[Adrenaline]

Are you me in disguise OP? I feel exactly the same way. Outside of being able to afford the basics, I have no motivation to make big money in my life, especially if it comes at the expense of my free time. If making that money was a result of doing something I'm passionate about and would enjoy doing in my free time anyway then that's a different story, but I haven't discovered anything of that nature yet.

[Dalaran1991]

Joking aside, I once thought that I would be pretty earning just enough to go out once in a while and have a decent house, and having plenty of free time to do what I want, I would be happy.

But I was naive and wrong. Since I started working and having more $ than I did back in college already I feel much more liberated.

Quote:

The only thing I really have significant desire for is women. More women, better women.

Like others have said, money gives you freedom. I.e, guys wont be bitching on the newbie forum "Should I buy her a drink?" if you are making 60k+. Thats not to say you buy bitches everything, but its gonna be "Do I feel like buying her a drink?"

Your lifestyle will also be much better with decent $. Travel = better mind, better girl. Better venues = more pleasure, better girl. I frankly enjoy a cocktail lounge rather than cheap beers at student's bar.

So if you need to link it to women, I would certainly say that more money + game > game in terms of quality women.

I dont know how much you make but I guess there's also a certain kind of freedom in being able to just buy something you really like every now and then without having to worry about the price tag and your bank account.

Also liberates you from a lot of shit with stupid people. If you are making fuck you money your abundance mentality goes through the roof, and you walk away from the slightest BS.

[heavy]

(08-06-2015 08:02 AM)Adrenaline Wrote:  

Are you me in disguise OP? I feel exactly the same way. Outside of being able to afford the basics, I have no motivation to make big money in my life, especially if it comes at the expense of my free time.

I think this is simply a product of our society. As soon as men don't have to provide for wives (kid's mothers) and children, many of them drop out as highly productive members of society.

The idea of working your ass off simply for the sake of maintaining and providing for your family...well, that used to be totally acceptable. It still is, but at a declining rate.

Whoever really is running our country is probably realizing the difficulties in running a society without families. Men check out of the workforce, women bang around and wait to have kids until it's too late lowering the birth rate, replacement rate drops, kids who are born are raised in fatherless or broken homes.

And make no mistake, women will never replace men as a sustainable workforce. Why? Sure, women can work hard. They can even work at jobs they hate (single moms do this). But women as a group won't work for their husband with their 3+ children at jobs they hate for the small rewards of relationship stability, two weeks of vacation, bowling once a week with their bffs, and the occasional strip club. Over generations. They simply aren't that utilitarian.

Men have been doing just that for generations.

[rottenapple]

I am almost in the exact same situation and mind state as the OP and I think what would really help is some examples of guys who were doing well before and then became a lot richer. What I mean is the following. At this point in my life, I can go eat where I want (cheap healthy food daily no problem), I travel to exotic locations, have no problem getting very hot girls, buy clothes that I like and so on.

Let's say I'm slightly above average pay and doing ok, especially since I only have to pay for myself. However I don't have a fancy car, I rent a normal apartment, I don't go popping bottles in the clubs and I never flew first class.

What I'm interested in is knowing how much the extra increase of income has meant for someone who was never poor but just doing decent like myself. I'm sure this forum has some guys who are now financially very well off. What difference did it make? Was it worth all the effort? How different do you see girls reacting to you, now that you don't wear the 100$ blazer but the 300$ one, now that you take them to the best restaurant and not a normal one, now that you pick her up in your sports car instead of a regular joe type of car. Did your happiness actually increase and if so how significantly?

[Bad Hussar]

But seriously.

Firstly money is more about (personal) freedom than getting stuff or girls. And if you think money can't buy you freedom, well...

Having said that, the things, experiences and people that money can bring into your life are not in linear proportion to amount spent. i.e. X increase in money does not always result in Y increase in utility. At the very low level each additional $ is of massive value, because otherwise you would...starve. More or less in the middle it is as the OP describes. Each additional $ seems to get you very little. But as you get past the middle, the utility increases again. On a graph it would look like a "U". Additional $'s on X-axis, Increase in utility on the Y-axis. Top right quadrant.

Maybe a bit of a simplification, but it isn't true that the utility simply decreases with each additional $. Most people think this because, almost by definition, most people are in the middle. Another way to think about it is to consider how you cook something tricky, like a soufle. If the recipe calls for it to be cooked at 200 degrees for 30 minutes, cooking it at 25 minutes at 200 degrees will not get you a soufle 83 odd percent as good as one cooked properly. More like 20 percent. Similarly, some things that need money only really "kick-in" when the figures are quite high. If you can only spend 70% of requirements you should rather not be spending at all. You won't get anywhere close to 70% of the value.

[samsamsam]

Bad Hussar +1,000 for dropping the word utility into your post.

[Sigma]

The best quote I've heard in regards to money is; "money is like water, it isn't the reason we live but it is necessary to live". It sums it up perfectly for me because no one should live for money since you just end up a sad lonely person at the end with nothing to show for it but wealth you can't really take with you, unless your Egyptian.

Yet I do believe everyone needs money, how much depends on your needs obviously. Personally I lean towards wanting the nicer things in life. I don't mean asinine hunks of debt like cars or yachts(my opinion) but rather when I travel I'd like to do so in comfort and the same applies for accommodations. Obviously not everyone has the same wants, yet I believe most of the gents on this forum want freedom in regards to location. This is something I believe money can obtain.

As far as not seeing guys pulling girls with money is mainly because it's happening behind closed doors. For example a buddy of mine is quite wealthy and owns an entertainment agency in Tokyo. When I head over there he invites me out for dinner and drinks and he always brings a few "new talent" girls, often times "gravure models" which seem to be his personal preference. We have a quiet dinner at a nice place then we go to a private club or bar where we spend a portion of the night before we head over to our respective hotels. There is no exchanging of money or favors, but the girls know they will have a good time with financially well of guys, in a luxurious environment.

Now before this goes further I want to make clear that I'm not wealthy, I just happen to have a friend who became so. However I envision a lot of the wealthier guys are just not hanging out with their dime pieces where the gen pop goes. I'm thinking high end private clubs, bars, private yachts, planes, etc. So once you're in the "I'm wealthy enough to change your life" category I feel as though there's still a bit of game involved in the sense you can't be one of these beta overnight Facebook guys or you end up with what Zuckerburgs got at home ew. Yet like my friends and such if you're a self made guy I believe you're naturally confident/alpha that girls know not to fuck with you in terms of shit testing and other such nonsense. So it isn't necessarily game but more of a badge where they pretty much bow down to your confidence. These are not facts or laws but mere observations on my part based on what I've seen.

Oh and how I motivate myself is; I'm a naturally competitive person so I think of people more successful than me and that usually lights a fire. Other than that, when I get a bit burnt out I just take a break and start planning out my next vacation (even if it's not for real) and go through finding the hotel I like, plane tickets, budget, etc and then look at some of the local talent that would be waiting for me and it definitely gets me back on track. Remember; CREAM, cash rules everything AROUND me, it don't rule me but definitely can't deny it gets me what I want.

[Peregrine]

(08-06-2015 09:56 AM)Bad Hussar Wrote:  



But seriously.

Firstly money is more about (personal) freedom than getting stuff or girls. And if you think money can't buy you freedom, well...

Having said that, the things, experiences and people that money can bring into your life are not in linear proportion to amount spent. i.e. X increase in money does not always result in Y increase in utility. At the very low level each additional $ is of massive value, because otherwise you would...starve. More or less in the middle it is as the OP describes. Each additional $ seems to get you very little. But as you get past the middle, the utility increases again. On a graph it would look like a "U". Additional $'s on X-axis, Increase in utility on the Y-axis. Top right quadrant.

Maybe a bit of a simplification, but it isn't true that the utility simply decreases with each additional $. Most people think this because, almost by definition, most people are in the middle. Another way to think about it is to consider how you cook something tricky, like a soufle. If the recipe calls for it to be cooked at 200 degrees for 30 minutes, cooking it at 25 minutes at 200 degrees will not get you a soufle 83 odd percent as good as one cooked properly. More like 20 percent. Similarly, some things that need money only really "kick-in" when the figures are quite high. If you can only spend 70% of requirements you should rather not be spending at all. You won't get anywhere close to 70% of the value.

Credit: Jason Cohen, asmartbear.com

[Phoenix]

Since the thread's been bumped, I'll post an update on some of my insights since I started it.

Motivation is multifaceted. There exist a multitude of different ways you can become motivated or demotivated. Hence overall motivation is increased by deliberately curtailing demotivational factors, and deliberately applying and amplifying motivational factors. It all adds up.

Motivation is also a momentum game. The weakest form of motivation is motivation that you continuously apply to yourself. The strongest is motivation from external sources. Because of this, the best motivational tactic is to use self-applied motivation in the direction of triggering externally-applied motivation.

Examples of self-applied motivation:

• Affirmations
• Mentally bringing the future to the present (where you imagine doing the wrong thing 1,2,5,10,20 years into the future, and then feel the negative feelings from what you end up, then 'snap back' to the present, and repeat again with imagining doing the right thing).
• Goals and other forms of self-accountability
• Pump-up music
• Putting dollar values on things and experiences that you do like
• Reading motivational stories such as biographies of winners
  

Examples of externally-applied motivation:

• Poverty
• Offspring
• Bosses (via threats, intimidation, rewards etc)
• Peer pressure & social pressure generally
  

A basic example of this 'motivational bootstrapping' is a business. In the beginning, it's all you, relying on your own self-applied motivation to get it started. However once it's started, the expectations of customers and clients create their own form of motivation: it hurts when people complain about you and you get a bad reputation. So too does the initial money coming in motivate you. It is a form of social encouragement, i.e. "we believe your work is valuable enough to pay for it", and a confirmation of your own self-efficacy. I've seen and heard multiple people say that "when you make your first few dollars, you feel pumped".

Another example is kids. A kid provides a continuous uninterrupted form of externally-applied motivation. It seems to be a universal phenomenon whenever I listen to interviews of businessmen. They all say that the arrival of their first child put a rocket under them.

Another example is general peer pressure. I'm sure any of the guys who've been to a Rooshv meetup will know, if you're with people who expect you to approach, you'll approach much more than if you are merely self-motivating yourself. Your reputation is on the line. This is why I always tell people with approach anxiety: "hang out with people who expect you to approach". Getting laid may be much more important and pleasurable to you than impressing some guys you barely know, but the latter can be used as a lever towards the former.

We're also well aware of the 'you are the 5 people closest to you' rule, and the 'death ground strategy' as a way to deliberately increase externally-applied motivation. It's all about using weak self-applied motivation as a lever to trigger and accumulate strong externally-applied motivation.

So the steps I'd advocate are:
1. Identify externally-applied demotivation. This could include a chick you don't really like but who puts out enough to keep around; loser friends who you hang out with just because you've always known them; naysayer closed-minded loser parents; cushy or dead-end jobs that pay a stable salary; living in a city or community where people have bad attitudes, such as being lazy, blaming others, avoiding responsibility etc; any form of welfare; and signing up for experiences where you are told what to do (school, university etc).
2. Identify self-applied demotivation. This could include playing games, drinking, porn, drugs, negative self-talk etc.
3. Start curtailing self-applied demotivation, and replacing it with motivation. Some self-applied motivational tactics are in the above bullet points. As you start to change from demotivation to motivation, you'll develop net positive self-motivation. You then use this to:
4. Deliberately break the externally-applied demotivation. Start pushing away friends and relatives that sap and burden you. Cast away that mediocre girlfriend. Move to a different city (or country). Drop out of that useless college degree. +
5. Deliberately build externally-applied motivation. Hang out with winners. Start your own business or consulting/contracting service where your reputation is on the line. Make your first independently-earned dollars. Make promises to people - you'll hold them better than promises to yourself. Put money down on things - the pain of losing the money will compel action.

As it stands I'm currently free of externally-applied demotivation, and generally maintaining positive self-applied motivation using most of the above bullet points. I'm currently working on some projects to reach my first independently-earned dollars and to expose my skills & reputation to market criticism/praise.

[Bad Hussar]

^^^Phoenix

Great points. It is almost always as you say, external motivation is the main driver. But the highest level of motivation is probably when you can internally motivate yourself the same way as an external force would. This is quite rare, and I certainly haven't come anywhere close. But if you can do that you have the strong force of external motivation, and the pin point directional ability of internal motivation.

[Orichalcum]

Money won't buy you happiness but you'll definitely have an easier time crying in an Aston-Martin than in a Ford Taurus.

What Phoenix said about external demotivation is critical. You need to identify what internal blocks prevent you from wanting to achieve financial results, for instance:
- I will lose my friends because I'll make more money, have different concerns
- I am scared of being successful and having to make changes in my life
- I am scared of the extra responsibilities that will come with extra money
..

and so on. These are all seemingly-valid reasons, but they won't stand shining a light on them. They won't look so scary then. If your friends won't accept that you make more money, get better friends that pull you upward instead, and so on.

My motivation to make money is internal and also not money-oriented, maybe that is counter-intuitive. I try to identify where I can provide genuine value to other people, and where I can play to my strengths to do it better than others (faster, and/or with higher quality, or serve an unaddressed need; but never competing to do it cheaper). When I do that, money takes care of itself (I clear about mid-6 figures a year, going up or down around that depending on the year, and I don't have a boss nor do I have employees).

Even if you think that you don't have something special to contribute to the world at this point, where you can create real value and monetize it, that's still a great insight; then you know that you need to improve yourself to reach that point. If you do have something special to contribute, a voice, a talent where you are better than others, and if you can truly empathize and find out what other people need and want, then you will have an internal burning fire to serve that need and money will come your way as a result. At least that worked for me.

That's also why I never invested in stock or pump and dump schemes; I would feel like a scam artist and I wouldn't have the motivation to do that. Also, those skills are hardly transferrable when I move on to your next venture. Better invest in yourself, acquire internal insight, and develop your talents for the long haul.

Edit: also, like Phoenix said, I mostly run on momentum. When I have something going, its default state will be success. When it starts waning, I will re-evaluate my goals (I do that about every 3 months) in writing. This is a very simple, steve pavlina-esque technique, but it works. Write down what you want and bullet points on how to achieve it, and go out and do that. If you don't know what you want to achieve, you will achieve other people's financial and life goals.

[jtbabycarrots]

1. Have a purpose larger than yourself for making money.

2. Understand that money is just an exchange of energy. The more energy you contribute the more money you make. So, money is a marker of how much good you are doing in the world. The motivation comes via contribution. Once you start contributing it becomes addictive - in a good way.

3. There is no better game than talking about how much good you are doing in the world. It also puts you in situations where you are meeting incredible women - models, heiresses, etc.

[H1N1]

If you haven't, I'd recommend reading 'Principles' by Ray Dalio (free pdf at first link on Google), who started Bridgewater and has obviously enjoyed huge financial success. He thinks quite deeply about this, and about what our motivations should be. Fundamentally though, his view is that he isn't noticeably happier for having a lot of money, because buying things isn't how he derives joy. Since most of his pleasures are not material, making a lot of money hasn't actually significantly increased his happiness. He says quite openly that if it wasn't for the fact that he really loves what he does, he wouldn't bother, because the money/lifestyle is not a motivating factor. Of course, it's easy to say that when you're in the Forbes 400 or whatever it is, but he seems sincere, and comes from nothing so has the perspective to know what the alternative is, at least.

[Phoenix]

(08-20-2015 12:13 AM)jtbabycarrots Wrote:  

3. There is no better game than talking about how much good you are doing in the world. It also puts you in situations where you are meeting incredible women - models, heiresses, etc.

Yes this is correct. Pro-social behaviour is a known attraction trigger for women. It's in the same lane as conspicuous consumption, but even more powerful. The biological reason is that if a man can effortlessly afford to expend his time and resources on others, for no direct gain of his own, his rank must be very high. I.e. "he's operating miles above his self-sustenance level".

(08-20-2015 05:00 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

If you haven't, I'd recommend reading 'Principles' by Ray Dalio (free pdf at first link on Google), who started Bridgewater and has obviously enjoyed huge financial success.

Yeah Ray Dalio is a big man. I especially enjoyed reading about his companies operational structure. In his company, everyone can and should contribute and rebut ideas, rigorously, without concern for position in the company of them or anyone else (including the CEO). Apparently it's pretty rough, new guys have to adjust to having their ideas mercilessly torn apart by Dalio himself, but I suppose that's the intellectual equivalent of BUD/S for soldiers.

[H1N1]

(08-20-2015 05:14 AM)Phoenix Wrote:  

(08-20-2015 12:13 AM)jtbabycarrots Wrote:  

3. There is no better game than talking about how much good you are doing in the world. It also puts you in situations where you are meeting incredible women - models, heiresses, etc.

Yes this is correct. Pro-social behaviour is a known attraction trigger for women. It's in the same lane as conspicuous consumption, but even more powerful. The biological reason is that if a man can effortlessly afford to expend his time and resources on others, for no direct gain of his own, his rank must be very high. I.e. "he's operating miles above his self-sustenance level".

(08-20-2015 05:00 AM)H1N1 Wrote:  

If you haven't, I'd recommend reading 'Principles' by Ray Dalio (free pdf at first link on Google), who started Bridgewater and has obviously enjoyed huge financial success.

Yeah Ray Dalio is a big man. I especially enjoyed reading about his companies operational structure. In his company, everyone can and should contribute and rebut ideas, rigorously, without concern for position in the company of them or anyone else (including the CEO). Apparently it's pretty rough, new guys have to adjust to having their ideas mercilessly torn apart by Dalio himself, but I suppose that's the intellectual equivalent of BUD/S for soldiers.

Ye absolutely, he actually sounds awesome to work for. If I ever went to work for someone, rather than being self-employed, he's the kind of person I think I could do it for. The opportunity to earn respect and establish yourself out of proportion to your length of employment with the company would probably be unparalleled.

[The Beast1]

Riding public transit is my motivator.

Renting apartments too. I hate landlords.

It's small annoyances where you think, "if I made X more, I wouldn't have to deal with that".

I miss owning a car and having the space to work/mod it. That's one helluva luxury.