[Bushido]

(08-20-2014 02:14 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

Hmmm...seems to be a recurring theme that Japan may differ a bit in this aspect.

Man, the Japanese would love you for saying that. They pride themselves on their uniqueness.

(08-20-2014 02:14 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

I do find that the Japanese I've met are much more on the level when it comes to conversation than citizens of other Asian countries. They also seem far more upfront, open-minded, and intellectually curious (the ones who travel, anyhow).

Some of the older guys are interesting to talk to. Especially the ones who wouldn't normally talk to foreigners.

Might want to lower your expectations for conversation with Japanese girls though, unless your idea of intellectual curiosity is talking about cute puppies, food and general cuteness.

[Beyond Borders]

^ The ones I've met traveling in Cambodia are a little more "evolved" than that - but again, most likely because they are independent travelers. Always a different breed.

I'm sure it's much like the difference between Americans you meet abroad and those that never leave.

[Beyond Borders]

I'm also curious where Filipinas fit in this regard. Given their Catholic background and association with the Spanish and American, I imagine at least large portions of the populations have a stronger attachment to guilt than shame.

What say you?

[Chaos]

(08-20-2014 03:29 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

I'm sure it's much like the difference between Americans you meet abroad and those that never leave.

I'm curious about that difference.
People often use to make fun of how "stupid" and "narrowminded" Americans are that they meet somewhere when they are traveling. (Outside USA).

I recall one friend told me that's because the Americans usually young people are meeting is in some hostel in Europe or SEA. And those are usually some dumb spoiled rich which parents are paying everything for. But when you go to the US you'll meet normal down to earth people like everywhere else.

Any truth in this?

[Beyond Borders]

^ There are some very down to earth people in the states. However, the ignorance and seemingly-shallow nature of the masses can be a bit mind-numbing at times.

[El Chinito loco]

(08-20-2014 03:35 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

I'm also curious where Filipinas fit in this regard. Given their Catholic background and association with the Spanish and American, I imagine at least large portions of the populations have a stronger attachment to guilt than shame.

What say you?

The thing about Filipinas is that a lot of the deeper cultural inclinations are still very culturally SEA. Filipinos share a lot of blood and culture ancestry with the Malay people whose bloodlines are prevalent throughout SEA. This is especially true if you go out there in the provinces. The behavior, culture, and even a lot of the food is very much standard SEA fare.

There is internal guilt when it comes to certain things but it doesn't necessarily stop them from doing it. Face rules still apply over what we think of as the moral compass. That's why you have politicians there who have no problems with loading up their truck with public funds on Friday, whoring on Saturday, ,going to church on Sunday, and then ordering a hit on their rival on Monday.

The big moral cognitive dissonance shows up in things like sex too. They put up that religious catholic guilt front and give the token LMR speech about being traditional, god fearing, etc.. However, at the end of the day the panties are certainly coming off if she likes you. Filipinas also don't care much about contraception and have loads of kids. Like I said..very Catholic in a lot of ways.

[Onto]

One thing we should keep in mind is morality is a mascuine principle so women in general don't see it as primary.

They will be faithful and truthful so long it's in their best interests and it's up to us to make sure it will be, and to also remove situations where tempations can occur.

Another strategy for broaching the subject with a woman would be to notice a friend or someone else doing the lying thing. Later, when your alone, you could bring up that person's behavior, ask what she thinks about it, talk about the concept of face, and at some point mention your expectations and the consequences that would come if someone were to lie to you. This way the conversation is not about her directly, but she gets the message.

[TravelerKai]

(08-19-2014 02:17 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(08-19-2014 12:43 PM)Sonsowey Wrote:  

If this is a huge issue for you, and you find that it is endemic throughout Asia, why not go to Europe and find women who share your basic morals to a degree?

Anyone can lie of course but if you think Asian morality about lying is just too different than western morality, western girls would seem to be what you want.

Yes, that's obviously an option.

I prefer Asian women, by far, but I'm not against moving beyond that phase at some point. This is just an issue that is often skipped over when guys mention that they'll probably marry an Asian girl, so I thought it would make for interesting discussion.

I know there are also men on the board happily married with Asian girls who wouldn't have it any other way, and I'm curious about their experiences and thoughts in this department, if any.

That's interesting you brought this up. I removed a whole chapter from my dating guide on dealing with this, because very few people used to ask me about this. So instead I just put a small piece in there about it. I figured if it came up later I would just help that person with understanding it. Chinese women, as well as many other Asian women, talk around subjects and questions alot. Like Dreambig said, deflection and indirection. A Mainland Chinese guy that read my guide last year wrote out a very detailed explanation about this and I will post it here. Please forgive his poor English. I will fix some of the grammar as well.

Quote:

In previous topic, some mentioned about a problem that annoyed you. You thought about the reason but couldn't see one. Well, actually it's pretty simple, the answer has been there all along. As you said in your topic : it's about saving "face", and chinese women major fear. Yes, that's it.

Let me break it this way :
1. "Save" face?
Yes, it is. But in your wife's case sir, it's a good way to save her "face". Why? You're absolutely right. Chinese women tends to give a roundabout, long-winding, story with details you don't even asked just to have the same answer as to-the-point answer to your question. Yes 90% of them do, my mother and my ex too, and westerners hate this kind of stuffs. They'd prefer a direct-to-the-point answer. BUT, chinese women don't think so. She gave you a long long roundabout way because..

*She Just Don't Want You To Have Any Bad/Negative Thought Of Her

You will probably think, why would you? She didn't do anything bad. Let me tell you this,

*Buy Clothes Without Telling/Ask Her Husband And Get Permission Is Enough To Make A Good Chinese Girl Feels Guilty

Think it's crazy? Well, politeness and family order is everything in china. Even when you want to eat alone, you must offer it your parents/husband/elder relatives first, like a soldier ask his officer permission to go. LOL.
So when things like your case happened in china, the husband will think of his wife as a bad woman that used their money to buy clothes (when all she said wants to buy some food) without his permission. Well, it's all about culture.

2. Major fear?
Yep, fear of the husband getting mad at her.
You should have seen many of those "Angry Husband"s already right?
Beating wife, drag her by her hair, pull her around barefoot, and all of those kinds. Those things probably,or usually happened because the husband feels not being well-respected by his wife (like not doing what he told her, questioning his whereabout last night and don't believe him, etc even the littlest and most ridiculous things you won't even imagine). That's the reason why..

*She Wants To Explain All The Situations First To The Tiniest Details To Avoid Misunderstanding That Will Get You Mad

And why would I get mad? No, I believe you won't. And majority of western guys won't too. Who's crazy enough just to get mad over few pieces of clothes for his beloved wife? And you would probably think "She don't believe me? She thinks I'm a brute?"
Duh, no! Absolutely not! The thing is,

*It's In Her Blood. That Woman In China Have Lower Status, The Environtment That She Grew Up Molded It That Way To Her Subconscious Mind And Will Keep For A Long Long Time Even If She's Not In China

It's psychological and really long to explain.
But it means that her brain will unconciously thinks like that married couple in china and as husband you'll beat her if something is wrong.

Sometimes even your most normal questions will be taken as an interogative one and become a source of guilty (think of it like you're being interogated by the polices, even though you've done nothing you will still think/feel a bit that you've done something.

Feeling guilty and because excessive worrying starts to think that you must have done something wrong), therefore it's a must to explains in detail because she's afraid. But strangely, this even happens with colleagues? Look at the story :

Me : where are you?
Mimi : ah, I my phone low batt. And Yaqi is stingy won't lend her phone
Me : yaqi is with you? Where are you?
Mimi : yes, she asks me "are you coming or not?". Where are you? I'm in yaqi's car
Me : And where is yaqi car?
Mimi : west side of campus, the red one

Took long enough just to try to ask "where are you?", longer than the time needed to arrive at the destination
Yes, these things happen. And mostly, you will walk with "rage" faces. But, think of this. When you look at it, from her point of view. She's just trying to explain her situations first. And when I arrived, she told me that she's sorry for not to answer the call because her battery low and need to charge first at yaqi's car. But I only call once?
Yes, she's feeling guilty because I might be calls her a couple of times. That's why she go aroundabout way of explaining first then answer. That's the way chinese women go
Please don't blame them
Thank you

When he told me this ~ a year ago, I was a confused at first, but what he said started making perfect sense the longer time passed while married to her. When we were engaged, I definitely did not understand all that round-about-talking and it really frustrated me.

My wife still does this. Just like this guy predicted. He said it best, even though she is no longer living in China, we will continue to do this. It's culturally and psychologically driven.

Some things that I have done to mitigate me getting frustrated over a few certain issues, is that I sit her down and spend an hour or two explaining the urgency for a straight answer with no saving face talk. I speak very sternly and stand over her while she is sitting down. There are a few things I must have a straight answer for with no bullshit for safety and financial reasons. Talking like that in the US with other people outside of me could get someone killed if time is of the essence. For emergency related matters, I had to get this point across to her that, Americans do not have time for that bullshit and will NOT be patient with her to talk around a subject. I may not be around and if she has a car accident for example, she must follow a list of things I gave her.

This may sound crazy but I have a protocol for her to follow on what to do in case of a:

1. Major Thunderstorm/Hurricane/Supercell (Tornado risk)
2. If she sees a spider do not attempt to kill it with your hand, take a photo and send it to me first, or come get me.
3. She sees a snake
4. If someone rings the doorbell
5. If she gets a call from someone about a death (mine or anyone else in my family)
6. If police come to the house
7. If she is approached by police
8. How to make sure she does not push or cut in line at stores and how to handle it if she does on accident.
9. If friends or family ask her a question
10. How to be polite "Westerner Style" if speaking with someone on the phone for a product or service request.

This may seem silly to you, but if I had left her alone to figure this stuff out, she might be dead right now or gotten into a fight. Chinese do crazy shit to save face, but it comes off as lying or hiding to non-Asian people. The difference is that the consequences of your answers in the US are totally different in China. That is the part they must learn. Furthermore, things that are deal breakers for you, relationship wise, must be addressed at the beginning of the relationship.

I have done all kinds of unorthodox stuff when dating Chinese women.

1. Show them pics of a hotter exgirlfriends I dumped because she lied to me.
2. Play reverse psychology by demanding that they do not cause ME to lose face. Or demand that they give you face. (As if I am a Chinese Man)
3. Physically and gently move their hands or body in a certain direction (a subtle show of force)
4. Tell them right off the bat that I do not give second chances to women that "cheat me". (Not just sexually cheat, They understand that as stealing, hiding, or lying when translated either way)
5. Discuss all of my other girlfriends with them. (Can backfire, gotta be careful doing it. It's advanced game and an artform)
6. Insist that they listen to their parents or constantly side with their parents. (Would chase an American girl away, but does the opposite to a Chinese girl)

All this works. Some waaay better than others. Another quick example is that Chinese people do not wear seatbelts in cars. My wife has a scar on her back from a car accident and was not wearing a seatbelt. Chinese people even disable the seatbelt killswitch in expensive luxury cars and pay money to do it. That's how fucking crazy they are.

In China I fought with my then girlfriend, now wife over wearing a seatbelt so much that she gave up and started doing it. Her parents later noticed that she was doing that and told her, "HA! He is teaching you good habits?! You best listen to him, he is right!" Good inlaws will help you keep her in line in ways, you will never be able to do. Reinforcement is a good play. I did not know that doing that was going to help me so much back then, but once I learned how to do it, I have been indirectly allowing my inlaws to keep her ass in check. I do not have to do this often, my wife is awesome, but on a very rare occasion they can be used very easily, all because I know the culture so well and just need to send a QQ message to them or trick her into asking them something a certain way.

Never be afraid to demand face from any Asian woman. Westerners struggle in ways that are unnecessary with Asian girls. If they giggle or laugh and say, "what do you know about that?" or "What do you mean?". Get straight with them. Say, "You heard me." "You are going to cause me to lose face and I won't tolerate/like it." "I want you to do xxxxx, as soon as possible and do not cheat me, or I will be very dissapointed in you." If you have known her for 3 days or 3 years, it will work all the same. It will force her to decide quickly and will shock her to her core. Her pussy will get wetter than it has ever gotten before and she will tackle you the next night in the bed if you guys are already physical. This is Advanced Alpha Asian Guy Game. It is semi-heavy asshole game mixed with Chinese/Asian culture. It would work with Koreans and sometimes even Asian American girls. I have field tested that in the US and got mixed results. One Chinese chick brought me some ice cream and made me a dinner plate after messing with her like that the next time I saw her. When I offered to get my own plate, she told me "No, I will get it for you I want you to sit down." Two meetings prior to that she told me she would never give me her phone number.

What else can I say?

[Beyond Borders]

^ Solid, informative post based on actual long-term experiences. This is the type of thing I was hoping for.

Can you give an example of how you would phrase it when "demanding someone give you face?"

[Menace]

All this stuff is so incredibly interesting to me. Thanks so much for posting this Traveler, and for starting this topic BB. I gotta try some of this on the FOB's I know.

[TravelerKai]

(08-20-2014 10:49 AM)Menace Wrote:  

All this stuff is so incredibly interesting to me. Thanks so much for posting this Traveler, and for starting this topic BB. I gotta try some of this on the FOB's I know.

Oooh yeah! That's an excellent group you can practice on. If you screw it up sometimes, no big deal. That's just the firing range. When you go to Asia, that game is more fine tuned because they are less likely to be rich or stuckup. It still works on rich Asian girls too. That one that brought me that food was very rich with a masters degree that likes to fly to Italy all the time. I accused her of causing me and my friend to lose face because she showed up late to an event and then told us she needed to leave early, although we bought a ticket for her and told others she would be there. My friends thought I was being too hard on her and she went quiet for a few weeks. After that she was a completely different person towards me. She wanted to go out sometime and she even wanted to go pick out a puppy with me. Since she was a high 6ish maybe 7 if she wore a dress and I had a mini-harem inside China at the time, I blew her off and let another mutual acquaintance handcuff her. Now they are getting married. He should thank me for getting her off the carosel, but that is another story for another day.

[berserk]

Once again a great discussion guys and it really could only happen on this forum.

[Sargon of Akkad]

(08-20-2014 02:14 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

I do find that the Japanese I've met are much more on the level when it comes to conversation than citizens of other Asian countries. They also seem far more upfront, open-minded, and intellectually curious (the ones who travel, anyhow).

This is actually the exact opposite of the bulk of people I know here in Japan. Though there are many good things to be said about the Japanese, they are easily one of the most ignorant (first world) populations I've ever encountered. They tend to put on a strong air of worldliness and sophistication, but by and large so many seem to know and care absolutely nothing about what goes on outside their boarders. I still find myself floored sometimes by how ignorant some people can be, most notably a girl I spoke to who thought Islam came from Australia (when I said no she said "uh...America?"...Europe?" -- "Asia" I reply, to which she says "Korea?". There was another guy who thought Christianity and the English language came from America and that the North Pole was a continent. When I asked a student of mine how they could not know this they shrug and answer "Notto impohtanto hoa ribingu in Japahn."

As for the Japanese being more upfront than other Asians: when talking about the Japanese with non-Japanese Asians living here, I've noticed almost all will say the Japanese are too indirect for them. Bizarrely enough, many Chinese and Koreans will tell me something along the lines of how the Japanese never tell you their feelings, and (paraphrasing) "We Chinese/Koreans always say exactly what we think." Recently, I was talking to a Chinese girl who went on a bit of a tirade on how the Japanese can be so full of shit.

Not to derail the thread, but these are just two things I've noticed frequently.

[TravelerKai]

(08-20-2014 12:33 PM)Sargon of Akkad Wrote:  

(08-20-2014 02:14 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

I do find that the Japanese I've met are much more on the level when it comes to conversation than citizens of other Asian countries. They also seem far more upfront, open-minded, and intellectually curious (the ones who travel, anyhow).

This is actually the exact opposite of the bulk of people I know here in Japan. Though there are many good things to be said about the Japanese, they are easily one of the most ignorant (first world) populations I've ever encountered. They tend to put on a strong air of worldliness and sophistication, but by and large so many seem to know and care absolutely nothing about what goes on outside their boarders. I still find myself floored sometimes by how ignorant some people can be, most notably a girl I spoke to who thought Islam came from Australia (when I said no she said "uh...America?"...Europe?" -- "Asia" I reply, to which she says "Korea?". There was another guy who thought Christianity and the English language came from America and that the North Pole was a continent. When I asked a student of mine how they could not know this they shrug and answer "Notto impohtanto hoa ribingu in Japahn."

As for the Japanese being more upfront than other Asians: when talking about the Japanese with non-Japanese Asians living here, I've noticed almost all will say the Japanese are too indirect for them. Bizarrely enough, many Chinese and Koreans will tell me something along the lines of how the Japanese never tell you their feelings, and (paraphrasing) "We Chinese/Koreans always say exactly what we think." Recently, I was talking to a Chinese girl who went on a bit of a tirade on how the Japanese can be so full of shit.

Not to derail the thread, but these are just two things I've noticed frequently.

And funny thing is that she might do the same shit sometimes as well. That is why I liked how BB started this thread about it being "Asian" and not just one country's group of Asians. They all do this shit because their cultures are so similar. Chinese girls or guys do not tell you how they really feel, unless you piss them off or they really love you alot.

Until then, you will be guessing just like with Japanese people. I had a Japanese student learning martial arts from me. I would ask him about the class and if he liked it or not and give me some feedback on it. I did this the first two classes he took from me. He would just grunt or slightly bow his head.

I stopped asking him about it. I realized that him showing up early and staying late to clean the mats was proof that he loved my class. Actions always speak louder than fancy words in Asia. Showing people through actions, giving and taking face, all these things eventually start making sense in a strange way.

[Sargon of Akkad]

^^I still feel that the Japanese are indirect even for Asian standards. Another reason the Chinese and Koreans you find in Japan will describe themselves as oh-so upfront and direct and honest is that in these cases Japan and China are the only two countries they've ever been to, so their point of reference is very different from ours. Chinese who live or have lived in the west will describe themselves as super indirect, while Chinese who live in Japan will describe themselves as open books.

Even with the common face-saving culture, I still feel that the Chinese as a whole are a far more blunt people than the Japanese. The latter will constantly sugarcoat their speech with fake niceties and etiquette, while the former makes almost no such effort. There is far more avoidance of confrontation in Japan than in China, as well.

[TravelerKai]

(08-20-2014 10:46 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

^ Solid, informative post based on actual long-term experiences. This is the type of thing I was hoping for.

Can you give an example of how you would phrase it when "demanding someone give you face?"

Sorry I missed this part.

OK a recent example:

I give this example out often. My wife (fiancee) at the time was helping me to prepare a trip to China to spend Chinese New Year with her whole family. I am talking about distant cousins, all kinds of people I had not met yet. I asked her what should I bring for hong bao. (red envelopes filled with money) This is Chinese tradition. I learned about this in college from Mainland Chinese teachers who made it a point to teach us the rules of how it works.

My wife told me, "Don't worry about hong bao. They will give us one." I said, "That's not how it works! You are a grown up now! You are not a kid anymore, that would be rude!" She and I go back and forth on this. Then I told her "Don't you dare cause me to lose face in front of your grandfathers and family." "Go ask your mother right now." She said yes dear and went on without talking back. Then her mom all but wanted to beat her. She told her the same thing I said. Your husband is right! What is wrong with you!?, etc... blah blah. But she also brought up something I did not know, she said that the hong bao we give will be given back at our wedding and then some. Which indeed happened. I gave out 2,000 in hongbao at mom in law's advice, and we got back 4,500 or so in (profit) the rest covered expenses.

Now that we have a newborn and yesterday she talked about if the baby will be old enough to go back to China for Chinese New Year. I brought up hong bao again. She said the baby is too little and they would give us one. Tsk Tsk.... Still haven't learned yet?! I will deal with that later.

I posted that other incident with that other Chinese girl causing me to lose face in our social circle and it made her feel guilty and come back to me totally different.

Another one would be when I told another girl from Hunan that was just another gal on my team at the time, "Don't you dare cause me to lose face!" I had asked her to help a friend of mine buy some products from some friend of hers that works for some electronic parts company in Shenzhen I think it was. The reason why is because I know from my history with her that something I bought through her did not work out because the guy cheated us both out of my money. Was a small amount but that's not the point. She is gullible. She then got smart with me and asked me what I know about saving face. I told her, enough to know to come after her. She was pissed off for a couple days, but later we got alot closer. Later on she and I had a fight over my "big titted girlfriend" she saw on my qzone (now my wife) and some other smoking hot 9 22 year old that lives near her. She accused me of causing her to lose face with her friends or whatever. I told her fuck that, "You caused me to lose face because when I asked you to meet me in Changsha, you said you would not be there, and when I asked you where you were going you did not answer." (A fucking lie, she was being flaky and silly, and probably LMR about her fear of losing her virginity or something)

I was in a taxi cab in Changsha with another girl and she and I are arguing about it over the phone and she then begged me to come to her apartment and she and I can talk about everything. I hung up on her and said Fuck that. I am mean. I don't play games with women like that. All my girls know I have others. They are not worried about controlling me. I went back to the US and she hit me up again and asked me if I was still angry at her and wanted to try again, she was probably crying but I didn't care. I blocked her account and haven't spoken with her since, and I knew her for like 3 years prior to that kinda like as a friend. Me dogging her out around others or using her as "my main girlfriend" gave me huge amounts of face and prevalidation game points with others. Some of you may say, dude why skip that bang bro? The thing is me and her fight too much, just naturally over any little thing....I don't like that. It reminds me of my exwife. I actually notice my blood pressure rising when I get that angry and I do not like that feeling anymore. Plenty quality women around, no need for all that. For the record, my wife has never made me anywhere near that angry before.

I even once told my best friend's wife (both are Chinese), not to cause my boy to lose face over something. She did not like me or trust me before when I met her. Nowadays she always hugging on me and loves me to death all because she thinks I am sooooo Chinese. Whatever. That's my main man I keep my eyes on her at all times for silliness. He is redpill and we both keep the ladies in check and watch each other's back. I have given him 2 hot wife quality girlfriends before in the past and thought nothing of it. Bros before hoes forever. I'm sure she and my wife realize that. We tell all the stories in their presence. And give zero fucks what they think.

[Vacancier Permanent]

Fantastic thread! Thanks for starting it BB!
I'm very curious about this issue and was about to start a thread on it so I'm glad that BB went ahead and started this gold filled thread and for dropping some serious golden intel!

Kai,
Always a pleasure reading your massive insight on China and Chinese women/dating Chinese girls bro! You could and really should start a podcast on dating in China and understating the dynamics of dating and relationships with Chinese women. Absolutely fascinating topic! It would be massively popular and successful!

I'd be very curious to hear a similar breakdown to What BB and Kai masterfully did but on Vietnamese and Pinay women dating. I will post later when I get home an example of shit test higher end Pinay girls may do at times that would drive you crazy.

[TravelerKai]

You can also ask for some face in the form or a favor. Like, "I have some friends coming over, can you give me some face and let us hang out at your apartment?" Asking for face does not always have to involve conflict. You can use if casually and I highly recommend using it from time to time, to keep their memory fresh on how you roll. It makes them feel comfortable when you talk like that. A Swppl-like stuck up academia head, would scoff at you though. Just don't flinch and look serious when you say it. Don't smirk too deep or laugh. Sell it. Make it look real. Like you are drinking a glass of water. Then they will say OK, no problem. And be sure to return favors that give them face as well. If Asian guys or gals want you to come hang out with some new people or business people, show up and give them face. Even if it is boring or feels like a waste of time. I hate going to the KTV, but I will do it for my friends or partners and not cause them to lose face. Even if my wife tells me she thinks going there is silly, I tell her no, this is how you build bonds/relationships/guanxi in Asian or with Asians outside of Asia. Professional or personal. I am sure she silently agrees with me and feels closer anytime I do stuff like that. I know so from experience.

[TravelerKai]

(08-20-2014 03:27 PM)Vacancier Permanent Wrote:  

Fantastic thread! Thanks for starting it BB!
I'm very curious about this issue and was about to start a thread on it so I'm glad that BB went ahead and started this gold filled thread!

Kai,
Always a pleasure reading your massive insight on China and Chinese women/dating Chinese girls! You could and really start a podcast on dating in China and understating the dynamics of dating and relationships with Chinese women. Absolutely fascinating topic!

I'd be very curious to hear a similar breakdown to What BB and Kai masterfully did but on Vietnamese and Pinay women dating.il post later when I get home an example of shit test higher end Pinay girls may do at times that would drive you crazy.

Yes please start a thread or something VP, I got pulled for baby reasons that night when you were telling me about it.

[Vacancier Permanent]

Yeah I will post about it on this thread as it's very relevant to this topic and add an example of the dynamics you'd be going through when dealing with these Asian girls in Asia.

[El Chinito loco]

(08-20-2014 03:13 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

I gave out 2,000 in hongbao at mom in law's advice, and we got back 4,500 or so in (profit) the rest covered expenses.

The hongbao tradition is amusing because most of the time money just gets shuffled around and that's it. The big time face move is to always give and never receive though. It shows petty cash doesn't mean anything to you and it's a big generosity move that implies higher social position. I politely refuse hongbao and I always buy dinners for family and close Chinese friends.

Chinese people tend to notice who pays for the meal and who profits off of who even if they insist on always picking up the tab. It's a jew-like level of bean counting. They won't bring it up but they will often talk about it behind your back. Especially, if you do too many things to come out ahead (in a monetary sense) with family and friends. You really don't want them to think you are pulling slick moves or get a reputation for being "shao chi" (stingy.)

Btw, I don't do any of the above with SEA people (unless they are ethnic chinese) because they will shamelessly soak you.

[Bushido]

I also wanted to say thanks for this great info TK. Living in Japan, my impression was always that the Chinese are super straightforward and much friendlier and open than the Japanese, but this seems to not be the case at all! Good to know.

For the record, the Koreans that I work with are very similar to the Japanese in their communication style and tend to fit in around the Japanese almost straight away. Very indirect and vague. Korean girls are a different matter though. They seem to have a tendency towards being violent (slapping or punching their boyfriend is common behaviour) or just outright crazy. A friend of mine has dated lots of Koreans and said that a large number will bring up stories of being sexually abused by an older brother or cousin. Whether this is true or just drama generation, I have no idea. But I could believe it maybe, considering it is such a prude culture in general. Either way, the crazy factor seems to be strong among Korean women. This may or may not lead to better sex.

[Onto]

The more I learn here about the concept of face, the more I like it. It seems to be all about both respect and egotism and the delicate dance between the two.

Face seems to revolve around others perception of you (your face). Your responsibility is to what others, the world will think.

In the West morality is an individual thing where what other's think don't or shouldn't matter. Your responsibility is to yourself.

Which is true? Which is better?

Westerner's would naturally think individual morality is most important. It's certainly challenging and good to have a self-managed moral compass, but the dark side would be when we live by our own rules, without subscribing to a higher, universal law or moral that governs all mankind. We see this kind of anti-hero in western, modern day movies and TV all the time.

Then there's the attitude of being blunt and "open" and "honest" to the point where there is little regard for others feelings and when called on it, or a twinge of self-fault emerges, we press all the more saying, "Well, I'm just keeping it real". I see that a lot in western society.

I have never been to the East, nor have I ever had an LTR with an Asian, but TK's posts are outstanding, as are the posts here from the Westerner's point of view.

The eastern person's moral compass appears to be kept in line by what others, the world thinks. In some respect, this kind of thinking does subscribe to a higher law and morality that is outside of themselves. It doesn't mean Asians won't lie, cheat, and steal if given the opportunity. They are human just as much as their Western counterparts.

Yet since the Asian's moral compass isn't individual, they are less likely to say things like, "I don't care, I'll just do what I want", and if they do, all it seems to take is a gentle, or perhaps not so gentle, reminder about face and it will cause them to think what the others (the world, God) would think. Just one little well-timed word will do all that. Kinda nice.

So, LTR's with Asians? I say full steam ahead, fvck the torpedoes.

[Beyond Borders]

(08-20-2014 03:13 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

"Don't you dare cause me to lose face in front of your grandfathers and family."

"Don't you dare cause me to lose face!"

"You caused me to lose face because when I asked you to meet me in Changsha, you said you would not be there, and when I asked you where you were going you did not answer."

Thanks for the examples, but are you speaking to these women in their native language?

I think my main hang-up with asking how to be upfront about it is that most of the people I know or have dated would have no clue if I said something about losing face (in English).

I think since the concept isn't directly translatable to Western culture, only those with more fluent English would be able to talk about it without serious difficulty.

Maybe I better just learn to discuss the concept in their language - at least enough to get across what I'm talking about.

Obviously language barriers present a host of problems on their own, though, and if you're going the long run with someone, one of you better be fluent in the other's language.

(08-20-2014 07:22 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

Chinese people tend to notice who pays for the meal and who profits off of who even if they insist on always picking up the tab. It's a jew-like level of bean counting. They won't bring it up but they will often talk about it behind your back. Especially, if you do too many things to come out ahead (in a monetary sense) with family and friends. You really don't want them to think you are pulling slick moves or get a reputation for being "shao chi" (stingy.)

Btw, I don't do any of the above with SEA people (unless they are ethnic chinese) because they will shamelessly soak you.

Not necessarily.

I know plenty of people in SEA who are really good about it. Some won't let you pay no matter how hard you try, and plenty other friends (and girlfriends) have been good about going back and forth, or at least covering the smaller meals and letting me cover the bigger (which makes sense, culturally, if their income is less than mine).

While I understand your desire for caution, you may be alienating yourself in SEA with that attitude.

The risk is most certainly there, but it doesn't take long to sort out who is along for a free ride and who means well. Many will even take on more than their share more often (if not always) because they're so aware of what their fellow countrymen do and don't want to be associated with that type of behavior.

(08-20-2014 10:27 PM)Onto Wrote:  

The more I learn here about the concept of face, the more I like it. It seems to be all about both respect and egotism and the delicate dance between the two.

Face seems to revolve around others perception of you (your face). Your responsibility is to what others, the world will think.

In the West morality is an individual thing where what other's think don't or shouldn't matter. Your responsibility is to yourself.

Which is true? Which is better?

Westerner's would naturally think individual morality is most important. It's certainly challenging and good to have a self-managed moral compass, but the dark side would be when we live by our own rules, without subscribing to a higher, universal law or moral that governs all mankind. We see this kind of anti-hero in western, modern day movies and TV all the time.

Then there's the attitude of being blunt and "open" and "honest" to the point where there is little regard for others feelings and when called on it, or a twinge of self-fault emerges, we press all the more saying, "Well, I'm just keeping it real". I see that a lot in western society.

I have never been to the East, nor have I ever had an LTR with an Asian, but TK's posts are outstanding, as are the posts here from the Westerner's point of view.

The eastern person's moral compass appears to be kept in line by what others, the world thinks. In some respect, this kind of thinking does subscribe to a higher law and morality that is outside of themselves. It doesn't mean Asians won't lie, cheat, and steal if given the opportunity. They are human just as much as their Western counterparts.

Yet since the Asian's moral compass isn't individual, they are less likely to say things like, "I don't care, I'll just do what I want", and if they do, all it seems to take is a gentle, or perhaps not so gentle, reminder about face and it will cause them to think what the others (the world, God) would think. Just one little well-timed word will do all that. Kinda nice.

So, LTR's with Asians? I say full steam ahead, fvck the torpedoes.

Thanks for this post. You helped me see it in a bit more positive light.

Cultural differences wear you down from time to time, and it's always good to glimpse the other perspective again.

[Global Entry]

(08-19-2014 12:46 PM)Onto Wrote:  

I wonder what would happen if you mirrored her behavior. Would she call you out on your lie? Would she get upset about it?

If she did, then it would be a good opportunity to discuss it. You could say casually, "Oh, I'm sorry, I thought it was ok to lie because last week you lied when you said such and such, so I just thought it's ok not to be truthful."

Then see what she has to say to that.

However, if she would never call you out on lying because of a cultural adversion to doing so, you would have to find another way to deal with it.

Actually, in my experience, that's exactly what is going on in most Asian relationships. I think you can take refuge in the fact that while the lying goes on, if its not directed negatively towards you, but simply to protect their own image for you, then its not really something I find hard to take. And of course, white girls lie about shit like their cock-count and other similar things as well. If she's scheming (I haven't encountered this in China, but I date good girls in China), thats a whole other can of corn.

(08-19-2014 08:17 PM)dreambig Wrote:  

(08-19-2014 12:59 PM)Old Fritz Wrote:  

One in particular we talked for a few hours. Infidelity of course was a topic and she told me she didn't care if I cheated as along as I kept it hidden from her. When she said this, i thought she was only saying it because she wanted to cheat to and she denied that saying she just didn't want to feel shameful about it. I probed more and she admitted to believing that all people cheat anyway and didn't believe I would not do it myself. There was more said but you get the idea. I was still skeptical anyway.

I've been told this on many occasions by Japanese girls. In my experience, this line tends to come from the more traditional Japanese girls (my favourite type). It has nothing to do with their cheating, although I had the same reaction as you initially. This attitude comes from an understanding of men's nature that we need to sleep around from time to time. This awareness used to be common in the West too. The key lies in not getting caught in the act and keeping up appearances.

If you marry a Japanese woman, the cultural expectation is that sex will greatly decline after the kids come along before stopping completely. She becomes the Mother and you the Father (this is literally how they address each other and first names are dropped). You are no longer viewed as lovers. This is a little depressing but it's a very common view in Japan, so be careful if you marry one or you'll be in for a shock!

The reason a Japanese girl gives you permission to cheat in advance is that she knows that the day will come when the marriage will become sexless. Often, it's a case of the guy looking for younger girls to bang rather than the wife not putting out, but I suppose it's probably a combination of the two. Instead of divorce, she prefers that you have a mistress or go to hookers. Of course, she will feel some jealousy inside but a good wife will keep this hidden.

So the point I'm making is this situation is understood by both parties in the marriage - it's just unspoken. Sure, there might be some lies told but that is done to save face and continue things the way they are. These are not "black" lies, but "white" ones for the most part.

That said, there are the more westernized Japanese girls who are jealous as fuck and will demand to know every detail of your life. They demand 50:50 and open and honest communication about everything. All the normal tact is dropped and they are possessive as they come. These girls are a huge pain in the ass. Give me an indirect, non-confrontational and traditional Japanese girl any day of the week.

Chinese are mostly this way too, and view marriage in much the similar way. They don't complain, the woman, but don't make them know about it (unless your a boss, and they can get away with anything). She'll be a mother first, a daughter second, a dutiful wife third, and then maybe, a sex partner. This is for more traditional women.

(08-20-2014 07:22 PM)El Chinito loco Wrote:  

(08-20-2014 03:13 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

I gave out 2,000 in hongbao at mom in law's advice, and we got back 4,500 or so in (profit) the rest covered expenses.

It's a jew-like level of bean counting.

Really dude you're gonna go there?