[TheWastelander]

Don't wanna derail, but now that I think about it I find it humorous how the left in general is for open borders and deride people who call the mass of people coming across our southern border an invasion, but on Columbus Day and Thanksgiving they get mad about Europeans who came to an uncivilized continent that did have open borders and condemn that as an invasion.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.

[Dusty]

For those of you who are untroubled by the executive over reach on immigration here, imagine a President Hillary signing feminist edicts. Affirmative consent, "hate speech", etc.

[ElBorrachoInfamoso]

^
I don't like little kids getting shot either, but I'm not ready to repeal the 2nd amendment. I'm not even ready to seize the weapons of people who own firearms that are banned in their particular jurisdictions.

Presidents can and do use executive orders for things I disagree with. In this case, Obama is using an executive order for something I do agree with. It's not clear to me that we are worse off because presidents have (or have seized) this power. It might be unconstitutional, but that doesn't bother me at all. We can point to a lot of shit that was constitutional at one point or another that most people now accept was wrong, e.g. 3/5 compromise, prohibition, yada yada yada.

(11-26-2014 09:31 AM)Native Baltimoron Wrote:  

Elections weren't unheard of; there were republics ruled by legislative assemblies...

Attempting to reason your way to a system of government is exactly the sort of intellectual masturbation...

Lastly, if a private citizen has a right to tell you to get off his land, and a group of private citizens can also stop your trespass, then the duly-constituted government comprising the political will of those same citizens can erect and defend a border.

Did you even read what I wrote? If you did then you clearly didn't understand it. Go back, read it again. Pay close attention to "almost inconceivable" and "most parts of the world".

Do you see where I transitioned from the ideal libertarian system to the practical liberal democratic system we do have? Did you notice where I said I was ok with this system, but thought it could be improved?

You want to talk about mental masturbation? You have a dozen guys on here with sand all up their vaginas about Obama's executive order on immigration. You're all just having a little circle jerk crying about something that you realistically have no power to influence. Something you will take no action on. That's pretty much the definition of mental masturbation. We're both arguing with strangers on the internet. Look in the mirror dude.

Closed borders are part of the current system that I think needs to change. I do not believe there is a natural right to closed or open borders. Borders are inherently communal property and communities decided what laws govern communal property. I think borders should be more open and that we should rewrite the laws to make that so. We had open borders before the early 20th century so this is more than just a mental exercise.

[Snowplow]

(11-27-2014 04:16 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

You want to talk about mental masturbation? You have a dozen guys on here with sand all up their vaginas about Obama's executive order on immigration. You're all just having a little circle jerk crying about something that you realistically have no power to influence. Something you will take no action on. That's pretty much the definition of mental masturbation. We're both arguing with strangers on the internet. Look in the mirror dude.

Closed borders are part of the current system that I think needs to change. I do not believe there is a natural right to closed or open borders. Borders are inherently communal property and communities decided what laws govern communal property. I think borders should be more open and that we should rewrite the laws to make that so. We had open borders before the early 20th century so this is more than just a mental exercise.

[Samseau]

(11-27-2014 04:16 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

Closed borders are part of the current system that I think needs to change. I do not believe there is a natural right to closed or open borders. Borders are inherently communal property and communities decided what laws govern communal property. I think borders should be more open and that we should rewrite the laws to make that so. We had open borders before the early 20th century so this is more than just a mental exercise.

Most communities don't want mass immigration so you're contradicting yourself.

[Patriarch]

Borders are just community property, so leave the front door of your house open and don't complain when it's ransacked, everything of worth is missing or destroyed, and it's full of squatters with whom you share nothing in common, and you can't ask them to leave because they have an unalienable right to the wealth and standard of living you possess.

[ElBorrachoInfamoso]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014...have-3000/

Just saw this story and figured people on here would find it interesting. It's a pretty fucked up incentive Obama has created for businesses to discriminate against Americans. Probably many of you know I'm anti-ObamaCare. This shit wouldn't happen in a free market.

[tylerdurden1993]

Quote:

In IQ, I am smarter than all the anti-immigrant posters on this thread. But maybe all the standardized tests were wrong. Either way, they don't hand out PhDs in theoretical physics for being stupid.

In economics, I have been offered jobs by two of the leading economists in the world, each on opposite sides of the ideological spectrum.

Quote:

“There are some ideas so absurd that only an intellectual could believe them.”― George Orwell

[Soberane]

(11-23-2014 08:18 PM)L M McCoy Wrote:  

I think what's going on in this forum is exactly the mentality of America. Mainly Latino's thinking of their own people even if its at the expense of others. This naturally pisses tons of people off which is why I honestly don't get the point of this thread. It seems to just be an excuse to say "haha Obama is making it so X amount of my people can come even though it pisses all of you lol!" This is further emphasized by the picture of the tissues and stating "president Obama" not Obama but "president." Stating a person's title is a showing of respect which is obviously only being given due to the new circumstances of illegal immigration reform.

What does this say to the people who immigrated here legally? What does this say to the American's who have fought and turned this country into what it is today?

I compare America to Israel. immigrants are trying to come in by the thousands after we built the country from the ground up and fended off invasions. How many Mizrahi and Ashkenazi Jews have given their lives to build that nation?
[b]Where were they when we were fighting wars? After the hard work of building a successful country is done all these people want to immigrate which is a huge slap in the face of the people who have given their lives to build the aforementioned nation.
[/b]
People need to stop blaming racism because if their ancestors had built a country and paid for it with their blood only to have another people come in and reap what they have sown, they would be upset as well.

McCoy's .2

You think those same millions would be very happy to join or be drafted into the army? or happy that their paycheck will be lower after taxes? we are talking about people that were working, and getting tax free money, how long before they start to criticize high taxes and government expending?

[Native Baltimoron]

(11-27-2014 04:16 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

Did you even read what I wrote? If you did then you clearly didn't understand it. Go back, read it again. Pay close attention to "almost inconceivable" and "most parts of the world".

Historical implementation of both elections and peaceful transfers of power means they were more than merely conceivable. If, however, you meant that most people did not expect that their own governments would hold elections, I would not disagree.

(11-27-2014 04:16 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

Do you see where I transitioned from the ideal libertarian system to the practical liberal democratic system we do have? Did you notice where I said I was ok with this system, but thought it could be improved?

And positing the existence of an "ideal" system of government is at least philosophically tangent to Jacobinism. Further, the project of incrementally "improving" government is a large part of what has landed us in the current mess, in which a broken system of taxation supports a similarly ineffectual welfare state, while large corporations use regulatory lawfare to stifle more agile competitors.

(11-27-2014 04:16 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

Closed borders are part of the current system that I think needs to change. I do not believe there is a natural right to closed or open borders. Borders are inherently communal property and communities decided what laws govern communal property. I think borders should be more open and that we should rewrite the laws to make that so. We had open borders before the early 20th century so this is more than just a mental exercise.

The situation is different in large part because of the greater ease with which people move large distances, greatly facilitating mass migrations. Polling data and the recent election returns would argue that a majority of Americans do not, in fact, support more open borders. While you have a right to your opinion, your support for an unconstitutional usurpation of power imposing your preferred policies on an unwilling populace does not speak well of you.

[DoctaWho]

(11-27-2014 04:16 AM)ElBorrachoInfamoso Wrote:  

Closed borders are part of the current system that I think needs to change. I do not believe there is a natural right to closed or open borders. Borders are inherently communal property and communities decided what laws govern communal property. I think borders should be more open and that we should rewrite the laws to make that so. We had open borders before the early 20th century so this is more than just a mental exercise.

Borders define a country, state, city... If we do away with borders then we have to reevaluate the way certain things like infrastructure are paid for. Border are even more crucial in modern times because so many industrialized countries now provider services for people within their borders.

[Matt Forney]

Looks like there's some rule of law left in this country after all:

Quote:

WASHINGTON — One day before hundreds of thousands of undocumented immigrants were to begin applying for work permits and legal protection, administration officials on Tuesday postponed President Obama’s sweeping executive actions on immigration indefinitely, saying they had no choice but to comply with a federal judge’s last-minute order halting the programs.

The judge’s ruling was a significant setback for the president, who had asserted broad authority to take executive actions in the face of congressional Republicans’ refusal to overhaul the immigration system. White House officials have defended the president’s actions as legal and proper even as his adversaries in Congress and the states have accused him of vastly exceeding the powers of his office.

In a decision late Monday, Judge Andrew S. Hanen, of Federal District Court for the Southern District of Texas, in Brownsville, ruled in favor of Texas and 25 other states that had challenged Mr. Obama’s immigration actions. The judge said that the administration’s programs would impose major burdens on states, unleashing illegal immigration and straining state budgets, and that the administration had not followed required procedures for changing federal rules.

The most hilarious part? Obama's executive order was so poorly worded that Judge Hanen used it against him in his ruling.

Obama truly is the worst president we've ever had, not just in regards to policy (though he's plenty horrible on that front), but effectiveness. The man's more flaccid than an old man being fluffed by a fat chick. He has no ability to get his agenda passed, no clout, no will. Obama gets punked by Putin and other world leaders, has helped elect the biggest Republican majority in Congress in nearly a hundred years, and he can't even act like a tinpot dictator without getting his hands slapped. His sole legislative accomplishment, Obamacare, is destroying the middle class and further enriching the mega-rich in a way we haven't seen since NAFTA.

The only reasons people support Obama are fear and gimmedats. White SJW girls pull the lever for Democrats in fear of a mythical armada of patriarchal white rednecks who want to knock them up and handcuff them to the stove. Minorities vote Democrat because they're hooked on the IV drip of government entitlements, plus fear of a mythical armada of hood-wearing white rednecks coming to string them up from the nearest tree. But with the massive implosion of the "War on Women" in the past election, plus Asians now voting GOP (narrowly, but still), the glue that held together Obama's Coalition of the Fringes is gone.

Mark my words: 2016 will see a Republican in the White House again. If Hillary runs and wins, she'll do so by distancing herself from Obama as much as she can: if the GOP succeeds in tying her to him (not hard seeing as she was his Secretary of State, and one of the biggest reasons why Obama's foreign policy is such an abject failure), she will lose and lose hard.

Not that any of this matters (the country is still screwed), but just saying.

[CactusCat589]

Whoever that judge is, he is a saint. Honestly, the Republican refusal to do anything on immigration is better than Obama's and the left's idea of taking action. It's a pretty repugnant, thinly-veiled strategy to financially cripple the Southern states by serving them up on a silver platter to the hordes. That's all it comes down to. But I don't expect it to stick. The determination to ruin the country is too great.

What MidWest doesn't understand is First World - Third World dynamics. My dad's gone on business trips in Mexico. He loved the culture and enjoyment of football, the cuisine, the friendliness of the Mexican people, but in the end there's not one city in Mexico that is on the same level as NYC, LA (the non-ethnic/white parts), or even Boston. None were even on the same level as a second-tier city like Portland.

When you DON'T throttle immigration, you go from assimilation and gradual citizenship to reverse-gentrification. This is what is happening to entire cities, like in the case of Santa Anna. If the economic standing of Mexico and the USA were reversed, guys like MidWest would have the same viewpoints as Samseau and scorpion.

There's nothing racial about this, it's just that them's the facts. 50 million Mexican-Americans and 11 million Mexicans live in this country. What I'm saying is kick out the 11 million Mexicans because they're not Americans. No more delaying tactics so they can have kids and emotionally and morally take us hostage. No more bullshit. Ramp up the deportations. We're already drowning in trillions of dollars in debt - let's use a few hundred million to get them out of here. The bottom line is that, even as screwed as we are economically, we can recover if America had the same character it did only three decades ago. That means not voluntarily being invaded by millions of more hispanics.

But the problem is that the left has already won. They played the stalling game, weathered all of the Republican Party's woefully inadequate efforts to stem the tide - now the Latino voting base has been established, and we're done. They've escalated things so that the inevitable correction will be much more heated. Instead of a patient rate of deportation and lockdown of the borders, we'll have violence. And worse, they've subtly but fundamentally poisoned something sacred: the bonds between the Americans on the left and right.

Otherwise, we'd recover, even from another hundred trillion dollars of debt. Carthage recovered from the Roman indemnities in a single generation. They've declared an economic Civil War. The voters in Minnesota will never face the consequences of their actions, it's going to be states like Texas, Arizona, Nevada. Every 'gain' in immigration is another knife across the wrists of the Southern states to weaken their impact on future elections and national politics. The one exception of California is a lost cause anyway, so in their mind it's worth it.

This, more than any other factor, is why America is done for. Even in the most partisan moments of the era, the modern conservative side never sold out their liberal brothers to foreigners. Even the Iraq War engineered by the neocon elite served to tame gas prices and preservation of the petrodollar. But now the left has violated the guest right, and not just the elite liberal class. This is your average American stabbing his brother in the back. And when you stoop that low, our fate is sealed. The Democratic Party will win, but it will be the most tragic Phyrric victory of them all.

[speakeasy]

^^^ Very interesting perspective.

[The Black Knight]

Supreme Court heard arguments today on this retarded executive order stuff (DAPA and DACA); total abuse of position and WAY beyond the scope of the President's authority.

Quote:

The Supreme Court appeared closely divided along ideological lines during oral arguments Monday in a case that could determine President Barack Obama's legacy on immigration.

Conservative justices questioned Obama's authority to use executive actions to shield some 4 million undocumented immigrants from deportation. Chief Justice John Roberts and Justice Samuel Alito seemed particularly concerned with language in the administration's guidance that said the program's recipients would be "lawfully present," which they suggested would contradict immigration law.

"How is it possible to lawfully work in the United States without lawfully being in the United States?" Alito asked.

Roberts added: "I mean, they're lawfully present, and yet, they're present in violation of the law?"

Transcript: Supreme Court oral arguments on immigration executive action
Liberals on the bench seemed sympathetic to the administration's arguments. Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg noted at one point that there are 11.3 million undocumented aliens in the country and Congress has provided funds for removing about 4 million. "So inevitably, priorities have to be set," she said.

Justice Sonia Sotomayor said there are not enough resources to deport everyone. "They are here whether we want them or not," she said.

[...]

The White House announced the programs in November 2014, issuing a five-page guidance memo enabling qualifying undocumented workers to receive temporary relief from the threat of deportation and to apply for programs that could qualify them for work authorization and associated benefits.

The Deferred Action for Parents of Americans and Lawful Permanent Residents (DAPA) targets the nearly 4.3 million undocumented parents of citizens and lawful residents, and the second rule expands Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals (DACA), initiative aimed at non citizens who came to the country as children.

"We'll bring more undocumented immigrants out of the shadows so they can play by the rules, pay their full share of taxes, pass a criminal background check and get right with the law," Obama told an audience in Nevada after the programs were announced.

The programs remain frozen nationwide. They were first blocked by a federal judge in Texas and a divided federal appeals court later upheld the preliminary injunction.

Absolute insanity. What a huge slap in the the face to the people who jump through the million of hoops to come here legally.

Personally, this is what I would do (and this would be with Congressional approval):

1. Get rid of birthright citizen for all non-legal immigrants/residents going forward forever. This will end the incentive for people to come to the US and get an anchor baby and largely prevent this bullshit from happening again. If you show up illegally and have a kid on US soil, both you and your kid will be deported immediately. Even if it takes us a few years, you will go. No exceptions going forward.

2. Give work permits to these undocumented folks with kids under 18 but a lifetime ban (even after if they legally re-enter the country at a later date) on voting rights. We strip our own citizens of voting rights for being a felon so this shouldn't phase anybody. Must pay penalty taxes (one idea is to make them pay social security taxes but be ineligible for it). No social welfare benefits except food and healthcare for children.

3. Once kid turns 18, parent(s) have 12 months to go back to their country of origin and start at the back of the line for legal immigration if they want to come back. Failure to do will result in 10 year ban from entry into US. Come to the US again illegally will result in lifetime ban from US.

I'm not down with rewarding rule-breakers but I'm not comfortable with breaking apart families either nor sending people born here and culturally American to some foreign place 15-20 years after the fact. The son shouldn't pay for the sins of the father and the US really dropped the ball and allowed these shit to go on for way too long.

It's a VERY fair compromise that I think covers a lot of angles in an appropriate way. If the libtards don't like that (and I'm sure they won't), then it's full deportation for all illegals and the children they had as illegals.