[zayfran]

(04-20-2015 02:18 PM)amity Wrote:  

'White guilt' is the go to phrase but 'Colonial guilt' might be a more accurate term for this.

This doesn't make much sense . These terms are not inter-changeable.

There is slavery guilt which refers to Caucasian-Americans treating African-Americans as second class citizens for the better part of 3 centuries , there is colonial-slavery guilt that the Belgians have wherein the violent methods used such as the chopping of African limbs for not meeting daily quotas led to an environment where violence on such a scale became desensitized leading to modern day Congo as we know it. We then have 'colonial guilt' which was nothing more than economic warfare where in a Britain which was still White imported raw material at knock down prices from it's colonies , manufactured items in Britain (i.e jobs for White Britishers) and sold them at inflated prices back to their colonies (artificially creating false markets). The galling part about all this is that there are still stolen artifacts from India and China lying in on British shores and the English and various other colonial powers still haven't acknowledged their roles in some of the darkest periods in human history.

Thankfully , here in America even though racism might be on the level of Europe we understand we are all immigrants and we are all welcome. Some of the Euro dudes talking about immigration in isolation without discussing historical factors of their so called supreme white societies that have led to all this need their head checked.

[Lizard King]

(04-21-2015 01:30 AM)zayfran Wrote:  

Thankfully , here in America even though racism might be on the level of Europe we understand we are all immigrants and we are all welcome. Some of the Euro dudes talking about immigration in isolation without discussing historical factors of their so called supreme white societies that have led to all this need their head checked.

I disagree. Racial problems, discrimination, etc. are much more prevalent in the US. The Europe is relatively chilled compared to the US and has far less racial problems. This is down to historical factors, such as the US having a racially segregated society within the last 60-70 years, and other reasons.

It isn't being discussed in complete isolation, there is enough context and background to this particular discussion. I find the discussions on this forum to be far higher quality than average internet discussions.

(04-21-2015 01:30 AM)zayfran Wrote:  

Thank you for some much needed balance in this thread.

Some of the rubbish being posted here by pseudo western-supremacists is so ridiculous and inaccurate that I'm certain Tarantino would've loved to incorporate it into Django Unchained.

A globalized multi-polar world where in divisions among the first / third world will become somewhat void is coming. Till we achieve this equilibrium the 'West' will have a decline in living standards. This is not because of Christian supremacy or whatever , it is simply because for the last 500 years we had created a bubble with the White race enslaving and raping the Blacks , colonizing countries to create false markets and breaking the back-bone of the #1 and #2 civilizations at that time China and India.

All the doomsday crap about an upcoming dystopia is just that. Crap spouted from fools like Krauser. There will be teething problems for sure but ultimately it will be better for human civilization.

Couldn't even be arsed to go into the economic benefits of immigration.

You should address whatever it is you feel is wrong in this discussion, instead of making passive-aggressive remarks. We won't cry if someone disagrees with us or has different views.

Different points of view add a lot to any discussion, and they broaden the perspective of those involved. Don't be quiet.

[Tuthmosis]

Moderator Action:

I came in to find the reported posts in the double digits for this thread.

Over a month's worth of warnings (37 days) have been distributed in appropriate increments to the following race trolls members, in no particular order:

• Sp5
• Disco_Volante
• Zelcorpion
• Blick Mang
• sixsix
• Cunnilinguist
• Feisbook Control
• One newbie (banned)
  

Many of these kind gentlemen are usual suspects, whose habitual race/religion trolling (either outright or subtle) is putting them at risk of a permanent ban on warning levels. If/when you see a line through their names, in other words, know that it's as a result of a pattern--often of warning and failing to heed warnings--and not a single arbitrary action.

I'm also starting to realize there's a new type of trolling that's clearly visible in this thread: Doomsday Trolling. This seems to be a hybrid of the race, immigration, and religion trolling of old, simmered in a broth of political trolling (often seasoned with a semi-intellectual babble).

[infowarrior1]

(04-21-2015 02:30 AM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

Moderator Action:

I came in to find the reported posts in the double digits for this thread.

Over a month's worth of warnings (37 days) have been distributed in appropriate increments to the following race trolls members, in no particular order:

• Sp5
• Disco_Volante
• Zelcorpion
• Blick Mang
• sixsix
• Cunnilinguist
• Feisbook Control
• One newbie (banned)
  

Many of these kind gentlemen are usual suspects, whose habitual race/religion trolling (either outright or subtle) is putting them at risk of a permanent ban on warning levels. If/when you see a line through their names, in other words, know that it's as a result of a pattern--often of warning and failing to heed warnings--and not a single arbitrary action.

I'm also starting to realize there's a new type of trolling that's clearly visible in this thread: Doomsday Trolling. This seems to be a hybrid of the race, immigration, and religion trolling of old, simmered in a broth of political trolling (often seasoned with a semi-intellectual babble).

Thanks for that. I used to often see people with lines through their names without knowing the reason for the ban. Good thing you are doing this now.

[space]

I don't know how people see this as a Jewish conspiracy. The world has a population problem, where developed countries produce fewer offspring and poor countries become massively overpopulated. Look at Japan; their population is in precipitous decline and no Jewish people pulling the strings there.

I feel sorry for the Italians. Illegal immigration should be a euro-wide issue but the Italians are being left to deal with this alone. That's not right.

The rest is a simple case of supply and demand. Poor countries have an oversupply of cheap human labour/Rich countries has the demand for cheap labour to keep the ecomonies growing.

As an aside -- the UK has had some of the highest rates of immigration anywhere in europe, both from within the EU and from Africa/Middle-east and Asia, yet the economy is growing and unemployment figures are at record lows.

Its not all doom and gloom.

[zombiejimmorrison]

It's really simple and probably why its so over looked, the reason the government brings in third world immigrants is because of votes. Third world immigrants vote for more government, mostly of the left persuasion and readily consume welfare which allows more government taxing and more growth.

A politician regardless of race, especially of the left spectrum would vote to bring in more migrants. Jew conspiracy or white hate don't even factor in. Most politicians of white countries are themselves white, governments seek to grow and have found the perfect source of growth through third world immigrants.

How can a Conservative party win against a leftist one when they have a massive influx of migrant votes. Although I'll add that Jews have been a strong force for communism (Marx, Lennon, Trotsky), which is why white nationalists attribute a lot of hate towards them.

[space]

Immigrants do tend to vote for left leaning govts. But its wrong to say that its because of welfare or handouts. Most immigrants work extremely hard -- often in jobs they are overqualified for. They do work that locals would not do; this has been proven time and time again, whether its seasonal farm work in England or cleaning and landscaping in California. Immigrants do this work while the natives claim benefits.

Conservative govts can gain more immigrant votes simply by being more aspirational and less fear-mongering. Immigrants will vote for the party of low taxes and flexible business because a lot of the time immigrants are aspirational and entrepreneurial themselves.

[amity]

(04-21-2015 01:30 AM)zayfran Wrote:  

(04-20-2015 02:18 PM)amity Wrote:  

'White guilt' is the go to phrase but 'Colonial guilt' might be a more accurate term for this.

This doesn't make much sense . These terms are not inter-changeable.

There is slavery guilt which refers to Caucasian-Americans treating African-Americans as second class citizens for the better part of 3 centuries , there is colonial-slavery guilt that the Belgians have wherein the violent methods used such as the chopping of African limbs for not meeting daily quotas led to an environment where violence on such a scale became desensitized leading to modern day Congo as we know it. We then have 'colonial guilt' which was nothing more than economic warfare where in a Britain which was still White imported raw material at knock down prices from it's colonies , manufactured items in Britain (i.e jobs for White Britishers) and sold them at inflated prices back to their colonies (artificially creating false markets). The galling part about all this is that there are still stolen artifacts from India and China lying in on British shores and the English and various other colonial powers still haven't acknowledged their roles in some of the darkest periods in human history.

Thankfully , here in America even though racism might be on the level of Europe we understand we are all immigrants and we are all welcome. Some of the Euro dudes talking about immigration in isolation without discussing historical factors of their so called supreme white societies that have led to all this need their head checked.

I see you're new to the forum here, so I know it takes a little while to get a feel for how things work around here.
You're reading a little bit too much into my statement, no need to overanalyse it.
To clarify, I'm not saying these terms are interchangeable, per se.
And I'm not saying that I personally or RVF people think this way.
I'm providing an idea of the type of reasoning behind the kind of suicidal altruism shown by some people of WASP background towards people from traditionally less well off nationalities or cultures.
That's all, nothing more.

[Libertas]

(04-20-2015 11:40 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

The libertarian theories of 'immigration is good' are woefully oversimplified and naive - and I otherwise agree with 95% of their ideas. They simply brush off the entire concept of nations and states as superfluous. To them a government simply 'should' be a certain thing, and if you 'should' it hard enough, it will just magically become like that. They don't understand that its formation stems from the natural law of mankind, just like everything else.

That's libertarianism's biggest weakness. The ideology basically believes that everything can be reduced down to economics and nothing matters besides individual automatons acting in an economy. In fact you could describe it as "all within the market, nothing outside the market, nothing against the market" or "as long as the non-aggression principle is followed everything else is irrelevant."

They simply don't understand that there is more to human life than economics and that there are more esoteric things that are important to mankind.

And curiously, this worldview is rather similar to Marxism, but with the polar opposite prescriptions. While this may sound odd, it makes sense when you realize that libertarianism and Marxism both spring from the same Enlightenment egalitarian/universalist ideas (as Sp5 calls them).

I wonder if I should do a series of posts about this, because I've been on both sides of the fence with regards to libertarianism - I used to be an out and out AnCap in my early 20's, so I have a pretty wide viewpoint on the ideology.

There's no doubt that libertarian ideas are very conducive to a flourishing society, but it's that last 15 or 20% where it starts to break down into absurdity.

(04-21-2015 05:57 AM)space Wrote:  

I don't know how people see this as a Jewish conspiracy. The world has a population problem, where developed countries produce fewer offspring and poor countries become massively overpopulated. Look at Japan; their population is in precipitous decline and no Jewish people pulling the strings there.

There's too many people in the world already for the resources presently available. Japan is actually doing the smart thing and shrinking. World population is expected to peak around 2050 last I checked, and then it will begin to decline everywhere.

You can't run on credit and immigration forever.

I really don't understand the Jewish conspiracy thing either, though admittedly they occupy positions of power disproportionately. Doesn't say anything on its own.

As a matter of fact I sort of view it as a distinctly right-wing flavor of Cultural Marxism - privileged class versus oppressor class. In this case it's the privileged Jews oppressing the poor, poor goyim. Oh, the Jewish patriarchy!

[zombiejimmorrison]

(04-20-2015 11:40 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

The libertarian theories of 'immigration is good' are woefully oversimplified and naive - and I otherwise agree with 95% of their ideas. They simply brush off the entire concept of nations and states as superfluous. To them a government simply 'should' be a certain thing, and if you 'should' it hard enough, it will just magically become like that. They don't understand that its formation stems from the natural law of mankind, just like everything else.

If we have a genuinely free society and free association without government repercussions. Why would it matter where you come from, America was built on migrants from all over Europe and China. A nation, state or government, however its called is just a group of individuals at the top with the legal right to initiate force while simultaneously being banned for everyone else. "Natural law of mankind" what does that mean exactly, slavery was considered a natural law of nature at one point and now its considered immoral. Everything a human thinks would come from our human nature.

(04-21-2015 07:35 AM)Libertas Wrote:  

That's libertarianism's biggest weakness. The ideology basically believes that everything can be reduced down to economics and nothing matters besides individual automatons acting in an economy. In fact you could describe it as "all within the market, nothing outside the market, nothing against the market" or "as long as the non-aggression principle is followed everything else is irrelevant."

They simply don't understand that there is more to human life than economics and that there are more esoteric things that are important to mankind.

You say libertarians think everything is reduced down to economics and nothing matters but people working like machines without any other hobbies or goals. Sounds no different to the current world, without participating in an economy you'll be living by yourself in the middle of no where, regardless of social system.

Marxists are the one obsessed with class and the proletariat. Libertarians as far I know just don't want to be taxed and have their property stolen by other people.

(04-21-2015 07:35 AM)Libertas Wrote:  

And curiously, this worldview is rather similar to Marxism, but with the polar opposite prescriptions. While this may sound odd, it makes sense when you realize that libertarianism and Marxism both spring from the same Enlightenment egalitarian/universalist ideas (as Sp5 calls them).

This sounds a little absurd, libertarianism is against the initiation of force and violation of property right and both are considered immoral.

Marxism is absolute social engineering and stealing from people. The initiation of force is a tenant and private property rights don't exist

(04-21-2015 07:35 AM)Libertas Wrote:  

I wonder if I should do a series of posts about this, because I've been on both sides of the fence with regards to libertarianism - I used to be an out and out AnCap in my early 20's, so I have a pretty wide viewpoint on the ideology.

There's no doubt that libertarian ideas are very conducive to a flourishing society, but it's that last 15 or 20% where it starts to break down into absurdity.

I'd be interested in seeing your viewpoint against libertarians, Anarcho-capitalism

[Grange]

(04-20-2015 10:37 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

Quote:

Between 1930 and 1932, Brüning tried to reform the Weimar Republic without a parliamentary majority, governing, when necessary, through the President's emergency decrees. In line with the contemporary economic theory (subsequently termed "leave-it-alone liquidationism"), he enacted a draconian policy of deflation, drastically cutting state expenditure.[1] Among other measures, he completely halted all public grants to the obligatory unemployment insurance introduced in 1927, resulting in workers making higher contributions and fewer benefits for the unemployed. Benefits for the sick, invalid and pensioners were also reduced sharply.[40] Additional difficulties were caused by the different deflationary policies pursued by Brüning and the Reichsbank, Germany's central bank.[41]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Repu...der_Weimar

The section you quoted fails to distinguish between fiscal and monetary policy. The monetary "draconian policy of deflation" may or may not have been appropriate despite the writer's obvious bias. This is separate from the fiscal policy of cutting state expenditures on unemployment insurance, which the writer also implies is bad but might be necessary too. It's hard to say without a lot of data. Did the laender have their own programs?

Large scale economic situations are poorly understood by most people, especially by the left-wing activists who write about them on Wikipedia. Conflating monetary and fiscal policy is a bad sign for that section's reliability. I notice that since you quoted it, it's been changed.

Quote:

Personally I espouse to economic realities and potential reforms by Realcurrencies https://realcurrencies.wordpress.com/ or this guy: https://name789.wordpress.com/. In essence it's interest free money creation and plenty of capital & liquidity provided to the small & middle class business. Under social credit you don't even need welfare since it becomes a form of money creation, but everyone gets it, but there should be other measures connected to it as well.

Do you have an economics background? Don't take this personally but that first blogger seems like a crank and I would like to hear why you agree with him. (Can't get a read on the second one in the time I have available.)

[Quintus Curtius]

I only recently went through this thread in detail and the related thread about the "moderator role." I would have posted this comment there, but since it's a closed thread, I'll just post it here.

The point of my comment is to express my support and thanks to Tuthmosis as moderator. He had asked for some feedback and I wanted to do it both publicly and privately.

I've already told him that I think he's doing a kick-ass job, and now I wanted to tell the rest of you guys the same thing.

This is the only forum that I've been a member of, but from what I see it's a ship as tightly run as any could be. That is a big achievement. We need to be mindful of that.

Tuthmosis and Roosh are a great team together, and each complements the other's personality very, very well. You can just feel it, as the pistons in the RVF main engine room hum.

All in all, Tuth does a fantastic job. This is a hard, hard job. Why is it hard? Let's look at the ways:

1. Communicating on the internet in a forum format is not easy. With person-to-person communication, you can get all of those non-verbal "tells." You can sort of calibrate your opinions with body language and other ways. But there's none of that on the internet. All you have is a series of sentences and a flood of avatar photos.

It takes a very perceptive person to sift through all this and try to discern the meaning of a post, the sincerity behind it, and other things like that.

2. The moderator is going to take heat no matter what he does. People are not naturally social animals. They don't like to have constraints put on their behavior. They don't like to be told what they can, and cannot, do. Least of all a group of testosterone-laden guys in their 20s, 30s, and 40s (that last number was a piece of vanity on my part).

3. We forum members are not exactly normal, let's face it. I include myself in this label. I don't mean this in a negative way. We have strongly held opinions, and like to express them.

4. He's going to laugh when he reads this, but I think Tuthmosis is often very misunderstood. He's very misunderstood, in fact. He's a guy who's obviously proficient with computers, graphics, and related things, and likes to use "gifs" as way of enhancing his communications. That's it. There is no ulterior motive there. There's nothing to be read into this at all. He gets no joy out of banning people or or warning them. The use of gifs is just his way of taking the edge off of the unpleasantness of the task.


5. You have to appreciate that Tuthmosis is trying to help run a large organization here. I don't think a lot of guys here really understand what that means, because they've not been in similar positions of responsibility. Trying to keep some order in this internet chaos of men means that sometimes you have to err on the side of rigorous enforcement.

I mean this: the rules need to be on the strict side.

Most of us already know that certain subjects here are taboo, or quasi-taboo. They are:

P4P
Race trolling
Religion trolling
Attacking other members
Rejection of the community's core values

Of course the moderators understand that many guys here are going to want to talk about these things. Or they're going to talk about them privately.

But without a firm rule in place forbidding certain lines from being crossed, there would be chaos. Suppose, for example, that the moderators even once let their guard down and allowed threads on P4P or race-hate mongering. The result would be chaos.

Tuthmosis is very fastidious about his forum. He would have made a great executive officer aboard a naval vessel. He takes pride in it and will not allow dunces and knaves to ruin the years of effort he and Roosh have put into this project.

This is why, for example, he hates "text speak": he realizes that if the rule against text speak were relaxed, then every other poster would be speaking like a teenage girl on her smartphone. He will not allow this. He takes words seriously, as they are his stock-in-trade, and expects other to show the same degree of care with the language that he shows.

So, that's why a firm hand is needed from the moderator. Some guys don't like to hear this. Some guys don't want to hear this. They find it somehow insulting to be told that groups and crowds have certain dynamics that individuals do not.

But they would be mistaken. In the management of large groups of men, a firm hand is necessary. Strict rules are necessary. Otherwise, people would slowly corrode the limits of restraint, and gradually a descent into mudslinging chaos would be the outcome.

What can we members do to make his job easier? I've had to train myself to do the following:

1. Realize that the internet distorts communication. Things get magnified that you might not want to be magnified. Without the non-verbal cues of face-to-face contact, realize that all the moderator has to go on is your grammar and sentence structure.

2. Don't post in a rage. You'll regret it.

3. Give other people time to get to know you. Don't try to do too much, too fast. You don't need to prove anything to anyone.

4. Sarcasm and anger do not play well on the internet. Even if you think something is mild, it comes across much more strongly to the reader.

So there it is. I wanted to put my thanks to the moderator out there.

Tuthmosis, you're doing a great job. I'm glad you're there.

Q

[Samseau]

(04-20-2015 03:31 AM)Magnesium Chloride Wrote:  

Labor force participation rate at all time lows, this guy is a hack job. Immigration has lead to permanent unemployment for millions upon millions of Americans.

[Constitution45]

(04-21-2015 05:57 AM)space Wrote:  

I don't know how people see this as a Jewish conspiracy. The world has a population problem, where developed countries produce fewer offspring and poor countries become massively overpopulated. Look at Japan; their population is in precipitous decline and no Jewish people pulling the strings there.

I feel sorry for the Italians. Illegal immigration should be a euro-wide issue but the Italians are being left to deal with this alone. That's not right.

The rest is a simple case of supply and demand. Poor countries have an oversupply of cheap human labour/Rich countries has the demand for cheap labour to keep the ecomonies growing.

As an aside -- the UK has had some of the highest rates of immigration anywhere in europe, both from within the EU and from Africa/Middle-east and Asia, yet the economy is growing and unemployment figures are at record lows.

Its not all doom and gloom.

Well this is the main issue, Western European nations are massively outsourcing a vital function of their economy to poorer countries and their populations. On paper this benefits the economy but in the long term you are altering the concept of that nation's sovereignty by importing in en masse what is essentially another population.

For many years in the U.K, politicians and the media told British people that you shouldn't have to work hard. You can just get a degree and glide into an office job. On top of this they pushed minimum wage and higher salaries. Of course this was just populism and it later became evident when they turned around and told them that you will have to compete with Easterners who are willing to work for very low wages.

[amity]

(04-25-2015 03:25 AM)Constitution45 Wrote:  

(04-21-2015 05:57 AM)space Wrote:  

I don't know how people see this as a Jewish conspiracy. The world has a population problem, where developed countries produce fewer offspring and poor countries become massively overpopulated. Look at Japan; their population is in precipitous decline and no Jewish people pulling the strings there.

I feel sorry for the Italians. Illegal immigration should be a euro-wide issue but the Italians are being left to deal with this alone. That's not right.

The rest is a simple case of supply and demand. Poor countries have an oversupply of cheap human labour/Rich countries has the demand for cheap labour to keep the ecomonies growing.

As an aside -- the UK has had some of the highest rates of immigration anywhere in europe, both from within the EU and from Africa/Middle-east and Asia, yet the economy is growing and unemployment figures are at record lows.

Its not all doom and gloom.

Well this is the main issue, Western European nations are massively outsourcing a vital function of their economy to poorer countries and their populations. On paper this benefits the economy but in the long term you are altering the concept of that nation's sovereignty by importing in en masse what is essentially another population.

For many years in the U.K, politicians and the media told British people that you shouldn't have to work hard. You can just get a degree and glide into an office job. On top of this they pushed minimum wage and higher salaries. Of course this was just populism and it later became evident when they turned around and told them that you will have to compete with Easterners who are willing to work for very low wages.

@Constitution45 Exactly. You will rarely hear this narrative line from a politician or a person in a position of considerable power in society. So it's left to some commentators on the Right to point this out (like Mark Steyn for instance).
He tends to get painted as alarmist by much of mainstream media but from having seen quite a few of his interviews and articles, the guy knows what he's talking about.
It's a shame there's not more people of his ilk in the corridors of power.
The current head in the sand approach of many Social Democratic Governments is a slowly unfolding disaster.
There are signs that some people are waking up to what is happening but it's not enough.
Obama, Hollande, Merkel, they're determined to sleepwalk their countries and traditional Western society into oblivion.

[mikado]

Suppose that

- I paid my way to Europe/USA to study
- I paid the same tuition fees foreigners had (often more, since I could not qualify for a grant from the country, as my parents weren't living there)
- I followed the same classes, and (presumably) acquired the same skills
- I became overqualified for A LOT of jobs in my country of origin (pretty likely situation)
- I can compete in terms of skills with a native.
You really think I shouldn't deserve a chance in the employment market?

I only speak for those I can relate to (immigrants in "critical fields" like computer studies, engineering, etc...) . For me, someone who manage to get a degree in those, good internship results, competes at the top with other natives, etc, should get a chance to work in the country he completed his studies. Especially since for example in France a lot of companies just refuse outright to hire foreigners from outside European Union (even Americans sometimes) because they think (unjustifiedly) that it will be an administrative hassle to justify the hire (sometimes that's the case, but if they really want you it will go smoothly) .

If a company goes out of its way to hire you, a foreigner, then I think it's because you have what it takes to work there.
The argument of the low wage that foreigners take may still held for the "poorer" jobs, relatively without a high level of studies/qualifications to exerce them, but when a relatively big company needs to recruit an engineer, I doubt they will take a foreigner just because he might ask for 2000 euros per month less than a native.

In particular, for jobs where you don't need a degree after 5+ years of studies, pay to follow a special training or something similar, (examples: cleaning maid, construction worker, low-wages ones in general) i can see why immigrants might be a problem. But complaining that your neighbour in college who busted his ass in honing his computer skills which earned him a spot in a top notch company , whereas you could not get to his level, is taking a job from you? Give me a break, and work your ass off to get better.

At a certain ladder, companies will ALWAYS favor a native over an immigrant, EXCEPT when that immigrant is in a completely higher level.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(04-25-2015 06:56 AM)mikado Wrote:  

At a certain ladder, companies will ALWAYS favor a native over an immigrant, EXCEPT when that immigrant is in a completely higher level.

As a matter of fact corporations and the plutocracy welcomes the highly qualified immigrant even more - not because of a lack of workers, but due to their existence they love the wage pressure created by them. Otherwise incomes would have to rise much more.

So even in industries/fields where you have very low unemployment of 4% it's more beneficial for them to get an influx of highly qualified competition.

Personally I know some companies who for example complained about a lack of workers, but then when I talked with the so-called desired specialists it turned out that there were plenty of them, but the real reason was that those workers suddenly found themselves in the advantage and the companies simply did not want to raise wages. Ah - it's such a wonderful world indeed.....

However we should get it out of our heads to accuse the immigrants here. They react to market forces beyond their control either looking for pure survival or a better decent life.

The big scourge of our times is our predatory system of usury and the hereby concentrated power structure that works to perpetuate the rule of the plutocracy - part of it is ultimately self-destructive to a great degree. These are forces beyond the merits of immigration. Our discussions about it won't matter. It's about as useful as debating which pre-selected presidential candidate is better for the country. Will you elect our fake leader 1 or our fake leader 2? Pick and choose while we lie to you about almost anything.

Ultimately opportunities still exist in our world and let us better concentrate on taking them as long as it's possible.

[Saga]

This is a massive issue and one that no one in charge seems capable of handling. The EU is, through its indecision and a broken moral compass that's spinning like a top, being played for fools by human traffickers whose casual disregard for basic human decency rivals the slave traders of the old middle passage. Recent reports have indicated that most of the traffickers no longer even bother giving their boats (and I use that term with extreme charity) sufficient fuel to reach European shores...they simply wait until the overcrowded hulks run out of fuel halfway there before informing the European authorities in the firm knowledge that they'll try to rescue the passengers (and while their plight in those moments can and should elicit one's sympathy, we shouldn't forget that most of them are far from innocent in all this, as few of them appear to be genuine refugees) and promptly bring them to Europe.

What's even more baffling is that Australia has already admirably demonstrated what's necessary to end this crisis: save them, then refuse to let them in and broadcast this uncompromising policy throughout the region. Until the EU does this or something similar, it is effectively abetting some of the most odious criminals on the planet, as well as indirectly contributing to the undermining of European borders and by extension Europe herself.

What a mess.

(04-25-2015 06:56 AM)mikado Wrote:  

Suppose that

- I paid my way to Europe/USA to study
- I paid the same tuition fees foreigners had (often more, since I could not qualify for a grant from the country, as my parents weren't living there)
- I followed the same classes, and (presumably) acquired the same skills
- I became overqualified for A LOT of jobs in my country of origin (pretty likely situation)
- I can compete in terms of skills with a native.
You really think I shouldn't deserve a chance in the employment market?

Certainly you should, provided you progress towards integrating with the culture of your new homeland, and provided that that country exercises the right to dictate who can and can't enter in the first place (a right accorded to all sovereign states). I think the issue is that the two conditions above are simply not being met throughout Europe at the moment: integration seems to be a failing project and entire cities display fracture and division where nothing of the sort existed even a generation ago; moreover the EU denies its member states control over their own borders...in principle this is distasteful, in practice it's worse.

I have a great deal of admiration for immigrants who both contribute and integrate, it's not an easy achievement and I'm sure a lot of forum members know this first-hand. Also there are a lot of success stories of this sort (the Uganda Asians who did so well in the UK after being unceremoniously and foolishly kicked out by Idi Amin, for instance), and we should absolutely learn from them.

Speaking more broadly, immigration is an issue worthy of serious discussion and there are lots of valid answers to these questions...however the troubling thing is that the European intelligentsia's obsession with multiculturalism, and therefore cultural nihilism, has inverted the rightful formula and irrationally posited that Europe is a tabula rusa, and not a home for the cultures and peoples of Europe. It was wrong when Europe attempted to remake the world into its own image during the age of colonialism, and it is wrong now that the left is perniciously and mendaciously trying to remake Europe into an image of the world.

But that last paragraph is rather unrelated to your query.

Quote:

The argument of the low wage that foreigners take may still held for the "poorer" jobs, relatively without a high level of studies/qualifications to exerce them, but when a relatively big company needs to recruit an engineer, I doubt they will take a foreigner just because he might ask for 2000 euros per month less than a native.

I can only go by what I know in the US, but I don't doubt that in the slightest. Why wouldn't a company save 2000 euros each month per employee? It's free money, and companies don't need the faintest encouragement to take the like with vigor.

[Libertas]

^There was a report out of Breitbart that supposedly the EU is going to be adopting Australia's policy, which also includes destroying the boats that these smugglers use.

[Flying Donkey]

I was born in the UK. I have worked and paid my taxes here all my life. Am I wrong to see all these drowning people and think that at least that is 1p off my Income Tax and National Insurance?

[tomtud]

That is the problem with organized religion. It needs to have institutions, buildings etc. However, those people preaching they should sell all their assets to feed the poor will not work. The churches and land belong to the members of the church to use. So, they aren't the owners per se, it's the me,bees who get access to it.
Besides, there are many priests who live modestly.

As for these migrants, it's a bad situation. Duh... Dubai saudi qatar don't accept many refugees or slow them to become start of their society. Maybe the EU should do the same. Refugees don't get a chance at citizenship etc. Since they are worried their cultures will be overrun. Qatar and the UAE can do this,many can't in EU countries.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(04-25-2015 03:13 PM)tomtud Wrote:  

That is the problem with organized religion. It needs to have institutions, buildings etc. However, those people preaching they should sell all their assets to feed the poor will not work. The churches and land belong to the members of the church to use. So, they aren't the owners per se, it's the me,bees who get access to it.
Besides, there are many priests who live modestly.

As for these migrants, it's a bad situation. Duh... Dubai saudi qatar don't accept many refugees or slow them to become start of their society. Maybe the EU should do the same. Refugees don't get a chance at citizenship etc. Since they are worried their cultures will be overrun. Qatar and the UAE can do this,many can't in EU countries.

Quatar & UAE are feudal states who let in slave-workers treating them in atrocious ways and paying them shit. As soon as the oil money is gone, they will be back in the tents with their sky-scrapers crumbling and the Dubai-porta-potties long gone. Copying anything from them is like shooting yourself in the foot and claiming it's better because you think less about other problems you have.

The EU & US could manage the entire economy at similar rates without any immigration at all. The global plans for those Western countries is to be completely overrun and the whites to be a minority in some 50 years. As much as I don't like that they will likely manage to uphold some kind of unified marxist culture, so aside from some exceptions there won't be many problems - certainly not with Indians or most Eastern Europeans.

However putting up any kind of resistance towards any further unification plans will be practically impossible for such a population, since it would be too diverse - easy to divide. Divide and conquer is such an easy Game in such an environment and the plutocracy can sleep in peace guarded by their militarized robo-cops.

[speakeasy]

A few questions if anyone has answers:

How many of these impoverished refugees show up in Europe per year?

Do they permanently remain there or are many returned back at some point?

What do they do once they arrive? Are they strictly working on farms? Sweat shops? I can't imagine they can get normal employment.

Are they entitled to social assistance? Where do they actual live? Do they get apartments? Are they given government housing?

Do they get birthright citizenship for their kids?

[Spike]

I think the OP is utterly misinformed if he thinks that Italia was bankrupting itself by doing the search and rescue missions. Italia has always been one of the biggest economies in Europe. Those missions cost about 9 million a month. I'm pretty sure they spend that on office utilities in Rome alone.

The money for these missions isn't the problem. Its the unwillingness of the European governments to make a decision.

Its allover the Dutch news all day and they talk about refugees from the civil war in Syria. Its always about poor woman and children on the run for safety yet the only people on those boats are young men from Africa looking for fortune in Europe.

Ask yourself this: if you were a young man in a warzone, would you leave your parents and your little brothers and sisters behind to be raped and killed or would you stay and protect them?

There's your answer.

[MidWest]

(04-25-2015 12:39 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

(04-20-2015 03:31 AM)Magnesium Chloride Wrote:  

Labor force participation rate at all time lows, this guy is a hack job. Immigration has lead to permanent unemployment for millions upon millions of Americans.

Are we talking about legal immigration or illegal immigration?

Because if its illegal immigration I find it hard to believe that Americans really compete for toilet cleaning jobs, or strawberry picking jobs, or lawn-mowing jobs. I'll give you roofing but what about dish-washing? I've always said that if people are that worried about an illegal immigrant stealing their job, then I'm sorry to tell them that their job sucks and they should step their job searching game up.

Also do you agree that most of these illegal immigrants are low-skilled and "low value" as is the consensus around here? If so, you are admitting that there are millions upon millions of Americans who are equally as unskilled and have no value to society who desperately compete with the illegals for these jobs. Are Americans really stooping this low nowadays?

Also I don't really buy that because of immigration all of a sudden unemployment rises. The biggest illegal immigration wave to the U.S was in 96 and Bill Clinton had a 4.2 unemployment rate. George Bush in his first term had an even lower rate of 3.3 which was the lowest it has been in decades.

That video is correct. Illegal immigrants are just a scapegoat for the country's problems. They need someone to blame it on so they choose the weakest among the weak to pick on.

As for legal immigration that's a whole other thing altogether.