[SlickyBoy]

(06-11-2015 09:10 AM)memcpy Wrote:  

Then you've got computers and robots replacing humans. Which in the video below shows, how companies are replacing jobs that require analyzing vast amounts of data and handing them over to computers. Eliminating the need for data analyst type jobs.

video covers:
-effects of smart cars on industries
-robots in hotel
-effects of tech on the middle-class
-future of tech
-cognitive "thinking" computers replacing workers

Companies will continue to outsource and automate business. Companies like Amazon couldn't live without automation and robots.

Effects of tech + outsourcing should be interesting in these coming years.

I think the same thing each time I read about immigration (illegal or H1B) - why do we need so many if the trend is towards LESS workers at all levels, not more? I guess for the time being, Republicrats want them for their own purposes - to make money off cheap labor (mostly Republicans, but plenty of Big Dems like Zuck and Gates) while securing the future of the Democrat party (Soros, Moore, et al.)

Coulter wrote a great piece about it.

Everyone bitches about Capitalism - all I see is well-connected socialists masquerading as free market types.

[Quintus Curtius]

I agree with the OP.

The abuses of the super-rich in the developed world are well-documented. It's all about concentrating more and more of the pie in their hands, to the detriment of everyone else. It's deeply destabilizing, and I've written on this subject before.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of immature, uninformed people who call themselves "conservatives" who eat up Fox News or neocon talking points, and think that all of this is somehow part of the "free market." Anyone who tries to voice a dissenting opinion is tagged as a "socialist" or some other name.

The power elites have brainwashed the average person to believe that not only is theft against the middle class and poor OK, but that it's part of the natural order of things. There are too many people who believe that if we just de-regulate everything, then it will all work out fine. Wrong.

Americans have, since the 1980s, systematically given up their economic and political rights. All of this was done under the banner of Reaganism, Bushism, Clintonism, and other forms of hyper-patriotism. Unions were dismantled, the political opposition was neutered, and the banking system was plundered for the sake of the rich.

We are now feeling the effects of all of this in the economic, political and cultural spheres.

Don't believe for one minute that even things like feminism and SJWism aren't related to this. They are.

Americans have lousy health care, lousy educational structures, and a shitty cultural landscape.

But it's all about the "free market"! How wonderful!

But hey, I'm just a "socialist", right?

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(06-11-2015 09:38 AM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

The power elites have brainwashed the average person to believe that not only is theft against the middle class and poor OK, but that it's part of the natural order of things. There are too many people who believe that if we just de-regulate everything, then it will all work out fine. Wrong.

Americans have, since the 1980s, systematically given up their economic and political rights. All of this was done under the banner of Reaganism, Bushism, Clintonism, and other forms of hyper-patriotism. Unions were dismantled, the political opposition was neutered, and the banking system was plundered for the sake of the rich.

Poof goes the middle class.

Quote:

Fifteen Steps to Corporate Feudalism: How the Rich Convinced America's Middle Class to Eliminate Themselves Kindle Edition

Excellent book and simple to do if you own all the propaganda arms.

Still - most leftist academia is not offering solutions either. They hark and snark against the ominous 1% while listening to the words of every billionaire out there who mentions income inequality. Meanwhile the same billionaire is financing further programs that eliminate middle class wealth and make him richer by a further few billions. "We love Apple and Starbucks, but we hate the big corporations!" They are like women who claim there is not going to be sex today.

[Disco_Volante]

not to get all religious on everyone, but...

it cuts to the core of what makes humans happy...

do you need a high standard of living to be happy?
a career? a decent car?

remember -- money, electricity, infrastructure, vehicles, etc are all human constructs. Humans lived for thousands of years at a primitive level without that stuff.

due to the success of the U.S., our expectations of being 'middle class' (which is probably rich to any other country or period of history) entails having a bunch of conveniences and food options.

First time I went to South America, I saw dirt poor people living in shit areas and they seemed relatively happy.

Perhaps mans' arrogance in technology is ironically bringing us back down to our primitive level (by not having a decent job to buy shit), we would institute more communist policies that would allow everyone to have a basic level of food stamps and housing while all other functions are automated by robots.

Your physical world is no longer what you want it to be ; you can't attain success like you want.

I believe the Amish already accept that God wants us to stay at a relatively primitive level, and anything more is vanity.

Perhaps man's lust for technology and 'progress' will leave most of us with nothing but our self and spiritual beliefs to keep us happy, and that's the point. Our faith in the material world will leave most of us disappointed

[It_is_my_time]

(06-11-2015 09:34 AM)MatineeMan Wrote:  

Americans are Indian ironically.

If Americans seriously care though you will stop supporting the 2 big plutocratic corporatist parties. Even with all the money the party machines need voters.

Stop voting until they change.

Yep, Gary Johnson was the best choice for President in 2012. If he runs again, he will again be the best choice.

[Zep]

(06-11-2015 09:56 AM)Disco_Volante Wrote:  

not to get all religious on everyone, but...

it cuts to the core of what makes humans happy...

do you need a high standard of living to be happy?
a career? a decent car?

remember -- money, electricity, infrastructure, vehicles, etc are all human constructs. Humans lived for thousands of years at a primitive level without that stuff.

due to the success of the U.S., our expectations of being 'middle class' (which is probably rich to any other country or period of history) entails having a bunch of conveniences and food options.

First time I went to South America, I saw dirt poor people living in shit areas and they seemed relatively happy.

Perhaps mans' arrogance in technology is ironically bringing us back down to our primitive level (by not having a decent job to buy shit), we would institute more communist policies that would allow everyone to have a basic level of food stamps and housing while all other functions are automated by robots.

Your physical world is no longer what you want it to be ; you can't attain success like you want.

I believe the Amish already accept that God wants us to stay at a relatively primitive level, and anything more is vanity.

Perhaps man's lust for technology and 'progress' will leave most of us with nothing but our self and spiritual beliefs to keep us happy, and that's the point. Our faith in the material world will leave most of us disappointed

The only way out of this trap that I've been able to think of is to get off of the grid.

Get a gun, a few tools, dig a hole, and live in it.

Living this way will ground the hell of you also. I bet mass neuroses would go down exponentially if people were forced to search for food in fresh air, using their bodies every day.

And it's MEN who can do this, not women, so women wouldn't like this mass migration of men off of the grid too much either.

You may think I'm talking nonsense, but I've heard two of the smartest guys I've met state that they want to get of the grid and live off of the land. They know how fucked Global Bankers and their employees are ( Corporations, Presidents, etc ).

Learn about the land around you, about trees, and medicinal plants, and hunting for food, etc. It's not THAT crazy you know. I was in high-school in the 80's and there was this weird kid who used to take-off into the local woods and live there, and this was in the suburbs with middle-class people, not a hippy community. He had zero reason to believe he could just go live in the woods, no-one encouraging him, he just did it.

Do not ever let these bastards think you can't live without them, you can, you're a man, maybe forced away from your natural state due to hyper-technology and other faggotry, but you can do it, it's in your DNA placed there by strong men, your fathers and grandfathers, and great-grandfathers, etc.

Here's a start to medicine needed...Urine, drink your own urine, check out the list of people who do this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine_therapy

Sorry to go off on this tangent, but, it's my way of combatting the powerlessness I feel upon viewing a game designed by Global Bankers that absolutely can not be won by you or me.

If I can't win the game they've asked me to play, oh well, take off into the woods, dig a hole and live in it then, lol.

[zombiejimmorrison]

(06-11-2015 08:55 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

Laissez-faire system was widely in place for a good century or more in many Western countries. It produced 70 hour workweeks and factory workers working in shoe factories while being unable to afford shoes.

I'm guessing you're talking about the industrial revolution here. Of course it had its problems but what your describing is not true. Life expectancy went up, real income wealth went up, population grew, technology got better. Most people where dirt poor before that, the only wealthy people were nobles. They did have child laborers and long hours but they always had that to some extent, the only difference is it actually gave normal people a disposable income.

Quote:

Libertarianism was likely designed & financed high above by the mega-wealthy as a fake alternative - and one that was already existing in reality.

Libertarianism is just a political philosophy that advocates for more freedom and autonomy from governments. The American definition of the word.

Quote:

Now to be fair I know where you are coming from - been there too myself at one time, but the people's idea of free market simply is a myth. Really free open markets work only in ridiculously small samples where furs, berries and simple products are exchanged in an economy without money.

Why without money you ask? Because the biggest control factor is the creation of money. If most money is created out of debt, then the ones holding the debt are owning it all.

There is always a monetary system in a free market, for example the gold standard. You're right that who ever controls money, controls the market. Fiat money is currency from governments, the US dollar was backed by gold and then backed by the government via a central bank.

In fact gold actually stops corruption and hyperinflation caused by printing money. Banks can't lend as much and governments are limited in their power. Money backed by governments always fails, average life span of fiat currency is 27 years. I'm not an expert in these matters far from it but everyone knows that the government is corrupt to the core and they are essentially immoral people who have the power that no one else has. They should always be limited, if not completely done away with and held to a high degree of scrutiny. Which is not the case in today's world. People think if only we get this person into government or elect this party into government, doesn't matter who you elect, corruption at the core of society will bare the fruit we have today. Limited into a Night-watchman state or non at all.

[Phoenix]

I'll submit my defence of the free-market as it seems to be getting the blame for everything.

Yes, you either favour a free-market or socialism. In either case, a certain top 1% of the population will have more. Only the nature and origin of that top 1% will change.

Under a free-market, where the government does not regulate, redistribute wealth, give special benefits to some groups and deny them to others, the top 1% are the best men. They are the most intelligent, assertive, risk-taking, high-energy, tenacious men in a productive capacity - since production is the battleground on which a man must win. It is a society of builders.

Under socialism and pure democracy, the top 1% are very different. They are the most cunning, deceitful, politically skillful, amoral, and intelligent. Their weapons are blackmail, lies, favours, and intimidation. The battlefield is personal domination and looting. It is a society of bandits in suits.

You can't have it both ways. Either you're in favour of a free society or a controlled society. If it is controlled, the rich and powerful will control it. They will hire (campaign contribute and lobby for) the best and most devious politicians, who will make you believe that they are going to be 'on your side', and in favour of 'change', and they will protect local workers rights, and help 'your group'. And your vote will not be a choice as to who or 'what' is in power, it will merely be a trophy to a subset of corporations and special interest groups, awarded to those most adept and well-invested in trickery.

This is not 'corruption', this is the system running exactly as would be expected. To demand that you have a group of people issuing regulations (the government) and there be none of this 'corruption' is to demand that it can be night and day at the same time.

And calling this result 'capitalism' or the 'free market', and blaming the rich, is false. Where is this free market? No matter how much government control over the economy, any problems are always blamed on the 'free market'. The crash of 2008 was, as always, blamed on financiers and the 'unbridled free market', not on government regulations and agencies, in spite of the banking and finance industry being the most regulated industry in the country. (It's also interesting that even though these people were blamed, they have in the end profited the most). It echos leftist sentiment around the time of the USSR's collapse - that it was not communism that had caused the countries economic condition, but that 'they had failed to completely get rid of capitalism'. This is consistent with the interests of the top 1% - the democratic machine in which they are so heavily invested must never be blamed, it must be the insufficient reach of that machine that must be blamed.

The rich will always exist. There will always be men in society with more money, more power, more sex, and more privileges. No amount of moral outrage will ever change this. It structural to our social and hierarchical species, and rooted in biology. Revolutions can only ever change the constitution through which the hierarchies are formed, and the traits that assign men to the top.

The solution to the social malaise can only come from constitutional change, and specifically a reduction of central democratic power.

Many people here claim that liberty is resulting in many of the problems we are seeing, such as moral degeneration and the loss of the middle-class. In reality, were you to restore liberty, you'd find those problems would vanish pretty quickly.

[spokepoker]

(06-11-2015 10:38 AM)Zep Wrote:  

The only way out of this trap that I've been able to think of is to get off of the grid.

Get a gun, a few tools, dig a hole, and live in it.

Living this way will ground the hell of you also. I bet mass neuroses would go down exponentially if people were forced to search for food in fresh air, using their bodies every day.

And it's MEN who can do this, not women, so women wouldn't like this mass migration of men off of the grid too much either.

You may think I'm talking nonsense, but I've heard two of the smartest guys I've met state that they want to get of the grid and live off of the land. They know how fucked Global Bankers and their employees are ( Corporations, Presidents, etc ).

Learn about the land around you, about trees, and medicinal plants, and hunting for food, etc. It's not THAT crazy you know. I was in high-school in the 80's and there was this weird kid who used to take-off into the local woods and live there, and this was in the suburbs with middle-class people, not a hippy community. He had zero reason to believe he could just go live in the woods, no-one encouraging him, he just did it.

Do not ever let these bastards think you can't live without them, you can, you're a man, maybe forced away from your natural state due to hyper-technology and other faggotry, but you can do it, it's in your DNA placed there by strong men, your fathers and grandfathers, and great-grandfathers, etc.

Here's a start to medicine needed...Urine, drink your own urine, check out the list of people who do this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urine_therapy

Sorry to go off on this tangent, but, it's my way of combatting the powerlessness I feel upon viewing a game designed by Global Bankers that absolutely can not be won by you or me.

If I can't win the game they've asked me to play, oh well, take off into the woods, dig a hole and live in it then, lol.

You also need to be aware of the laws of the area that you decide to do this in. It's illegal in some areas to not have basic utilities (sewer water etc), so you may need to figure out where you can actually do this.
And please, don't drink your godamn pee, that's emergency only, and a bad idea at that. Just go boil some water instead.

[ElBorrachoInfamoso]

(06-11-2015 08:48 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 07:59 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

If the American worker wants to force me to spend my money a certain way, screw him!

We all have to deal with competition. Screw this holier-than-thou false patriotism.

You shouldn't hire people of your own race/nationality etc. any more than you should date women your own age. These are just things that losers try to shame you into.

You are representative of the type of capitalist that would sell his own neighbor down the river to make a buck. Tell me why it's fair that H1B visas should be abused? You realize that these visas are for finding labor for jobs that can't be filled by locals, right? Not for firing workers and replacing them with foreigners.

I'm willing to pay more to ensure that Americans can have a first world standard of living.

You know nothing about me. You resort to personal attacks because you have no rational argument.

I am the type of capitalist who donates money to the type of poor community he came from.

H1B is screwed up, but it is certainly better than forcing businesses to hire only people born within a certain region or forcing them to offshore for cheaper labor. I'd rather do away with the program completely and allow anyone who isn't a violent criminal to accept any job in any country.

If you're willing to pay more for something, great! Pay for it! Keep your hand out of my pocket!

[It_is_my_time]

(06-11-2015 11:42 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 08:48 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 07:59 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

If the American worker wants to force me to spend my money a certain way, screw him!

We all have to deal with competition. Screw this holier-than-thou false patriotism.

You shouldn't hire people of your own race/nationality etc. any more than you should date women your own age. These are just things that losers try to shame you into.

You are representative of the type of capitalist that would sell his own neighbor down the river to make a buck. Tell me why it's fair that H1B visas should be abused? You realize that these visas are for finding labor for jobs that can't be filled by locals, right? Not for firing workers and replacing them with foreigners.

I'm willing to pay more to ensure that Americans can have a first world standard of living.

You know nothing about me. You resort to personal attacks because you have no rational argument.

I am the type of capitalist who donates money to the type of poor community he came from.

H1B is screwed up, but it is certainly better than forcing businesses to hire only people born within a certain region or forcing them to offshore for cheaper labor. I'd rather do away with the program completely and allow anyone who isn't a violent criminal to accept any job in any country.

If you're willing to pay more for something, great! Pay for it! Keep your hand out of my pocket!

You are putting your hand in our pockets by encouraging all this invasion of the labor market.

[El Chinito loco]

(06-11-2015 11:42 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 08:48 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 07:59 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

If the American worker wants to force me to spend my money a certain way, screw him!

We all have to deal with competition. Screw this holier-than-thou false patriotism.

You shouldn't hire people of your own race/nationality etc. any more than you should date women your own age. These are just things that losers try to shame you into.

You are representative of the type of capitalist that would sell his own neighbor down the river to make a buck. Tell me why it's fair that H1B visas should be abused? You realize that these visas are for finding labor for jobs that can't be filled by locals, right? Not for firing workers and replacing them with foreigners.

I'm willing to pay more to ensure that Americans can have a first world standard of living.

You know nothing about me. You resort to personal attacks because you have no rational argument.

I am the type of capitalist who donates money to the type of poor community he came from.

H1B is screwed up, but it is certainly better than forcing businesses to hire only people born within a certain region or forcing them to offshore for cheaper labor. I'd rather do away with the program completely and allow anyone who isn't a violent criminal to accept any job in any country.

If you're willing to pay more for something, great! Pay for it! Keep your hand out of my pocket!

This ultra libertarian principle doesn't take into consideration the government sweetheart deals, the special land grants, and taxpayer funded subsidies that all went into making these companies successful. Corporations just don't magically become a success. This has never been true in history. There was always some backer or government intervention which made it work.

There's a whole system of kickbacks, paybacks, and special interest loans which makes things happen. I'm doing business on a tiny scale and yet the principles are the same.

To turn your back completely on the country that made you and hire foreign labor and be willing fuck over people that helped you get there because you can shave a few expense percentage points off the gross is disgusting. If there was ever a definition of being a traitor then that is it.

[ElBorrachoInfamoso]

(06-11-2015 11:49 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

You are putting your hand in our pockets by encouraging all this invasion of the labor market.

What pocket? You mean the pocket of the person you want to force to hire you? That's not your pocket.

(06-11-2015 11:54 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

This ultra libertarian principle doesn't take into consideration the government sweetheart deals, the special land grants, and taxpayer funded subsidies that all went into making these companies successful. Corporations just don't magically become a success. This has never been true in history. There was always some backer or government intervention which made it work.

There's a whole system of kickbacks, paybacks, and special interest loans which makes things happen. I'm doing business on a tiny scale and yet the principles are the same.

I know people running start ups who have not taken one cent of government money, have no special grants, nothing. I'm not saying that most big businesses don't do that, but you can't generalize to all businesses that use H1B.

[Phoenix]

(06-11-2015 11:49 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

You are putting your hand in our pockets by encouraging all this invasion of the labor market.

This is like saying Uber is a 'thief' and steals from poor cabbies because people have the option of hiring them over a taxi.

[El Chinito loco]

(06-11-2015 11:59 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 11:49 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

You are putting your hand in our pockets by encouraging all this invasion of the labor market.

What pocket? You mean the pocket of the person you want to force to hire you? That's not your pocket.

(06-11-2015 11:54 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

This ultra libertarian principle doesn't take into consideration the government sweetheart deals, the special land grants, and taxpayer funded subsidies that all went into making these companies successful. Corporations just don't magically become a success. This has never been true in history. There was always some backer or government intervention which made it work.

There's a whole system of kickbacks, paybacks, and special interest loans which makes things happen. I'm doing business on a tiny scale and yet the principles are the same.

I know people running start ups who have not taken one cent of government money, have no special grants, nothing. I'm not saying that most big businesses don't do that, but you can't generalize to all businesses that use H1B.

How successful are those startups and how reflective of they are of the corporate culture that has existed for centuries now. They are exceptions to the rule. Even beloved Elon Musk soaks up a shitload of subsidy money for his projects.

I don't see how anyone who has an inkling of history doesn't recognize that flooding the nation with h1b visas is the 21st century version of strike breaking. It's a way to bust wages and prevent labor progression. It's so obvious that it's sad.

[It_is_my_time]

(06-11-2015 12:01 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 11:49 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

You are putting your hand in our pockets by encouraging all this invasion of the labor market.

This is like saying Uber is a 'thief' and steals from poor cabbies because people have the option of hiring them over a taxi.

They have this option because a few elites have paid off our elected officials to flood the market with cheap labor. This isn't a fair competition. It is people willing to work for far less because they can send their money back home and live like kings.

The end result will be the collapse of the middle class and soon after the collapse of the entire country. This will be a negative impact to everyone, except a few of the wealthy elites.

[Libertas]

(06-11-2015 11:12 AM)zombiejimmorrison Wrote:  

I'm guessing you're talking about the industrial revolution here. Of course it had its problems but what your describing is not true. Life expectancy went up, real income wealth went up, population grew, technology got better. Most people where dirt poor before that, the only wealthy people were nobles. They did have child laborers and long hours but they always had that to some extent, the only difference is it actually gave normal people a disposable income.

That's because as you said, it was all shit before that. That doesn't mean that what Zel said is false.

(06-11-2015 11:15 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

And calling this result 'capitalism' or the 'free market', and blaming the rich, is false. Where is this free market? No matter how much government control over the economy, any problems are always blamed on the 'free market'. The crash of 2008 was, as always, blamed on financiers and the 'unbridled free market', not on government regulations and agencies, in spite of the banking and finance industry being the most regulated industry in the country.

This is a false dichotomy. What needs to be discussed is what relevant regulations were lifted and whether the lifting of those said regulations contributed to the crash, not the total level of regulation.

As for "restoring liberty ending the degeneracy", I don't agree. It at least isn't that simple.

The logical end point of libertarianism is solipsism - you are the only thing that matters and you are an island unto yourself. This is essentially what ElBorrachoInfamoso is putting forward here. By stripping the individual from his community and putting him in a vacuum, you encourage vice, greed, and degeneracy. That is exactly what we are seeing now.

The individual is the backbone of society and must have freedom to pursue his life's goals, but there needs to be a recognition that he is part of a community, with responsibilities to that community's well-being, and we are not seeing that now.

[speakeasy]

(06-11-2015 11:54 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 11:42 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 08:48 AM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 07:59 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

If the American worker wants to force me to spend my money a certain way, screw him!

We all have to deal with competition. Screw this holier-than-thou false patriotism.

You shouldn't hire people of your own race/nationality etc. any more than you should date women your own age. These are just things that losers try to shame you into.

You are representative of the type of capitalist that would sell his own neighbor down the river to make a buck. Tell me why it's fair that H1B visas should be abused? You realize that these visas are for finding labor for jobs that can't be filled by locals, right? Not for firing workers and replacing them with foreigners.

I'm willing to pay more to ensure that Americans can have a first world standard of living.

You know nothing about me. You resort to personal attacks because you have no rational argument.

I am the type of capitalist who donates money to the type of poor community he came from.

H1B is screwed up, but it is certainly better than forcing businesses to hire only people born within a certain region or forcing them to offshore for cheaper labor. I'd rather do away with the program completely and allow anyone who isn't a violent criminal to accept any job in any country.

If you're willing to pay more for something, great! Pay for it! Keep your hand out of my pocket!

This ultra libertarian principle doesn't take into consideration the government sweetheart deals, the special land grants, and taxpayer funded subsidies that all went into making these companies successful. Corporations just don't magically become a success. This has never been true in history. There was always some backer or government intervention which made it work.

There's a whole system of kickbacks, paybacks, and special interest loans which makes things happen. I'm doing business on a tiny scale and yet the principles are the same.

To turn your back completely on the country that made you and hire foreign labor and be willing fuck over people that helped you get there because you can shave a few expense percentage points off the gross is disgusting. If there was ever a definition of being a traitor then that is it.

Correct, and this isn't even taking into account the effects it would have on a nation's culture. What would Sweden look like of millions of Pakistanis moved there for jobs? Sooner or later it would stop being Sweden and just another middle eastern country. It would destroy any sense of nation eventually. These free market libertarians ignore the fact that culture is a major factor. They only see countries as marketplaces and nothing more. Nothing matters to these people but money. Even if they have to sacrifice their nation.

[speakeasy]

(06-11-2015 12:01 PM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 11:49 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

You are putting your hand in our pockets by encouraging all this invasion of the labor market.

This is like saying Uber is a 'thief' and steals from poor cabbies because people have the option of hiring them over a taxi.

Not quite because Uber hires American drivers who they must pay a wage high enough to attract people to driving. Some cab drivers have even switched to Uber. Uber isn't importing millions of Indians driving cars for a fraction of the rate of a cab driver. That would be a more apt analogy.

[speakeasy]

(06-11-2015 11:59 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 11:49 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

You are putting your hand in our pockets by encouraging all this invasion of the labor market.

What pocket? You mean the pocket of the person you want to force to hire you? That's not your pocket.

(06-11-2015 11:54 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

This ultra libertarian principle doesn't take into consideration the government sweetheart deals, the special land grants, and taxpayer funded subsidies that all went into making these companies successful. Corporations just don't magically become a success. This has never been true in history. There was always some backer or government intervention which made it work.

There's a whole system of kickbacks, paybacks, and special interest loans which makes things happen. I'm doing business on a tiny scale and yet the principles are the same.

I know people running start ups who have not taken one cent of government money, have no special grants, nothing. I'm not saying that most big businesses don't do that, but you can't generalize to all businesses that use H1B.

Thing is you take a company like Disney, they benefit from setting up and doing business in a first world country. They business depends on having first world people with disposable income who can afford to fly to their theme parks, spend hundreds on tickets, buy their movies and merchandise, etc. Yet as profitable as they are, they don't feel any obligation to provide a first world wage. They want have their cake and eat it too. How can anyone look at the logic of this and not see that it is ultimately self-destructive? To have a first world country, people need to earn first world wages. For Disney to exist, they need a consumer base of first world earners. India is not consuming their products and keeping them in business, it's Americans. Just imagine what would happen if companies started duplicating this model on a mass scale? What would that do to the middle class? None of this matters to you?

[Phoenix]

Libertas, I think your response is vague and doesn't clearly say anything. Please provide 'why' detail to your points.

[lemko]

(06-11-2015 12:37 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 11:59 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

(06-11-2015 11:49 AM)It_is_my_time Wrote:  

You are putting your hand in our pockets by encouraging all this invasion of the labor market.

What pocket? You mean the pocket of the person you want to force to hire you? That's not your pocket.

(06-11-2015 11:54 AM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

This ultra libertarian principle doesn't take into consideration the government sweetheart deals, the special land grants, and taxpayer funded subsidies that all went into making these companies successful. Corporations just don't magically become a success. This has never been true in history. There was always some backer or government intervention which made it work.

There's a whole system of kickbacks, paybacks, and special interest loans which makes things happen. I'm doing business on a tiny scale and yet the principles are the same.

I know people running start ups who have not taken one cent of government money, have no special grants, nothing. I'm not saying that most big businesses don't do that, but you can't generalize to all businesses that use H1B.

Thing is you take a company like Disney, they benefit from setting up and doing business in a first world country. They business depends on having first world people with disposable income who can afford to fly to their theme parks, spend hundreds on tickets, buy their movies and merchandise, etc. Yet as profitable as they are, they don't feel any obligation to provide a first world wage. They want have their cake and eat it too. How can anyone look at the logic of this and not see that it is ultimately self-destructive? To have a first world country, people need to earn first world wages. For Disney to exist, they need a consumer base of first world earners. India is not consuming their products and keeping them in business, it's Americans. Just imagine what would happen if companies started duplicating this model on a mass scale? What would that do to the middle class? None of this matters to you?

What you would end up with is a lot of nice goods and services that nobody can buy. Those Indian workers are too poor too buy them with the crummy wages they get. Everybody else is trying to make a subsistence living on whatever they can beg, borrow, or steal.

[kaotic]

So what the fuck can we do ?

Corpos run the country and we're getting fucked.

What now ? There is no simple solution.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(06-11-2015 01:49 PM)kaotic Wrote:  

So what the fuck can we do ?

Corpos run the country and we're getting fucked.

What now ? There is no simple solution.

Educate yourself. Be aware of the scams out there.

And the paradox is that the next step is to make money - as much as you can reaching 10 mio. $ + if possible and not wasting it on dumb stuff.

There is nothing that we can do. For any change a huge number of the population would have to become aware of the major scams and I simply don't see it happening. Even such large grassroots movements like the 'sphere / Neomasculinity / Red Pill are highly divided and diverse. And this kind of movement is actually very simple for men. Any political or economic change is 100 times more difficult.

So - no - we can all mentally masturbate around here, but in the end we are left doing what the other bloke is doing, just more aware, trying to become more independent in terms of income as well.

[Phoenix]

I suppose the obvious answer is 'become a corpo', or find a country to go where the government is less scummy.