[Deluge]

A couple French exchange girls I met roped me into a free salsa lesson at university last year. I ended up sticking with it for a semester. It was good fun in general.

Game wise: The ratio was even, the girls were cute and the guys were really really lame. The instructor however was a jacked, good looking Asian guy with tight game, all the girls in class were creaming their pants over him. He clearly has his niche game downpat. I had 3 girls in the class who seemed keen on me, but I made the mistake of splitting my time between them during and after class instead of developing a solid connection with just 1, keep that in mind for yours.

[Green-On-GO]

I tried Salsa a couple of years ago...only because I wanted to learn and I thought I could pick up women there..Now I did get a few phone numbers but no bangs..I found all the girls wanted the hot male instructors, the hot female instructors had non dancing Alpha boyfriends..

The big positive though was how Salsa worked on non salsa dancing girls..And my dance skills are not that great ..I didn't do it for long enough.
My mates would take the piss, tell girls in normal clubs or bars I was a salsa dancer.The girls would then come up to me wanting me to throw them round...Also the male leads so you take control..all I did was basic step and a few turns...And yes I got bangs out of it even got one in Spain in an Irish pub last year.
My mate who is a fucking gun at it is of the same opinion.The salsa girls are there to compete with each other ,its murder on the dance floor..Chicks flirt with him cock tease him ,really fuck him up but they only wanted him for dancing while they fuck a football player in the carpark..He was going mad.
He got more bangs doing basic in a normal club than he ever got in Salsa clubs..he said fuck it and stopped competing and was drowned in pussy ,he now has a knock out Asian girlfriend.
Also the lessons where a sausagefest everytime I went..Never did I go to a class where the women outnumbered the men..This is my experience in my city..Its a good skill to have I reckon but better if you really want to dance.

[blacknwhitespade]

UPDATE:

I've gotten through the first 2 levels of basic salsa group classes and have taken 3 private lessons. I'm getting better!! And I'm having an amazing time!! The private lessons have especially helped me to clean up some bad habits, work on some of the nuances of leg and arm work and body posture, and get a much better understanding of the rhythm. My group instructor danced with me a few times and said she noticed the big improvements. I've been out to several clubs and studio socials and make a few new friends/contacts. The Latin dance scene is cool as hell. So many hot girls, and the guys are pretty badass, I met one guy last weekend who goes to Colombia every winter to get women, lol.

I haven't really pursued gaming/picking up any of the women yet, since I'm focusing more on the task while making new friends. I think you have to get quite good to really break into the studio and the Salsa scene, though, especially to get the girls. Another one of the guys I met at a dance social said to not be intimidated by the more advanced dancers and just persist. I'm learning that it takes guts and VERY quick action when you spot a girl to promptly hold out your hand and ask the woman to dance... before some other man grabs her!! I pulled one girl for a dance last weekend just as another man was grabbing her shoulder to also ask for a dance! lol

I'm weighing the value of continuing private Salsa lessons; they're pretty steep, but my instructor is really disciplining me and teaching me some stuff I couldn't pick up in a group setting. I'm considering also signing up for a basic Bachata class. Half the songs they play at these Latin dance clubs are bachata, so it would help if I could eventually become proficient in this style as well to get more dances and hence more social openings. Would it be too soon for me to start working on Bachata while I'm still grinding away at Salsa?? I've been getting out at least 1-2 nights a week to Salsa venues and practicing as often as I can at home.

[Dalaran1991]

Ok I'm finally cashing out on salsa game here. Been working on multiple salsa chicks here, all of them literally claw over me in dance class. I push the boundaries with one and she called and said she would not want to be my girlfriend (the fuck?) when I asked her out. Another girl disappear as soon as I suggest we go out.

This is fucked up. I run the same game on non-salsa girls and I get laid with less effort.

I admit that salsa is great for constructing your image and getting your confidence up. I have tons of pictures with girls doing sexual stuff and I use that for social media sometimes. When guys see how the girls are all over you they think your the MVP and you gain a lot of status. The girls in salsa are extremely attractive, if it's any consolation.

All of that is false positive. You are getting all that delusion without getting laid.

OP, if you want to continue taking lessons, consider this: do you REALLY enjoy dancing? Can you foresee this being a main hobby for you at the moment or near future. Otherwise what you already learn it's good enough for gaming purposes.

[JayJuanGee]

(11-09-2014 10:49 PM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  

UPDATE:

I've gotten through the first 2 levels of basic salsa group classes and have taken 3 private lessons. I'm getting better!! And I'm having an amazing time!! The private lessons have especially helped me to clean up some bad habits, work on some of the nuances of leg and arm work and body posture, and get a much better understanding of the rhythm. My group instructor danced with me a few times and said she noticed the big improvements. I've been out to several clubs and studio socials and make a few new friends/contacts. The Latin dance scene is cool as hell. So many hot girls, and the guys are pretty badass, I met one guy last weekend who goes to Colombia every winter to get women, lol.

Thanks for the update BlacknWhiteSpade. It sounds as if your progress is coming along fairly well, especially given the goals that you outlined for yourself. Yes, each of us has to find his own comfort level in salsa and to play around with what is going to fit our time constraints and budget. I previously mentioned that I did NOT really like private lessons because I did NOT consider them to be very fitting to my own learning style. However, I understand how you can get individualized attention to working on techniques and issues that are very specific to you.

Ultimately, I would space out the private lessons and attempt to practice the various things that were pointed out to you in the private lessons.. and if you feel necessary follow up with the private lessons every few months.... but the most advantage you are likely to get from those is to be able to practice the techniques and attempt to get the techniques to sink in through practice and practice and more practice. Sometimes, I have found that techniques or moves that I learned in the beginning of my salsa training sink in several years later.. and then I say to myself... shit... that is how it is done and that is what they were saying.... You get the moves and the techniques to become a part of your own muscle memory and way of doing by doing over and over and over and over... and probably with a variety of girls. In the beginning I focus on the very beginner girls because sometimes they are so clueless that they will let you do nearly anything, as long as you are nice about it... and helping her to have fun with you.

Yes, there are a lot of cool cats in the salsa scene.. both men and women... and many times, people may seem unapproachable, but if you talk with them a little bit about their interests (dance, etc), they will ready willing and able to tell quite a few stories.

(11-09-2014 10:49 PM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  

I haven't really pursued gaming/picking up any of the women yet, since I'm focusing more on the task while making new friends. I think you have to get quite good to really break into the studio and the Salsa scene, though, especially to get the girls.

I personally think that making friends can also be part of the gaming, and you can figure out how to focus on your target girls. For example, if you are becoming embedded in various circles, you will be able to more easily spot girls who are new to that circle or new to the salsa scene... and those kinds of girls can be good to attempt to isolate and to pursue.. .. that is, as you mentioned, if you can get "in" with them, before some other slick cat gets in there/

(11-09-2014 10:49 PM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  

Another one of the guys I met at a dance social said to not be intimidated by the more advanced dancers and just persist. I'm learning that it takes guts and VERY quick action when you spot a girl to promptly hold out your hand and ask the woman to dance... before some other man grabs her!! I pulled one girl for a dance last weekend just as another man was grabbing her shoulder to also ask for a dance! lol

Sometimes you may find some girls in the salsa scene that you want to pursue or if they are between relationships or something. It may be good to attempt to use these girls for social circle type networking; however, rarely do i come to focus on attempting any kind of relationship or even attempting to bang the more experienced girls in the salsa scene... even if they are sweet, in my experiences, these salsa experienced girls frequently are a lot more difficult to maneuver than are the girls who are new to the salsa scene... .. and ultimately it is better when us guys are setting the frame of the experiences rather than allowing the girl to set the frame... better for banging and gaming and just overall making sure the girl is following us.. rather than playing us.

(11-09-2014 10:49 PM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  

I'm weighing the value of continuing private Salsa lessons; they're pretty steep, but my instructor is really disciplining me and teaching me some stuff I couldn't pick up in a group setting.

I think space out the private lessons a bit.. you are going to get too dependent upon them. Ultimately, you need to practice and to work on your own style.. surely, you can get some pointers through private and group lessons, but ultimately you need to create your own visions and your own feelings and your own moves... in other words, you need to own your style and your moves and your lead, and I believe that you accomplish these kinds of things by pursuing girls with whom to practice. In the beginning the girls with whom you are practicing need NOT be good looking.. they just need to be willing to follow you and to practice with you... Of course, I frequently attempt to get the best looking girl possible that is willing to do all these practice things with you, but the practicality of the matter, is that it is more important to find girls willing to practice with you so that you can build up your confidence and techniques.. and then when you have good confidence and techniques, trade up and get better looking girls.

(11-09-2014 10:49 PM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  

I'm considering also signing up for a basic Bachata class. Half the songs they play at these Latin dance clubs are bachata, so it would help if I could eventually become proficient in this style as well to get more dances and hence more social openings. Would it be too soon for me to start working on Bachata while I'm still grinding away at Salsa?? I've been getting out at least 1-2 nights a week to Salsa venues and practicing as often as I can at home.

It sounds as if you are getting a decent grasp of salsa, and really Bachata can be a breeze compared with salsa. Since you are going to clubs that are playing so much Bachata, it does seem practical to incorporate Bachata into what you are learning....

Also, they should kind of feed on each other to some extent (salsa, cha cha cha, merengue and bachata). I frequently say that I do a lot of the same moves in each of the four styles of dance, but i just do the moves to a different beat, but more or less similar moves.

[JayJuanGee]

(11-10-2014 04:24 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Ok I'm finally cashing out on salsa game here. Been working on multiple salsa chicks here, all of them literally claw over me in dance class. I push the boundaries with one and she called and said she would not want to be my girlfriend (the fuck?) when I asked her out. Another girl disappear as soon as I suggest we go out.

Certainly there can be some drama with girls knowing each other, and frequently, you gotta figure out ways to rotate venues and even attempt to find girls that are NOT so embedded in the salsa scene.. that has been my preferred practice. Also, sometimes girls say stupid-ass or even crazy shit, and they are sometimes engaged in gaming or even bluffing the degree of their presence in the salsa scene... in the end, you may realize that the girl does NOT know as many people as she is proclaiming to know... which is fine with me... and even better to be able to isolate.

(11-10-2014 04:24 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

This is fucked up. I run the same game on non-salsa girls and I get laid with less effort.

This is very true... sometimes these salsa girls are just NOT worth anything except dancing in order to be able to bring non-salsa girls into the salsa scene and to create the impression that you are much more popular than you really are.

(11-10-2014 04:24 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

I admit that salsa is great for constructing your image and getting your confidence up. I have tons of pictures with girls doing sexual stuff and I use that for social media sometimes. When guys see how the girls are all over you they think your the MVP and you gain a lot of status. The girls in salsa are extremely attractive, if it's any consolation.

Agreed. Can also be great to mention to a girl that you approach in starbucks... Ask her if she dances, and invite her to go salsa dancing.

or to mention to one of your classmates in college or to mention to your coworker.. People also will label you as a salsa dancer, and sometimes allow you to go on "dates" with their friends to introduce them to salsa. Certainly, I do NOT mind dancing with beginner girls and largely beginner girls are the ones with whom I have the most luck in getting a bang or maybe somewhere close to a bang (Not all situation are successful, and I have had my fair share of failed efforts).

(11-10-2014 04:24 AM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

All of that is false positive. You are getting all that delusion without getting laid.

OP, if you want to continue taking lessons, consider this: do you REALLY enjoy dancing? Can you foresee this being a main hobby for you at the moment or near future. Otherwise what you already learn it's good enough for gaming purposes.

Surely, OP can speak for himself on this topic. I think that he mentioned that he wanted to learn dance and to build dance skills and that getting laid would be bonuses, but NOT necessarily his main focus. Surely, it seems that OP is getting quite a bit of what he was expecting.... NONETHELESS, I agree with you Dalaran that there may be needs, from to time to reassess whether we are getting what we want out of the situation. I certainly have my times of frustration in the salsa dance scene because social circles sometimes make for much less ability to separate out girls who are down to fuck or to get some of these girls to separate themselves out for you and to be discreet (especially if both the girl and you know that neither one of you are planning to leave the salsa scene). Girls also seem to get attached once they bang you, and these kinds of feelings can be awkward when we are continuing to see each other in various venues in the salsa scene. I guess that is why i (and I think a lot of the more experienced salsa guys) tend to identify and to focus on girls who are new to the salsa dance scene.

[blacknwhitespade]

(11-10-2014 05:54 AM)JayJuanGee Wrote:  

Surely, OP can speak for himself on this topic. I think that he mentioned that he wanted to learn dance and to build dance skills and that getting laid would be bonuses, but NOT necessarily his main focus. Surely, it seems that OP is getting quite a bit of what he was expecting.... NONETHELESS, I agree with you Dalaran that there may be needs, from to time to reassess whether we are getting what we want out of the situation. I certainly have my times of frustration in the salsa dance scene because social circles sometimes make for much less ability to separate out girls who are down to fuck or to get some of these girls to separate themselves out for you and to be discreet (especially if both the girl and you know that neither one of you are planning to leave the salsa scene). Girls also seem to get attached once they bang you, and these kinds of feelings can be awkward when we are continuing to see each other in various venues in the salsa scene. I guess that is why i (and I think a lot of the more experienced salsa guys) tend to identify and to focus on girls who are new to the salsa dance scene.

I think I'm getting close to that breaking point where this is either going to stagnate or I'm going to get fully immersed into Latin dance. I'm leaning towards the latter. I played violin in school and was a guitarist/songwriter for years, then didn't have much time for music scenes in the past few years. Dancing has lit a fire inside of me and is re-invigorating all of my creative musical passions! I'm even picking up my guitar more often now. It has definitely added energy and confidence to my life; just learning the boldness of asking women to dance and leading them through a number is bolstering my masculine frame in a new way. I'm also getting looks of surprise and intrigue when I mention my Salsa dancing to female friends, coworkers and strangers. In fact, I think it was thee conversation topic that helped me pull a few dates with one girl outside of the Salsa scene recently. It's like an automatic "coolness" image shaper and conversation fodder. I know we've hijacked this thread into dance/music in a forum for dating/game advice, but this hobby is definitely helping my vibe and therefore my game.

Salsa is challenging indeed, I still have a long way to go. Some days, I feel a resistance to go out, as if I'm not going to be able to get a handle on it and break in; but once I get out of my house and down to the club or studio social, the momentum and excitement carries me from there. I've danced with at least 2-3 different girls at each event and met a few cool Salsa wingmen. Right now, I'm breaking it down as a need for muscle memory by practicing as often as possible as well as listening to Salsa records and trying to pick out and count the beats so I at least have a clue of what to do in each song. JayJuanGee, if you think a supplement of Bachata would help my Salsa I will definitely take a class asap.

Slightly off topic, but I've also been very curious about Swing dancing, a style that is closer to my Rockabilly/Country roots. The rhythm sounds more familiar to me, but the routines look crazily complex! I don't know how many people can gain proficiency in both Salsa/Latin and Swing, but for now I'm dedicating myself to the Latin styles.

I am not sure why I did not put 2 and 2 together and get into dancing years ago when I was a working musician playing gigs and had several friends who were into Swing/Country/Mambo etc. At any rate, Salsa is re-igniting those passions to new levels and helping me break into a big new city. I'm contemplating a membership to my studio if I'm going to be taking several more private/group lessons, although if I can dedicate myself enough, at some point I can imagine not needing lessons.

[Dalaran1991]

OP, despite my eventual disillusionment of salsa game, learning salsa basically changed my life. I used to be the beta who can't even look at girls, much less asking them for a dance. Musically speaking I can't tell one note from another. Now girls are lining up to dance with me and I get swarmed with invitation.

If you have decided that salsa is for you, PM me and we can discuss this.

[El_gato]

I have been in the salsa and bachata scene for 10 months - having limited success but can see the social circles multiplying and more bang opportunities. It is definately a slow playing game . Question: I am thinking of starting up Kizomba to round things out - not hell bent lessons but casual intro lessons and more relaxed pace. Do you guy find the Kiz chicas more DTF than salsa ones? I like the dance - very close holds with hot and avg woman

[Dalaran1991]

OP, I'll get back to u with some details when I have more time. I'm doing a recollection of my salsa game anyway.

Quote:

I have been in the salsa and bachata scene for 10 months - having limited success but can see the social circles multiplying and more bang opportunities. It is definately a slow playing game . Question: I am thinking of starting up Kizomba to round things out - not hell bent lessons but casual intro lessons and more relaxed pace. Do you guy find the Kiz chicas more DTF than salsa ones? I like the dance - very close holds with hot and avg woman

Yes, slow game is the only way to stay insane if u wanna game in salsa. As for kizomba it's a bitch to learn for guys. It's awesome if you have a flexible and cute partner, but it's suffocating if she is fat and smells. Beggars aint choosers, but at least in salsa/bachata you can control the distance how close you wanna be. In kiz you need to really throw ego out of the window if you wanna learn quickly, because all girls who aren't ugly looking will be swept up as soon as people smell a kizomba song coming up.

Also the technicality of kizomba is totally different from salsa/bachata. Forget what you learnt, it's useless. In kiz it's the upper body, breathing and rhythm that do all the work. JJG knows more about this than I do.

[El_gato]

Thanks - was at a Kiz intro session last week - most of the woman were bangable - Kiz is all the rage in toronto so lots of woman entering the scene

[JayJuanGee]

Sorry that it took me a little while to respond to your message. I respond to your various points below.

(11-10-2014 11:48 AM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  

I think I'm getting close to that breaking point where this is either going to stagnate or I'm going to get fully immersed into Latin dance. I'm leaning towards the latter.

hahahaha... don't try to fool us. To me, it sounds that you have already found considerable value in the hobby and even latin dance as a focus. I do get your point though about sometimes walking away from something. Dance is a very social interaction, and there can be considerable amount of feelings and personal investment involved, even when you do NOT realize and acknowledge such investment(s). Sometimes various personal rejections or bad experiences can turn a guy off from certain circles, but dance can be a fairly closed community, and guys might feel that some embarassments (and/or decisions that they make) will follow them to other parts of the dance community... including if guys were to get their "hearts broken", if there is such a thing for an RVF guy, by various girl(s).

(11-10-2014 11:48 AM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  

I played violin in school and was a guitarist/songwriter for years, then didn't have much time for music scenes in the past few years. Dancing has lit a fire inside of me and is re-invigorating all of my creative musical passions! I'm even picking up my guitar more often now. It has definitely added energy and confidence to my life; just learning the boldness of asking women to dance and leading them through a number is bolstering my masculine frame in a new way. I'm also getting looks of surprise and intrigue when I mention my Salsa dancing to female friends, coworkers and strangers. In fact, I think it was thee conversation topic that helped me pull a few dates with one girl outside of the Salsa scene recently. It's like an automatic "coolness" image shaper and conversation fodder.

I agree that there can be considerable positive dance-related fall out... especially, if you have taken interest in such a hobby.

(11-10-2014 11:48 AM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  

I know we've hijacked this thread into dance/music in a forum for dating/game advice, but this hobby is definitely helping my vibe and therefore my game.

Personally, I believe that your framing of your concerns in this thread is NOT a large divergence from various RVF themes. Certainly, guys have different opinions on how much value they give to banging girls, and sometimes guys can be looked down upon when they hang around with girls or if they let girls set the frame. We can fall into that trap NO matter what our hobbies and/or work, especially if our hobbies and/or work involve collaborating with women and sometimes even learning from women. I believe that in the end, we do have to consider ourselves and how we view ourselves and to attempt to recognize, to the best of our abilities, when we may be giving too much latitude to women to call some of the shots. I find that sometimes winning over a girl involves giving her some latitude until she feels comfortable that you are NOT going to over power her, then once she recognizes that she will follow your lead and even frequently follow it much further than what is in her own personal interests.

(11-10-2014 11:48 AM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  

Salsa is challenging indeed, I still have a long way to go. Some days, I feel a resistance to go out, as if I'm not going to be able to get a handle on it and break in; but once I get out of my house and down to the club or studio social, the momentum and excitement carries me from there.

Probably, those kinds of jitters do NOT completely go away, especially if you are visiting a new dance scene by yourself. However, developing both game and salsa dance skills can allow excuses for practicing and even injecting yourself into socially unfamiliar and uncomfortable environments and still walking away with various kinds of pleasures from it. Sometimes also, I have found that psychologically, I need a back up plan, so if I go to a strange place, I may give myself a time target of an hour or some other predetermined amount of time to give the place a chance.. and if I do NOT like the feeling that I am getting I will have already decided that I am leaving by x time. Then I can still say that I checked it out and I got whatever exploration value from that place.

(11-10-2014 11:48 AM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  

I've danced with at least 2-3 different girls at each event and met a few cool Salsa wingmen.

I know that some guys may think that we are a bunch of pussies for feeling such pleasure from dancing with girls, but yes, sometimes there is going to be considerable pleasure from dancing with new girls and sometimes with ones that you may have met several venues in the past. These days from time to time, I will run into girls with whom I danced with 10 years previously... It can be good, even though they sure look older... he hehehehe... (I am sure that I do NOT look that great myself - even though I attempt to fake it).

Currently, there are many nights that I dance with 20 or more different girls, and some guys may disagree with that kind of use of energy, and I agree that sometimes it works against me to dance so much and with so many girls without getting any contact information from potential target girls. I have actually walked away from clubs at the end of the night from time to time and being so physically exhausted that I would NOT feel inclined to put any effort into attempting to game any girl... but sometimes in these kinds of situations, some girl may just fall into your lap (because you gamed her on some previous occasion).

(11-10-2014 11:48 AM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  

Right now, I'm breaking it down as a need for muscle memory by practicing as often as possible as well as listening to Salsa records and trying to pick out and count the beats so I at least have a clue of what to do in each song.

I think that's the idea.. just keep doing it and trying to develop good habits and sometimes even trying to throw in some various focuses that you are considering for yourself in the short term... maybe certain moves that you keep repeating or certain patience with the beat or sometimes even purposefully stopping your movement at certain times in the song, during the breaks (which can really inspire the girl regarding the confidence that you may communicate to her with the purposeful stopping and starting. All of that takes practice to get it to flow smoothly and to own the moves.

(11-10-2014 11:48 AM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  

JayJuanGee, if you think a supplement of Bachata would help my Salsa I will definitely take a class asap.

From your description, it sounds as if it could be a good investment of your time - especially, if you are perceiving that bachata is currently being played with such frequency in the venues that you visit.

Personally, as I stated several times before, I believe it is NOT a good idea for guys to attempt to learn a lot of dance styles at once, because we gotta focus on attempting to get good at one at a time to inspire confidence in our dance partners. Yet, if we are going to places that play a lot of bachata, then maybe we are going to need to incorporate those styles. I think that you can transfer lessons from one genre to another, and certainly I use techniques from all genres into others. When I dance merengue, i frequently think of it as an opportunity to practice my salsa lead and connection to a different beat.

(11-10-2014 11:48 AM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  

Slightly off topic, but I've also been very curious about Swing dancing, a style that is closer to my Rockabilly/Country roots. The rhythm sounds more familiar to me, but the routines look crazily complex! I don't know how many people can gain proficiency in both Salsa/Latin and Swing, but for now I'm dedicating myself to the Latin styles.

There are quite a few people who dance in various genres like this. Personally, I am NOT as turned on by swing music, but I can appreciate that some people will be turned on by swing music. Personally, I would NOT recommend mixing them up too much.. and maybe becoming more proficient with salsa before really experimenting with swing.... but to each his own regarding preferences... and what may be drawing you in that direction.

(11-10-2014 11:48 AM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  

I am not sure why I did not put 2 and 2 together and get into dancing years ago when I was a working musician playing gigs and had several friends who were into Swing/Country/Mambo etc. At any rate, Salsa is re-igniting those passions to new levels and helping me break into a big new city.

Yep. Sometimes, we will reflect upon why we did NOT start a hobby earlier... but really, we cannot relive the past.... and we are only going to get older.. so better enjoy some youthful things while still young... hehehehe.

And, actually, as you know musicians can sometimes be playing until they are quite old, so maybe you never completely quit with those kinds of hobbies, as long as you keep practicing and salsa dancing gives you more reason to stay in touch with your musicality sides.

(11-10-2014 11:48 AM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  

I'm contemplating a membership to my studio if I'm going to be taking several more private/group lessons, although if I can dedicate myself enough, at some point I can imagine not needing lessons.

I see some guys who take fairly basic or intermediate classes for longer than I have been dancing, and I am sort of inclined to believe that they are taking classes for the socializing purposes because they may NOT be learning very many dance skills from some of the classes that they attend.

At some point, you will find that you get a lot more learning from mere practice and coming up with your own stuff... though sometimes it still can be helpful to watch some other guys or even attend some classes, even as a more advanced dancer.... and you can usually get quite a lot from classes in the first year or two of dancing... but if you go to the same dance studio, for your own personal dance advancement, you may need some rotation in your instructors, too.

[JayJuanGee]

(11-10-2014 01:24 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

OP, I'll get back to u with some details when I have more time. I'm doing a recollection of my salsa game anyway.

Quote:

I have been in the salsa and bachata scene for 10 months - having limited success but can see the social circles multiplying and more bang opportunities. It is definately a slow playing game . Question: I am thinking of starting up Kizomba to round things out - not hell bent lessons but casual intro lessons and more relaxed pace. Do you guy find the Kiz chicas more DTF than salsa ones? I like the dance - very close holds with hot and avg woman

Yes, slow game is the only way to stay insane if u wanna game in salsa. As for kizomba it's a bitch to learn for guys. It's awesome if you have a flexible and cute partner, but it's suffocating if she is fat and smells. Beggars aint choosers, but at least in salsa/bachata you can control the distance how close you wanna be. In kiz you need to really throw ego out of the window if you wanna learn quickly, because all girls who aren't ugly looking will be swept up as soon as people smell a kizomba song coming up.

Also the technicality of kizomba is totally different from salsa/bachata. Forget what you learnt, it's useless. In kiz it's the upper body, breathing and rhythm that do all the work. JJG knows more about this than I do.

I don't really know anything about kizomba; however, by watching it, I can see that there are some bachata-like moves and in my thinking the moves of one dance can be incorporated into other dances... but sometimes to learn another style of dance, you need to attempt to embed yourself into the teachings and style of that other dance in order to get some of the subtleties and the differences and to be able to apply those moves to your leading the girl.

I personally believe that you should focus on the kinds of dance(s) that that you believe that you are going to be able to employ and to practice. If you see some social circles in which you want to attempt to enter through such kizomba dance, then all the power to you take lessons and apply it and maybe even you may become very actively involved in those circles... yet I think that you will also be able to apply some of the styles of Kizomba to other dances, if you decide to exit that kizomba social circle.

[blacknwhitespade]

So, I went out again last night to a new venue, solo. Ran into a guy I had met at another venue a few weeks before and struck up some conversation. They did a free 30 minute lesson to start; practiced with various girls. Then, the floor opened and I got seriously in the zone. I danced with 16 different girls over the span of the night!! 13 Salsa numbers, 2 bachata and 1 cha cha cha, which is hilarious because I had no clue how to cha cha so I just sort of fit a salsa-ish step into it. I just got on a major role and followed a 3-second-rule more or less, confidently offering my hand to girls right and left. Some were beginners like me, some were intermediate, some were more advanced. A few of the advanced ones were clearly bored with me, one stopped about half way through to excuse herself to the restrooms, but most of them were fun to dance with and seemed to be alright with me and my moves. My basic rhythm is getting close to being proficient, though I still only know a few basic turns and cross bodies. I'm still intimidated to ask the advanced girls who are dancing with advanced guys doing all sorts of moves/turns. I'm afraid they'll dance with me and be like "damn, this guy is so lame, he's just a newbie" and clearly a few of them put out that vibe.

It was a lot of fun though, my best night yet by far. I chatted a bit with a few of the girls, but mostly just kept on moving and looking for more girls to dance with. I studied some of the more advanced leads and tried to get a bit more aggressive and tackle some more advanced spins, cross bodies and footwork; trying to cut loose and develop a bit of my own style and approach to each song. It's tough because some of the advanced females are set in their style and act bored or impatient with me while some of the beginners are clumsy and hard to cue what I want to do with them. I'm just going to keep venue changing and hitting these little free lessons whenever possible while I keep plugging away in my lessons and on my own a bit. The free lessons help to acquaint everyone and create an open atmosphere from the get-go, and it definitely helps if you have a wingman/someone you know to chat with and encourage each other to pursue these girls!

Also, I just started a bachata group class meeting once a week and I'm still taking a private Salsa lesson once every 1-2 weeks. My Salsa instructor is very technical, really emphasizing crisp technical accuracy with my basic Salsa.

[El_gato]

Good job! Generally some of the alpha females stay near their clique to limit the chance of an inferior dancer asking them to dance - fair enough! Others are quite gracious and deal with their partners limitations by using their advanced styling to make things better for all. Glad you are having fun. I think the 3 second rule is golden- I have hesitated a lot and find it increases the odds if a turn down. Did you get any digits? I am still finding it difficult to convert the dances into phone numbers

[JayJuanGee]

(11-17-2014 04:51 PM)blacknwhitespade Wrote:  

So, I went out again last night to a new venue, solo. Ran into a guy I had met at another venue a few weeks before and struck up some conversation. They did a free 30 minute lesson to start; practiced with various girls. Then, the floor opened and I got seriously in the zone. I danced with 16 different girls over the span of the night!! 13 Salsa numbers, 2 bachata and 1 cha cha cha, which is hilarious because I had no clue how to cha cha so I just sort of fit a salsa-ish step into it. I just got on a major role and followed a 3-second-rule more or less, confidently offering my hand to girls right and left. Some were beginners like me, some were intermediate, some were more advanced. A few of the advanced ones were clearly bored with me, one stopped about half way through to excuse herself to the restrooms, but most of them were fun to dance with and seemed to be alright with me and my moves. My basic rhythm is getting close to being proficient, though I still only know a few basic turns and cross bodies. I'm still intimidated to ask the advanced girls who are dancing with advanced guys doing all sorts of moves/turns. I'm afraid they'll dance with me and be like "damn, this guy is so lame, he's just a newbie" and clearly a few of them put out that vibe.

It was a lot of fun though, my best night yet by far. I chatted a bit with a few of the girls, but mostly just kept on moving and looking for more girls to dance with. I studied some of the more advanced leads and tried to get a bit more aggressive and tackle some more advanced spins, cross bodies and footwork; trying to cut loose and develop a bit of my own style and approach to each song. It's tough because some of the advanced females are set in their style and act bored or impatient with me while some of the beginners are clumsy and hard to cue what I want to do with them. I'm just going to keep venue changing and hitting these little free lessons whenever possible while I keep plugging away in my lessons and on my own a bit. The free lessons help to acquaint everyone and create an open atmosphere from the get-go, and it definitely helps if you have a wingman/someone you know to chat with and encourage each other to pursue these girls!

Also, I just started a bachata group class meeting once a week and I'm still taking a private Salsa lesson once every 1-2 weeks. My Salsa instructor is very technical, really emphasizing crisp technical accuracy with my basic Salsa.

All of this sounds really good. Especially, when I was a beginner dancer, I focused on going to the events with the most beginner dancers - and if there was a free class, then I figured that there would be more beginner dancers.

And, certainly mixing up the venues can be good too, in order to increase your numbers of beginner dancers; however, you may find that some of the venues are much more friendly to your level of dance or that you have met a few girls at one or more of the venues that cause you to return to that venue... nothing wrong with that because sometimes some of the beginner girls will get more friendly towards you, merely because they have seen you on a few occasions.


When you dance with a lot of the girls, in the beginning, then you will be able to practice your moves and become more and more comfortable with the moves including being able to sense whether you should abandon the move or convert the move into something else or to lead harder or more lightly. Over the years, I have created quite a few back up moves that go with certain moves. In the event that one move is NOT working, I can convert the move into another more easy move and make the move seem intentional and nearly seamless (from the girl's perspective). Also, sometimes by practicing a lot, you will find that some moves flow more smoothly when they come from one move as compared with another (attempting to use the momentum and the direction of the movement your advantage). There are some moves that I do in which the finishes turn and then I will get very close to her and only barely touch her or other times pull her very close into a backspot turn spin (in which we are both rotating clockwise for several 8 counts - or sometimes just one 8 count or half of an 8 count). Sometimes you may figure out that some of the moves can be done in very elaborate and way, but when you are working up to being able to accomplish it, you may chose to execute only a small version of it. Then if the girl is getting used to it, then you keep doing the same move but adding more and more momentum to it... Sometimes the girl does NOT even realize you are doing the same thing over and over and over... hahahaha. And sometimes the opposite works too. Start out very high ended version and then subsequently execute small versions (that is once you get fairly competent in performing the high end version).

Regarding advanced girls, it is NOT a big deal whether you dance with them or NOT, that is if there are enough potential girl partners, then you can just completely skip the advance girls. You may also learn ways of dealing with them that you just dance with them, but you hold back on your moves and only perform the ones that you really know well. Also, sometimes, after you dance for a while, you may come to realize that some of the advance girls are NOT as advanced as you think.. but when you are a beginner they seem more advanced than they really are.. hahaha... Sometimes you can also mentally envision that they are NOT as advanced as they think they are.. and it may cause you to have more confidence.

Regarding the private lessons, to each his own. I would just suggest that you are comfortably deciding for yourself how frequently you want to take the lessons rather than going by what the instructor says ... which may NOT necessarily be in your best financial interest and even a bit of a waste of time. You need to be able to have some time to attempt to apply what you are doing, yet if you feel that private lessons are a good use of your time and money, then surely NO problem with that personal choice of yours.

BTW... I am really technical too, when I show student's privately. I am a stickler for the count and also a stickler for proper turns, posture and ways to keep a connection. And, instructors will have different styles, and some of them overlap, some of them are sort of universals and sometimes they teach bad techniques (or less than ideal techniques).

[JayJuanGee]

(11-17-2014 08:29 PM)El_gato Wrote:  

Good job! Generally some of the alpha females stay near their clique to limit the chance of an inferior dancer asking them to dance - fair enough! Others are quite gracious and deal with their partners limitations by using their advanced styling to make things better for all. Glad you are having fun. I think the 3 second rule is golden- I have hesitated a lot and find it increases the odds if a turn down. Did you get any digits? I am still finding it difficult to convert the dances into phone numbers

Even though I believe that I understand what you mean by the term "alpha female," personally, I would NOT refer to advanced female dancers as "alpha females" because largely most females in the salsa dance scene are NOT really "alpha." Largely, they are willing to follow guys, and they want to be lead. However, the more advanced their dance level, the better the guy's lead needs to be and the more confidence the guy needs to be able to exude in order to inspire that the girl have confidence in the guy's ability to lead her.

Surely, there are some women who are attempting to be alpha in the salsa scene, and I largely avoid getting into these circles. Some of those girls are big into leading and teaching and frequently it is NOT great to dance with those girls anyhow, in my experience and opinion... leave those girls for the other guys... hahahaha.


I am NOT sure what is the 3 second rule? Can you explain it?


Regarding getting numbers: I go through various kinds of phases with this. Sometimes I will ask for numbers and other times NOT. Girls do seem to get asked for their number a lot, so some of them are on guard. Accordingly, when I am in the mood to ask for numbers, I generally will only ask for numbers when we have some kind of report going... and we kind of seem to hit it off in one way or another or if I see her and dance with her several times (either at that one event or over several events) then I will ask. There can be a decent signal to ask for the number when the girl is asking the guy quite a few questions, then I get the sense she wants to get to know me more and then I will ask.. Probably, each of us vary somewhat to the extent to which we get numbers.. sometimes i will go several weeks without getting any numbers and other times, I will get several numbers in one night.... And some venues are just more friendly than others, as we will likely experience those varying levels of friendliness.

[aphelion]

Okay. I need to discuss this.

First off, the female instructors are not going to give a flying fuck about you unless you're top 1% in everything else. The reason for this is simple. Just like with any other fractured-off subculture, salsa communities have their own status and their own heirarchies. When you come into salsa as a man without dance skills, you're bottom of the heirarchy until you learn some skills and make some friends. The instructors would rather bang Johnny Eduardo who sleeps on a couch than you, simply because Johnny Eduardo has been on Dancing With the Latino Stars on channel 197 before and you haven't and he dances better than you, plus he taught a class one time and that's more than you have. That's not insanity, that's status in their perceived worldview and you're running up against a strong headwind.

The whole reason to take salsa or dance classes in general is to improve your overall dance skills. Dancing salsa regularly in a tight community won't get you laid if you're not getting laid in the real world already. What it will do is teach you how to move so that when you're in the real world in a club or whatever, you're much more visually impressive to regular girls (yes, it's transferable) by virtue of being able to move your body and isolate your motions. Which, if you've spent a year+ in the dance community and have worked hard at it, you'll be doing those things.

The alternative is to show up to dance class on day 1, game a similarly newbie girl, and go from there. But that only lasts so long.

[aphelion]

Also, the most eligible girls in the dance scene are the married ones. Mark my words.

[Dalaran1991]

JJG, the 3-sec rule is my advice to him: you got 3 secs from seeing an "available" girl to approaching her for a dance.

Funny how this thread pop up just after I had a massacre streak in salsa.

First, I just almost-laid a freaking hot girl in salsa. Go see my other thread about worst and best lay of my life. The kicker was indeed my superior dancing skills Then of course she gave me the drama of "let's not go any further etc". Thanks to advice on here I laughed it off and continued gaming as usual.

Then I just came back from a coffee date with another girl in salsa I hit on and kissed. She said she wanted to talk. Whatever. She wouldn't want to go further because she has someone (and she also seems to have a lot of self-esteem issues) but she would really really love to stay partner and friend with me. I gave her a no, that I seek something deeper with my partner and if she couldn't fill it she has to walk. She was really really sad and try to convince me that we could still dance together. That I am the only one she is comfortable dancing with etc. and if I walk then salsa won't be the same for her.

Funny I have been getting that a lot. Today I didn't even get a chance to game the girl I wanted to because girls were asking me to dance left and right. Tomorrow there's a party and every girl I said hi to made sure I'm coming to the party....

You guys may start telling me what the hell I am complaining about. Rest assured, become THE man in salsa and you will see it's not what it seems. Girls love to dance with you and will queue up to you, but that's because they want fun and look sexy and I'm the only one who can give it to them. However, in salsa your time is limited and your options are limited. The only girls worth gaming are the ones new to salsa, and it wont be long until they become salsa sluts. If you just dance with every girl indiscriminately some other guy is lining up on that cute newbie chick. You don't need more social proof cause you already have plenty. Be choosy. It is very easy to get suck into a delusion of grandeur while in fact all you are is an entertainer.

Girls in sala talk. I'm trying to save my ass myself. After you hit on a few girls, some of which inevitably won't be DTF, they start talking. In salsa having a player reputation is a death sentence. This is why you want to establish an alliance with the platonic salsa girls who love to be your partner, so they can have your back but I wouldn't even count on it.

Screen girls as quickly as possible and try to get them to go dancing/doing things with you alone. Ge tFuck all the "let's go dance with the whole group", if a girl like you they are going with you. Dont waste time with the attention whores. While there ramp up the sexual dancing, and venue change her home.

Don't fucking bother with advanced girls, they are salsa sluts. They are there to look pretty and DHV to other guys, not to fuck. If you can get her alone with lots of alcohol then why not, but I wouldn't even bother. They usually have very toxic and draining personalities. Focus on the newbie girls and lock them down before they become salsluts.

[El_gato]

Sage advice!

[JayJuanGee]

(11-19-2014 02:48 AM)aphelion Wrote:  

Also, the most eligible girls in the dance scene are the married ones. Mark my words.

I may agree with you about married girls being more able to play because there may also be less competition after them, and they are generally more DTF (but on their schedule because they may have kids or even some other spousal constrictions - including discreetness in where they can meet).

on the other hand, my dancing in my 30s and 40s may skew my perspective to some extent because many women (at least the attractive ones) are going to already have had many and maybe even continuing relationships with guys when they are in their in their late 20s and thereafter (which tend to be the girls that have mostly been available to me).

Maybe you can explain more regarding your perspective on married women, yet I kind of agree with you about married women being a sizable DTF demographic in the salsa scene because about half of my banging salsa relations have been with married women (or women who were otherwise in some kind of relationship with a guy - usually outside the salsa scene). I do NOT usually ask too many questions, and usually they say enough for me to know that they are in some kind of committed relationship. On the other hand, half of my banging relations have been with single and otherwise "available" women (so married women are NOT the total story - and maybe NOT even a preferable target for some guys because some guys may NOT be ready and/or willing to go there - and some guys in their younger 20s may NOT feel that they need to go there because target girls in their younger 20s may NOT have been married yet).

[Dalaran1991]

Heh JJG, good to see you back! Been away for a few weeks haven't ya?

Now that I'm thinking about it, I have another secret to share with you guys, but correct me on this.

DO NOT teach girls how to dance!

It's like buying your girl a smartphone so she could talk to other men.

If she is complete newbie, show her how to do basic steps, that's all, then start spinning her around. Totally awe her with your move repertoire. Dont BS me you don't really need to have a good dance with her now do you She will go dance with another guy, who will try to teach her how to dance at the cost of his resources. Giving away free knowledge it's even worse than paying for dates.

Here's the kicker: she will dance with other guys who only do basic stuff with her, which isn't fun. Then you come back to her and start spinning her in advance moves. Who is giving her more fun? Girls just wanna have fun.

I never understand why so many girls tell me I dance so well and they could only dance with me. If I dont invite them they are often in a corner with arms folded, refusing to dance with other guys. And to be honest my dancing isn't that great, but I'm an excellent exhibitionist. Learn how to lead well and how to use the girl's body, they will become dependent on you.

Have a signature move and DO NOT share it with anyone. Have a move that only you can do maybe due to your special physiology, style or whatever. It's like a chef with a secret recipe.

Now maybe a few of you would say you should spend time teaching girls to dance IN YOUR WAY so you've got more reason to be with her. I tried that too and it didn't work, and take too much investment.

On that note, if girls ask if you have been dancing for a while, tell her it's your first lesson, with a grin. Work wonders

[JayJuanGee]

(11-19-2014 06:50 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Heh JJG, good to see you back! Been away for a few weeks haven't ya?

I have been around, just posting on RVF a little less frequently in recent months because sometimes there just are NOT enough hours in the day to accomplish everything.

(11-19-2014 06:50 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Now that I'm thinking about it, I have another secret to share with you guys, but correct me on this.

DO NOT teach girls how to dance!

It's like buying your girl a smartphone so she could talk to other men.

If she is complete newbie, show her how to do basic steps, that's all, then start spinning her around. Totally awe her with your move repertoire. Dont BS me you don't really need to have a good dance with her now do you She will go dance with another guy, who will try to teach her how to dance at the cost of his resources. Giving away free knowledge it's even worse than paying for dates.

Here's the kicker: she will dance with other guys who only do basic stuff with her, which isn't fun. Then you come back to her and start spinning her in advance moves. Who is giving her more fun? Girls just wanna have fun.

I never understand why so many girls tell me I dance so well and they could only dance with me. If I dont invite them they are often in a corner with arms folded, refusing to dance with other guys. And to be honest my dancing isn't that great, but I'm an excellent exhibitionist. Learn how to lead well and how to use the girl's body, they will become dependent on you.

Have a signature move and DO NOT share it with anyone. Have a move that only you can do maybe due to your special physiology, style or whatever. It's like a chef with a secret recipe.

Now maybe a few of you would say you should spend time teaching girls to dance IN YOUR WAY so you've got more reason to be with her. I tried that too and it didn't work, and take too much investment.

On that note, if girls ask if you have been dancing for a while, tell her it's your first lesson, with a grin. Work wonders

Even though I have been employing quite different strategies from what seems to be your current strategies, I think that there could be some value in your described approach for some guys and for some situations. In the end, guys need to play to their strengths and maybe even experiment a little bit regarding what strategies work for them to achieve their objectives.

If a guy's objective is to bang multiple girls in a short period of time and to get the girls to move on (while the guys are moving on), then dazzling the girls in various ways could achieve that - and it could work on both beginner dancers and some of the girls more established in the salsa scene (depending on how a guy plays it).

I do have a tendency to teach girls and to use that teaching angle to get bangs; however, I agree with you that sometimes, teaching can be investing too much into a girl and it may result in bangs that are more longer relationship oriented with more extensive emotional attachments on both ends, rather than just getting in, getting the bang or whatever else and getting out.

Another variation of the teaching strategy is to use teaching as a ploy, but really, the guy has NO intention to teach her anything meaningful.. maybe teach a little here and there and go through the motions, but don't really teach too much.


Personally, I do also get a lot of pleasure from teaching various salsa and dance techniques, and since I have been dancing quite a while, I have quite a few dance related techniques that I feel that I can teach that take some time for girls to perfect (especially beginner girls), and I will frequently get a girl and bang her during the period that I am teaching her, and it may take a few months of teaching and banging of a girl, and then move onto the next girl (after the earlier one "graduates" from my teachings).

Frequently, I have joked around with guys in the salsa dance scene about this idea of girls "graduating", and really some girls do not want to graduate, and then these non-graduating girls create drama in the salsa scene.

So, really, there are a lot of times that I do get frustrated with a lot of these kinds of salsa sex relations because it is frequently difficult to control and a girl who you were banging earlier can really screw up future prospects because I have found that a lot of times, I have to work girls for several weeks before the relationship escalates into a bang... and of course, girls talk and many times girls do NOT want to be perceived as being on an assembly line. They want to be treated as "special," and there are ways around this but sometimes old relations can really interfere with the building of new relations... however, if guys are able to play the quicker bang and/or the in and out approach, then there may NOT be enough time for older relations to sabotage such new relations.

Another problem can be investing into a girl and nearly getting the bang and not quite getting the bang, and then she has other ideas and moves on with some other guy in the dance scene - which can be irritating and has happened to me on several occasions over the years. I am of the sense that in the end, there is probably no one strategy that is going to work for all guys, and guys will need to play around with strategies that work for them and they may even may need to play different strategies with different girls.

[Dalaran1991]

Quote:

Frequently, I have joked around with guys in the salsa dance scene about this idea of girls "graduating", and really some girls do not want to graduate, and then these non-graduating girls create drama in the salsa scene.

JJG, el professor de salsa. Giving salsa slut certification since 2000. Lol!!!