[RichieP]

Mind = blown after Tkai's post. That EXACTLY explains much of a girls' responses and actions around an issue we had.

The more I tried to speak directly, honestly, openly, the more it just made her more sullen and withdrawn, and acting almost as if I was embarrassing her by even talking about it to her (in private!).

The few times I just stopped verbalizing the issue and just took the lead with as little verbalization as possible, the more she started behaving better and doing things to please me.

To me it felt like brushing something unresolved under the rug, where my instinct was to hammer it out verbally, but that just didn't get us anywhere.

So true about them never stating their intentions but rather doing things to show allegiance.

Do not underestimate this cultural gap(chasm!) guys. It's really quite a difference.

[Bushido]

Artiste, can you be more specific about what you mean by "East Asian"? Japanese women couldn't be further removed from the Chinese. The cultures are more or less opposite in every significant way.

[WalterBlack]

(06-14-2016 12:52 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

The fact that they do it without backtalk is all you need. Most show the appreciation in the sack. Not outside it. Service with a smile is fake to them. We are just brainwashed into thinking that is normal here. I don't think it is at least, but that is debateable.

A common red pill mentality is watch what a woman does, not what she says. This kind of ties in with that.

(06-15-2016 12:56 AM)Bushido Wrote:  

Artiste, can you be more specific about what you mean by "East Asian"? Japanese women couldn't be further removed from the Chinese. The cultures are more or less opposite in every significant way.

I get pissed off when I hear somebody say "this is an Asian thing", when it's usually just a Chinese (or Korean or Japanese) thing. Even Chinese FOBs in the US and Chinese-Americans are guilty of this.

People should realise how different the cultures are. Chinese/Japanese/Koreans are very different people....even within China there's a lot of differences between people from different areas.

[Geomann180]

Still love this thread.

G

[TravelerKai]

(06-15-2016 12:56 AM)Bushido Wrote:  

Artiste, can you be more specific about what you mean by "East Asian"? Japanese women couldn't be further removed from the Chinese. The cultures are more or less opposite in every significant way.

I would not say that at all! They are different in lots of ways. In every way? Naw brother. No way. We could debate that the Japanese use face more than Chinese people do! Their face stuff is more sophisticated than the way the Chinese do it as well.

Face is Asian period. Some Europeans do it, some Russians, and other assorted groups. Asians have a stranglehold monopoly on it.

[Artiste]

(06-14-2016 12:52 PM)TravelerKai Wrote:  

...

That was a thought-provoking post! I will think on it for a while.

At times my active mind can tend towards over-thinking or over-expression when I'm under the weather (tired/sick/stressed), so thanks for the reminder. Anyhow, some additional tips for the readership follow:

(1) Learn about her culture

This is especially important if you have not spent much if any time in your girl's country and if you have not had past experience with girls from that country. Reading culture-relationship books, making native friends both male and female, and observing the behaviours of others can all be helpful, though the best way to fast-track your knowledge and behavioural habits is to spend some time in the country itself. Through improved learning and practice, you will begin to understand, adapt, and naturally display a number of unspoken rules such as minimizing courting-stage PDA (Public Displays of Affection) without having to learn the hard way.

(2) As a Man, you must be the Rock

Unless the said behaviour is extreme or ongoing, the best option is to let it slide in many cases. Sometimes giving energy or 'feeding' a behaviour can make it seem more significant that it should be, rather than overcoming it. This over-sensitivity can backfire by making you seem overly reactive and thus weak (TK noted a similar theme in his previous post, point 2A). I believe that women have a biological imperative to test for psychological strength on an ongoing basis, and her longer-term vision of a man who is congruent across time and context - a man who is not easily swayed by her emotions - is key for success in long-term relationships.

(3) Consider Timing and Context

For instance, a great time to have such an intimate, brief chat is after the lay.

To illustrate points 2 and 3, this is what happened today: I picked up my "Asian" Girlfriend who recently had something on her mind and it was affecting her mood and our interactions. We had fun for an hour before banging and then, in sum, I explained that I value her and opening up our communication channels, she said she would tell me about anything important and noted that some things are best left unsaid. Despite her unusual behaviour, I sensed that I had been overly sensitive and did not press further. She asked about my values and I explained that I expect respect and loyalty, and I don't offer second chances. Then I banged her again. Following this, she washed my clothes, cooked and cleaned for me. Things seem back to normal now =)

Curious...

(06-15-2016 12:56 AM)Bushido Wrote:  

Artiste, can you be more specific about what you mean by "East Asian"? Japanese women couldn't be further removed from the Chinese. The cultures are more or less opposite in every significant way.

When you say "The cultures are more or less opposite in every significant way" could you explain what these significant ways are, and how they relate to my post?

In this case, my main area of interest is women from North East Asia (primarily China, Taiwan, Korea and Japan). Hong Kong and Mongolia should also be included in that definition to be accurate, and then South East Asia would include Vietnam, Philippines, Thailand, Laos, Malaysia, Indonesia, etc.

I'm sure you have a lot to offer regarding relationships with Japanese and other women so I am a bit confused by your post. On that note, see below.

(06-15-2016 02:00 AM)WalterBlack Wrote:  

I get pissed off when I hear somebody say "this is an Asian thing", when it's usually just a Chinese (or Korean or Japanese) thing. Even Chinese FOBs in the US and Chinese-Americans are guilty of this. People should realise how different the cultures are. Chinese/Japanese/Koreans are very different people....even within China there's a lot of differences between people from different areas.

What is such a "just a Chinese (or Korean or Japanese) thing" that you are referring to? When you note "Chinese/Japanese/Koreans are very different people", can you provide any examples that relate to the theme of this thread?

Re: Over-generalisations

My post is about responding to a set passive behaviours that I have observed in my relationships with Japanese, Koreans and Chinese women, each of which spanned several years. The rest of my experience is drawn from 100+ lays of Asian birds over more than a decade, and over a year total across more than 10 Asian countries. Whilst I do have much to learn - hence my questions for the readership - I am very much aware of not just the broad differences between these women but also their within-group differences (and, moreover, the importance of individual, dyadic and contextual factors in explaining any given relationship dynamic). For instance, through highlighting a comparison of living standards I addressed this issue in a previous thread about a guy who seemed to be applying Filipina "just-turn-up" game in Japan.

Indeed, there are many differences between Japanese and Chinese women. For instance, I've never seen a Japanese lady spit on the street or on the floor of a club, unlike some Chinese girls {*shudder*}. Closer to the themes of the thread, I have personally found that on average Chinese women are more harshly blunt than Japanese, and more oriented towards the maintenance of 'self-face' rather than group harmony. To note an empirical example, there is evidence that the Chinese use different facework behaviours -- i.e., communicative strategies used "to enact self-face and to uphold or challenge another person’s face to avoid confrontation" [ref 1].

All this nonetheless does not invalidate the well-documented common expression of indirect communication throughout East Asia. Moreover, the crux of my post is discussing certain characteristics of communication-based relationship problems that tend to be experienced more often with women from countries that value concepts such as 'face' and 'harmony,' and from cultures that can be characterized by a historical influence of Confucianism and 'high context' ("a style associated with nonverbal and implicit communication more typical of traditionally interdependent societies" [ref 2]. If you click the RvF links at the bottom of my previous post, in addition to scrolling through this thread, you can see that the problem of passive aggression, indirect communication and the maintenance of 'face' has been a common theme in relationships with Filipino, Chinese, Japanese, and other East Asian women. I've also included some links below that discuss 'face' in Japan and China, and it appears that much of this advice could be interchangeable [refs 3/4].

Whilst handling the 'meaning beneath the words' is an issue relevant when dealing with the most aggressive of passive-aggressive females [ref 5], its unclear to me why asking for suggestions from fellow men who have experience with East Asian women is questionable, or how my stated experience with Japanese/Korean/Chinese women represents an overly broad stroke of assumptions? Perhaps I am misreading your post? Personally I don't see the benefit for the readership from vague assertions about the problems of supposed over-generalisations without including a specific context or counter-examples. I think a more helpful approach would be to explain, through your own experience and theories, why and how you should adapt different strategies with Japanese, Chinese or other women when it comes to handling 'what goes unsaid'.

A call of Encouragement

I would like to say that, whilst a post made in the context of some relationship history with Asian women is more relevant to my personal situation, I certainly do welcome contributions from any members who have faced similar situations worldwide [ref 5].

In consideration of the undeniably strong interest in foreign women at RvF, tips and mindsets to shorten cultural and communicative barriers will long be of interest here, especially for those looking beyond the fleeting lays, and towards more ongoing connections, even patriarchal dynasties.

As always constructive feedback is welcome.

References

1. Face and facework in conflict: A cross-cultural comparison of China, Germany, Japan, and the United States [pdf]

2. Book Review, of 'Negotiating Across Cultures. Communications Obstacles in International Diplomacy'

3. Gaining and Losing Face in China

4. Saving Face: A Little Discretion Can Go A Long Way In Japan

5. (Can you feel the snark...)



Edit: grammar

[RichieP]

There are differences between Japanese/Chinese/Korean cultures, but these differences are relatively small compared to the differences between asians and western cultures.

Alot of the stuff Tkai wrote regarding Chinese face and relationships broadly applies to Japanese / Korean also - but to different degrees, and with different particulars. The cultures aren't worlds apart in the same way asian and western cultures are.

Very broadly...

Asian = face, shame-based, social harmony, collectivism. The Confucian values.

Western = guilt-based, direct/confrontational, individualistic.

Of course there are notable differences. Koreans girls for example dont do the "grumpy servitude" thing that Chinese girls do, they're expected to smile a lot more. And Japanese are even more indirect and less confrontational than both Chinese/Korean.

But still... face, harmony, collectivism. Roughly the same norms.

[Bushido]

The wild generalisations are getting out of control around here, especially coming from guys who haven't even lived in Japan. I spent almost 7 years in Japan. I've been dating Japanese girls for around 12 years now.

It's a cliche, but Japan is a unique place. The more time I spend in the rest of Asia, the more I see how weird the Japanese are. Guilt, shame and face all interact in subtle ways that make an LTR with a J-girl especially challenging for westerners.

Sargon of Akkad's Osaka thread is a great example of the cultural gap. He reported regularly dating Chinese girls back in Germany, but then "not vibing" with Japanese girls on arrival in Osaka. It took him a long while to get to grips with Japan.
thread-21902.html

Sure, "East Asian" is a convenient shorthand that I'm sometimes guilty of using myself when comparing the wider region to SEA. There are some very broad similarities and historical links between the countries, but that's as far as it goes. The similarities are shallow and superficial at best. The context of each individual country is FAR more important when talking about the girls of said country.

To summarize:

Japan vs Korea = Different worlds
Japan vs China = Different universes

Artiste, I'm asking you again. Where is your LTR from? I understand if you want to keep it private, but her nationality is highly relevant information here.

[RawGod]

I feel an weird synergy with the Japanese mentality - my family was very indirect in communication, in the British style. At least, the old-fashioned middle-class British style.

Want to be left alone>>Give a polite smile but no eye contact.
Don't like something>>"Oh, how interesting!"
Who are you and what the fuck are you doing here?>>"Can I help you?"
Guy is a pedo?>>"He was always...rather odd."

I fit right in in Japan and never had a hard time "getting" them. Like me, they're uptight, high-IQ introverts who communicate via understatement, and if you're on another wavelength and blunder in disregarding all of that, you will be quickly and quietly dropped.

One more thing, the term "face" is not applicable in Japan. It's not like SEA where individuals will create elaborate lies which you must outwardly accept in order to save their "face". As has been said, Japanese are about visible group cohesion, and sometimes this is maintained by public shaming and the individual must suck it up.

[Artiste]

(06-17-2016 05:21 AM)Bushido Wrote:  

Artiste, I'm asking you again. Where is your LTR from? I understand if you want to keep it private, but her nationality is highly relevant information here.

I can't see where you specifically asked me this, nonetheless I answered you via PM.

(06-17-2016 05:21 AM)Bushido Wrote:  

Sargon of Akkad's Osaka thread is a great example of the cultural gap. He reported regularly dating Chinese girls back in Germany, but then "not vibing" with Japanese girls on arrival in Osaka. It took him a long while to get to grips with Japan.
thread-21902.html

This highlights a good example of cultural shock in Japan, however it seems to be oriented toward meeting and banging new girls, rather than on the topic of serious relationships.

(06-17-2016 05:21 AM)Bushido Wrote:  

...The similarities are shallow and superficial at best. The context of each individual country is FAR more important when talking about the girls of said country.

I have acknowledged a number of differences between C- and J-girls, some of which are relevant to the thread:

(06-15-2016 08:53 AM)Artiste Wrote:  

...I have personally found that on average Chinese women are more harshly blunt than Japanese, and more oriented towards the maintenance of 'self-face' rather than group harmony. To note an empirical example, there is evidence that the Chinese use different facework behaviours -- i.e., communicative strategies used "to enact self-face and to uphold or challenge another person’s face to avoid confrontation" [ref 1].

I'll include another quote from the first reference below (the italicized emphasis is mine).

Oetzel, John, et al. Wrote:

The third hypothesis proposed specific differences within the collectivistic cultures.

Chinese were found to have more self-face and involve a third party more than Japanese. Interestingly, Chinese also had a higher self-face concern than U.S. Americans. An explanation for this particular finding is that face is a strong concern in Chinese society and imbedded in everyday discourse (Gao, 1998; Gao & Ting-Toomey, 1998). It is probable that Chinese are highly concerned with self- and other-face. The concern for mianzi is strong in Chinese society and strong mianzi for the self also benefits the group. Additionally, Chinese may expect the other party to
uphold their mianzi.

Four other differences between Japan and China were discovered.

Japanese used pretend, give in, and remain calm more and defend less than Chinese. Chinese and Japanese both have norms of maintaining harmony, upholding other-and mutual-face, and avoiding confrontation (Gao & Ting-Toomey, 1998;Gudykunst & Nishida, 1994) but the manner in which these two cultures avoid confrontation and uphold other-face is different. Additionally, the findings indicate that Chinese can become direct and confrontive under certain conditions.

(06-17-2016 05:21 AM)Bushido Wrote:  

I spent almost 7 years in Japan. I've been dating Japanese girls for around 12 years now.

Seven years is a long long time to spend there so I thus consider you to be in the top 99.9% of guys with knowledge about Japanese women. Indeed that is around 6.8 more years than me! Therefore I am sure that I can learn a lot from you.

(06-17-2016 05:21 AM)Bushido Wrote:  

It's a cliche, but Japan is a unique place. The more time I spend in the rest of Asia, the more I see how weird the Japanese are. Guilt, shame and face all interact in subtle ways that make an LTR with a J-girl especially challenging for westerners.

Ok, this is getting closer to the topic on hand.

I'm still curious as to how you have applied your general statement of Japanese uniqueness to the specific problem of handling silence, passive-aggression or avoidance of expression in the context of a long-term serious relationship with Japanese women? And further, how have you applied or how would you apply different principles and tactics with Chinese / Korean women?

Thanks for reading.

edit: formatting

[Satoshi]

(06-16-2016 04:51 AM)RichieP Wrote:  

There are differences between Japanese/Chinese/Korean cultures, but these differences are relatively small compared to the differences between asians and western cultures.

I've found a lot of similarities between Swedish and Japanese culture, Bushido wrote "guilt, shame and face all interact in subtle ways" and that could be said about Swedish culture as well, especially if looking at the law of jante in Scandinavian culture, which roosh wrote a bit about in bang Denmark. I even found an essay which points out several other similarities.

http://www.angelfire.com/hi/HambergHawaii/swejap.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Jante


I've never been to either Russia or China, but from the Chinese and Russian people I've got a similar feeling, same thing with Vietnamese people. And I didn't like that feeling. In Japan I felt almost like I was home in Sweden.

[Satoshi]

To take it further, how about the similarities between Indonesian and Arab culture? Filipino and American culture?

[El Chinito loco]

(06-17-2016 04:43 PM)Satoshi Wrote:  

To take it further, how about the similarities between Indonesian and Arab culture? Filipino and American culture?

Very little similarities between Indonesians and Arabs. Indonesians are majority muslim but with distinct SEA malay characteristics. They don't adhere strictly to arab muslim cultural traditions although they adopt a lot of the superficial aspects of it. They can be very fundamentalist as well but in their own way. Nothing about their language, daily culture, hierarchy etc.. is culturally arab. It all has malay or australasian origins.

Filipino and American similarities are very overstated as well. To me filipinos behave entirely like other southeast asians for the most part but with more catholic guilt. Even the traditional filipino food is very much SEA even with the spanish influence which is not that significant. Most of the cultural aspects are very SEA. Filipinos are more into western pop culture and english as a second language but the deeper western aspects and ideology is not there. When you dig deep into the personalities of the average Filipino they are southeast asian through and through.

[RichieP]

I can see the similarities between Japanese/Swedish/Brit and also Chi/Viet/Russian, in terms of their surface-level social energies and superficial norms. The understatement/indirectness in the former, the blunt brashness in the latter.

However having dated japanese, korean, chinese and westerners... I felt there was a very distinct and obvious gulf between "east asian" and "western" fundamental norms, when it comes to relationships. It comes back to those deep cultural values that have fermented for thousands of years on different sides of the globe.

I would also say there's not much deep similarity between Indo/Arab and Filipino/American. The similarities are surface level. Borrowed words, fashion trends, etc. The "same" religions are practised entirely differently.

[MRG1946]

.
[bump: 2017-09-13]

With more and more Western men arriving in Asia, this topic seems worth a bump.

(08-19-2014 10:56 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

Please note that this is about women from native Asian cultures rather than Asians as an ethnicity.

But, wait! The source of the problem actually is Asian. In my 10+ years living in Thailand, the locals here all lie, about almost everything. Even when there’s no benefit to lying, they lie. No exceptions that I’ve found so far among Thais.

And emphatically not just the women. The men, here, too, and they boast about it.

Where I live, in Bangkok, also large numbers of Chinese-Thai and Indian-Thai. Families here for generations. They all lie, just in different ways. To reduce the effect of the constant lies, it's worth understanding those different ways.

So I wish the title was something like, “Culture Shock Asia: The Lying”. It would more accurately explain the reality.

Exceptions to the lying might be found among the few Christian converts in the local population. But so few as to be hardly worth considering.

The big question in my mind is, why? How does endless lying benefit them individually and socially? (I think I have the answer to that, but I need to read deeper into the thread: Perhaps someone else here has already explained the reason.)
.