[Laner]

(07-11-2014 09:37 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 06:54 PM)Blaster Wrote:  

(07-11-2014 09:13 AM)Atlantic Wrote:  

I am a strong believer in karma and if there is a way of returning it I always will.

I don't believe in Karma but I do believe in community. If a critical mass of people can be counted on to make a best effort to return lost property, then odds are good that you'll benefit at some point.

The upside of a community with these values is that they don't have to waste time and energy being paranoid about keeping their belongings secure.

The downside of such a community is that people can be more careless with their things. They'll be vulnerable to exploitative sociopaths who ignore the community standards and act strictly for personal gain.
[/align]

A Swedish girl was telling me about the generous benefits in Sweden and I mentioned how easy it must be to exploit the system there. She said there's a strong sense of common community and she'd never do that because it betrays the community.

Where I grew up in Canada we have the same idea of community hammered into us from a young age. It obviously works as there are few people there who would take advantage of another person unfairly.

I remember when I was a kid and a Kosovo refugee family moved to town. They were dirt poor and they would walk along the ditch of the road to collect bottles. By the weeks end everyone in the community had a game plan for them to get work etc. My friends father headed the task and I remember thinking what an honorable man he was and I could not wait to be able to do something similar for someone some day.

Just a couple weeks ago my parents were visiting me and they were out for a walk and my dad sees a fat stack of cash sitting by the gutter. At first he doesn't believe it, but reaches down for it. There is no one around, and he figures it to be about $10,000 in mostly worn $20's. They are not far from a bank, but are also in a posh part of town where they see lots of gangsters so my mom is worried.

My dad decides to take a seat on a nearby bench and wait to see what happens. Sure enough a young guy comes sprinting up the street looking for something. My dad watches him for a few seconds and then gives him whistle. He asks the guy if he is looking for something (keep in mind my dad is a big burly biker) and the guy is hesitant but says yes he is and its a lot of money. My dad just hands over the cash and they guy tries to give him a $100 but he just says no thanks others need it more than he.

He figures it was a drug dealer, probably low enough on the food chain to have possibly ended him up in the ER.

When my mom told the story over a big dinner that night, everyone just nodded in agreement. Not one person said that he should have kept it. The fact the he was likely a drug dealer meant that people were in actual fear that he might come to harm.

That is a society I want to live in, raise a family in, and put hard work into. Countries like Canada, North East Asian, Scandinavia.... they make it worth investing in the community because you get to experience the results.

[big poppa]

I remember when I was 5 or 6 and my sister was a few years older, we saw a wallet fly of a car, picked it up and it had probably 700 Aus dollars.

It belonged to someone who lived on the same street as us, returned it and the grumpy woman was barely thankful and didn't even give us 5 or 10 dollars.

But I have had my wallet returned to me on 3 occassions, once when it had 450 cash and once by a 12 year old kid when I was around 17, it had 110 cash and I gave him 10 dollars. So yes, I will always return a wallet if there is ID in it.

If it's just a wallet and cash with no cards or ID, I might be tempted to keep it.

[polymath]

I would return all of the contents, cash included. Pocketing money from a lost wallet is no different than stealing, both in my eyes and by law in my state. If I need money, I'll work harder or spend less.

I have had a few friends and fraternity brothers who stole, and I lost trust and respect for each of them as a result. I know a lot of guys see it differently, but personally, I see thieves as bottom-feeders.

[tarquin]

I would return the wallet full of IOU's. Good as cash.

In all seriousness, I would return it with all of the money and not expect a reward. That being said, I'm also not going out of my way to return it, either. You can swing by my work or I'll drop it off at the police station and you can claim it there. I'm not driving to you unless it's on my way. Over the years I've managed to find a number of cell phones, and I've always returned them and not expected anything in return.

Additionally, if somebody did find my wallet I would give them a reward proportional to the value of what was in there. Most likely nothing more than $50. I tend to carry little cash. If the finder asked for a reward before I had the chance to offer, it is likely I'd be turned off and say no, even if el mech was going to keep it all anyway.

[speakeasy]

Reader's digest actually went around the world and did this experiment and found out that Helsinki residents were most likely to return a wallet with money:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insi...ities.html

[soup]

When I was in fifth grade, two of my friends found a wad of money that was hidden behind a tile in the subway. I remember they were absent for a day playing hooky with all that cash that was probably from a drug deal.

[2Wycked]

I've done this before. I also have done something similar with a UPS package I found.

I was driving by the local cemetary in high school. The cemetary was on the edge of town, in the rolling hills between the corn fields. A smallish package was right in the middle of the road. I pulled over and picked it up, realizing that it must have fallen from a UPS truck.

It was going to a small town about fifty miles away from my home. I found the town on a map and went there. Some dude at the local gas station told me where the road was. I remember parking in her driveway and going up to her door. The woman was clearly bewildered when some teenage kid with peach fuzz handed her a seemingly random package. Once she realized what the package was, she almost started to cry.

One of her relatives had sent her some family pictures and she had thought the package was lost. Such a random act for somebody you don't know had quite the impact on her. I declined any money from her when I brought the package, but she eventually called my principal, told him what I did and mailed a personal note and a gift card to my school.

I still have that note to this day. When I was home last summer, I remember finding it buried my desk in my bedroom. She was deeply moved I went out of my way to ensure her package got to her.

For all the nihilism on the forum, it's moments like that and notes like hers that reaffirm your belief in humanity. I have no idea about karma or "paying it forward" but simply all it takes is a moment like to remind you that not all is wrong with the world.

[Beyond Borders]

A wallet with id in it?

I would return the wallet and the cash.

[pitt]

Hopefully you guys are really saying the truth and not just trying to sound nice on here, I am keeping my posts 100% real.

I say this because in my experience I never had anything returned to me. In the places I lived, I couldn't even trust my own friends, you lend them something, assume that it is gone or you are going to fight them in order to get it back.

I am really surprised by the answers here, I had a feeling that 99% of people were unloyal. I remember asking one time on this other forum, if they had the opportunity to steal 1 million dollars from their best friend, would they do it?, 95% of the people that answered it said they would steal and find a new best friend, I thought to myself how fucked up they were. I hope some of you that said you would return the money, you wouldn't be able to steal money from your friends too. I would rather keep a wallet from a total stranger then steal from any of my friends.

[Don Juan Tenorio]

I always return purses and wallets and I'll continue doing that. I don't believe in karma, but I do it because it is the right thing to do. Besides it feels good to see the owners' face when they have it back, it's priceless. And it's not only about the money, it's the inconveniences of losing your IDs, credit cards and other personal stuff. Ok, one never knows what situations might bring the future so one can never say never, but at least my wish is to keep being ethic.

On the other hand I don't see the motivation for taking somebody else's money when they know who it belongs to, I just don't see the difference of it with stealing. And for those who steal, if you want to do it, go big, Enron or Madoff style, but don't be cheap and take it from a poor fellow like you. However I could understand that somebody stole if that person is starving (even in our laws we have a concept called "hurto famélico" which is when a person steals food without violence for him and his family because of an extreme case and this of necesity).

I think this also depends on what kind of education you have received in your family. My father told me (and his father told him to him too) that he would rather see me dead that in jail for stealing, it's a matter of honour, but some guys just grew up believing it's acceptable to take things that don't belong to them because they saw it at home.

[Switch]

You can't buy integrity.

[WanderingSoul]

Return it you grimy fuckers.

[Cobra]

(07-11-2014 06:03 PM)Espresso Wrote:  

Well in that case, fair enough. Although then I don't see the need to call it some special word like Karma, which has religious/mystical connotations. What you are describing here is just common sense.

But then you talk about building karma for some other dude just by the act of donating his money to some charity, that he neither approves of nor even aware of. That makes no rational sense -- unless there's something supernatural at play.

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure that I would consider what I do with the money (donating) as karma related. Because I may be going to hell for not returning the money. As I think about it more, maybe I would return the money. But if there was no id, I probably would donate for sure. As far as the guy it belongs to, who knows, he may get bitter or he may get motivated to make more money. I don't think there are mystical forces that control that. But I will say that if he's motivated for example, he is going to get good karma in that he may make fat stacks of cash.

So do I think karma is some religious mystical force? I just think it's a "what goes around comes around" concept that is constantly in play. You don't need a mystical force at play for a douchebag that did nothing in college and made no real connections to struggle a whole lot to get his shit together later in life. That to me is karma. Sure he can win the lottery but that's not karma, that's luck.

Karma to me is also selfless reality. If I did something or avoided something for benefit or retribution, then I can't function as a human being. I just know that I always get my dues (good or bad) depending on what I do. And I think there are universal forces and energy at play which affect this. I believe that energy and faith for example are important components. Yet, as soon as I say faith, people think religion. I for example, have faith in the above belief, not some entity out there that has full control of my life.

I'll say I'm not following a text book definition of karma. It's a concept from eastern philosophy that is used in the Western world. And like a lot of things that are as such, I don't believe a 100% of the concept has transferred in translation because I have lived in both cultures and know that people think VERY differently. Much of that could be cultural as the Eastern cultures are significantly different from western ones.

Maybe I should call this something else instead of karma and call it a day

[Atlantic]

(07-12-2014 05:33 AM)pitt Wrote:  

Hopefully you guys are really saying the truth and not just trying to sound nice on here, I am keeping my posts 100% real.

I believe everyone here is telling the truth. People on this forum in general have an abundance mindset and high self standards/values. I think it would be hard to have respect for yourself if you were always looking to rip people off.

As a young kid I used to steal quite frequently from the shop school. I can tell looking back it was because I was insecure. Its a form of needing external validation to fill an internal void.

Its funny cause from regular people on the outside looking in they would probably think we ('red pill guys') would be most likely to steal. In fact its the insecure guys and people without tight game. They think taking from others is going to raise them up. Its the scarcity mindest/bucket of crabs mindset that they have ingrained.

[Comte De St. Germain]

(07-12-2014 05:33 AM)pitt Wrote:  

Hopefully you guys are really saying the truth and not just trying to sound nice on here, I am keeping my posts 100% real.

I say this because in my experience I never had anything returned to me. In the places I lived, I couldn't even trust my own friends, you lend them something, assume that it is gone or you are going to fight them in order to get it back.

I am really surprised by the answers here, I had a feeling that 99% of people were unloyal. I remember asking one time on this other forum, if they had the opportunity to steal 1 million dollars from their best friend, would they do it?, 95% of the people that answered it said they would steal and find a new best friend, I thought to myself how fucked up they were. I hope some of you that said you would return the money, you wouldn't be able to steal money from your friends too. I would rather keep a wallet from a total stranger then steal from any of my friends.

Stealing from a stranger is something I may do. I'm not even going to lie about that. Stealing from friends or family is just wrong. I consider my friends comrades in arms. It's do or die with my real friends. Even with those I'm feigning friendship with, I'm quite serious and act as if we really were good friends so even stealing from them I find wrong. Stealing from those whom trust you compromises anyone's morals. It's wrong no matter the justification.

[pitt]

(07-12-2014 11:06 AM)hwuzhere Wrote:  

(07-12-2014 05:33 AM)pitt Wrote:  

Hopefully you guys are really saying the truth and not just trying to sound nice on here, I am keeping my posts 100% real.

I say this because in my experience I never had anything returned to me. In the places I lived, I couldn't even trust my own friends, you lend them something, assume that it is gone or you are going to fight them in order to get it back.

I am really surprised by the answers here, I had a feeling that 99% of people were unloyal. I remember asking one time on this other forum, if they had the opportunity to steal 1 million dollars from their best friend, would they do it?, 95% of the people that answered it said they would steal and find a new best friend, I thought to myself how fucked up they were. I hope some of you that said you would return the money, you wouldn't be able to steal money from your friends too. I would rather keep a wallet from a total stranger then steal from any of my friends.

Stealing from a stranger is something I may do. I'm not even going to lie about that. Stealing from friends or family is just wrong. I consider my friends comrades in arms. It's do or die with my real friends. Even with those I'm feigning friendship with, I'm quite serious and act as if we really were good friends so even stealing from them I find wrong. Stealing from those whom trust you compromises anyone's morals. It's wrong no matter the justification.

Stealing is always wrong. It doesn't matter if you are stealing from a stranger or from a friend, stealing is always wrong. However, I don't know why but I don't associate finding a wallet in the streets with stealing. If I knew the person the story would be different but I don't know this person and I find a wallet on the bus or any other public place, that money is going to be mine for sure, unless it was an insignificant amount of cash. If every time I lost something and this was returned to me then my attitude probably would be different.

[roberto]

(07-12-2014 06:38 AM)Switch Wrote:  

You can't buy integrity.

Fucking amen. I'm quite shocked at the number of folk who said they'll keep it. Then again, I grew up in a nice area. If I were London raised I guess I may well have had a different view.

[memcpy]

If I were a business owner I wouldn't hire some people on this board. If someone can be trusted with little then they are more likely to be trusted with lots. What says more about a person who returns $1 than a person who steals $1?

[Atlantic]

(07-11-2014 12:20 PM)Espresso Wrote:  

Do you guys actually believe in "karma"?

Are you only returning the wallet because you are trying to avoid some retribution in the future?

I would return the wallet of course, but not because I'm afraid of some magical force that will come and get me, but because it's a decent thing to do.

Maybe I'm misusing the word so Ill explain what I mean. I think the energy you give out is generally what you get back. If you live you life to certain values and are congruent with yourself it builds a solid inner core. This is translated across to others in body language, tonality and vibe.

Upping my values and living by a strong inner code has done wonders for my inner game. Shit still goes wrong but it doesn't bother me as much. I have an abundance mentality and try not to attach myself to anything external. When you are being dishonest you have to cover your trails and continuously doubt yourself.

Now living by an inner code doesn't mean following others rules or societies. If I can pay less tax then I should, talk my way out of a speeding fine or avoid paying carry on then I am game.

Do I think if I return a phone that I will get mine back when it goes missing? No. My stuff goes missing gets stolen all the time.

Do I like not having to doubt my self happiness and success because I didn't take stuff that didn't belong to me? Yes.

Maybe I am being naïve but I have been both sides I much prefer this side.

[el mechanico]

(07-12-2014 11:35 AM)memcpy Wrote:  

If I were a business owner I wouldn't hire some people on this board. If someone can be trusted with little then they are more likely to be trusted with lots. What says more about a person who returns $1 than a person who steals $1?

Those same people might be the only ones that can make you money.

I just stopped by my work and listened to my guys tell me how a customer ripped them off just now. If I were there no way that would happen.

[Atlantic]

Don't mistake what I said though for a lack of hustling skills though.

(07-12-2014 11:58 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

(07-12-2014 11:35 AM)memcpy Wrote:  

If I were a business owner I wouldn't hire some people on this board. If someone can be trusted with little then they are more likely to be trusted with lots. What says more about a person who returns $1 than a person who steals $1?

Those same people might be the only ones that can make you money.

That definitely true. Jordan Belford is a great example.

[polymath]

(07-12-2014 11:58 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

(07-12-2014 11:35 AM)memcpy Wrote:  

If I were a business owner I wouldn't hire some people on this board. If someone can be trusted with little then they are more likely to be trusted with lots. What says more about a person who returns $1 than a person who steals $1?

Those same people might be the only ones that can make you money.

I call bullshit, in the friendliest way possible. Two reasons.

1) In the long run, they ones who break the law often cause more expensive problems. Look at some of the fines levied on big banks. BNP Paribas just got fined 9 billion dollars for filing false papers to cover up transactions involving Iran, Cuba, Syria, and Sudan. That amount would cover a one-time $48,000 bonus to every single one of BNP Paribas's 185,000 employees. Not only that, their credit rating has seen a downgrade warning due to the steep fine. What are the odds that the guys who made those transactions at BNP Paribas still have jobs there?

2) In many businesses, a lack of integrity will drive clients away. Sometimes this isn't true (Goldman Sachs fucked a lot of people with the Abacus fund, but they're still golden), but I think by and large most businesses lose customers when even a whiff of dishonesty is in the air.

A man can have a killer instinct without sacrificing his integrity.

T. Boone Pickens Wrote:

I learned early on that you play by the rules. It’s no fun if you cheat to win.

[Sam1234]

Return the wallet with all the cash. Taking the money is stealing and is for low-life thieves with no character or self-respect. All thieves should hang.

[Goldin Boy]

I've found about 4 or 5 wallets and I've returned 0 of them.

I don't think morality is absolute...imo life is just a series of random events: An inattentive person dropped a wallet and I found it.

I take the money, shred or sell the ID's (depending on the pictures), and destroy wallet with any cards. It's not stealing if you found it.

I found one in college once. My school's meal plan program use student id's as quasi-debit cards. I found a friend who looked like the guy and we split the meal plan for a week.

Some interesting viewpoints but I don't care about abstract concepts like community, honor, etc. 100 yrs from now when we're dead and life is still going on it won't matter if I was person of integrity (which is a subjective term).

[speakeasy]

(07-12-2014 11:17 PM)Goldin Boy Wrote:  

I've found about 4 or 5 wallets and I've returned 0 of them.

I don't think morality is absolute...imo life is just a series of random events: An inattentive person dropped a wallet and I found it.

I take the money, shred or sell the ID's (depending on the pictures), and destroy wallet with any cards. It's not stealing if you found it.

I found one in college once. My school's meal plan program use student id's as quasi-debit cards. I found a friend who looked like the guy and we split the meal plan for a week.

Some interesting viewpoints but I don't care about abstract concepts like community, honor, etc. 100 yrs from now when we're dead and life is still going on it won't matter if I was person of integrity (which is a subjective term).

Are you a nihilist? Not trying to fuck with you, just curious.