[polar]

I'm a young guy so not in no hurry to get hitched or move in with a girl. That being said, I've been more of a serial monogamist for the last few years and enjoy the emotional connection (pursuing things on the side on and off).

In each relationship that's lasted more than several months the girls have called me out on being "closed off." On a superficial level the relationships are good, with a good balance of attraction / alpha and comfort / beta. My main girl right now, for instance, has made an ultimatum of sorts, saying that we can't go on if I don't become more open about my feelings, etc (I don't think the benefits are worth the costs). I'm concerned that I am the common link.

Having gotten into game after getting cheated on, I almost subconsciously maintain a certain level of emotional distance: avoid bringing up topics about past relationships, invest no more in the relationships than they do, try not to mix my main girls into my social circles, or discussing said social circles with them. I maintain an ambiguous status with my social circles and avoid bringing up the fact that I am not single. I let them push the relationship status forward and not being the one to ask if we're exclusive, etc. I subscribe to the idea that the man has to be the stronger one in the relationship, and that sharing feelings or relying on the woman for emotional support kills attraction and dries up the snatch.

How do you guys see "opening up" and "sharing feelings" in a LTR? How to balance that with maintaining attraction / soft dread and making sure that she doesn't use sex as a weapon?

[JayJuanGee]

(09-16-2014 01:06 AM)polar Wrote:  

I'm a young guy so not in no hurry to get hitched or move in with a girl. That being said, I've been more of a serial monogamist for the last few years and enjoy the emotional connection (pursuing things on the side on and off).

In each relationship that's lasted more than several months the girls have called me out on being "closed off." On a superficial level the relationships are good, with a good balance of attraction / alpha and comfort / beta. My main girl right now, for instance, has made an ultimatum of sorts, saying that we can't go on if I don't become more open about my feelings, etc (I don't think the benefits are worth the costs). I'm concerned that I am the common link.

Having gotten into game after getting cheated on, I almost subconsciously maintain a certain level of emotional distance: avoid bringing up topics about past relationships, invest no more in the relationships than they do, try not to mix my main girls into my social circles, or discussing said social circles with them. I maintain an ambiguous status with my social circles and avoid bringing up the fact that I am not single. I let them push the relationship status forward and not being the one to ask if we're exclusive, etc. I subscribe to the idea that the man has to be the stronger one in the relationship, and that sharing feelings or relying on the woman for emotional support kills attraction and dries up the snatch.

How do you guys see "opening up" and "sharing feelings" in a LTR? How to balance that with maintaining attraction / soft dread and making sure that she doesn't use sex as a weapon?

I am NOT sure exactly what you are getting at because it sounds like you have a lot of good ideas and practices in terms of controlling into which social circles you invite your girl(s); however, it does sound as if you could be providing too much latitude for the girl to define the terms of your relationship, especially if she is seeming to demand that you open up more.

On the other hand, if she is NOT really demanding that you open up, but she is just making those kinds of assertions, then there would be NO need to give in to her demands for you to be more open. You can just stall.

Ultimately, it seems that you need to be sufficiently clear with yourself about knowing yourself and knowing what you want, and surely that is NOT easy while you are a young guy (I am assuming in your early 20s).

Ultimately, if you are comfortable with yourself, then you should also have a pretty good sense about how many feelings to share with her - and part of the determination of the amount of feelings would depend upon how much time you are spending together (nights over or going on trips in which opportunities for feelings can be shared and further developed).. If she is talking about wanting feelings, in the sense of tying you down to a form of exclusivity, but you do NOT want to be tied down, then it may be time to just move on in the relationship.

Ultimately, you should be comfortable as to when and how much to share your feelings with the girl, and if the girl is complaining that you are NOT sharing enough feelings, then probably you each need more space from one another because she seems to be getting it in her head that she is defining how much feelings need to be shared.

Also, if you are agreeing with the girl to be monogamous - I mean this sounds like some potentially mutual pact or at least can evolve into such an understanding without even saying if you are NOT careful, but you implicitly agree to a form of monogamous status, and if all of a sudden, she moves on, then you will likely be left high and dry. Seems like if you are NOT really ready to be bound down to keep working on other potential relationships instead of binding yourself into such a state.

Surely, other RVF guys may consider this situation differently, but in these longer term relationships, I tend to just go with the flow and then to move on if the relationship seems to be moving in a direction that is too uncomfortable for me in terms of her coming up with demands that are NOT really working for me and my expectations.. but many times if you spend more than a few months seeing a girl, in my experience, they will tend to want to get into these feelings and exclusivity type discussions.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(09-16-2014 01:06 AM)polar Wrote:  

...
How do you guys see "opening up" and "sharing feelings" in a LTR? How to balance that with maintaining attraction / soft dread and making sure that she doesn't use sex as a weapon?

Don't. Your problems are yours and your worries are too. Be as balanced as possible. What the fuck does feeling-sharing mean anyway?

Don't share fears, weaknesses, tribulations.
If you want to - do it with your best male friend.

LTRs are best served by being Alpha and fun - sometimes with a splash of display of caring. When an Alpha collects flowers on some meadow for her it is a rare and stupendous treasure - or when he tells her he loves her, it is a moment to behold.

Just keep it rare and try to be the strongest version of yourself. But it should come naturally and not be staged - better to find that inner Alpha/Sigma mental state than to play someone.

Also healthy detachment found via meditation/contemplation and fucking many different women helps in being relaxed and outcome-independent.

If that girl you describe wants more commitment then you have to decide whether to go that route or next her. No reasons to get her hopes up high for years.

[kaotic]

(09-16-2014 02:02 AM)Zelcorpion Wrote:  

(09-16-2014 01:06 AM)polar Wrote:  

...
How do you guys see "opening up" and "sharing feelings" in a LTR? How to balance that with maintaining attraction / soft dread and making sure that she doesn't use sex as a weapon?

Don't. Your problems are yours and your worries are too. Be as balanced as possible. What the fuck does feeling-sharing mean anyway?

Don't share fears, weaknesses, tribulations.
If you want to - do it with your best male friend.

LTRs are best served by being Alpha and fun - sometimes with a splash of display of caring. When an Alpha collects flowers on some meadow for her it is a rare and stupendous treasure - or when he tells her he loves her, it is a moment to behold.

Just keep it rare and try to be the strongest version of yourself. But it should come naturally and not be staged - better to find that inner Alpha/Sigma mental state than to play someone.

Also healthy detachment found via meditation/contemplation and fucking many different women helps in being relaxed and outcome-independent.

If that girl you describe wants more commitment then you have to decide whether to go that route or next her. No reasons to get her hopes up high for years.

Completely agree with this, I'm not monogamous but my main girl is (at I assume).

I am the alpha to her, I'm funny and keep her laughing, I do keep her guessing also. I dominate her in the bedroom, I tease her about PDA and how we never do it. It's been 8 months and I haven't bought her flowers yet, but I know what she likes.

I have not said "i really like you" but I've said to her "you know you like me"

If I ever give her a compliment I always follow it by, that's your 1 compliment limit for the day.

I always catch myself having alot of feelings for her, so I keep it cool and reserved, but I DO show affection occasionally.

You say it sounds like an ultimatum, does it really sound like that to you?

Have you posed the question...."well what if this who I just am ?"

Turn it around on her, ask her why it's a problem. Ask if she'd rather have an emotionally attached guy, rather than a fun guy who keeps his cool.

I'd probably as far as to say she's over thinking thinking and over analyzing every little thing and that she needs to take a step back.

[Travesty]

I have been big into pump and dump no feelings at all for a very long time except a single exception which burned me.

Your ideas sound solid.

Now that I am focusing on mini-LTRs for mental health I am constantly shocked at just how long you have to remain emotionally distant from girls for such extended periods for them to give in and breakdown into emotional attachment.

It felt like a few years ago it was 2-3 months, now it feels more like 6 months to a year to mentally break them down first. I am not a fan of this trend.

[WestIndianArchie]

(09-16-2014 01:06 AM)polar Wrote:  

My main girl right now, for instance, has made an ultimatum of sorts, saying that we can't go on if I don't become more open about my feelings,

Haha,

What the fuck does this actually mean?

My feelings that I haven't shared?

"bitch, you used too much teeth last night, and I feel that your disregard for my personal pleasure is telling me something about the future of our relationship"

"Your best friend was acting real cunty just a second a go. I feel like she either wants the dick, or she wants you all to herself"

(09-16-2014 01:06 AM)polar Wrote:  

How do you guys see "opening up" and "sharing feelings" in a LTR? How to balance that with maintaining attraction / soft dread and making sure that she doesn't use sex as a weapon?

Problems I see right off bat
- you've got a main
- you really want to keep her in your life
- she's comfortable enough of you to make demands of you
- you're not really being honest with yourself about what this girl means to you, if you're willing to entertain her bullshit.

On the bigger level
- your approach to this female behavior problem is to modify your own behavior
- Most guys in the game don't want to admit they want to keep a particular girl around and are willing to compromise their beliefs to do so.

.....

In terms of technique

You have to ask her what she means, exactly.
Later on, you deploy what she's talking about,

And after you tell her that you felt some kind of way about her picking Butter Pecan to be one of the 3 flavors in your banana split, even though she knows that you lost a kitten to a Pecan tree when you were 8, .....

Slap her on the ass.

Whenever she asks for this sort of rapport, it's quid pro quo

player - "Man I had a tough day at work"
chick - "Tell me about it"
player - "Well the dude from Indian guy from IT..who really likes your picture I keep on my phone wallpaper.."
chick - "aww"
player "you know what would make me feel better?"
chick - "what?"
Player - "a steak, a beer, and a blow job, not necessarily in that order"


_______________________________________________________
(like this actually happens, more often than not when you attempt to go emotional this just triggers her to spew whatever BS she's been holding back on you - you actually never get your emotional needs met)

^And this is a great gambit to use actually. If she interrupts you, it's a great time to blow up and accuse her of being like all the other girls

"I finally open up to you, and you can't even let me tell my own story"
"Are you serious? Are you always this selfish? Needy? Controlling?"
"How can I be with someone like you"

DRAMA. (which she craves)

From there you can open up a lane where you have the right to smash into her emotional inner world.
____________________________________

Back to the topic.

What she is actually doing

a) she's seeking rapport and comfort - This girl is seeking rapport with you the exact same way she seeks rapport with her girlfriends. She doesn't realize that hearing you diarrhea from the mouth is just as unappealing as it is when her friends do it.

She doesn't know or realize.

b) She's seeking control - If you talk to her the way that she wants to be talked to, she's controlling you at a high level. You control the tone and language of a discussion, you basically can control the discussion.

This aspect of the game is much harder than the rest.

And her ability to get you to conform to her needs and wishes for continued access to pussy, and later on continued access to peace is the beginning of the end.

WIA

[kaotic]

(09-16-2014 02:18 PM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

(09-16-2014 01:06 AM)polar Wrote:  

My main girl right now, for instance, has made an ultimatum of sorts, saying that we can't go on if I don't become more open about my feelings,

Haha,

What the fuck does this actually mean?

My feelings that I haven't shared?

"bitch, you used too much teeth last night, and I feel that your disregard for my personal pleasure is telling me something about the future of our relationship"

"Your best friend was acting real cunty just a second a go. I feel like she either wants the dick, or she wants you all to herself"

(09-16-2014 01:06 AM)polar Wrote:  

How do you guys see "opening up" and "sharing feelings" in a LTR? How to balance that with maintaining attraction / soft dread and making sure that she doesn't use sex as a weapon?

Problems I see right off bat
- you've got a main
- you really want to keep her in your life
- she's comfortable enough of you to make demands of you
- you're not really being honest with yourself about what this girl means to you, if you're willing to entertain her bullshit.

On the bigger level
- your approach to this female behavior problem is to modify your own behavior
- Most guys in the game don't want to admit they want to keep a particular girl around and are willing to compromise their beliefs to do so.

.....

In terms of technique

You have to ask her what she means, exactly.
Later on, you deploy what she's talking about,

And after you tell her that you felt some kind of way about her picking Butter Pecan to be one of the 3 flavors in your banana split, even though she knows that you lost a kitten to a Pecan tree when you were 8, .....

Slap her on the ass.

Whenever she asks for this sort of rapport, it's quid pro quo

player - "Man I had a tough day at work"
chick - "Tell me about it"
player - "Well the dude from Indian guy from IT..who really likes your picture I keep on my phone wallpaper.."
chick - "aww"
player "you know what would make me feel better?"
chick - "what?"
Player - "a steak, a beer, and a blow job, not necessarily in that order"


_______________________________________________________
(like this actually happens, more often than not when you attempt to go emotional this just triggers her to spew whatever BS she's been holding back on you - you actually never get your emotional needs met)

^And this is a great gambit to use actually. If she interrupts you, it's a great time to blow up and accuse her of being like all the other girls

"I finally open up to you, and you can't even let me tell my own story"
"Are you serious? Are you always this selfish? Needy? Controlling?"
"How can I be with someone like you"

DRAMA. (which she craves)

From there you can open up a lane where you have the right to smash into her emotional inner world.
____________________________________

Back to the topic.

What she is actually doing

a) she's seeking rapport and comfort - This girl is seeking rapport with you the exact same way she seeks rapport with her girlfriends. She doesn't realize that hearing you diarrhea from the mouth is just as unappealing as it is when her friends do it.

She doesn't know or realize.

b) She's seeking control - If you talk to her the way that she wants to be talked to, she's controlling you at a high level. You control the tone and language of a discussion, you basically can control the discussion.

This aspect of the game is much harder than the rest.

And her ability to get you to conform to her needs and wishes for continued access to pussy, and later on continued access to peace is the beginning of the end.

WIA

WIA pretty much nailed those points, sound advice.

[horn]

If you want an LTR with an awesome girl, you have to emotionally invest at some point. Yes, I wait until they make it clear they are invested first, "I'm going to be exclusive with you," 'My bff wants to meet you next time we grab drinks,' whatever it is.

I make it clear I sincerely like them. Not just physicallly of course. What is the Roissy ratio of alpha in an LTR: 70-30%? That really sounds right to me. I think about it like this, if I'm dominating and controlling a girl Friday, Fri nite, Sat, Sat nite, by Sunday there has to be some reward for her - generally emotionally but possibly tangibly.

Girls who crave 100% assholes are well and truly fucked in the head. I avoid those. Try to find the avg/good girl who wants to be Bad with YOU. Make her connect on an emotional level as I think Mystery said a long long time ago. To get in her head as 'the one' you have to give a little.

[polar]

Thank you all for the good advice.

An update - I ended things with my main girl by mutual agreement tonight. I asked for an open relationship to force her hand (I feel like I'd stagnate if I were monogamous) and she said that if I'm not willing to invest more she'd rather break up. She left saying that I'd run into girls who wanted more commitment again and again, and strongly urged I consider seeing a therapist for my trust issues. Heh.

What I find ironic is that the peak of the relationship was when I had opened up completely and let my guard down - just a couple weeks prior. Stupid, stupid...

I've landed three new bangs since she started "reevaluating" things about a month ago, and had an insta-date and a date tonight. My game isn't far from its peak, and given that I'm officially single and no longer have to avoid her prime downtown campus area to avoid rumors, it's going to get much, much better.

I'm probably friend zoned now, but she will certainly hear about me hitting on her classmates soon.

WIA Wrote:

What she is actually doing

a) she's seeking rapport and comfort - This girl is seeking rapport with you the exact same way she seeks rapport with her girlfriends. She doesn't realize that hearing you diarrhea from the mouth is just as unappealing as it is when her friends do it.

She doesn't know or realize.

b) She's seeking control - If you talk to her the way that she wants to be talked to, she's controlling you at a high level. You control the tone and language of a discussion, you basically can control the discussion.

This aspect of the game is much harder than the rest.

And her ability to get you to conform to her needs and wishes for continued access to pussy, and later on continued access to peace is the beginning of the end.

WIA

Thank you. This is spot on. She got her ego talked up by her orbiters this summer "omigod your boyfriend is so lucky to have you, hope he recognizes it" and came back talking about how she is a rare breed and deserves the red carpet treatment. I wasn't going to place my balls into her purse and invest more for, at best, the same goods and falling libido.

In a nutshell, we both took bids on our SMVs and came back wanting to renegotiate a better deal. Neither one of us wanted to settle for the status quo, much less to take a worse deal than before.

She said she wanted more beta behavior, but I didn't bite.

kaotic Wrote:

You say it sounds like an ultimatum, does it really sound like that to you?

Have you posed the question...."well what if this who I just am ?"

Turn it around on her, ask her why it's a problem. Ask if she'd rather have an emotionally attached guy, rather than a fun guy who keeps his cool.

Another solid point. Like another one of my ex's, she couldn't stand that my best friend knew a lot more about me than her. I've played the "this is who I am" card before, only to have her try to change me and bury me in words.

(09-16-2014 12:56 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

I have been big into pump and dump no feelings at all for a very long time except a single exception which burned me.

Your ideas sound solid.

Now that I am focusing on mini-LTRs for mental health I am constantly shocked at just how long you have to remain emotionally distant from girls for such extended periods for them to give in and breakdown into emotional attachment.

It felt like a few years ago it was 2-3 months, now it feels more like 6 months to a year to mentally break them down first. I am not a fan of this trend.

Travesty, agreed. I met a chick who was really similar positive qualities as my main girl a couple of weeks ago, had a few excellent bangs, then lost her after not acting emotionally unavailable. Cured me out of thinking my main girl had a magic pussy, but I'm still pissed that this one didn't convert...she simply flaked without the decency of an overt rejection.

Here are my recent feelings on my month's gaming, related to your post: http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-24128-...#pid832077

[Valhalla]

This is something I've struggled with. I'm often accused of being too emotionally distant.

It's a difficult game to balance. Women will start to seek out betas to fulfill that part of their life.

[Dalaran1991]

I ve been in a LTR for 5 months now. It works for my current situation because I dont have time to game until October.

IMO whenever girls are complaining about you being too emotionally distant that means theres a chink in your game. Girls have their emotional needs fulfilled by their girlfriends and betas. She doesnt need nor want you to fulfill that emotional commitment. Whenever this happen she is just craving drama, or trying to manipulate you. In either case you have to game her again if you want to keep her.

WHen you said she told you to see a therapist girl trying to be all upity and thinks she can tell you what to do? Definitely was trying to pull your string with that emotional stuff.

Just as with everything girls say, dont ever take it seriously. Slap her ass "you are silly" and throw her on the bed and fuck her brain out. Better if she fights back and you have hate fuck. Problem solved.

[Lizard King]

Carry on as you are, you'll always have the upper hand.

I function the same way as you in the LTR I am in, and am told the same thing "emotionally closed etc", "difficult to progress". Due to Game and giving her mind blowing orgasms, the attraction is strong, and I nearly always remain in control of what happens.

I was having doubts as to whether I was being too distant, but have recently realised I'm doing fine. If the relationship ends, or changes format, I have plenty of options, and will definitely NOT hit a dry spell. Thanks to Game and digesting knowledge here.

[Lizard King]

'Ultimatums' vary. In an LTR a certain amount of beta-ness/occasional mild supplication to keep it going.

Some ultimatums I would create an air of response to, and feign activity towards it.

others I would say 'My way, or the high way; I make the ultimatums around here.'

In certain situations I would next a girl for delivering an ultimatum, have done before without regret.

(09-17-2014 01:34 AM)Valhalla Wrote:  

This is something I've struggled with. I'm often accused of being too emotionally distant.

It's a difficult game to balance. Women will start to seek out betas to fulfill that part of their life.

If she is using an orbiter as an emotional tampon, that is better for you isn't it? It suits me better.

If you want sexual loyalty and she strays, then get rid of her.

Emotional loyalty is different to some people. I rate sexual loyalty higher, but others place them equal.

I suspect the average under-35 year old Western female has a reasonable entourage of willing betas to sooth her ego and provide validation etc.. Not something you can do much about. Isolating her socially is possessive, needy and controlling in the wrong kind of way.

[polar]

(09-17-2014 04:24 AM)Trev Wrote:  

Carry on as you are, you'll always have the upper hand.

I function the same way as you in the LTR I am in, and am told the same thing "emotionally closed etc", "difficult to progress". Due to Game and giving her mind blowing orgasms, the attraction is strong, and I nearly always remain in control of what happens.

I was having doubts as to whether I was being too distant, but have recently realised I'm doing fine. If the relationship ends, or changes format, I have plenty of options, and will definitely NOT hit a dry spell. Thanks to Game and digesting knowledge here.

(09-17-2014 04:50 AM)Trev Wrote:  

'Ultimatums' vary. In an LTR a certain amount of beta-ness/occasional mild supplication to keep it going.

Some ultimatums I would create an air of response to, and feign activity towards it.

others I would say 'My way, or the high way; I make the ultimatums around here.'

In certain situations I would next a girl for delivering an ultimatum, have done before without regret.

(09-17-2014 01:34 AM)Valhalla Wrote:  

This is something I've struggled with. I'm often accused of being too emotionally distant.

It's a difficult game to balance. Women will start to seek out betas to fulfill that part of their life.

If she is using an orbiter as an emotional tampon, that is better for you isn't it? It suits me better.

If you want sexual loyalty and she strays, then get rid of her.

Emotional loyalty is different to some people. I rate sexual loyalty higher, but others place them equal.

I suspect the average under-35 year old Western female has a reasonable entourage of willing betas to sooth her ego and provide validation etc.. Not something you can do much about. Isolating her socially is possessive, needy and controlling in the wrong kind of way.

That's what held it together before - high emotional intensity when we were together and the best, most intense sex she's had. In hindsight, it may have been possible to give this a shot in the arm by upping there intensity and having a few wild monkey sex sessions, but I couldn't bring myself to go through the motions to get in her pants.

What happened was that while she was away for a few weeks orbiters built her up to the point she was convinced her value was higher than previously. I wasn't around to counteract.

If there was an assumption of emotional loyalty, that's more important to me, as you have emotional loyalty you'll likely have the sexual kind as well.

Fuck it. I'll try for the breakup bang. Anyway, there's new girls turning 18 every day and the semester just started!

[Lizard King]

(09-17-2014 06:53 AM)polar Wrote:  

That's what held it together before - high emotional intensity when we were together and the best, most intense sex she's had. In hindsight, it may have been possible to give this a shot in the arm by upping there intensity and having a few wild monkey sex sessions, but I couldn't bring myself to go through the motions to get in her pants.

What happened was that while she was away for a few weeks orbiters built her up to the point she was convinced her value was higher than previously. I wasn't around to counteract.

If there was an assumption of emotional loyalty, that's more important to me, as you have emotional loyalty you'll likely have the sexual kind as well.

Fuck it. I'll try for the breakup bang. Anyway, there's new girls turning 18 every day and the semester just started!

You sound like you just needed confirmation you were doing the right thing.

There is little advice I could give you other than take chances, and create opportunities.

[horn]

I think if you are with a hot, fun, young girl and she genuinely likes you, and you like having her around, and are having intense sex - being a cold and distant asshole is a problem [for both of you].
Every girl gets insecure and we feed that sometimes, but other times they just want to be told they are smart, or pretty, or funny, not disposable to you, or just want their hair stroked after sex so it 'feels' like you really care a ton. Something other than you passing out or running back to the football game. I'm talking minimal effort here - not roses, no romantic notecards, no dramatic confessions.

Sometimes ultimatums come up, and yes you should just call their bluff. I simply tell them if they don't want to be with me I have no interest in them either.

But seriously, if you bend a little bit emotionally in your normal mini-LTR/LTR, everything becomes pretty easygoing and fun. They stop testing you. They may even say a harem is fine as long as they're in it. And the intensity of the sex goes even higher.
That I can tell you has been true for every girl I've had mini-LTR or LTRs with. Once they've made that emotional connection they may cry after sex once in a while because it was so intense for them, but they *will * do anything for you. [almost] Anything....no girl wants to lose that connection.

If you want to move on, let her down easy and once she realizes it's over, she may even offer to tell her hot friend who's always liked you that you're available now - because she wants the next girl to be worthy, so she can have a great experience too. That doesn't happen overnight though, and may never happen. But don't be surprised if it does....and you know which of her hot friends you'd love to bang, don't you?

[Nomad77]

Very simple, as long as you follow her emotionally you are safe. Whatever emotions she is showing, give her back 80%. If she say you are being cold, just tell you have no choice because she is being cold too. You can even go so far as to tell her that you are not allowed to show more emotions than she does.

The cardinal rule is: follow emotionally but lead physically and sexually.

PS You are naturally sort of closed though. That's just more about your personality. Some people are more open and other are more closed.