My solution is to remove the Federal Governments monopoly on money and a return to a society with a heavy emphasis on faith, and country. Sorta like Russia without the corruption.



It's interesting though, that the Soviets critiques weren't completely inaccurate, and that its possible that the Soviet control of Eastern Europe may lead to their survival while Western Europe dies due to low birthrates and militant Islam.

[RexImperator]

I'll just point out that Russia has a low birthrate also, despite the more attractive women and more traditional attitudes.

[cascadecombo]

I would also point out, from an american perspective the women are more attractive. But the soviets see that shit daily. Ain't nothin special to them.

[Mage]

Soviet propoganda was correct but people still choose to run to capitalism when soviet union became weak. That's because every stupid fucker imagined that he/she would be the capitalist. Humans are flawed beings.

Soviet union was morally defeated not by things like liberty and nationalism, but things like bubble gum, blue jeans, import cars and other shiny import stuff.

Now nothing is different - people willing to remains enslaved cucks for as long as they get their iphone.

Of course communism was still bad.

[Parzival]

Capitalism did more against poverty in the world then any other system in the world. Today we have more freedom in the west then ever. Even the poorest one in Africa live longer then 50 years back. There is of course a lot of trouble with the capitalist system but every system that aims to illuminate people for a better future has proven as bad.

For me we are at a point where people enjoy this total freedom, the loss of all boundaries. But more and more people feel empty inside and turn inwards. I think in the future there will be more balance and a turn around to a more stable society. Still at the moment people get lost in this freedom with no limits and are to weak to make a stand. When you talk to people, they ask more and more whats the meaning of their life. To work? To consume? The erasing of values and families make them feel empty inside.

[The Father]

(11-19-2015 10:43 PM)KorbenDallas Wrote:  

I'm not a communist. I'm the opposite. I'm a Ron Paul, Austrian economist type.

But lets look at what the Soviet's were warning the Eastern Europeans about in the 70s and 80s.

-Western Capitalism is a degenerate system that will destroy the family, turn your women into whores. (kinda true)

-Western Capitalism only benefits the robber barons. (Western Crony capitalism, fiat system style, that is practiced in America and E.U., well this is sorta true)

-If you abandon Communism, then you will lose your solidarity with your countrymen. You won't have as strong as bonds. (kinda true)


So, Communism was bad, butttttt, our system now is corrupt and needs to be replaced.

My solution is to remove the Federal Governments monopoly on money and a return to a society with a heavy emphasis on faith, and country. Sorta like Russia without the corruption.



It's interesting though, that the Soviets critiques weren't completely inaccurate, and that its possible that the Soviet control of Eastern Europe may lead to their survival while Western Europe dies due to low birthrates and militant Islam.

Tell us more

[Mage]

(11-19-2015 11:43 PM)The Father Wrote:  

(11-19-2015 10:43 PM)KorbenDallas Wrote:  

I'm not a communist. I'm the opposite. I'm a Ron Paul, Austrian economist type.

But lets look at what the Soviet's were warning the Eastern Europeans about in the 70s and 80s.

-Western Capitalism is a degenerate system that will destroy the family, turn your women into whores. (kinda true)

-Western Capitalism only benefits the robber barons. (Western Crony capitalism, fiat system style, that is practiced in America and E.U., well this is sorta true)

-If you abandon Communism, then you will lose your solidarity with your countrymen. You won't have as strong as bonds. (kinda true)


So, Communism was bad, butttttt, our system now is corrupt and needs to be replaced.

My solution is to remove the Federal Governments monopoly on money and a return to a society with a heavy emphasis on faith, and country. Sorta like Russia without the corruption.



It's interesting though, that the Soviets critiques weren't completely inaccurate, and that its possible that the Soviet control of Eastern Europe may lead to their survival while Western Europe dies due to low birthrates and militant Islam.

Um, I lived in that part of the world and I don't think " turn your women into whores" was part of the propaganda. Quite the opposite: The communists were atheists; they rejected sexual morality as just another legacy of religion. So their women were pretty sexually liberated. I wasn't a fan of the communists, but hot and sexually liberated women? That was one of the few benefits!

Soviet women were much more conservative then contemporary capitalist women. Shunning a woman on her sexual behavior was ok in soviet times. Also since life was tough people valued their relationships. Divorce was there but there was no big incentives because everyone was poor and courts were not as biased against men.

[CynicalContrarian]

If the Soviets had any prescience about the future of the West.
That's because their agents were heavily involved in said demoralisation of the West via - "Active measures".

[Oz.]

I believe you have to live within a communist country to truly understand what it's like

[Bushido]

I'll disagree with the proposition being put forward. It's not capitalism that is to blame.

Britain and then later the USA became the envy of the world via their freewheeling capitalism. Social morals were also kept firmly intact via the church and family values.

As has been thoroughly documented around here, it's cultural marxism and crony capitalism that have done the damage to our societies. Was the former a weapon employed by the Soviets themselves? Who knows.

[heavy]

Big governments never work

Walmart can't point guns at you and throw you in jail because you won't shop with them.

[Krum]

I lived half my life on one side of the iron curtain
and the second half now under the crony capitalist system.
I know them both.

CynicalContrarian got it right

Quote:

If the Soviets had any prescience about the future of the West.
That's because their agents were heavily involved in said demoralisation of the West via - "Active measures".

Which is the reason why the communist experiment in the East was abandoned
and the experiment now is being tested in the West.

I don't remember who said it,
but they said that when the International Jewry leaves
the Soviet union it will collapse.
It's exactly what happened.

The goal is to have one system around the world
Which previously was branded as Internationalism
and now it's termed as Globalism.

In my opinion, the reason why they abandoned the experiment in the East
is because people there are slightly different.
They have bigger souls or as others call it Slavic Melancholy.

Plus, the testosterone levels in men in the East are higher.

People in the West are much better in creating order and maintaining law
and in setting up a working system
but for that reason they are also more robotic
and for that easier to control and manage.
They could be turned into zombies much more easily
than the people in the East.

The Germans sit in the middle
which is why they pose the greatest danger to the Globalists
and which is why the country has been still occupied since WW2.

[robreke]

I see what you're getting at KB, but I think you're off a bit:

Western capitalism didn't 'destroy the families and turn women into whores' - Feminism and cultural marxism ( a form of communism) did.

Western capitalism doesn't ONLY benefit the robber barons. It benefits everybody. The "poor" in the USA is somebody with a house and 2 tvs and an iPhone. They just have lower median incomes. The poor in communist countries are near destitute.

If you abandon communism...... - Communism is a terrible failed system. Every former communist country is adopting capitalism. Go to any US city and see the beneficial results of capitalism; Americans wearing nice clothes, everyone drives a car, everyone has a smart phone, the actual fact that smart phones exist, nice restaurants, etc etc. - capitalism and the freedom to be the best one can be in an economy created all of this.

During communism , you go to one of their cities and people were rationing food, wearing shitty clothes, all using mass transit, etc. The abolition of all private property doesn't work because no one gives a damn about anything if they don't own anything. There's no incentive or profit motive to create, innovate, grow, etc. Hence the economy goes to shit unless people are forced to do things by the government. I know you said communism was bad and don't like it, I'm just reiterating how bad it was/is.

Also, look at private institutions vs 'state run ( communist )' institutions. There's no comparison in the quality. Of course, Obamacare is taking the 'private' out of our healthcare system so we'll see how that pans out.

Capitalism has been corrupted a bit with the federal reserve , fiat money and a few other things, but all systems have their flaws. Communisms flaws were far greater, hence that's why it's societies always fail. When former USSR president Boris Yelskin came to the USA for the first time. He went in an American grocery store. He was flabbergasted at the abundance available to American shoppers. He couldn't believe you could just walk up and grab potatoes, or apples or bread or soda or whatever, right of the shelf with such ease and abundance. He exclaimed "people here don't even have to wait in line for bread!" His mindset was never the same after his visit.

I think the soviet propaganda didn't have much meat to it as far as the truth. It was used to keep the 'proletariat' in line and content with their slavish lives.

[Krum]

robreke, Capitalism in USA seems to work
not exactly because of the nature of the economic system
but because of 1. US foreign imperialistic policies
and 2. the fact the dollar is the world's reserve currency.

Take away these privileges and the collapse of the USSR
would look like a minor injury compared to the fall of USA.

In the height of Communism in the East
there were no poor people
everyone had guaranteed accommodation, TV, car
and although we were not wearing fancy branded cloths
no one looked destitute and poorly clothed.

[robreke]

(11-20-2015 09:18 AM)Krum Wrote:  

robreke, Capitalism in USA seems to work
not exactly because of the nature of the economic system
but because of 1. US foreign imperialistic policies
and 2. the fact the dollar is the world's reserve currency.

Take away these privileges and the collapse of the USSR
would look like a minor injury compared to the fall of USA.

In the height of Communism in the East
there were no poor people
everyone had guaranteed accommodation, TV, car
and although we were not wearing fancy branded cloths
no one looked destitute and poorly clothed.

Capitalism does work because of the nature of the system. The nature of capitalism is basically a free economy where one can open a business, or pursue whatever economic interests they want with relative freedom within the bounds of the law of course. The profit incentive is what's behind capitalism. When there's an incentive, entrepreneurial and motivated people will pursue their dreams knowing they'll be rewarded with profit if they are successful. This is not the case with communism. People were 'provided' the things you say under communism but this doesn't create entrepreneurialism the way it does in the west.

The US wasn't made a reserve currency until the 1940s at Bretton woods. Before that, American citizens were, on average, doing better than soviet citizens.

Also, US Imperialism, as you say, probably didn't begin in earnest until, Vietnam or later I'm guessing. Way before this, up until then, Americans enjoyed a much higher standard of living than any communist country.

Maybe at the height of communism things were decent for the citizens, but it didn't stay there long as it's an inherently flawed system. As the communist 'experiment' in any country runs its course, there's perhaps a time after it's started where the house of cards remains standing and things appear good. But, no house of cards or in this case a "lie" ( communism itself ) can remain standing.

Just read any objective book on communism in the former USSR or eastern bloc. Several are written by people who live there. By any objective measure, it's a vastly inferior system.

[Krum]

I am not advocating for the communist system
I know what it like as I grew up under it.

Quote:

The US wasn't made a reserve currency until the 1940s at Bretton woods. Before that, American citizens were, on average, doing better than soviet citizens.

I don't know what you base this on
but the Soviets manage to bring man in space
before the US. So it's pointless to compare like that.

The mistakes the communists made were:

1. Too big central government. They were realizing that btw
as there were constantly talks about decentralization.

2. They did not allow people to travel to the West.
I'm sure many would have gone and come back
were they able to do so freely.

3. They did not allow a free trade with the West
fearing that it would make their products seem inferior.
Truth is they sucked at marketing and
western product did seem superior
due to better promotion and packaging.

4. They did not allow people to hold small farms
and small plots of land. In countries which they did
like Yugoslavia and Hungary, the results were evident.

5. They did not allow small private enterprises.

The best model as China shows is perhaps
a combination of the two.

[Comte De St. Germain]

The United States isn't exactly the example I would give when arguing the benefits of capitalism.

Mass expanses of resources and free land that could easily be taken from natives coupled with a lack of war on the home soil made America great.

Singapore or Switzerland would be my example of a country benefitting from raw capitalism. Singapore magically became a trade city overnight and ended up being a business city with extremely high standards of living.

The Swiss surrounded by countries that would invade them if they could perfected a capitalist system with NO minimum wage. They have one of the most successful economies in the world and the right to bear arms. Not to mention they were smart enough not to join the currently failing EU.

[Krum]

(11-20-2015 10:35 AM)hwuzhere Wrote:  

The Swiss surrounded by countries that would invade them if they could perfected a capitalist system with NO minimum wage. They have one of the most successful economies in the world and the right to bear arms. Not to mention they were smart enough not to join the currently failing EU.

Bad example.

Switzerland benefits enormously for being a money laundry heaven
which is possibly why it is not an EU member.
It was founded by the Knights Templar - the original bankers.
The mother of all Central Banks, Bank for International Settlements (BIS)
is based in Basel, Switzerland.

[KorbenDallas]

The Father, I've lived in that part of the world too, and I saw propaganda films from the Soviet times that depicted sexual mores as extremely decadent in "capitalist" societies. Obviously the propaganda shifted and changed over time to suit the communist party, so, it could be you simply learned about a different countries propaganda or a different time period.



With regards to the law birthrates, there was a baby boom in the Soviet Union in the 80's. It wasn't until the "shock treatments" of the 90's that Vodka became real cheap, and crime and corruption ran rampant, that the birthrates plummeted. Now birthrates in Russia have picked up a little bit, but still, there is a long way to go to restore Eastern Europe and Russia, to their pre-communist days in some ways, but their people at least seem stronger and more resistant to the propaganda Western Governments are disseminating.

[Geomann180]

(11-20-2015 10:58 AM)Krum Wrote:  

(11-20-2015 10:35 AM)hwuzhere Wrote:  

The Swiss surrounded by countries that would invade them if they could perfected a capitalist system with NO minimum wage. They have one of the most successful economies in the world and the right to bear arms. Not to mention they were smart enough not to join the currently failing EU.

Bad example.

Switzerland benefits enormously for being a money laundry heaven
which is possibly why it is not an EU member.
It was founded by the Knights Templar - the original bankers.
The mother of all Central Banks, Bank for International Settlements (BIS)
is based in Basel, Switzerland.

Krum, please post more.

G

[robreke]

(11-20-2015 10:00 AM)Krum Wrote:  

I am not advocating for the communist system
I know what it like as I grew up under it.

Quote:

The US wasn't made a reserve currency until the 1940s at Bretton woods. Before that, American citizens were, on average, doing better than soviet citizens.

I don't know what you base this on
but the Soviets manage to bring man in space
before the US. So it's pointless to compare like that.

The mistakes the communists made were:

1. Too big central government. They were realizing that btw
as there were constantly talks about decentralization.

2. They did not allow people to travel to the West.
I'm sure many would have gone and come back
were they able to do so freely.

3. They did not allow a free trade with the West
fearing that it would make their products seem inferior.
Truth is they sucked at marketing and
western product did seem superior
due to better promotion and packaging.

4. They did not allow people to hold small farms
and small plots of land. In countries which they did
like Yugoslavia and Hungary, the results were evident.

5. They did not allow small private enterprises.

The best model as China shows is perhaps
a combination of the two.

I don't disagree with these points. Living there gives you the experience to speak on these matters accurately.

My main point is, on average, countries under capitalism have enjoyed a higher standard of living for their citizens than countries under communist rule.

[Only One Man]

Capitalism itself isn't the problem. The problem is corporatism, manipulation and outright theivery by the bankers and wall street. Multinational corporations have way too much power over the western world.

[The Father]

I'm speechless

[Comte De St. Germain]

(11-20-2015 10:58 AM)Krum Wrote:  

(11-20-2015 10:35 AM)hwuzhere Wrote:  

The Swiss surrounded by countries that would invade them if they could perfected a capitalist system with NO minimum wage. They have one of the most successful economies in the world and the right to bear arms. Not to mention they were smart enough not to join the currently failing EU.

Bad example.

Switzerland benefits enormously for being a money laundry heaven
which is possibly why it is not an EU member.
It was founded by the Knights Templar - the original bankers.
The mother of all Central Banks, Bank for International Settlements (BIS)
is based in Basel, Switzerland.

Fair enough Hong Kong is the main other example I can think of. Pure capitalism was never and currently isn't a thing unless you count the black market.

[SunW]

You clearly don't even know what capitalism is based on your first post. But let's refute this one by one.

(11-19-2015 10:43 PM)KorbenDallas Wrote:  

I'm not a communist. I'm the opposite. I'm a Ron Paul, Austrian economist type.

Sure you are.

Quote:

-Western Capitalism is a degenerate system that will destroy the family, turn your women into whores.

If you're using the United States or Europe as proof of this please explain to me Sherlock how low interest rates, suppressed by the central banks, is capitalistic. Also, explain to me how investors can borrow 40 to 1, when capitalism is a free market idea and no one in a free market would lend at a ratio of 40 to 1 to a borrower. Don't believe me? Imagine someone said, "Hey I got 100 investors to put in $100,000 and I want to borrow $40 million from you? Oh and if I fail, you'll give me more money." Would you sign up? Investors get these from the central banks, and when they fail, get bailed out. Also, explain "growth quotas" from these central banks - capitalism never says anything about an economy must grow at a certain rate.

None of those things are capitalism. Those are about as communist as you can get - insiders get everything, skills don't earn anything and we have "quotas" to meet.

Quote:

-Western Capitalism only benefits the robber barons. (Western Crony capitalism, fiat system style, that is practiced in America and E.U., well this is sorta true)

Wrong; these aren't capitalist systems - like communist systems, insiders get favors done for them regardless of whether they're skilled or not. Have you heard of Long Term Capital Management? That bailout happened to the Fed's buddies - that isn't capitalism; that is what Americans in the 80s used to laugh about Russians; they didn't reward skills, they rewarded "who you know."

Quote:

-If you abandon Communism, then you will lose your solidarity with your countrymen. You won't have as strong as bonds. (kinda true)

If interest rates were high and failure was allowed to happen in the market, from time to time, people would be more humble because failure teaches humility. In addition, people would stop wasting time with their "beliefs" and "attitudes" and get their ass moving because they would know that any failure is around the corner. Idle hands are the workshop of the devil; a lot of the lack of solidarity comes from people who have too much time on their hand and who divide for their own interest.

Capitalism requires failure like Christianity requires Hell; they are both incentive based systems. If you remove the incentive, they immediately cease to be what they are.

Now, here's the irony. In 2000, Murikans peed their pants and bailed out LTCM. Russia let their entire economy collapse (Putin has balls). Russia thrived like crazy after it collapsed - but failure happened. The same is happening now. The Fed is printing money to the moon, central-planning style - "we won't let the markets fall" - while Russia raised interest rates during a crisis and let their companies fail. Russia won't only do fine in the next ten years, if they keep following the capitalist path, they'll out perform every economy in the world because their companies that are finding ways to make it through the difficult times, will out compete everyone when the good times return.

Of course, Russia staying on the capitalist path is hard to imagine. But maybe the powers have changed and if it has, the Russian people's character will be strengthened.