[N°6]

They are not capitalists, they are usurers, of the worst possible sort.

As internationalists, their cosmopolitan tastes give them no loyalty to their countrymen whose jobs they are exporting overseas.

They are worse than the reviled usurers of history who at least had gold to lend in the first place. Modern usurers create money as debt out of nothing and lend it at interest.

The ever poorer host with the venom from the usurious bite running through his veins, needs to pay real money and its compound interest back in exchange for the invented money lent to him.

Where does the host get real wealth from?

His vitality, his life source. It is a bit like this:

[kaotic]

That's kind of what I was getting at, there isn't much we can do.

If I know half the shit I know now, I'd probably be in finance or real estate.

Problem is I'm in my late twenties...I'd more than likely have to take a paycut if I switch careers full time.

Even I did it part time - it'd take exponentially longer to get to the average I should be at my age in the given field.

[Chick Magnet]

On a relevant note...

I just put up an easy research job on Elance for $15 an hour. I specifically specified native-English speakers only (preferably college students or young people looking for some extra cash)

Within minutes, I had 17 Indian proposals.

One of them wrote,

"Please ignore all copy paste proposals." That's it, lol.

The whole labour market is being taken over by these stooges, even in the cyber world.

P.S. No Indian will be hired on my watch.

[It_is_my_time]

(06-11-2015 01:49 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

So what the fuck can we do ?

Corpos run the country and we're getting fucked.

What now ? There is no simple solution.

Look out for numero uno. I wouldn't recommend getting married and having kids in the USA unless the course changes drastically.

Find something you enjoy doing and you get paid for. Live cheaply, save and look for investment opportunities. Learn to live with less and less and spend free time looking for wisdom and use every day to grow stronger/smarter.

If you end up with enough money to escape or to live above the fray, then enjoy it up. Other wise, be patient, be low maintenance, and be thankful you are not one of those married simps hating his life and realizing that his life is only going to get worse.

[CleanSlate]

(06-11-2015 03:26 PM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

Look out for numero uno. I wouldn't recommend getting married and having kids in the USA unless the course changes drastically.

Find something you enjoy doing and you get paid for. Live cheaply, save and look for investment opportunities. Learn to live with less and less and spend free time looking for wisdom and use every day to grow stronger/smarter.

If you end up with enough money to escape or to live above the fray, then enjoy it up. Other wise, be patient, be low maintenance, and be thankful you are not one of those married simps hating his life and realizing that his life is only going to get worse.

Exactly. This, plus I'm looking for a way out of the USA.

[Bill Brasky]

(06-11-2015 12:43 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

American companies aren't even trying to hide their flagrant abuse of the H1B visa program anymore. The point of the program is to fill voids for high demand jobs that they can't find Americans to do. But how can this be the case if they are making American workers train these HB1 guys from India in order to take over their jobs? I listened to a radio interview today with some of these programmers and the company made it a condition that they had to train the immigrants for 3 months to do their jobs in order to get severance pay which was equivalent to a year of work, and even though they were gutted, that's quite a chunk of money to walk away from, so they did it.

I'm so sick of these capitalist fuckheads that see this country only as an open marketplace to do business and make money, and not as an actual nation worthy of any type of social responsibility. Driving down wages is terrible for Americans and our economy, even though it may be great for stock prices in the short term. The Americans will spend all of the paycheck in America. The immigrants will send a healthy portion of that as remittances overseas rather than recycling all of it into the American economy. The larger American paycheck means a higher tax base, and higher level of consumption which means more people employed down the chain. It means people buying houses and starting families with stable jobs. I've heard stories about H1B programmers from India getting paid terrible money living 4 to an apartment.

I don't know if there will be any public backlash against this. I hope there is. Disney loves to project a wholesome, All-American image while firing its American employees to replace them with foreigners that they must train to do their jobs. Unfortunately it's not only Disney that does this, it's many tech companies. Google is lobbying hard for more H1Bs as well. These aren't exactly companies that are strapped for cash. Paying the going wage for an American programmer is hardly going to bankrupt these already corporations that already have profits in the billions.


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/las...ments.html

HB1 gets piggybacked on immigration and diversity. Democrats love it for the diversity and Republicans love it for cheap labor. On that note, Larry Ellison will be hosting a fund raiser for Rubio at his mansion in California. From Breitbart:

Oracle lobbied for Rubio’s “Gang of Eight” immigration bill, S. 744 (formally known as the Border Security, Economic Opportunity and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013) , and successfully pushed an amendment that would go on to expand H-1B visas. The CEOs of Google, Yahoo, Microsoft and Cisco were also among those to laud and applaud the bill’s passage in the Senate.

As much as I loath the left and most Democrats, the fact is is that Republicans are not much better.

Billionaires will ALWAYS act in their financial interests. And you cannot just tax them more as they can move their money to any of the numerous countries willing to hide it for them. Plus, I am not one for unreasonable taxation. I believe that congress and the elite of the US will only be appealed to by a form of American nationalism. This of course is minus the billionares that are dual citizens or are citizens of other countries living in the US.

Ultimately, diversity leaves us with no nation. Immigration MUST stop and a new form of nationalism must begin to take root.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(06-11-2015 11:12 AM)zombiejimmorrison Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 08:55 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

Laissez-faire system was widely in place for a good century or more in many Western countries. It produced 70 hour workweeks and factory workers working in shoe factories while being unable to afford shoes.

I'm guessing you're talking about the industrial revolution here. Of course it had its problems but what your describing is not true. Life expectancy went up, real income wealth went up, population grew, technology got better. Most people where dirt poor before that, the only wealthy people were nobles. They did have child laborers and long hours but they always had that to some extent, the only difference is it actually gave normal people a disposable income.

As a matter of fact there was a time between 1500-1700 before the industrial revolution where in some countries like Netherlands the common folk had a higher lifestyle than later on. They were taller, better fed and had a much more balanced growth pattern.

Also I might add - I have no beef with the 'sphere Libertarians. I can understand their viewpoint which appeals to the fact that intelligent Alphas/Sigmas might do better there. Unless you are a billionaire libertarian you will most likely allow certain economic zones to test out monetary and economic models. So those Libertarians would have no trouble to field test interest free money creation and strong unions in some areas. If it is found to be superior then it can be implemented anywhere else. Just as I would admit after extensive field tests that the full Libertarian economic model is superior. So essentially it is useless mental masturbation about models which won't come about anyway in real life.

The difference in our day to day economic life is probably small with only variety of how well we manage to make money or have some variations on what we would be willing to do ethically.

[speakeasy]

(06-11-2015 03:25 PM)Chick Magnet Wrote:  

On a relevant note...

I just put up an easy research job on Elance for $15 an hour. I specifically specified native-English speakers only (preferably college students or young people looking for some extra cash)

Within minutes, I had 17 Indian proposals.

One of them wrote,

"Please ignore all copy paste proposals." That's it, lol.

The whole labour market is being taken over by these stooges, even in the cyber world.

P.S. No Indian will be hired on my watch.

This is only going to get worse as more and more jobs are able to be outsourced digitally. India is also still growing in population and will soon overtake China as the world's most populous country. So there's no end in sight to downward pressure on wages, even for high-skilled jobs. Anything that can be done remotely is under threat.

(06-11-2015 03:39 PM)mrbiggs Wrote:  

HB1 gets piggybacked on immigration and diversity. Democrats love it for the diversity and Republicans love it for cheap labor. On that note, Larry Ellison will be hosting a fund raiser for Rubio at his mansion in California. From Breitbart:

Oracle lobbied for Rubio’s “Gang of Eight” immigration bill, S. 744 (formally known as the Border Security, Economic Opportunity and Immigration Modernization Act of 2013) , and successfully pushed an amendment that would go on to expand H-1B visas. The CEOs of Google, Yahoo, Microsoft and Cisco were also among those to laud and applaud the bill’s passage in the Senate.

As much as I loath the left and most Democrats, the fact is is that Republicans are not much better.

Billionaires will ALWAYS act in their financial interests. And you cannot just tax them more as they can move their money to any of the numerous countries willing to hide it for them. Plus, I am not one for unreasonable taxation. I believe that congress and the elite of the US will only be appealed to by a form of American nationalism. This of course is minus the billionares that are dual citizens or are citizens of other countries living in the US.

Ultimately, diversity leaves us with no nation. Immigration MUST stop and a new form of nationalism must begin to take root.

I get it. I totally get why ultra-nationalism rises. The free market provides no solution to any of these problems. It only exacerbates them. The only other thing that can be done without the use of big government is for citizens to stop patronizing businesses with these policies. If Disney starts getting angry letters rolling in and visits to their theme parks plummet, they'll rethink their policies.

[CleanSlate]

I went back and read this whole thread, including Tuth's bomb of a post.

The funny thing is, this thread did not make me depressed. If I were a married simp today with kids, and I read this, I would be in a really dark mood.

All the more reason to stay single and to open our minds to possibilities beyond our cubicles, beyond our home's walls, and beyond our borders. Being single = mobile.

[Magnesium Chloride]

What is wrong with this?

Why do American exceptionalists believe they are far more important than Indians? The indians gain far more(chance to finally escape poverty contributing something useful) than american workers lose(they cannot earn money by leeching and working inefficient jobs anymore).

Not to mention that even if you do not care about the welfare of Indians, besides the irrational hate of "the rich", Americans still gain far more than they lose. Sure the big companies gain. But so does everyone who interacts with them, the shareholders(there is your chance!), anyone who does business with them etc. The only people who lose are those who work inefficient jobs doing inefficient work(ie backwards thinking). But they only lose if they continue to not be efficient...

[Daddy]

I've seen both sides of the coin: I've been an employee and a business man.
Both employees and employers expect way too much out of each other.

Students fresh out of college expect something like 20$ an hour plus a lot more. They're not worth it. If you're a small business, hiring a new employee for 20 bucks an hour is just not productive anymore, with all the admin BS that comes along with him, and the simple fact that employees are not loyal. Investing in them is risky, because they might leave as soon as they get a better offer and you lose everything.

As for employers, they expect employees to kill themselves at their job, even if they have no incentives to do so at all. Employees usually don't give a shit about the company, its objectives, or the dreams of the CEO. Why would they? They don't get a cut, and they can go work elsewhere if the company fails.

One thing is sure, I wouldn't pay 20$ an hour for a beginner. It's just not economically viable. His output at the end of the mouth isn't worth his cost, so I would be losing money, and when he's done learning the job he will quit and get hired in a bigger company to get an instant promotion. That's how it works.

So, as a business man, would you hire an entitled, non loyal American who cost 20$ an hour, or a very willing, hard working Vietnamese for 3$ an hour? At this point it's no longer about ethics, it's about economics.

[Libertas]

(06-11-2015 12:44 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  

Libertas, I think your response is vague and doesn't clearly say anything. Please provide 'why' detail to your points.

I don't really see why it wasn't clear?

Libertarianism holds as its highest good the liberty (supposedly, I would say as Quintus does that it ultimately descends into license) of the individual. An individual should be free to do whatever he wants so long as he isn't interfering with the ability of others to do what they want.

Which sounds good, and it's a welcome principle within limits (If I had to pick a balance, society should be around 80-85% based on libertarian grounds), but the philosophy ultimately holds no standards of conduct for a society. Once the non-aggression principle is established, it's anything goes. All standards of culture, beauty, and decency are assumed to be irrelevant as long as individual automatons can be free.

By divorcing the individual from any hard social obligations in this way, you incentivize a race to the bottom. That's what we've been seeing in action for the past 50 or so years.

(06-11-2015 04:43 PM)Magnesium Chloride Wrote:  

What is wrong with this?

Why do American exceptionalists believe they are far more important than Indians?

Because we're talking about America. If we were talking about India it would be in much the same manner.

Quote:

Not to mention that even if you do not care about the welfare of Indians, besides the irrational hate of "the rich", Americans still gain far more than they lose. Sure the big companies gain. But so does everyone who interacts with them, the shareholders(there is your chance!), anyone who does business with them etc. The only people who lose are those who work inefficient jobs doing inefficient work(ie backwards thinking). But they only lose if they continue to not be efficient...

Funny, because real wages peaked all the way back in 1973. Median income has declined since then and poverty has increased. So no one except those with a lot of capital are really gaining.

[Magnesium Chloride]

(06-11-2015 04:57 PM)Libertas Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 04:43 PM)Magnesium Chloride Wrote:  

What is wrong with this?

Why do American exceptionalists believe they are far more important than Indians?

Because we're talking about America. If we were talking about India it would be in much the same manner.

If it was India it still would be smarter to take the foreigners side for the same reasons.

(06-11-2015 04:57 PM)Libertas Wrote:  

Quote:

Not to mention that even if you do not care about the welfare of Indians, besides the irrational hate of "the rich", Americans still gain far more than they lose. Sure the big companies gain. But so does everyone who interacts with them, the shareholders(there is your chance!), anyone who does business with them etc. The only people who lose are those who work inefficient jobs doing inefficient work(ie backwards thinking). But they only lose if they continue to not be efficient...

Funny, because real wages peaked all the way back in 1973. Median income has declined since then and poverty has increased. So no one except those with a lot of capital are really gaining.

Theres a thing called inflation and the value of the dollar which means the federal banks had been stealing ~6%/year off everyone who held money in the fiat currency. Heres a chart: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-s...lation-cpi

No wonder its hard to get money when 6% of your and everyone elses capital is stolen every year... Businesses who do well(or rather, decently) increase their stock price by ~8-10%/year including dividends(average returns for index funds). Which means any gains in productivity are near completely decimated.

[Libertas]

All of those things account for inflation.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(06-11-2015 04:43 PM)Magnesium Chloride Wrote:  

What is wrong with this?

Why do American exceptionalists believe they are far more important than Indians? The indians gain far more(chance to finally escape poverty contributing something useful) than american workers lose(they cannot earn money by leeching and working inefficient jobs anymore).

Why not let 3 billion people into the US and go compete for the jobs there? Every country has a responsibility to it's citizens first.

Otherwise it simply does not end. That argument is valid even if you do not pay social security to those immigrants. For almost all jobs you could find replacement elsewhere at a cheaper price. Why not let 50-80 million in just off the bat and see how many American workers can be replaced by someone in the world, who is willing to work for much less?

This is not some kind of extreme nationalism - this is simple common sense. You are making the same arguments that billionaire employers and social justice freaks make.

[Wadsworth]

Quote:

Which sounds good, and it's a welcome principle within limits (If I had to pick a balance, society should be around 80-85% based on libertarian grounds), but the philosophy ultimately holds no standards of conduct for a society. Once the non-aggression principle is established, it's anything goes.

As far as I'm concerned it holds that standards of conduct will originate organically through bottom up channels, as opposed to originating from activists infiltrating top down channels. The kooks who choose to live alternatively will be able to.

Quote:

All standards of culture, beauty, and decency are assumed to be irrelevant as long as individual automatons can be free.

This sounds more left wing than libertarian to me. Leftists are generally the ones who want to fight against and deconstruct the judgements of the dominant social standards/groups. Libertarians want to avoid being coerced through violence.

[Magnesium Chloride]

(06-11-2015 05:21 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

Why not let 3 billion people into the US and go compete for the jobs there? Every country has a responsibility to it's citizens first.

That is a highly nationalist argument, which I do not buy. Even if we take it to be true, that is only the responsibility of government... not individual businesses. If I were an American shareholder I would be pissed if companies were pandering to American inefficient workers as opposed to nonamericans.

(06-11-2015 05:21 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

Otherwise it simply does not end. That argument is valid even if you do not pay social security to those immigrants. For almost all jobs you could find replacement elsewhere at a cheaper price. Why not let 50-80 million in just off the bat and see if you cannot replace it with someone else in the world, who is willing to work for much less?

One- the immigrants only would want low wages when they are poor. But this is their way out of poverty. When they stop being poor, it is better for everyone- an example would be that bigger cities have more job opportunities and higher pay precisely because it has more workers.

As a worker you might try getting a job or finding work doing something more useful instead.

Two- what exactly do you want to "end"? Sure you can make the argument that you really want nations/countries to be culturally/racially homogeneous which is a decent argument.

That sorta makes sense... but a person who only cares about nationality/race even though others in the same group(nationality/race) have completely different viewpoints about economic/political views wants to drag them along "just because" seems highly twisted to me. Might as well have open borders and have mini cities/towns of clusters of people with the same ideology and no disagreements.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(06-11-2015 05:31 PM)Magnesium Chloride Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 05:21 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

Why not let 3 billion people into the US and go compete for the jobs there? Every country has a responsibility to it's citizens first.

That is a highly nationalist argument, which I do not buy. (?????????) Even if we take it to be true, that is only the responsibility of government... not individual businesses. If I were an American shareholder I would be pissed if companies were pandering to American inefficient workers as opposed to nonamericans.

Being proud of the fact and even wanting countries to be treated like corporations. I won't add anything to that, because it lacks any common sense whatsoever. Companies make money due to the purchasing ability of the very citizens. They want to sell them their products, but they don't want to pay taxes or hire them. So that is your idea?

Also if you are against nation states, then I wonder what you are doing on the forum. You were actually accusing me of "nationalism" as if that is terrible. Let me guess your next arguments: racist, misogynist, shitlord.

Let us best unite the entire world right now and "compete" the one worker making 1$/day with the one making 35$/hour. Even the competitive discrepancies within the EU were too wide for a unification. What makes you think that India, China and the US can be having a united labor market? I won't comment on your response anymore.

[Magnesium Chloride]

(06-11-2015 05:34 PM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 05:31 PM)Magnesium Chloride Wrote:  

That is a highly nationalist argument, which I do not buy. Even if we take it to be true, that is only the responsibility of government... not individual businesses. If I were an American shareholder I would be pissed if companies were pandering to American inefficient workers as opposed to nonamericans.

Being proud of the fact and even wanting countries to be treated like corporations. I won't add anything to that, because it lacks any common sense whatsoever.

Being proud of the fact that I dont let nationality blind me and wanting to help people who are less advantaged in life(And help them far more than I wouldve helped the Americans with less pay, to boot) as well as earning more money, working more efficiently and building a better future for myself lacks common sense? "Common" sense seems backwards.

[WalterBlack]

My experiences working in IT a long time ago in UK:

• Start date - I noticed that there was room full of FOB Indian men. I was told by a British guy that these guys are paid less than UK staff.
• 2 years later - I hear that my company is opening an office in Bangalore, India
• Another year later - I called into the director’s office, he says WalterBlack, “I’m sorry but we’re having cuts of UK staff. We’re letting go of people and transitioning work to India. We’re gonna have to let you go.”
  

The ironic thing about this is that my father moved from India in the UK to find work in the 1960s, and now the jobs are going back to India.
-----------------------------------------------
There’s definitely a downward pressure on salaries in the US. I work in finance now and I get called by agencies talking about roles about which pay less that what I made 7 years ago.
-----------------------------------------------
I had a H1-B visa, but I didn’t arrive in the US on a H1-B. I came as a student and after I graduated my employers filed for a Labour Certificate and H1-B.

The way they obtained my labor certificate is a total scam:

Labor Certification

Quote:

Requirement for U.S. employers seeking to employ certain persons whose immigration to the United States is based on job skills or nonimmigrant temporary workers coming to perform services for which qualified authorized workers are unavailable in the United States. Labor certification is issued by the Secretary of Labor and contains attestations by U.S. employers as to the numbers of U.S. workers available to undertake the employment sought by an applicant, and the effect of the alien’s employment on the wages and working conditions of U.S. workers similarly employed. Determination of labor availability in the United States is made at the time of a visa application and at the location where the applicant wishes to work.

The employers had to open my job up to the public to show that they 'tried' to hire an American.

To prove that no US resident could do my job, my employers looked at my resume and advertised my job with requirements that almost exactly matched my resume.

They made the requirements so specific that nobody could match it.

Was I the only guy who could do my job? No
Were there any Americans who could do my job? Of course there were!

[Magnesium Chloride]

(06-11-2015 05:19 PM)Libertas Wrote:  

All of those things account for inflation.

Was not saying people now are actually rich, but inflation hides it. I was saying inflation was causing them not to be rich.

[speakeasy]

(06-11-2015 04:43 PM)Magnesium Chloride Wrote:  

What is wrong with this?

Ask the programmers that got fired what was wrong with it? Obviously these people weren't incompetent programmers or they wouldn't have been asked to train the Indians to do their jobs. Disney operates in a first-world country, depends on first-world customers but doesn't want to pay its employees first-world wages while enjoying the benefits of doing business in the first world such as an affluent consumer base, stability, rule of law, safety, etc. And you think nothing is wrong with this picture?

Quote:

Why do American exceptionalists believe they are far more important than Indians? The indians gain far more(chance to finally escape poverty contributing something useful) than american workers lose(they cannot earn money by leeching and working inefficient jobs anymore).

What does this have to do with American exceptionalism? This is called protecting your nation's employment market. Why the hell do we owe India anything? Why should I give a shit about India or their poverty problems? America is a couple hundreds years old and created the most prosperous society on earth. India is a civilization going back thousands of years. I'd say they had a hell of a head start to create a prosperous nation and yet people are still shitting on sidewalks and bathing in the biohazardous Ganges river. Let them create their own opportunities there. We don't owe them a thing. What have they ever done for us?

Quote:

Not to mention that even if you do not care about the welfare of Indians, besides the irrational hate of "the rich", Americans still gain far more than they lose.

Americans gain by being replaced by cheap skilled labor from India? Please explain how this works.

Quote:

Sure the big companies gain. But so does everyone who interacts with them, the shareholders(there is your chance!), anyone who does business with them etc.

Really, so you think that programmer that lost his 6 figure job is going to make up for that in his stock portfolio? Thus it's all a wash? Lol.

Quote:

The only people who lose are those who work inefficient jobs doing inefficient work(ie backwards thinking). But they only lose if they continue to not be efficient...

How do you know those Disney programmers were doing inefficient work? So just because somebody somewhere in a third world country is working for a fraction of the wage that you are means you are inefficient? Well then let's just fire all working Americans tomorrow and bring in a few hundred million cheap foreigners to replace them. We can turn America into one big Odesk.

[Travesty]

America is not a welfare state for the world. We honestly don't need more immigration or 'culture' we can can read books, watch videos, and travel to experience them. We don't need more permanent residents.

The same people making the arguments of "don't care about race or nationality" are the ultimate "Get Yours" people that make this planet worse overall.

Brain draining your country and sending a check back while creating a cockfest and lowering everyone's wage potential in BOTH countries, the parasite and the host is not noble.

I've got first generation Indian family to my left and first generation Mexican to my right 8 each to a fucking 2 bedroom apartment. My taxes pay for those kids to use the school system and roads. God knows how much money the families get under the table and send back home. 10 kids running around in my front lawn everyday.

This is money taken away from my future family and prosperity. Screw these people.

[Peregrine]

I wonder how many people in this thread would have opposite views if globalization benefited them far more than nationalism did.

[Travesty]

Nationalism would benefit everyone if people actually knew how to get their nations' acts together.

By glorifying globalism you are saying those nations that cannot succeed within themselves are losers. Big fucking losers.

Why then can these individuals and nations not look into the mirror see the truth so they can change themselves?

If you are a fan of globalism you are saying your country and people are pieces of shit that can't function on a high level. Now that is truly sad.