[Saweeep]

What makes you think she was pre-pubescent?

[Phoenix]

Never said she was. As you will read, I used a more extreme example as a counter-point. E.g. If A is 5ft high and too tall, and B is 6ft, he too is too tall.

[Tim in real life]

Good policy to follow; I previously gave some immature people hell for this, to the point I even outed them before.

[chyamor]

Can they go after dating site for allowing someone under age?

[Jaydublin]

(06-18-2015 10:27 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Kid should just quit college and leave the country. Total shame that is what it had to come to.

Yea this kid could still have a bright future if somebody could get through to him.

It is probably worth setting up some sort of blog to help educate young men, and women when needed, on the other opportunities outside the USA for when the USA turns its back on them. Most of these young men have had their minds closed to life outside the USA and dont even consider leaving as an option.

They need to know that just because life is over in the USA it doesnt mean life is over. It has only been ruined if they decide to stay in the USA.

Though I am curious if they can still get a passport? or they are a complete fucking prisoner. It is easy to cross the Mexican border by car without a passport but who wants to live that lifestyle.... I am not sure how applying for refugee status would work out as a registered sex offender.

[Jaydublin]

(06-19-2015 09:58 AM)chyamor Wrote:  

Can they go after dating site for allowing someone under age?

One day we will all have virtual accounts. This logging in anonymously shit will end and everybody will be known all over the web. What we are experiencing now is still the wild west of the web.

I dont like this but just wait and see it happen. there will be no logging into the internet anonymously.

[Ziltoid]

Quote:

Since children have a diminished capacity to think for themselves and protect themselves, we impose unambiguous laws by which other adults will protect them. "Oh that child was a slut" isn't rigorous enough to be law in an ordered society.

There isn't anything unambiguous about imposing an arbitrary age at which on midnight of their birthday they are magically deemed capable of giving informed consent.
What is so particularly unique and heinous about statutory rape that it should be exempt from the standard of mens rea that virtually every other crime requires for a conviction?

If these laws exist to protect children that are incapable of thinking for themselves (for what it's worth, not something I think many adult women can really be called capable of), then I'm not clear why you don't agree this case should have been thrown out? This was not an innocent child being lured into a van by a stranger with candy, she was using an online service that exists for hooking up, and she lied about her age presumably because she knew the laws in question. Even her parents agreed the guy did nothing wrong.

These laws as they currently stand and are enforced are just another facet of anti-male hysteria, as evidenced by the fact that it is a fairly common occurrence for underage guys to be slapped with statutory charges for having sex with a likewise underage girl, while the reverse is so uncommon it's nearly unheard of. There really isn't any way to argue that this isn't an extension of the same societal and legal insanity that presides over sexual encounters between adult men and women, "yes means yes", regret after the fact = rape, she thought "no" but was too afraid to say it = rape, even if you're both drunk the man is still exclusively culpable of rape, etc...

Overall I'm not sure what your point is here, but I suppose your opening contribution of "Did you guys miss the part where she was 14?" said it all. What age, to you, would be the best bulletproof magical standard to run with, and why? 17? 18?

[Galahad]

Such case are very strange for me. Compare something similar to Germany then it totally depends. First of all we don't have such hard punishments for teens and people that stand in front of a court for the first time. In the US it seems like they send people to Prison for the rest of their life for nonsense.

Compare to Germany, if you are older then 14 and have sex with someone that is under 14 then its sexual abuse.
If you are older then 21 and have sex with someone younger then 16 it depends if the parents go to the police. Then it goes to the court and they check if the person under 16 is mental able to make a judgement or not. So it depends on the single case.
For sure its sexual abuse when you are in a position of power or education. Like a teacher or something else. Then you every sexual interaction with someone below 16 is sexual abuse. This case is called depending-relationship.
Also Sex with people under 18 for money or with force is sexual abuse.

When I see this case, well it wouldn't end that bad for the boy in Germany.

[Troll King]

What IDs do 14 year old girls, or boys, have? Where I went to HS in the states you had to be 15 to get a learners permit and 16 to get a license. Though, most people were delayed a few years due to the cost of taking the Drivers Ed course, which was something like 600$ and also there was quite a wait time due to scheduling and only being so many instructors. Hell, I knew people who didn't get their license until they were in their 20s. Unless you are a smoker or have some other reason to have a non-driving license, then there really isn't a point to getting one until you get your drivers license.

Also, plenty of underage people have fake IDs which can often look quite real. Hell, I have trouble figuring out real ones due to how different the IDs can be from state to state and sometimes even year to year as they update them often.

Another thing, it is quite common for underage girls to go after older guys. Hypergamy is best noticed in the teen group of girls. In middle school I knew a lot of girls who were chasing after high school guys and a few who were chasing after older guys in the late teens to 20s. We are talking 6th and 7th grade here. In high school the freshman girls want to get with upper classmen and many go for guys in college. This has always been normal because women want a guy who is atleast 2 or 3 years older than them and many want 5 or more years. This is why older guys have always been able to date younger women, even with age gaps of decades.

We can legislate this all we want but it won't change the basic biology. Why do girls, especially teen girls, lie about their age anyways?

Another thing, let's remember that it was first and second wave feminists that pushed for the increase to the age of consent laws. This is because older women didn't want to have to compete with younger women and also due to their disdain for male sexuality.

I have seriously seen a few feminists suggest another increase to the age of consent laws to 21 or even 25. They picked 25 because they said that since we know that that is the age when the fear and decision making parts of the brain have fully matured and how can a woman give full consent if we doesn't have a mature brain?

Remember Heartistes maxim which went something like this: Feminism is about maximally restricting male sexuality and choice while maximally expanding female sexuality and choice

[NY Digital]

Don't they also argue that women mature faster than men ? The hypocrisy is so blatant.

[Medic42]

I've always wanted to steal one of these signs and put it over my bed...

[Atlanta Man]

(06-18-2015 10:55 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

I have trouble believing a 14yo wouldn't look underage.

I had a class in law school about "strict liability" in regards to statutory rape(guilty if the act happened even if you were mislead into the act by a victim lying about her age). The instructor had a power point with girls and asked us to guess their age, out of 20 girls only 15 were over 16 and most people did not pick out the young ones. Also the real test of a pedophile is liking children without secondary sex characteristics, age is arbitrary as hell people develop differently at different ages. Would you have banged Lindsay Lohan in Mean Girls? She was hot as fuck and underage.

[zaqan]

(06-18-2015 06:55 PM)Sourcecode Wrote:  

I use to joke and ask girls what middle school they went to right off the bat.. Because they can lie about age quick, but they would be slow to drop a completely different school.

Thats a great neg. I always ask older women (25+) what year they graduated high school. Its a curve ball that they dont realize the implication of.

(06-18-2015 10:45 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  

Does 'time immemorial' alone make a behaviour OK?

There was a general code of law that worked for about 5000 years, and was incorporated in many forms, such as the Bible. Only in the 1800s did people start to change things. That is when age of consent started, which as noted above, was to restrict the options for men. Rape is rape. If she cannot or did not consent, it will be obvious. Also, 14-18 girls are obvious. I just met some girls who looked like they could be early 20s, but once they opened their mouths and being expressive, it was clear they were under 18. And Ive worked with under 18 girls and usually its pretty obvious. They are really annoying little children that have no world experience. And around 20, there is definitely a bump. A girl I worked with I swore was 30-40; she is 20. Nature has given us all the information that we need to know about who is ready.

[Comte De St. Germain]

(06-19-2015 06:05 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

Never said she was. As you will read, I used a more extreme example as a counter-point. E.g. If A is 5ft high and too tall, and B is 6ft, he too is too tall.

I've met a 22 year old who is 5'1". Is it bad that I fucked a short girl when I'm above 6'?

[Geomann180]

(06-18-2015 10:38 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

Did you guys miss the part where she was 14?

Did your read anything else from the thread?

G

[The Beast1]

(06-19-2015 10:18 AM)Jaydublin Wrote:  

(06-18-2015 10:27 AM)The Beast1 Wrote:  

Kid should just quit college and leave the country. Total shame that is what it had to come to.

Yea this kid could still have a bright future if somebody could get through to him.

It is probably worth setting up some sort of blog to help educate young men, and women when needed, on the other opportunities outside the USA for when the USA turns its back on them. Most of these young men have had their minds closed to life outside the USA and dont even consider leaving as an option.

They need to know that just because life is over in the USA it doesnt mean life is over. It has only been ruined if they decide to stay in the USA.

Though I am curious if they can still get a passport? or they are a complete fucking prisoner. It is easy to cross the Mexican border by car without a passport but who wants to live that lifestyle.... I am not sure how applying for refugee status would work out as a registered sex offender.

He can still get a passport, he'll just have to wait until his legal BS ends. He'll have to transfer to a university in a 3rd world country. The whole process is fraught with gotchas. To do this, he'll basically be in exile from the US the rest of his life.

Personally, i'd choose exile over such a stupid charge.

[Phoenix]

I wasn't expecting to be standing alone in support of age of consent laws against a hostile crowd, but if that's the sentiment that's fine, I'll let it go.

I will point out though that this is the percentage of the world in which there are age of consent laws (no limit is grey, puberty is peach, marriage is pink):


So whilst anti age of consent sentiment seems to be almost unanimous here, globally the opposite is the case, and the burden of explanation rests on a new thesis, not the old one. Almost the entire world, with its varied cultures and forms of government, believes that a line should be drawn, and by far the most common line is 'a specific age'. This isn't some quirk of the 21st century West. I'm in the right by default, I've made my case, and I don't feel like pressing it any further unless someone is going to submit their idea of a replacement system.

[Troll King]

^^^ What are the ages for those colors?

Also, if I missed something then I apologize, but I don't see anyone saying that there shouldn't be a strict line for when someone can consent to sex. The real difference, for me especially, is how arbitrary it all seems and how contradictory the messages are depending on what argument is being made.

On one hand feminists will claim that a girl who is under the age of consent, let's say for argument sake that we will define it as 16 as it is in many states and much of the world, she can not consent to sex.

OK. Fine. That makes sense.

Until, those same feminists turn around and claim the following.

That is that a teenager has, no matter whether she is above the age of consent or not, complete right to determine how she acts on her sexuality and the consequences of her sexuality.

This is basically what a large number of feminist arguments boil down to, especially with respect to slut-shaming and sex ed.

Hell, how can a girl who is under the age of consent, and thereby can not legally consent to use her body for sexual purposes because she doesn't have the cognitive ability to make those decisions because she is still a child, have the ability to choose to have an abortion without the knowledge or permission of her parents or guardians?

Think about that for a moment. She can be under age and feminists will demand that she has total control over her body and sexuality but then they will turn around and claim that a girl who is mature enough to choose abortion as a teenager without any outside influence is NOT mature enough to decide for herself who she wants to sleep with.

How does that make sense? Also, I don't want to turn this into an abortion debate so if you like replace abortion with becoming a mom or choosing birth control or whatever. There are a number of feminist and progressive, and even some conservative, arguments that boil down to basically the same. That is that under one circumstance a girl is mature enough to make a decision sexually until she makes a decision that is frowned upon, like having sex with an older man, and then all of a sudden feminists, and the laws they pass, claim the girl isn't mature enough.

Another thing. I haven't said anything of young boys in this type of situation and it doesn't take much looking to see that there is an entire different set of standards applied to males under the age of consent or as teenagers.

[WanderingSoul]

You're twisting our words to suit your argument.

Quote the person here who said there should be no age of consent.

I never said that. I said 19 year old getting into trouble for banging a 14 year old is ridiculous.

And did you really just unanimously declare yourself the winner of this debate, even though everyone has disagreed with you lol? "I'm in the right by default".

[Libertas]

This story hits really close to home for me, because I'm just doing the final polishing on this book I finished last year about an increasingly authoritarian creep and the reaction to it.

A shithead judge like this goes ahead with preposterous conduct, which sparks a young man to lose his senses. This young man's temporarily losing of his senses in turn sparks the powder keg that had been built up, leading to a disastrous war.

I almost feel like I could have been writing about this instance years ago.

[Phoenix]

(06-20-2015 12:05 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

You're twisting our words to suit your argument.

Quote the person here who said there should be no age of consent.

I never said that. I said 19 year old getting into trouble for banging a 14 year old is ridiculous.

And did you really just unanimously declare yourself the winner of this debate, even though everyone has disagreed with you lol? "I'm in the right by default".

You mean 'unilaterally'. Yes, my position is right by default, because it is the existing thesis. Kind of like if someone started a thread here called "umbrellas are the worst way to block rain", the burden of explanation is on them, not the "umbrellas work fine" guy. And everyone in this thread disagrees with me, not the world generally.

"As far as age of consent goes, that's a joke too.", "he'll just have to wait until his legal BS ends", "imposing an arbitrary age at which on midnight of their birthday they are magically deemed capable of giving informed consent". If the sentiment of this thread isn't clearly anti age of consent, then hell, the sentiment of this forum isn't anti-feminism either. People aren't just saying "the punishment is too harsh", they're attacking the age of consent system that it came from.

So you're not against an age of consent (which necessitates it being enforced), but a 19yo old getting in trouble for banging a 14yo is 'ridiculous' and it shouldn't have happened... You can't have it both ways.

I'm open to hearing the specific details of the new system that should replace the current one.

[Samseau]

(06-20-2015 12:34 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(06-20-2015 12:05 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

You're twisting our words to suit your argument.

Quote the person here who said there should be no age of consent.

I never said that. I said 19 year old getting into trouble for banging a 14 year old is ridiculous.

And did you really just unanimously declare yourself the winner of this debate, even though everyone has disagreed with you lol? "I'm in the right by default".

You mean 'unilaterally'. Yes, my position is right by default, because it is the existing thesis. Kind of like if someone started a thread here called "umbrellas are the worst way to block rain", the burden of explanation is on them, not the "umbrellas work fine" guy. And everyone in this thread disagrees with me, not the world generally.

"As far as age of consent goes, that's a joke too.", "he'll just have to wait until his legal BS ends", "imposing an arbitrary age at which on midnight of their birthday they are magically deemed capable of giving informed consent". If the sentiment of this thread isn't clearly anti age of consent, then hell, the sentiment of this forum isn't anti-feminism either. People aren't just saying "the punishment is too harsh", they're attacking the age of consent system that it came from.

So you're not against an age of consent (which necessitates it being enforced), but a 19yo old getting in trouble for banging a 14yo is 'ridiculous' and it shouldn't have happened... You can't have it both ways.

I'm open to hearing the specific details of the new system that should replace the current one.

Actually your research disproves your "thesis" because in virtually every country except America this boy would haven't gotten any punishment, except maybe a slap on the wrist.

[WanderingSoul]

(06-20-2015 12:34 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(06-20-2015 12:05 PM)RioNomad Wrote:  

You're twisting our words to suit your argument.

Quote the person here who said there should be no age of consent.

I never said that. I said 19 year old getting into trouble for banging a 14 year old is ridiculous.

And did you really just unanimously declare yourself the winner of this debate, even though everyone has disagreed with you lol? "I'm in the right by default".

You mean 'unilaterally'. Yes, my position is right by default, because it is the existing thesis. Kind of like if someone started a thread here called "umbrellas are the worst way to block rain", the burden of explanation is on them, not the "umbrellas work fine" guy. And everyone in this thread disagrees with me, not the world generally.

"As far as age of consent goes, that's a joke too.", "he'll just have to wait until his legal BS ends", "imposing an arbitrary age at which on midnight of their birthday they are magically deemed capable of giving informed consent". If the sentiment of this thread isn't clearly anti age of consent, then hell, the sentiment of this forum isn't anti-feminism either. People aren't just saying "the punishment is too harsh", they're attacking the age of consent system that it came from.

So you're not against an age of consent (which necessitates it being enforced), but a 19yo old getting in trouble for banging a 14yo is 'ridiculous' and it shouldn't have happened... You can't have it both ways.

I'm open to hearing the specific details of the new system that should replace the current one.

You do realize that I can be in favor of age of consent, but not in favor of 19 year olds being punished for banging 14 year olds, right? Just because I'm not in favor of the age of consent laws in the US as they are currently, doesn't mean I think there should be no age of consent laws at all.

I don't get why this is so hard for you to understand. I think you just like to argue.

I don't have a whole system to lay out for you, no matter how many times you request it, but one change I would make is that teenagers should not be punished for hooking up with other teenagers.

Quote:

You mean 'unilaterally'. Yes, my position is right by default, because it is the existing thesis. Kind of like if someone started a thread here called "umbrellas are the worst way to block rain", the burden of explanation is on them, not the "umbrellas work fine" guy. And everyone in this thread disagrees with me, not the world generally.

Everything I read of yours comes out in a Sheldon Cooper voice in my head.

[spokepoker]

Since the judge voiced his opinion for the sentencing guidelines, can it be shown to be biased and have a mistrial or something along those lines?

[Galahad]

I wonder why the punishment has to be that extreme for the boy. I mean its not an old guy that force this girl. Yes its against the law, those are the rules. But its not even put in that the girl lied about the age, that she is mental able to have a free will in this case and the parents also fine. A light punishment should be fine. Its not an old pervert that try to get the girl into his van.
Nobody get hurt beside the ego of some old judge. Why not let the kid do some social work hours? Why destroy his life with the prison?

I absolutely don't get those over hard punishment in such cases. It only creates suffering. Every chase is a single chase and in this one no harm was done. Only by the judge and this should not be.