[Excelsior]

(05-06-2011 01:29 PM)gringochileno Wrote:  

A guy I know who goes to Harvard says it's pretty easy to get laid there but the quality won't blow you away. It may just be him too, I've seen him in action and he has tight game.

That's most likely it. I can name 3-4 guys on my campus who do well too, but its their very, VERY tight game(and the fact that they're all-conference football players). Even they have to spend time building "rapport", though.

Quote:

Dartmouth is near the bottom? Granted I don't know anyone who actually goes there, but all reports I've heard from people who visited there and went to parties are that people were hooking up left and right.

This is true of a lot of Ivies-people "hook up" plenty. Girls have no problems handing out some makeouts and booty grinds. Maybe you'll get to take her home and feel a boob.

Its actually getting to intercourse that's the issue. I know a good number of guys throughout the league(Harvard, Cornell, Dartmouth, etc) who get a ton of makeouts, but very rarely ever seal the deal. Girls are tough to get past first base.

Quote:

What's really interesting is that being a football player doesn't give you automatic alpha status where you're at. I went to a non-Ivy but still top-tier school for undergrad and football player was about the highest status you could have, although we are a D1 school in a major conference so maybe that's the difference.

Its true that the Ivy League is not a major D1 conference, and that accounts for much of the difference. That being said, I personally know a bit about the scenes(thanks to HS teammates who are there now) at quite a few other D1 schools that are "1-AA/FCS"(not major conference) including Hofstra, Coastal Carolina, UAlbany, and a few others. Guys on those teams get far more cred for being athletes-they even have groupies.

The thing with the Ivies is the academic environment that reigns in the athletics. Its the reason why there are no athletic scholarships in the Ivies, and why the Ivy Champion can't go to the 1-AA/FCS playoffs. There is a fear of the jock culture, and some disrespect of it. The old guard that runs the league doesn't want it to get bigger than it is.
You can even argue that other students look down on athletes playing the "money sports"(Basketball and Football) in this league. They think we don't belong here, and some of them have even tried to suggest moving to D3 for football and just cutting the budget down.

It can be hostile.

[gringochileno]

(05-06-2011 01:46 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

This is true of a lot of Ivies-people "hook up" plenty. Girls have no problems handing out some makeouts and booty grinds. Maybe you'll get to take her home and feel a boob.

Its actually getting to intercourse that's the issue. I know a good number of guys throughout the league(Harvard, Cornell, Dartmouth, etc) who get a ton of makeouts, but very rarely ever seal the deal. Girls are tough to get past first base.

I wonder if working on getting your seduction game really tight would help here. I bet most of these guys aren't using any really good LMR-busting moves, it could help set you apart.

[Agent_GQ]

(05-06-2011 01:17 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(05-06-2011 10:44 AM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

I'm gonna guess that you're at Cornell. Its either that or maybe Dartmouth, but I think that you alluded to NY in your other post.

I live in NY State.

As for where I go to school, I don't want to out myself too clearly on a public forum. Maybe when I'm comfortable and settled at a good grad school with undergrad way behind me I'll be more open, but not for now. The world is a small place.

For the time being, let's just say you're in the ballpark.

Quote:

This girls should be ashamed and need their vaginas whipped into shape. "Building comfort"...my word..lol. I feel for you.

They feel it later when they graduate and go back to the real world where their value is not overinflated. Nobody misses college more at my school than the female alumni-every time they return, you can just hear the pain in their voices as they walk through the fraternity and get hit on consistently again for the first time since their senior year. I swear they complain about twice as much as the guys I know who come back.

My main issue is that I came to the worst place to be a beginner, thinking it wouldn't be so bad. My goal since childhood has been to play Ivy football, so as a kid I focused completely on it. My life was football, weights and reading. I never went out, rarely talked, and never got a GF. I had offers, but I was far too shy, introverted, inexperienced and just plain anxious about getting here to take advantage of them. I regret this now, because many of the girls who practically threw themselves at me in HS looked better than the chicks here on campus who play way harder to get.

Anyway, because of this I came into college about 3-4 years behind the average guy as far as getting chicks goes(not even a kiss). At [insert random state school here], this might have been less of a problem because the environment would have offered me higher relative advantage in the form of better gender ratios and cuter, more DTF chicks as well as a higher status for athletes (girls on my campus don't care that you play football-some even dislike it). Combine that with the fact that I don't look bad (nerd or not, I got an 8.9 on hotornot, plus I'm still a D1 runningback and look the part) and I'd have probably lucked into quite a few drunken hookups and been way more experienced by now.

Where I am now, however, the environment puts me at a huge disadvantage(blacks guys undesirable, bad ratio, etc). This necessitates far more advanced game-I'd have needed to be 2-3 years AHEAD(read: more experienced and/or alpha) of the average guy my age to compensate. Instead, I'm a few years behind. Its a shit show.

I look at it all as an investment for the future. Yeah, the social life is miserable but at least the degree will probably pay off. The whole thing also forced me to become less needy and dependent on girls while also focusing more on self improvement, something I probably needed. It also forced me to redouble my efforts in school. During the fall and winter of Freshman year, I carried a 3.1-I was too focused on trying to get girls here, and hadn't realized how futile it was. Since then, I've carried a 3.7 and will probably graduate with a low 3.5, good enough for most top grad schools.

I'd have never gotten so into game if I hadn't have been in such a tough environment, and I can feel the massive improvements that came from having spent the past 2 years reading sites like these every time I go home on break and deal with normal chicks. I'm just not nearly as needy and supplicating as I once was, and the longer I spend here the more self assured, confident and aloof I become.

Its like going through bootcamp or living in a gulag. Sucks to deal with, but I bet it'll make the rest of my life in the real world seem a lot easier.

Damn Athlone. First of all, I'm gonna say props to you for reaching your goals. That's definitely something to be proud of. Now what I am going to offer is advice, so don't take this the wrong way. I believe the 20's are the best years of your life so I don't believe you should be spending them in a prison, even at the expense of the school and degree prestige.

You could get the academic/degree prestige at a few D1 schools that have better gender ratios, more quality tail than Ivies, near more colleges, large metro areas, etc. Some schools that come to mind are Stanford, Duke, Rice, Cal, Vanderbilt, etc. Even if you couldn't get an athletic scholarship to one of those schools, you could have walked on. Hell, RB is a position that most schools go 6-8 deep on their 80+ man roster.

Seeing as you are a very intelligent person, I'm guessing you already thought about this and ran through all these scenarios. So I'm just throwing it out there. If you find yourself quite unhappy into sophomore year, I'd say consider transferring to another school that will give you the best of both worlds (academics/prestige and ass). Just my two cents.

[Giovonny]

Am I reading this right? Its hard to meet girls in college???

This must be some kind of mistake!!! College might be the best place in the world to meet girls. Where else are you gonna be surrounded by young girls all day, everyday? Literally living in a "village" with thousands of girls, all the classes, events, clubs, groups, parties, social circles. Its like having built in logistics. If you think college is tough, wait until you hit the real world.


Athlone McGinnis,

Don't fall into this excuse making mindset. Its not hard to meet girls in college. Its easy. Take responsibility for your sex life and work hard on your Game. The real issue might not be the girls, the real issue might be your Game.

If you fall into this excuse making, cynical mindset (not saying that you have, yet) it can stay with you in your adult life. Often times, it can get worse. You aren't getting girls, you blame the circumstances, you don't take responsibility, you don't work on your Game, you don't get girls, you blame the girls, the cycle continues...

Don't allow that cycle to begin.

(05-06-2011 12:30 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

Getting a girlfriend at my school is not an easy task for a few reasons:

-These girls are entering the prime of their lives

-Ego.

-The girls are busy.

I see these as excuses. Your blaming the circumstances and the girls.

"they are entering the prime of their lives"... this is a good thing. They are open to exploring and experimenting with the sexuality.

"they have an ego"... so learn to diffuse this with some light teasing and "negging".

"They are busy"... so don't date them, just bang them. They all have sexual needs and desires.

(05-06-2011 12:30 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

My advice is to get a girlfriend from somewhere else and keep her on lockdown for as much of your 4 year sentence here as you can.

Keeping one girlfriend for all 4 years of college. Nooo!!!! Don't do it. (unless you meet your soulmate) Experiment with your Game and try to date/bang many different women. Why get married in college?

Maybe this post is all wrong. Maybe you are a charismatic guy with strong Game. Maybe you would be getting tons of ass if you transferred to Penn St. or University of Georgia. But, it doesn't seem that way to me. I think you just need to continue working hard on your Game.

I know you love beautiful women because you are always posting their pictures in the "What do you consider a 10" thread. Don't just admire and talk about beautiful women. Try to bang them. Get comfortable talking to them. Its a skill so valuable that they can't even teach it to you in the Ivy League. You gotta teach yourself. And if you do it, it will be better then getting a PHD. Most PHD's don't get any ass anyways.

Don't take this to personal and get offended. I hope this will be constructive and helpful for your Inner Game.

[Excelsior]

(05-06-2011 02:00 PM)Agent_GQ Wrote:  

Damn Athlone. First of all, I'm gonna say props to you for reaching your goals. That's definitely something to be proud of. Now what I am going to offer is advice, so don't take this the wrong way. I believe the 20's are the best years of your life so I don't believe you should be spending them in a prison, even at the expense of the school and degree prestige.

You could get the academic/degree prestige at a few D1 schools that have better gender ratios, more quality tail than Ivies, near more colleges, large metro areas, etc.

I've seriously thought about heading out of here to a better environment. I even considered a few selective D3s in the Northeast with better gender ratios where I'd probably play more.

At the end of the day, I've decided to stick it out here. I've worked for the entirety of my life to get here and I'm gonna just tough out the last two years.

Quote:

Even if you couldn't get an athletic scholarship to one of those schools, you could have walked on. Hell, RB is a position that most schools go 6-8 deep on their 80+ man roster.

Nah bro, I just gotta be real with you guys: I'm not that good.

[hydrogonian]

Don't be so hard on Athlone. I knew some women who went to Ivies in high school, and what he's saying is just about right. Of course they are almost all DTF given the right conditions, but there is a lot of posturing that goes along w getting in their pants (at this age, just wait until the school reunion). Daddy is rich, all their friends and families are generally rich, they went to prep schools, and generally think that their shit doesnt stink. Whereas if Daddies lower middle class white girl wants to partake in her dark fantasies at a state university, she will, whereas Ivy bitches are much more disciplined at suppressing such desires. Thats because their reputation means everything to them and will guard that above all else. Thats not an intended slight on black guys - as it applies to whoever they date (including me, a lower middle class guy) - but if dating black is a large faux pas in their family, which it usually is, then the reality is guys like Athlone are at a larger disadvantage trying to date upper class girls in the Ivies.

Athlone, going by what you said Im going to assume that you dont go to Penn or Harvard. Why not transfer to one of those schools? They are both in major metros and therefore your dating pool extends to every girl in the city. I know that there are a hell of a lot of women who would love to get with an Ivy league black athlete. Philly has Drexel U directly next to Penn, and Boston is full of other universities. Lots of hotties to be had, and you can still get your Ivy education. Ivy women arent worth it anyway, on the whole. Same issues as every other woman, but an added double dose of ego and feminism (generally). Plus all that smart frequently adds up to more crazy. Add in the money and you have an entitled crazy feminist who can actually out-argue you. Not my idea of attractive. The only plus is the potential to marry into money and a cushy job.

[Excelsior]

(05-06-2011 02:42 PM)Giovonny Wrote:  

Maybe this post is all wrong. Maybe you are a charismatic guy with strong Game. Maybe you would be getting tons of ass if you transferred to Penn St. or University of Georgia. But, it doesn't seem that way to me. I think you just need to continue working hard on your Game.

I know you love beautiful women because you are always posting their pictures in the "What do you consider a 10" thread. Don't just admire and talk about beautiful women. Try to bang them. Get comfortable talking to them. Its a skill so valuable that they can't even teach it to you in the Ivy League. You gotta teach yourself. And if you do it, it will be better then getting a PHD. Most PHD's don't get any ass anyways.

Don't take this to personal and get offended. I hope this will be constructive and helpful for your Inner Game.

Don't worry, I'm not taking any of this personally. I understand that you're just trying to help, and I appreciate you taking the time to write all of that.

That being said, while your suggestions regarding the environment here make sense for 99% of college kids, I'm going to tell you in complete honesty: normal rules when it comes to game do not apply at this school. Ivy League schools are not like normal schools. The people are not normal, the athletics is not normal(neither is the recruiting), the workload is not normal, the parties/events are not normal, the drinking/dating scene is not normal and the girls are NOT normal.

What you've given me is good advice and, for most people, would probably work. But you have to trust me when I say it does not work here, at least not to the same extent. Trust me because I've been here, I know the environment very well, and because for all my faults, I do have a decent understanding of game principles and have experimented extensively with them here. I'm also on a football team and I hear just about everything.

It is difficult for most pragmatic guys in the manosphere/PUA realm to believe, but things here really are THAT bad. If you came and stuck around for a while as a student, you'd become a believer very quickly, I guarantee it.

Even the guys here with game, gridiron stardom, modeling careers and trust funds have to work at it. I'm in a frat with them-I see and hear this first hand. When your tall, blonde, affluent, starting all-Ivy caliber QB(who was not as shy or reserved as you were in HS) complains about how much more game he has to run here compared to his hometown, you KNOW that you(walk-on, black, short, broke, relatively inexperienced) are screwed. Maybe not in other places, but definitely screwed here. Your return on investment will be well into the negatives-even he's struggling to stay in the black, and he's get way more to fire in his arsenal than you.

I'll just give a few quick examples based on your suggestions:

Quote:

"They are busy"... so don't date them, just bang them. They all have sexual needs and desires.

ONS are very rare here in comparison to other college environments. I've seen them happen and I've even been a part of one or two, but they are exceedingly rare. Girls here are not as willing to throw them out as those in most other places.

Quote:

"they are entering the prime of their lives"... this is a good thing. They are open to exploring and experimenting with the sexuality.

Girls here are not into experimenting. They are much more reserved and closed off relative to the average co-ed. They're not as wild, not nearly as impulsive, not as drunk, not as adventurous and far more analytical and cautious.

Quote:

If you think college is tough, wait until you hit the real world.

I can't wait for the real world. I relish the opportunity.

Here's my average day: It lasts 12-13 hours(6:50am-9pm on average), most of which are spent studying my butt off or getting shouted at by a bunch of hard-headed coaches who love to get up early and love to watch players run(and re-run...and re-run) 300s and lift until their arms don't work anymore.

As if that wasn't bad enough, I have to deal with very difficult work(try writing 20 full essays, long of 15 pages and the shortest at 5, in a nine week period), difficult girls who seem duty bound to fear me and those who look like me, and bros who, aware of the fact that I'm not nearly as wealthy as they are, look down on me consistently.

I don't have a car. I have no money. I have no social circle here(can't seem to make friends if I tried), no status and it is freezing 7-8 months out of the year-I thought spring would never come. I don't even have enough in the way of connections to benefit from the nepotism that is rife here-instead, I just get stepped on while "the bros" party on and spend their parents money jovially.

A lot of people wonder what it is about these "elite" Ivy League schools that allows them to produce so many kids who go on to do well in life. How do they do it?
I'll tell you why it happens, at least for my school's grads: the school environment sucks. You sacrifice all of the stereotypical "college experience"(drinking 4 nights a week, wild promiscuous coeds, easy classes and drugs galore) for the degree. You're competing in an academic environment where damn near everyone was a valedictorian and geniuses abound, and if you're a guy you'll likely endure more dry spells here than you will before or after your arrival while watching merely cute girls who may have approached you back home blow you off like they just got an offer to appear in the SI swimsuit edition. This is not your normal college where its just a huge party and thus a major adjustment come graduation time. This place is a grind. Most normal kids would go nuts here-I almost did.

Live in a gulag for 4 years and the real world will be cake to you. I relish the little tastes I get every time I leave this little bubble and work a job or hang out at home. It lets me know that life isn't so hopeless after all, and I do have plenty to look forward to.

[Excelsior]

(05-06-2011 03:46 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

Don't be so hard on Athlone. I knew some women who went to Ivies in high school, and what he's saying is just about right. Of course they are almost all DTF given the right conditions, but there is a lot of posturing that goes along w getting in their pants (at this age, just wait until the school reunion). Daddy is rich, all their friends and families are generally rich, they went to prep schools, and generally think that their shit doesnt stink. Whereas if Daddies lower middle class white girl wants to partake in her dark fantasies at a state university, she will, whereas Ivy bitches are much more disciplined at suppressing such desires. Thats because their reputation means everything to them and will guard that above all else. Thats not an intended slight on black guys - as it applies to whoever they date (including me, a lower middle class guy) - but if dating black is a large faux pas in their family, which it usually is, then the reality is guys like Athlone are at a larger disadvantage trying to date upper class girls in the Ivies.

Perfectly described, nothing to add except this: these girls do guard their rep jealously, but they occasionally can slip if, on a rare occasion, they drink just a little too much. That happened with a girl I was with once early freshman year(when I extensively ran routines and game), and it got me a hook up. We were both drunk, and went about it willingly-in fact, she initiated, bringing me to the location herself.

I tried to follow up and be a gentleman, but she wouldn't have it, flaking every time and behaving in a very distant, guarded manner. A week later I find out that she is telling her friends I attempted to rape her.

I lucked out and she didn't pursue it, but I was not the only black dude on campus to run into this type of thing. Girls here will go that far to protect their reps after a drunken night, and its your future on the line.
This is why I rarely drink when I do go out here(which in itself is a rare occasion), and I stay away from drunk chicks.

Quote:

Athlone, going by what you said Im going to assume that you dont go to Penn or Harvard. Why not transfer to one of those schools? They are both in major metros and therefore your dating pool extends to every girl in the city. I know that there are a hell of a lot of women who would love to get with an Ivy league black athlete. Philly has Drexel U directly next to Penn, and Boston is full of other universities. Lots of hotties to be had, and you can still get your Ivy education. Ivy women arent worth it anyway, on the whole. Same issues as every other woman, but an added double dose of ego and feminism (generally). Plus all that smart frequently adds up to more crazy. Add in the money and you have an entitled crazy feminist who can actually out-argue you. Not my idea of attractive. The only plus is the potential to marry into money and a cushy job.

You're dead on with most of this, and I strongly considered transferring out, but I decided on just sticking it out for a couple more years. While I hate it here, my grades have been very good and the financial aid office has been ridiculously helpful. The school is an amazing institution of learning and its rankings are completely deserved. It just does everything a school, by definition, should do and does it insanely well. There's a reason why I'm so confident in facing the real world(as I said to Giovonny above): this place has prepared me very well academically, and I do appreciate that.

I pay a horrible price socially for the privilege, but the investment is something I think may pay off quite handsomely. I won't interrupt it now.

Grad school is a different story. Both Penn and Harvard are very high on that list, as are a few southern schools(Vandy, Duke) and Stanford.

[hydrogonian]

Nice. Now we just have to convince you not to go to law school

[Tim9000]

[Deleted]

[hydrogonian]

(05-06-2011 08:34 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

You're dead on with most of this, and I strongly considered transferring out, but I decided on just sticking it out for a couple more years. While I hate it here, my grades have been very good and the financial aid office has been ridiculously helpful. The school is an amazing institution of learning and its rankings are completely deserved. It just does everything a school, by definition, should do and does it insanely well. There's a reason why I'm so confident in facing the real world(as I said to Giovonny above): this place has prepared me very well academically, and I do appreciate that.

I get that. But if you really have a 3.7, then you could transfer to another Ivy easily. They would probably even match your financial aid. Thats because your a known quntity at this point, and have proven that you can succeed academically at an Ivy. Thats much more attractive than any high school applicant, even a wealthy one form a prep school and one who has perfect grades. Additionally, your a minority. The majority white, highly self conscious, and highly visible Ivies love diversity for their demographics. The fact that your an academically proven minority athlete makes you a no-brainer for any Ivy as a transfer candidate.

Any Ivy is going to have stellar administrative departments. You dont have to worry about that. Get out of there and get your swagger on! There is no harm in applying, anywyay.

[Excelsior]

(05-07-2011 04:52 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

I get that. But if you really have a 3.7, then you could transfer to another Ivy easily. They would probably even match your financial aid. Thats because your a known quntity at this point, and have proven that you can succeed academically at an Ivy. Thats much more attractive than any high school applicant, even a wealthy one form a prep school and one who has perfect grades. Additionally, your a minority. The majority white, highly self conscious, and highly visible Ivies love diversity for their demographics. The fact that your an academically proven minority athlete makes you a no-brainer for any Ivy as a transfer candidate.

Any Ivy is going to have stellar administrative departments. You dont have to worry about that. Get out of there and get your swagger on! There is no harm in applying, anywyay.

Well, you've certainly made a compelling argument and put forward a few points I'd not considered before.
Perhaps I'll need to look into this a bit more and give the idea a bit more consideration.

[Excelsior]

(05-07-2011 02:33 PM)Tim9000 Wrote:  

Be careful about what you think of "normal college". It's not just your school that lacks the "college is a big party" experience, and these days I suspect that more students than ever aren't getting that kind experience out of college. Financial pressures have a lot to do with it: people are working a lot more to pay for college and that cuts down on the hanging out. But also, I strongly suspect that only a small fraction of schools ever had good party scenes to begin with. There are *huge* numbers of students going to second-tier state schools with lots of commuters and people leaving on the weekend even if they live on campus (but have parents nearby). I went to one such university which had about 4,000 traditional full-time undergraduates (and thousands more part-time) but was a ghost town on weekends. Needless to say not much hooking up was happening there. Not saying you don't have a right to be frustrated with your situation, just that the experience you want may be the exception rather than the rule.

While I agree that relatively few colleges truly meet the "girls gone wild" ideal that many have in their heads, my contention is still that most of these schools(including second-tier ones like Portland State, Missouri State, etc, etc) come A LOT closer to this than schools like MIT, Harvard, and other ivies. The parties are still far crazier, still larger and more frequent, the girls much prettier and less reserved/difficult to talk to.

I'm from New York, and our state school(SUNY) system is filled with these types of second tier schools. While they're certainly not at an LSU/Georgia/ASU level, schools like Cortland, Brockport, Albany and the even lesser known Binghampton and Fredonia do quite well. Hofstra, another big commuter school, also is an order of magnitude wilder than my campus. I know enough people at these places to get the idea that they're a whole lot closer to that ideal than any of the Ivies/MIT, and I'd venture to say that the majority of second tier state/less selective private schools are at or around this level.

In that sense, I don't think a more vibrant experience than what I'm used to here is exceptional. Ivies like mine are simply on the tamer extreme of the spectrum, while I'd venture that most schools move a lot closer to the other extreme, even if they don't all quite get there.

[hydrogonian]

This probably won't dissuade you from your law school plans, but its funny:

[manilaguy]

Plus, Cambridge is a good for interracial dating. Walk down mass ave and you'll be desensitized to white girls with asian guys or black guys.

[manilaguy]

I think in this guys' situation, given that he is Ivy bound and determined, I would encourage him to go to law school. It's those douche bags with rich parents who hang around in law schools to escape real life who should be dissuaded.

[hydrogonian]

(05-07-2011 09:06 PM)manilaguy Wrote:  

I think in this guys' situation, given that he is Ivy bound and determined, I would encourage him to go to law school. It's those douche bags with rich parents who hang around in law schools to escape real life who should be dissuaded.

Well, almost every Ivy bound (or other private T14 school) law student is going to be rich, just because the schools are so expensive to attend. The students have the scores and the money to go to those schools. They have other options, and arent in school to slack off. Its unlikely that Athlone wil get a full ride to go to law school, just because most people don't. Unless he's a legal / logical wunderkind and scores in the 175 range on the LSATS, and even then its iffy as 175 LSAT scores are common at these schools. The graduate pool of students is differnet than the undergraduate pool. The pool has been further filtered for talent. Its different criteria to get scholarships and, for the most part, law schools largely exist as huge monymakers for the schools - therefore, full rides are more rare. Its likely that he's going to go into heavy debt to attend law school at an Ivy (probably 50K per year for three years minmum - maybe not even including living expenses). So, thats $150k++ debt that you might be encouraging him to undertake.

If he thinks that a job at a Big Law firm is guaranteed, the thats something else. But from what I heard, Ivy law education doesnt gurantee that anymore. And then theres the consideration of he wants to work 80-90 hours per week for ten years, and 130k - 150k per year, for an outside chance of making partner. If he doesnt make partner, then he's fucked as he will have to leave big law. Also, with an Ivy tuition bill, and no big law salary, he's fucked. So, big law is really his only option of he goes to an Ivy Law school and needs to pay tuition. He should be really sure that that is what he's after. Also, he needs not to underestimate the old boys club / family pedigree focus that is rampant at big law firms. That can frequently be overcome with raw talent (I know of at least one example in my uncle), but the classism is something one may have to deal with regardless.

[Excelsior]

(05-07-2011 10:27 PM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

Also, he needs not to underestimate the old boys club / family pedigree focus that is rampant at big law firms. That can frequently be overcome with raw talent (I know of at least one example in my uncle), but the classism is something one may have to deal with regardless.

I've talked a lot about the situation on my campus and how I don't like the social environment at the school, but if one thing is certain it is this: I've had a crash course education in the workings of the "old boys club". I have no money so I'm usually on the wrong end of their dealings, but I know intimately how it operates.

As depressing as the experience is, its prepared me pretty well. It taught me the importance of cultivating raw talent in the absence of money and connections.

Should I run into it again at a firm or in any other environment, I'll be ready.

[manilaguy]

Look kid, you may be lower end of the 10% income level, but reading your rationalizations, you are definitely at the top 10% on the intelligence block.

A sibling of mine went to Harvard, we paid zilch in tuition. I was also a scholar in Univ of California, and I paid no tuition. Our parent's combined income (at the time) is that of a first generation immigrant -- they simply could not pay tuition for any of us. I was not even supposed to go to university, and there were talks if I should enter be an auto mechanic or a dental assistant. I now work for a multi-national company (banking).

As cliche as it sounds, you have to "game" the system and not use socio-economic background as a definite hindrance to realize what you want to be.

All the best.

[manilaguy]

ps.

my girlfriend in college drove a late model white Mercedes SLK coup with gold rims, while I drove a POS '92 Saturn whose engine required my friends to get off the car so it could climb San Francisco's hills (the car died on graduation day, RIP my humble steed). Money isn't the end all.

[hydrogonian]

@ Athlone

It sounds like a lot of those plans depend on your ability to get scholarships for law school. If you don't, then my estimation of your debt was on target or low.

If you wind up footing the bill, then I recommend that you be sure of your ability to not be forced into an 80k mid-law job. Paying off that loan with an 80k salary will be decidedly considered losing the bet that you will have taken. The ONLY other option would probably be debt forgiveness if you were to get a government position.

Also, remember, its not the fact that you will be hired into the Old Boys Network. Its your ability to advance and make partner within that network. Those are two entirely different things. Not making partner would be catastrophic. I also have to say that it confuses me as to why private firms, which are private businesses, feel pressured to diversify their workforce. I can't imagine where legitimate pressure would be coming from. But I believe you.

Other than that, bravo on the research. You seem to be going into this with both eyes open. That's all anyone can do. But definitely talk to as many working attorneys as possible between now and law school. I'm sure you know that, though.

Good luck to you sir!

[Excelsior]

(05-08-2011 10:56 AM)manilaguy Wrote:  

Look kid, you may be lower end of the 10% income level, but reading your rationalizations, you are definitely at the top 10% on the intelligence block.

A sibling of mine went to Harvard, we paid zilch in tuition. I was also a scholar in Univ of California, and I paid no tuition. Our parent's combined income (at the time) is that of a first generation immigrant -- they simply could not pay tuition for any of us. I was not even supposed to go to university, and there were talks if I should enter be an auto mechanic or a dental assistant. I now work for a multi-national company (banking).

As cliche as it sounds, you have to "game" the system and not use socio-economic background as a definite hindrance to realize what you want to be.

All the best.

Thanks dude, I appreciate it.

[Excelsior]

(05-08-2011 11:21 AM)hydrogonian Wrote:  

If you wind up footing the bill, then I recommend that you be sure of your ability to not be forced into an 80k mid-law job. Paying off that loan with an 80k salary will be decidedly considered losing the bet that you will have taken. The ONLY other option would probably be debt forgiveness if you were to get a government position.

This is a legitimate concern for a lot of law school grads. We'll see about my ability to avoid it-I have some confidence.

Quote:

I also have to say that it confuses me as to why private firms, which are private businesses, feel pressured to diversify their workforce. I can't imagine where legitimate pressure would be coming from. But I believe you.

For firms, the pressure comes from their clients. The Fortune 500 companies they work with all want to see diversity, and in fact many of the in-house corporate counsel at these firms are minorities. They don't want to do business with a firm that isn't diverse or at least pretending to be. It is the same deal if the firm is working with government entities-the administrations want to see diversity as well.
A firm that can show itself to be diverse gets a better rep and better business, so its in their interest to try and diversify their hiring practices a bit.

As for why the private Fortune 500 businesses themselves feel the need to diversify(and to call on their legal partners to diversify) in the first place? That goes down to public perception. Minorities have votes and they buy a lot of stuff. Show you're diverse, and you get better business and perception on the market. Show that you only do business with partners(ex. Law firms) that are also working to be more diverse, and your rep gets even better in the eyes of minorities who, seeing how favorable and non-racist you are, might be inclined to buy more of your stuff. The government, with its goal of equality, might even look upon you a bit more favorably when it comes to legislation and regulation, and your lobbyists might have a bit more pull on the hill as a result.

To keep it simple: Diversify(or at least look like you're trying) and you'll earn more money.

The government's interest in fostering diversity and pressuring everyone else to do the same thing is simple: votes.

Quote:

Good luck to you sir!

I definitely appreciate it bro.

[Samseau]

(05-05-2011 05:33 PM)Athlone McGinnis Wrote:  

(05-05-2011 10:52 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

in what way is beta provider type game any more effective over alpha dominence game?

In the Roissy article I linked to, he gave a list of things he did when running beta provider game. He switched to this form of game because he had seen a pretty hot chick and wanted to get at her, but realized that beta provider game would be the best way to push her buttons given what she's looking for(a provider, obviously).

Forms of "alpha dominance game" don't work on every chick.

Quote:

pros:

easy to pull off? (if you like being a chump?)

It is easy to pull of if you're a natural beta(read: the majority of men) and/or if you're an older guy in the US and can't reliably snag co-eds as simply as you once did. As the posts I listed above state, all you need to have before hand is a good fundamental understanding of game so you don't get suckered into something.

Quote:

cons:

works on less than 5% of women

That's an underestimation. This type of game works pretty well on the average chick who is entering the tail end of her prime(read: ages 27 and up). It works especially well if her biological clock is ticking(ages 27-40).

Quote:

costs mucho $$
less sex
boring as shit
less hot women
you lie like a politician

I agree its more expensive than snagging a one night stand.
Boring depends on who you are and whether or not you prefer higher energy styles of game.
Less attractive women is generally correct-the best targets for this style of game are usually past their prime years, but they can still be very attractive anyway.
Lying: yes and no. a lot of guys can run this style of game by just being themselves and dropping subtle hints like UrbanNerd says.

Quote:

I think "provider" game is just a way for betas to feel good about their shitty game when they manage to snag aging party girls by calling it an intentional strategy.

Roissy, a proponent of this style of game, is not a beta, so I don't understand your point.

From the Roissy article:

Roissy Wrote:

One more thing. The snare of beta provider game only works after your alpha cred has been firmly cemented in her mind. So don’t go thinking you can put on the halo before the horns have lured her in.

Roissy isn't advocating being a beta in order to get laid, he's just advocating toning done your alpha acumen with aging broads.

This matches his advice here:

http://roissy.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/t...e-bracket/

Therefore me and Roissy are in complete agreement.

But I think you miss another point: the beta provider game of Roissy and the beta provider game mentioned by the dudes at Dalrock aren't the same thing. One is deliberately acting like a beta till she sleeps with you (the commenter at Dalrock's uses this game) and the other is behaving more beta once you've sufficiently impressed her with some alpha moves (roissy's uses this game). So let's not the confuse the two.

[ElBorrachoInfamoso]

@Athlone

You may already have contacts at the top schools, but I know a law student at one of those top schools you listed. He's a black dude and he's active in diversity initiatives at the school. Send me a PM if you want to be put in contact with him.