[Every10GivesMeA10]

they have it easy because attractrion is still the most important factor in the 'game.'... if she isn't attracted to you physically, is it really worth it to try to 'game' her? best to find your best spot where girls dig your look. i wouldn't put hours of effort into one girl if i feel that im not getting anything back from her

[eradicator]

(09-02-2014 11:15 PM)Travesty444 Wrote:  

Like if you showed guys in the 1960s how much effort guys put into the weight room, diet, and supps today that DON'T get paid to play sports (ludicrous haha)...

In another 20-30 years from now nanotech surgery and genetic modifications will be the rage.

$ will destroy game utterly in 30 years.

You will be able to buy 9+ looks without the plastic surgery clown face.

The notion to accept what you were born with and do your best with it will be scoffed at.

Our "game history" will be a foot note that spanned a few decades in the future of these modifications, sex robots, and virtual realities.

I could have swore I read some whacked out science fiction as a kid where the super wealthy people were essentially living forever by buying younger and younger cybernetic bodies to stay young and live forever. I don't know if I necessarily buy that this is right around the corner.

And at what cost? if it cost 1Billion per year to keep a 100 year old man fit and healthy like a man in his 20s, how many people would really be able to do this? how many would go into debt trying to?

[dog24]

(09-03-2014 12:25 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

To maximize accuracy I'd go with the conservative estimate, since all guys have a natural tendency to overstimate the looks of themselves and the girls they attract. If you think you can run don't fuck up game on 5-5.5's, it's really 5's and your a 6.

I have never seen in my entirely life a 5 throwing herself at a 6 guy or making it easy for him, i dont even recall any moment when i have seen any type of girl throwing herself at a 6 guy.
The only guys who can run dont fuck up game is really good looking guys (as in model looks)
I also agree with the poster that said being good looking is not the same as having model looks.
Those are the only guys getting one night stands with hot girls on a regular basis.

[Deluge]

(09-03-2014 02:47 AM)dog24 Wrote:  

(09-03-2014 12:25 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

To maximize accuracy I'd go with the conservative estimate, since all guys have a natural tendency to overstimate the looks of themselves and the girls they attract. If you think you can run don't fuck up game on 5-5.5's, it's really 5's and your a 6.

I have never seen in my entirely life a 5 throwing herself at a 6 guy or making it easy for him, i dont even recall any moment when i have seen any type of girl throwing herself at a 6 guy.
The only guys who can run dont fuck up game is really good looking guys (as in model looks)

I didn't say throwing themselves at you, I said not needing much work. Perhaps a better description is the quality of girls who'll often check you out in public, they're already attracted to you just based off your looks so you don't need to spit air tight game to get them into you, the initial spark is already there for you. I'm not saying they'll throw themselves at you if their 1 point below, but they'll be keen. The good thing is you can improve your number over time by improving your physique and style, it's not fixed.

EDIT: I'll add a caveat that in a nightclub the gap needs to be bigger because the girls are getting approached. The 1 point gap metric works most consistently for me in the daytime out in public.

[Simeon_Strangelight]

(09-03-2014 02:47 AM)dog24 Wrote:  

I have never seen in my entirely life a 5 throwing herself at a 6 guy or making it easy for him, i dont even recall any moment when i have seen any type of girl throwing herself at a 6 guy.

In my opinion it is not enough to be 6 or 7 in looks to have girls approach you.

You need 8-9 in looks - 8 being almost model-looks, but maybe not tall enough or not quite top-notch-model quality.

9 being tall enough, good-looking enough and fit enough to be a professional model.

Those 2 kinds of guys are the only ones I have seen, who were being approached aggressively by women.

Being a 6 or 7 as a man is enough to get some IOIs and run more successful Game. Many guys in the Game-community and PUAs fall into those categories. Some pros are even 5s & score like a male 8, but they teach Game for a living. And frankly attractiveness for a guy is more than his face - if he is 6ft, in great shape, well dressed, has the right race and look for the country, has a good posture - then the guy may be a facial 4, but he probably is upped by the female brain to a 6. With Game and dominance he goes up another 1 to 2 points. With Fame or extreme Wealth he may go up another 1 to 2 points. But you simply cannot discount looks - especially nowadays where women are taught to behave like guys.

But yeah - that is very different to a guy who starts out as an 8+ - women react strongly only to the very upper echelon of male attraction - the rest have to work hard for it - even the guy barely below his 8+ mate.

[Deluge]

Only the truly good looking (8+/10) guys get approached, and even then it's "indirect" and not from the quality of girl they ought to be fucking anyway.

I can see why guys might be skeptical about my 1 point rule, because almost everyone over-estimates their own attractiveness. A guy will think hes a 7, and since he'll get some attraction straight off the bat with 5's he'll mistakenly think you need to be 2 points higher then a girl for your looks to do some of the work for you. In reality he's a 6, but for a person to admit they're anything less than 7 is too much for their ego to handle.

Now imagine how hard it is for the typical guy, who is actually a 5. This is sad, because admitting that you are not attractive is the first step a man must take to improve his attractiveness.

Unfortunately, even guys who are objectively above average are considered below average by woman. From OKC stats:





"As you can see from the gray line, women rate an incredible 80% of guys as worse-looking than medium. Very harsh. On the other hand, when it comes to actual messaging, women shift their expectations only just slightly ahead of the curve, which is a healthier pattern than guys’ pursuing the all-but-unattainable. But with the basic ratings so out-of-whack, the two curves together suggest some strange possibilities for the female thought process, the most salient of which is that the average-looking woman has convinced herself that the vast majority of males aren’t good enough for her, but she then goes right out and messages them anyway."

[Sourcecode]

I just realized girls have been falling into my lap. solely because I look good.
All this time I thought girls were just being nice when they said I looked like famous singers..

I guess my game isn't as good as I thought it was.

I still think my advice is relevant thought..I worked years on my game so I wouldn't make small fuck ups

[Deluge]

(09-03-2014 07:34 AM)Sourcecode Wrote:  

I just realized girls have been falling into my lap. solely because I look good.
All this time I thought girls were just being nice when they said I looked like famous singers..

I guess my game isn't as good as I thought it was.

I still think my advice is relevant thought..I worked years on my game so I wouldn't make small fuck ups

[Saweeep]

(09-02-2014 11:36 PM)LeBeau Wrote:  

Moving towards some actionable advice and inspiration, one of the biggest things guys can do to improve their facial features is dial their body fat down even tighter.

Here's 50 different face transformations from losing fat, mostly guys, but some of the girls are a striking difference too:

http://i.imgur.com/Z67zk.jpg

The thing with body fat that people often don't realise is that facial aesthetics seem the last thing to change as one gets leaner.

I've been training extra hard lately to get down to 10% and I found that at about 16% people suddenly started to notice I had slimmed down and indicated that it was my face that alerted them. Women much more than men.

I'm still a long way from a totally chiselled jawline!

[game_ethic]

everyone post their pics so we can judge each other's facial aesthetics

/s

[BadgerHut]

(09-02-2014 11:36 PM)LeBeau Wrote:  

Moving towards some actionable advice and inspiration, one of the biggest things guys can do to improve their facial features is dial their body fat down even tighter.

Here's 50 different face transformations from losing fat, mostly guys, but some of the girls are a striking difference too:

http://i.imgur.com/Z67zk.jpg

That is a fucking awesome jpg. What's really interesting is the change in the guys' facial expressions - as you go from left to right, most of the guys go from a geeky/beta/blank look to a stone-cold focus or the occasional shit-eating grin.

The human mind seems to be semi-conscious of its body's sexual value, and often plays accordingly.

[BadgerHut]

(09-03-2014 01:35 AM)eradicator Wrote:  

I could have swore I read some whacked out science fiction as a kid where the super wealthy people were essentially living forever by buying younger and younger cybernetic bodies to stay young and live forever. I don't know if I necessarily buy that this is right around the corner.

This probably belongs more in the arts and letters category but that sounds like a sci-fi'd retelling of the vampire mythos - capturing the essence of other living things to prolong or re-energize your own existence.

[jamaicabound]

This is definately true and really no surprise. Guys and girls with good looks can kind of coast on looks and wait to be approached and still do pretty well. If you're average looking you really have to have a good personality or good sense of humor to draw them in. I had a group of buddies in college who were not hideous but not much to look at and always joked about this, they really prided themselves on being funny and life of the party and easygoing and just great personality and all did way better with chicks than you would expect.

[General Mayhem]

(09-03-2014 05:12 AM)Deluge Wrote:  

Only the truly good looking (8+/10) guys get approached, and even then it's "indirect" and not from the quality of girl they ought to be fucking

In my experience this is pretty accurate. I don't think people don't understand that being good looking doesn't mean that you can just sit at the bar and get approached by 9s all night.

The girls that approach me aren't usually the ones I want to bang. The girls I want to bang I actually have to approach.

The difference is that most of the time the girls I want to fuck wind up in my orbit, and they make it very easy for me to have conversations with them. I've watched 8s eye fuck me, then move literally 2ft away from me. I still have to initiate the conversation though. Do they help facilitate the conversation more? Yes.

I think good looking guys don't get outright approached more often because it would absolutely wreck a girl's ego to get turned down, especially good looking girls, because nobody outright rejects them. It's safer for them just to orbit.

I get approached by 6s and 7s but they are usually delusional.

To get back on topic, I think a good looking guy can give good advice if he understands game isn't the same for the majority of guys as it is for him.

You can't really use negs as a good looking guy. Your value is already higher and it's overkill. I get the best results when I just sit back, smirk, and play it cool. At the same time I understand that most guys don't have that luxury.

That's probably because as a good looking guy attraction is already there, and you have to focus more on comfort. Most guys are going to have to work harder to build attraction.

This really hit me when I had this 7.5 tell me, "you could have any girl in this bar" and she kept talking like she couldn't understand why I was choosing to spend my time talking to her. At that point I realized comfort was probably more important than busting on this girl.

All that isn't to say you don't need to have game as a good looking guy. I still think game is more important than looks, because if I want to really maximize my potential I need to know what the fuck I'm doing. I've lost plenty of 8s and 9s who threw themselves at me initially, but I did something retarded to fuck it up. Is it true you get more leeway as a good looking guy? Yes, especially with 7s, but you can still fuck it up with 8s and 9s if you don't know what you are doing.

Girls also make different assumptions about you. I get assumed to be a player almost 100% of the time. They almost expect me to have a harem built up. I'm not bragging here, I'm just telling you things I have heard over the years. So you have be congruent with that, otherwise girls will think something is wrong with you, but at the same time you want to downplay it.

I've been told how good looking I am my whole life, but I still love game. It doesn't matter what you look like in my opinion, you still need to have that hunger. Otherwise you are just a chump. Any guy who doesn't hustle regardless of looks is a loser in my opinion. You should always find ways to get better.

Do I have the same experiences as most guys? No, but I still think I have something to offer.

Hopefully that helps some people understand the difference.

[Dusty]

My whole life, I've never known any guy who was attractive enough to pull top shelf pussy on a consistent basis. I've known a few who have snagged hot chicks and then hang on to them for years. But I've never known any guy who just goes out every weekend and pulls 8+'s.

I'm in my 40s so most of the tall and good looking guys I've known (no homo) were in their prime before game knowledge was ubiquitous. So maybe good looking guys are pulling better now.

Nonetheless this supports the theory that it's not enough for guys to be tall and good looking to be playas, they need some game too.

[BadgerHut]

(09-03-2014 12:02 PM)General Mayhem Wrote:  

This really hit me when I had this 7.5 tell me, "you could have any girl in this bar" and she kept talking like she couldn't understand why I was choosing to spend my time talking to her. At that point I realized comfort was probably more important than busting on this girl.

...

Girls also make different assumptions about you. I get assumed to be a player almost 100% of the time. They almost expect me to have a harem built up.

It's interesting how this works - if you're a guy who has attraction established coming in the door (good looks/fame), girls' minds can turn to a "show me you aren't going to pump and dump me" kind of loyalty-test frame. Most of your "game" will be playing it cool, giving little hints that you aren't a vicious player, and letting her emotions take over.

Whereas if you don't have apparent attractive power, much of your gametime will be spent getting her attracted to you, then running the comfort gig to convince her you aren't a creepy stalker.

This has been observed in LTRs as well, if a man works out/makes more money/etc raises his attraction(/alpha) value, he'll start getting "loyalty tests" where his gal is asking for signals that she can trust him and he cares about her and isn't going to take his show on the road. Guys sometimes mistake these for shit tests, and provide aloof answers, which further amplifies her anxiety and has bad effects on the relationship.

Or sometimes his wife subconsciously assumes she can't keep up, and does something to destroy the relationship.

[Catch 22]

I don't know. Not sure what to make of this thread. I doubt I'm 8+ and I've been approached plenty of times. Not sure which one I am, but I'm just going to forget it, focus on my game, and try to get more notches and higher quality.

[Travesty]

General Mayhem let out another truth kernel.

If a cocky teasing attitude is used by a guy on Western 7's or below it is guaranteed he is not an 8.

He doesn't have to. Practically ever haha. On 8+ chicks sure, but his leeway is huge.

From personal experience my leeway for beta trip ups as a 7.0 hitting on a Western 8+ is roughly zero haha.

The best advice to take from good looking guys is to watch and emulate their carefree abundance mentality. Also since they are better looking they usually hang with good looking crowds with good style so taking style notes is a plus.

Their carefree jovial attitude is also something to mimick.

My favorite threads on RVF are the guys giving advice like "why are you guys going on dates? get them to come directly to your place off the bat and bang" oh man what a life haha.

[el mechanico]

Have you ever met a Good looking guy with antigame? It's hilarious.

[kinjutsu]

(09-03-2014 01:18 PM)BadgerHut Wrote:  

(09-03-2014 12:02 PM)General Mayhem Wrote:  

This really hit me when I had this 7.5 tell me, "you could have any girl in this bar" and she kept talking like she couldn't understand why I was choosing to spend my time talking to her. At that point I realized comfort was probably more important than busting on this girl.

...

Girls also make different assumptions about you. I get assumed to be a player almost 100% of the time. They almost expect me to have a harem built up.

It's interesting how this works - if you're a guy who has attraction established coming in the door (good looks/fame), girls' minds can turn to a "show me you aren't going to pump and dump me" kind of loyalty-test frame. Most of your "game" will be playing it cool, giving little hints that you aren't a vicious player, and letting her emotions take over.

Whereas if you don't have apparent attractive power, much of your gametime will be spent getting her attracted to you, then running the comfort gig to convince her you aren't a creepy stalker.

This has been observed in LTRs as well, if a man works out/makes more money/etc raises his attraction(/alpha) value, he'll start getting "loyalty tests" where his gal is asking for signals that she can trust him and he cares about her and isn't going to take his show on the road. Guys sometimes mistake these for shit tests, and provide aloof answers, which further amplifies her anxiety and has bad effects on the relationship.

Or sometimes his wife subconsciously assumes she can't keep up, and does something to destroy the relationship.

I've had this happen with a few girlfriends...
I read their tests as shit test and responding accordingly the result was her doing dumb jealous girl shit.
In fact it ruined a relationship with a girl i could've settled down with.
With that being said it all depends on what type of guy you are...
Are you a cold guy that's just in it for the notches or are you a kinda warm person with women and want to leave them better than you found them.

[Switch]

I think it's basically a difference between those who're redpill and understand the concept of game and those who aren't. A good looking redpill guy can probably still give good advice (ala Christian McQueen). But a good looking guy who is bluepill can still get laid based off of looks, therefore doesn't understand 'traditional game' and won't give good advice. An average dude, regardless of looks, is going to give you terrible game advice. Being ugly/average is not a requirement to understand game and its concepts.

[Sourcecode]

this.

long story short.
girls will put themselves in my vicinity..But I still have to do the work

[Pride male]

Heartiste has a post on this topic called Guys without game who get laid. Dont know how to do the whole link thing when the words turn blue.

[mbare]

"If you have the choice between being lucky, or being good, always choose lucky."

The thing is, is being a good looking (lucky) guy you'll obviously have more girls coming after you. We all know this. But I think there's a point of diminishing returns for "good looking" guys if they have no game.

Game is the great equalizer. This was never more evident until I met the guy who got me into game. He's not a bad looking guy, but definitely wasn't good looking. He also wasn't in great shape, however always had a harem of attractive women.

I think you can take advice from good looking guys, so as long as they're red pill and have actively been trying to game girls who are on their par or better. If they only hook up with the 7's who are constantly throwing themselves at them, then no...they probably have very little advice to offer.

Game is also massively important to continue a relationship with these women, especially for harem building, and not being a little beta bitch simp. My friend who is 6'3" and probably considered an 8 has zero alpha qualities, and I know for a fact I've pulled way more quality girls than he has. As El Mech pointed out, he would sometimes have anti game. I'll keep my shorter height any day with my game and mentality, over being tall.

The last point:
You'll know you're doing something right in your game, when a girl/girls you're dating or having SNLs with, tells you they normally have sex with taller, better looking guys, etc. That there was just something about you...

[Dusty]

(09-03-2014 01:51 PM)el mechanico Wrote:  

Have you ever met a Good looking guy with antigame? It's hilarious.

Yeah I know a 6'5" guy who the ladies consider handsome. He acts bashful and shy around women. It turns them off. He still pulls, but he's never used his god given gifts to their potential because of weak inner game ( that only seems to come out around hot bitches).