[Excelsior]

It does sound like an oxymoron, doesn't it? But hear me out.

I've seen a trend lately as I've browsed this forum and other sites/blogs, and I'm seeing increasingly significant references to what I call "Beta Provider Game". Another user on this forum a couple of weeks ago called it "selling the dream", but its all the same thing.

The premise is actually quite simple: target women whose clocks are ticking(late twenties, early thirties) and whose minds are entering "get a husband mode, and pretend to be a good, beta target.

Before they were looking for "sexy" stereotypically cool men, the guys who had the most status in their teens and early 20's. These were also the men that here friends approved the most of when she was younger(and, of course, we know how important female friend approval is to girls).

Now they are looking for more practical things. A good job, a nice place/car, a decent middle class income and a willingness to start a family. These are the men that their now older friends approve of most(they too are hearing the clock and now are competing to see who can sport the biggest wedding ring).

You can naturally see the huge in a guy has here.

Talk about how much you love kids and your little cousins. Casually mention that you own your own place(or car or whatever). Let it slip that you're a (insert reasonably well paying job title here). Watch her new, more mature attraction triggers light up, and you're in.

Some guys are apparently already leveraging this and using it to play the field. Roissy nails it, of course:

http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/01/28/f...-provider/

Quote:

What I did:

-talked about my nieces and nephews and how much they loved it when I visited
-pared back my cocky funny game
-skipped the negs
-wore a business suit (minus tie)
-discussed future oriented subjects like “goals in life” and “where do you see yourself in five years?”
-remembered a few critical details about her from our first meeting in the bar which I sprinkled into our conversation
-told her I’m “happy with my career“
-slowed down my kino progression
-made sure our seats were in a corner of the bar where people wouldn’t see us kissing

This next blog has a few mentions of this strategy, including one that starts a bit of a moral debate about the idea(most of the men seem to approve of it, though some older female commenters express distaste[shocker]):

http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/07/23/...the-nerds/

Quote:

If I were a bitter beta I might decide I had a different choice other than “Take it or leave it”. He knows women of a certain age and a history of promiscuity are going to be looking for a sucker/nice guy like him to marry and settle down with. What if he decides to con the conwoman? All he has to do is what comes naturally to him. He may want to learn a little game to make him seem more interesting, but he doesn’t have to move to full alpha status.

All he has to do is put himself out there in places where these women are looking for marks, and look like a better mark than the others. Since some of the remaining betas will be manning the picket line and the alphas are busy with the new crop of carousel riders, this probably won’t be too hard. Then he just strings her along for a while, or maybe strings several along all the while talking the provider talk and enjoying the ride. And since she is in full blown (pardon the pun) bag a husband mode, she’s going to be giving him the best sex she can to seal the deal. After a while she’s bound to get wise to the jig, but then another carouseler should be jumping into his bed to fill the void.

This next post is a follow up to the last one:

http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/10/12/...-security/

Quote:

Marcos commented on the thread and said he in fact does exactly what I was pondering:

No matter what lake you find them in, the bait is the same. When they ask you (Trust me – they will! Several times) why you’re 34, 35 whatever years old and never married you just take a moment and say, “Candidly? I haven’t found the right girl. I’m a traditional man and was raised to believe the man takes care of all the bills and financial responsibility. You know, where the woman doesn’t mind taking care of the home. I don’t mind that a woman has a job/career or whatever…In fact that’s great! But I don’t want her to feel that she has to work. That’s my job. Also, I’ve been working all these years to get to a position financially to where I can afford the lifestyle my kids deserve and now I’m ready to focus on the right girl and settle down. You’d be surprised how hard it is to find a woman who wants to have kids and settle down these days.” Say this very relaxed, matter-of-factly tone and it will work. Especially if she’s over 32. Result: deer in headlights. And they buy it. Wanna know why?

Because what I say above taps into the psyche of all carouseler women:
1) These women really don’t want to work for a living – they just want something to occupy their time.
2) These women want a man to take care of all their financial needs/wants without them ever having to care about pricetags.
3) Of course, her biological clock is at the 11th hour and 59th minute.
4) The last reason she’ll buy it: hope.

What do you guys think? Have any of you reliably run this strategy with success? If so, how do you go about it and if not, would you consider trying it sometime?
It has its downsides(you might end up tricking a genuinely good girl) but the potential is there.

[CJ]

This makes sense, although you'd have to know the girl's age range before the approach, which isn't always so obvious.

[Moma]

(05-04-2011 02:22 PM)CJ Wrote:  

This makes sense, although you'd have to know the girl's age range before the approach, which isn't always so obvious.

If you go to a 30's bar, you generally will hit the desired age range

[Jack Frost]

The problem with this is even those girls that think theyre looking for the beta provider or know they should be looking for that they still end up fucking the "bad boy" and then complaining about why they cant find a good guy. Im 31 and cant count how many girls have talked about wanting the "beta provider" knowing Im not that guy then fucking me anyway.

[Giovonny]

This can work, but after you bang her you will have another issue...

She will expect you to be your her boyfriend.

Proceed with caution.

Pretending to be someone that your not is kind of lame. In the short term , you can get a few bangs. But in the long run, being fake doesn't really help your Inner Game.

[oldnemesis]

(05-04-2011 02:20 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

What do you guys think? Have any of you reliably run this strategy with success? If so, how do you go about it and if not, would you consider trying it sometime?

I did it in past, and it worked really well. However there are drawbacks:

- It takes more time to get laid. You still can do it in three dates, but you can forget about ONS, as you'll never have them with this kind of game.
- You'll have to spend extra time to get rid of them afterward, and it can be really annoying. If it was ONS, she'd typically have no expectations, and would probably be happy to never hear from you again. In this case she might actually have some expectations, and may go nuts once she understood she was pumped and dumped.

The benefits, of course, include it being much easier to perform (you will not be dealing with cockblocking, and you won't experience any resistance), and the ability to bang girls who aren't attracted to "bad boy" type.

[UrbanNerd]

This was the approach that I used from when I was age 26/27 and after. With me, I could not pull off the "bad boy" image. It's kind of hard be a "bad boy" when your background is raised in the 'burbs from 2-parent household/straight to college at 18 and out by 22/making very good money at 22 and living right back in the 'burbs or better. Add in not being tattooed-up and never a weed smoker and you HAVE to think of something different than faking a "bad boy". So I relied HEAVILY on the "provider image". Besides, being from a 2-parent household and telling chicks "yeah my parents are still married" really reels in the looking-for-marriage chicks. Again, I can ALWAYS catch amnesia after I bang.

It wasn't that I was against marriage because in due time it would be part of my plan but since I didn't get a lot of chicks from teens to early 20's, I had to make up for lost time...and BOY did I ever. What's weird, as I read these threads, I did MOST of my damage in the DC area. Don't get me wrong, this approach was used along with traveling to Toronto where in Toronto, I was banging just because I was American.

[craigmachine]

is there still an omega level? or is it just alpha or beta?

[Moma]

(05-05-2011 01:28 AM)craigmachine Wrote:  

is there still an omega level? or is it just alpha or beta?

Omega is pimp status where you have women actually launching forums on how to convince you to accepting fellatio from them.

Omega is other worldly where you actually enter the realm of mind control.

[zanetti]

(05-05-2011 09:55 AM)Moma Wrote:  

(05-05-2011 01:28 AM)craigmachine Wrote:  

is there still an omega level? or is it just alpha or beta?

Omega is other worldly where you actually enter the realm of mind control.

yeah, jedi shit - this is what i'm looking to achieve

on a serious note, i think most guys/men want to be with attractive girls, not just for sex, but, subconsciously, also because they think it will make them happier ("you complete me") and they will feel more fully themselves

i think the highest level one can reach, whether in life or game, is to be able to provide this to girls (or people in general). I.e. girls seek you out because they sense that you will "complete" them. And I don't mean through logical arguments (e.g. i'm rich, have a good job, am good in bed etc) but all non-verbally.

i have to say that with all the girls i have been most attracted to in my life it was obviously partly because of how they looked but also something beyond this, call it a vibe, energy, sex appeal, confidence or anything else

[Moma]

(05-05-2011 10:08 AM)zanetti Wrote:  

on a serious note, i think most guys/men want to be with attractive girls, not just for sex, but, subconsciously, also because they think it will make them happier ("you complete me") and they will feel more fully themselves

i think the highest level one can reach, whether in life or game, is to be able to provide this to girls (or people in general). I.e. girls seek you out because they sense that you will "complete" them. And I don't mean through logical arguments (e.g. i'm rich, have a good job, am good in bed etc) but all non-verbally.

i have to say that with all the girls i have been most attracted to in my life it was obviously partly because of how they looked but also something beyond this, call it a vibe, energy, sex appeal, confidence or anything else

Sometimes you meet people that you just click with for some reason that can't be easily put down on paper.

For instance, I used to date a woman that was pretty and had a very good head on her shoulders. She had a similar personality to mine. There was something fake about her deep down and I could sense it earlier on and knew it wouldn't work. Plus the sex was hit and miss.

Now, I met another woman who's personality, I couldn't stand and had a buttaface. However, her body felt amazing sexually and I used to fire off an incredible nutt in her. Even kissing her was da bom.

I've just come to accept that with certain people that there are just somethings at times that makes you click with them.

The key is to meet more honest people who are real with themselves. The law of averages determine that as a regular person you will inevitably meet a score of people that you just click with. Understanding human psychology will determine what level they are because I think we change into different people in our different levels of maturity.
A couple of blood brothers in one stage of maturity will drift apart in another stage as their life goals and motives may change with that state of graduation.
Understanding that will allow you to seek those who may be at a stage that you would like to be but still enjoy the company of those who are at a stage that you are currently at.

[hydrogonian]

I thought that Omega was an asexual type of guy, less than a beta? Not that it matters, but that's what I got from the context of other guys using that term. I could be wrong.

I find that the best and fastest game (if your looking to lay her in 1-3 dates - if sooner, then I recommend just straight alpha super direct) is to maximize your alpha game while just dropping hints of provider potential. Like saying that your "tired of the bullshit", hint at having a good job, etc... An alpha guy with he ability and will to provide is the female dream (at least consciously). So, give her hope that your that guy while turning her on with alpha charm. i find that the more she trusts that you might be able to provide, the larger her tolerance and readiness for extreme caveman or direct type of alpha behavior.

Usually, only emotionally or financially beat down women, or just straight mercenaries, will go for an outright beta. Fortunately, or unfortunately, for betas there are a lot of women who are in those three categories.

I do have a friend from college that is decidedly a beta male to an extreme (looks / personality - everything), and married a smoking hot girl when he had no money. I have no idea how that worked other than she might be a shining example of a down to earth female human. I'm very, very happy for him as he's the type of guy you would assume would have been alone his entire life.

[Samseau]

in what way is beta provider type game any more effective over alpha dominence game?

pros:

easy to pull off? (if you like being a chump?)


cons:

works on less than 5% of women
costs mucho $$
less sex
boring as shit
less hot women
you lie like a politician



I think "provider" game is just a way for betas to feel good about their shitty game when they manage to snag aging party girls by calling it an intentional strategy.

l o l, regular game could have banged them all the same and many others! what's the point of this?

[UrbanNerd]

Is it "beta" because you are lying? If "beta" means lying then just say "provider image". Chicks saw the proof.

- When they pick you up from the airport (I did it on purpose), they know...they see the tickets.
- They saw offer letters from employers...laying around (probably the one I rejected).
- All while standing in townhome that they saw while it was being built.

just subtle hints :-)

[Excelsior]

(05-05-2011 09:55 AM)Moma Wrote:  

(05-05-2011 01:28 AM)craigmachine Wrote:  

is there still an omega level? or is it just alpha or beta?

Omega is pimp status where you have women actually launching forums on how to convince you to accepting fellatio from them.

Omega is other worldly where you actually enter the realm of mind control.

For what it is worth, Roissy defines the Omega as the man on the level below the lowliest beta-essentially hopeless.

Here are a couple of posts that talk about his scale:
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2008/11/25/v...ing-omega/
http://roissy.wordpress.com/2007/09/19/d...lpha-male/

Your description is what he calls a Super alpha. I've never heard Omega used in the way you describe before, but I guess it works. This is all somewhat subjective anyway.

[Excelsior]

(05-05-2011 10:52 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

in what way is beta provider type game any more effective over alpha dominence game?

In the Roissy article I linked to, he gave a list of things he did when running beta provider game. He switched to this form of game because he had seen a pretty hot chick and wanted to get at her, but realized that beta provider game would be the best way to push her buttons given what she's looking for(a provider, obviously).

Forms of "alpha dominance game" don't work on every chick.

Quote:

pros:

easy to pull off? (if you like being a chump?)

It is easy to pull of if you're a natural beta(read: the majority of men) and/or if you're an older guy in the US and can't reliably snag co-eds as simply as you once did. As the posts I listed above state, all you need to have before hand is a good fundamental understanding of game so you don't get suckered into something.

Quote:

cons:

works on less than 5% of women

That's an underestimation. This type of game works pretty well on the average chick who is entering the tail end of her prime(read: ages 27 and up). It works especially well if her biological clock is ticking(ages 27-40).

Quote:

costs mucho $$
less sex
boring as shit
less hot women
you lie like a politician

I agree its more expensive than snagging a one night stand.
Boring depends on who you are and whether or not you prefer higher energy styles of game.
Less attractive women is generally correct-the best targets for this style of game are usually past their prime years, but they can still be very attractive anyway.
Lying: yes and no. a lot of guys can run this style of game by just being themselves and dropping subtle hints like UrbanNerd says.

Quote:

I think "provider" game is just a way for betas to feel good about their shitty game when they manage to snag aging party girls by calling it an intentional strategy.

Roissy, a proponent of this style of game, is not a beta, so I don't understand your point.

[Chaz]

Athlone McGinnis,

All good points, but aren't you a college sophomore? Why the interest in this for such a young guy?
I mean, you're surrounded by young hotties just about every day, right?

[Excelsior]

(05-05-2011 05:48 PM)Chaz Wrote:  

Athlone McGinnis,

All good points, but aren't you a college sophomore? Why the interest in this for such a young guy?

I have always had a tendency to think about things that people within my age group aren't supposed to think about until much later in their lives. I've been that way since I was a toddler. If you knew me in person, you wouldn't be surprised-I'm basically a 40-50 year old man in a teenager's body.

It is also why I am on a forum dedicated to the idea of traveling and meeting women when in actuality I myself won't have the financial means or time(still in college, grad school after) to travel to some of my preferred destinations(particularly Scandinavia, SE Asia) and partake in that lifestyle for at least a few years.

I'm a forward thinker-I can't help it.

Quote:

I mean, you're surrounded by young hotties just about every day, right?

I go to an Ivy League school so...no. Hotties exist here, but they're absurdly difficult to get to and quite rare. You get a very poor return on investment in pursuing them.

To give you an idea of what the environment is like, start with a vision of DC(well described on this forum as a pretty lousy environment).

Now imagine a place that:
-Is more isolated(less to do)
-Has worse weather.

With the girls that are roughly the same as those in DC, save for the fact that they:

-Are less promiscuous(same hypergamy but prefer to tease a lot more than hook up-ONS are very rare here regardless of who you are).
-Are actually pickier(I know millionaire QBs with solid game here who still get strung along by average chicks). Girls here know they have a huge market advantage, and they milk it for all it is worth, even the if they don't have the looks to match.
-Party a lot less than and not nearly as hard as your average American co-ed(its an Ivy)
-Are rather apprehensive when it comes to getting with black guys(a fact confirmed by nearly every other black male I've spoken to on this campus).
-Are fewer in number than guys(bad ratio)
-Are more awkward(they don't flirt well and play a ton of games)
-Are less physically attractive in the aggregate(school is consistently ranked top 10 for ugliest college girls on several websites, and many generally agree that they are uglier than the guys here).

I can go on-if you want a more in depth review(especially of how athletes are treated here), go to this blog and read the last comment.
http://raliv.wordpress.com/2011/03/23/th.../#comments

That's where I'm at. The degree is nice, but it comes at a price.

[Chaz]

Ah, I see, Mr. McG!

You are a very interesting guy! And I'd say you have a very bright future ahead of you, in terms of women and everything else!

I did read your comment that you linked to. That was some good insight into the Ivy League, and being an athlete there. It sounds like a challenging environment. Maybe it's best just to have a girlfriend there, and then you can go for some action if you choose to.

All the best,
C

[gringochileno]

Wow, your school sounds horrible. It might not be a shared problem at all ivy league schools though. I know some guys at Harvard and Cornell who do fine, and I have a female friend at Brown who says the hookup culture there is alive and well. Another friend visited Dartmouth and said it seemed like a fuckfest. I might be wrong but it's possible you just picked the wrong top-tier school.

[hydrogonian]

I'm gonna guess that you're at Cornell. Its either that or maybe Dartmouth, but I think that you alluded to NY in your other post. I dont know if you wanted that outed, but I couldnt resist the guessing game. Especially when it comes to outing the lame femal student body of a famous school. This girls should be ashamed and need their vaginas whipped into shape. "Building comfort"...my word..lol. I feel for you.

[Excelsior]

(05-06-2011 02:56 AM)Chaz Wrote:  

Ah, I see, Mr. McG!

You are a very interesting guy! And I'd say you have a very bright future ahead of you, in terms of women and everything else!

I did read your comment that you linked to. That was some good insight into the Ivy League, and being an athlete there. It sounds like a challenging environment. Maybe it's best just to have a girlfriend there, and then you can go for some action if you choose to.

All the best,
C

Thanks for the kind words.

As for the girlfriend thing, in theory you're correct, but in practice that's difficult here. Getting a girlfriend at my school is not an easy task for a few reasons:

-These girls are entering the prime of their lives, and when they get here they're just realizing it. Keep in mind, a lot of the girls here were the "cute but nerdy" chicks back home. They weren't the party girls who dated the starting QB or anything like that. They spent much of their time studying and taking advantage of every academic opportunity they could.

Suddenly they hit the Ivy League-things change. Whereas back home they were mere 7's and didn't stand out too much, here they become 8's and 9's relative to the female population. The amount of attention they get from guys skyrockets far away from what they are used to. Their major flaws(ex. bad teeth, lack of height, pudgy, etc) which they may have been self conscious about back home are minimized in their heads now thanks to all the attention they get. Its brave new world-suddenly, they have a massively large upperhand in the dating game here.

Take a wild guess at how many of them, once they realize where they are and start to really get used to this power, want to give that up and lock themselves down to a guy. If you guessed "very few", then you are correct. Unless you're at the absolute height of the food chain here, you have very little chance of convincing her to give all of her power up. Only the top 1-2% of guys have that type of pull.

-Ego. This is related to the previous point, but to sum it up all of this new found attention goes to their head. Standards rise, and the girls get pickier and reject more and more guys who, were they back at home or at an average state school, might have had a shot. This is a girl's market, and they know it.

-The girls are busy. Its an Ivy, and these chicks are highly ambitious and driven to make the most of it. That leaves less time for socializing and casual dating than you'd find at most other schools.

Bottomline: The girlfriend strategy works, but not if the girl is from this school. My advice(and I regularly tell this to young guys coming in) is to get a girlfriend from somewhere else and keep her on lockdown for as much of your 4 year sentence here as you can. The guys who are happiest here tend to use this strategy, and it works. They bring their girls up from other schools in the northeast every so often and still have a good time.

[Excelsior]

(05-06-2011 10:16 AM)gringochileno Wrote:  

Wow, your school sounds horrible. It might not be a shared problem at all ivy league schools though. I know some guys at Harvard and Cornell who do fine, and I have a female friend at Brown who says the hookup culture there is alive and well. Another friend visited Dartmouth and said it seemed like a fuckfest. I might be wrong but it's possible you just picked the wrong top-tier school.

Brown is probably the best in the league as far as having a normal, healthy dating scene. They have the best gender ratio(for guys) in the league, something like 53 F-47 M, and the girls are certainly more liberal and DTF.

Yale has surprisingly decent quality-they must be getting a slice of that wealthy, Connecticut elite from super-rich towns in Fairfield County. Princeton's quality is above the bottom tier, but their ratio is among the worst in the league for guys(reverse Brown's ratio). Columbia is tough(also a bad ratio and girl quality is bottom tier in the league) but you have Bard and the rest of NYC to ogle as a guy there to make up for it. Penn has bottom tier girls, but you are in Philly with other options to make up the difference.

Harvard has a horrible scene. The girls are bottom tier and the guys are consistently less satisfied with the quality there than the girls are with the guys.

Dartmouth and Cornell are at the bottom of the league as far as the dating scene (quality of girls, ratio, etc) goes for guys. As far as the quality of these two schools go, they're not exceedingly worse than Harvard. What creates the difference, however, is the isolation. I know guys at all three of these schools and some do ok, but the median results are not good.

The Harvardians are fortunate to live in Boston, and can branch out a bit. BU and BC(to cite just two examples) have plenty of quality on offer and a lot of those girls are very open to dating Harvard guys(especially the athletes). Guys at the other two schools are in a more difficult conundrum, which is why I'd put them at the bottom of the league.

[Excelsior]

My main issue is that I came to the worst place to be a beginner, thinking it wouldn't be so bad.
I look at it all as an investment for the future. Yeah, the social life is miserable but at least the degree will probably pay off.
I'd have never gotten so into game if I hadn't have been in such a tough environment, and I can feel the massive improvements that came from having spent the past 2 years reading sites like these. I'm just not nearly as needy and supplicating as I once was, and the longer I spend here the more self assured, confident and aloof I become.

Its like going through bootcamp or living in a gulag. Sucks to deal with, but I bet it'll make the rest of my life in the real world seem a lot easier.

[gringochileno]

(05-06-2011 12:49 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(05-06-2011 10:16 AM)gringochileno Wrote:  

Wow, your school sounds horrible. It might not be a shared problem at all ivy league schools though. I know some guys at Harvard and Cornell who do fine, and I have a female friend at Brown who says the hookup culture there is alive and well. Another friend visited Dartmouth and said it seemed like a fuckfest. I might be wrong but it's possible you just picked the wrong top-tier school.

Brown is probably the best in the league as far as having a normal, healthy dating scene. They have the best gender ratio(for guys) in the league, something like 53 F-47 M, and the girls are certainly more liberal and DTF.

Yale has surprisingly decent quality-they must be getting a slice of that wealthy, Connecticut elite from super-rich towns in Fairfield County. Princeton's quality is above the bottom tier, but their ratio is among the worst in the league for guys(reverse Brown's ratio). Columbia is tough(also a bad ratio and girl quality is bottom tier in the league) but you have Bard and the rest of NYC to ogle as a guy there to make up for it. Penn has bottom tier girls, but you are in Philly with other options to make up the difference.

Harvard has a horrible scene. The girls are bottom tier and the guys are consistently less satisfied with the quality there than the girls are with the guys.

Dartmouth and Cornell are at the bottom of the league as far as the dating scene (quality of girls, ratio, etc) goes for guys. As far as the quality of these two schools go, they're not exceedingly worse than Harvard. What creates the difference, however, is the isolation. I know guys at all three of these schools and some do ok, but the median results are not good.

The Harvardians are fortunate to live in Boston, and can branch out a bit. BU and BC(to cite just two examples) have plenty of quality on offer and a lot of those girls are very open to dating Harvard guys(especially the athletes). Guys at the other two schools are in a more difficult conundrum, which is why I'd put them at the bottom of the league.

A guy I know who goes to Harvard says it's pretty easy to get laid there but the quality won't blow you away. It may just be him too, I've seen him in action and he has tight game.

Dartmouth is near the bottom? Granted I don't know anyone who actually goes there, but all reports I've heard from people who visited there and went to parties are that people were hooking up left and right.

What's really interesting is that being a football player doesn't give you automatic alpha status where you're at. I went to a non-Ivy but still top-tier school for undergrad and football player was about the highest status you could have, although we are a D1 school in a major conference so maybe that's the difference.