[El Chinito loco]

(07-12-2014 11:58 AM)el mechanico Wrote:  

(07-12-2014 11:35 AM)memcpy Wrote:  

If I were a business owner I wouldn't hire some people on this board. If someone can be trusted with little then they are more likely to be trusted with lots. What says more about a person who returns $1 than a person who steals $1?

Those same people might be the only ones that can make you money.

People like this can be effective as salesmen but you always have to put a leash on them to make sure they aren't skimming or trying to run a con. It's definitely not worth it as a business owner in the long run to have people like this around. It's a huge liability.

[Beyond Borders]

(07-12-2014 05:33 AM)pitt Wrote:  

Hopefully you guys are really saying the truth and not just trying to sound nice on here, I am keeping my posts 100% real.

I say this because in my experience I never had anything returned to me. In the places I lived, I couldn't even trust my own friends, you lend them something, assume that it is gone or you are going to fight them in order to get it back.

I am really surprised by the answers here, I had a feeling that 99% of people were unloyal. I remember asking one time on this other forum, if they had the opportunity to steal 1 million dollars from their best friend, would they do it?, 95% of the people that answered it said they would steal and find a new best friend, I thought to myself how fucked up they were. I hope some of you that said you would return the money, you wouldn't be able to steal money from your friends too. I would rather keep a wallet from a total stranger then steal from any of my friends.

Hell no I wouldn't ever steal from a friend. I mean, I wouldn't steal from a stranger either, but when it comes to friendship, loyalty and integrity are everything.

As far as the stranger thing goes, I did used to steal from strangers and businesses when I was a punk teenager but never from anyone I knew. As I grew older, I developed more integrity (I guess that's what's supposed to happen when you grow up) and stopped.

[Neo]

Difficult question. I wouldn't feel right keeping it and I'd return it because stealing is against my values. If it was a lot of money it would be a difficult decision, but I'd still return it. I earn my own money, and my future income potential is good, there's no reason not to.

I've lost things in situations where never in a million years did I believe I'd get them back.

When I was younger, I lost my cell phone and wallet in a strip club for a while before I realized they were missing (I was drunk on my birthday and my friends were buying drinks for me) I remember reaching into my pockets and they weren't there, I was angry and thought I was screwed. I remember grabbing the stripper next to me and was like 'Fuck I lost my cell and wallet where are they?' Not accusing her, I was just pissed off. The girl actually helped me track it down by retracing where I was in the club and asking the other dancers. Low and behold another one found them and gave them to the bouncer. He asked me a few questions about what they looked like and returned them. No money, CCs, or IDs were missing either.

Never thought I'd get them back, in a strip club of all places.

[Neo]

(07-12-2014 11:17 PM)Goldin Boy Wrote:  

I've found about 4 or 5 wallets and I've returned 0 of them.

I don't think morality is absolute...imo life is just a series of random events: An inattentive person dropped a wallet and I found it.

I take the money, shred or sell the ID's (depending on the pictures), and destroy wallet with any cards. It's not stealing if you found it.

I found one in college once. My school's meal plan program use student id's as quasi-debit cards. I found a friend who looked like the guy and we split the meal plan for a week.

Some interesting viewpoints but I don't care about abstract concepts like community, honor, etc. 100 yrs from now when we're dead and life is still going on it won't matter if I was person of integrity (which is a subjective term).

^

Not hating and to each his own, however my rule is to never associate with people like you in any way, business, friendship, acquaintance, or otherwise.

[Goldin Boy]

Quote:

Are you a nihilist? Not trying to fuck with you, just curious.

Nihilism sums up my belief system to a T but I consider myself an objectivist.

The amount of "return it" answers surprises me and I don't think guys are lying. It all just comes down to how and where people were raised.

I'm from the hood so I know better than to get caught slipping and expect to rely on the kindness of strangers who don't owe me anything.

[Goldin Boy]

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Not hating and to each his own, however my rule is to never associate with people like you in any way, business, friendship, acquaintance, or otherwise.

Fair enough.

But I don't advertise destroying lost wallets to everybody I meet so you would never know unless you saw me do it.

Not offended at all; we've got different belief systems and it is what it is....

[Blaster]

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I take the money, shred or sell the ID's (depending on the pictures), and destroy wallet with any cards.

How hard up for cash do you have to be to destroy someone else's ID and credit cards for a few extra bucks? How much money do you really get out of a wallet anyway? $20? $100? Is it really worth it?

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It's not stealing if you found it.

They earned the money. It was in a wallet owned by them. You knew it was theirs. You could have returned it if you wanted to. You also know that not returning their IDs and cards will be a huge hassle for them. You were simply the first person that happened to come across it. That's stealing by my definition.

(07-12-2014 11:17 PM)Goldin Boy Wrote:  

Some interesting viewpoints but I don't care about abstract concepts like community, honor, etc. 100 yrs from now when we're dead and life is still going on it won't matter if I was person of integrity (which is a subjective term).

Community is not an abstract concept, it's a measurable thing. A community, in this context, is defined as a group of people and a set of standards for interacting with each other. The people are real and the consequences of the actions are real, both discretely and in aggregate.

[Goldin Boy]

Now it's my turn to cherry-pick your post:

Quote:

How hard up for cash do you have to be to destroy someone else's ID and credit cards for a few extra bucks? How much money do you really get out of a wallet anyway? $20? $100? Is it really worth it?

Subliminal remarks about my income notwithstanding, who said it was about the money? Losing something of value is that person's issue, not mine.

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It was in a wallet owned by them. You knew it was theirs. You could have returned it if you wanted to.

Bolded for emphasis. So now the burden is on me to jump through hoops for a perfect stranger who can't keep track of the own belongings? It's a hassle for me to track down and contact them.

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You were simply the first person that happened to come across it.

I agree, the universe is random.

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That's stealing by my definition.

That's not my definition of stealing. I didn't go in their pocket and take it. Also as I was never caught there were no consequences. Actions don't have an absolute moral value imo, they lost something, I found it, nothing more.

Quote:

You also know that not returning their IDs and cards will be a huge hassle for them.

My dmv lets ppl order replacements online. That's no hassle.

Quote:

Community is not an abstract concept, it's a measurable thing. A community, in this context, is defined as a group of people and a set of standards for interacting with each other. The people are real and the consequences of the actions are real, both discretely and in aggregate.

How do you quantify community? It's just people living in the close proximity. That doesn't imply shared values or beliefs to me.

Following the norms and standards guarantees me nothing but a life as a cog in a machine. No one gets ahead, keeping their head down and following the rules but I don't think you're concerned with that (no offense).

We're gonna have to agree to disagree...I get your perspective and why you disagree and think you're superior to me but I'm just not concerned with the success of greater group that doesn't guarantee commensurate success to me on an individual level.

[roberto]

(07-13-2014 09:11 AM)Neo Wrote:  

(07-12-2014 11:17 PM)Goldin Boy Wrote:  

I've found about 4 or 5 wallets and I've returned 0 of them.

I don't think morality is absolute...imo life is just a series of random events: An inattentive person dropped a wallet and I found it.

I take the money, shred or sell the ID's (depending on the pictures), and destroy wallet with any cards. It's not stealing if you found it.

I found one in college once. My school's meal plan program use student id's as quasi-debit cards. I found a friend who looked like the guy and we split the meal plan for a week.

Some interesting viewpoints but I don't care about abstract concepts like community, honor, etc. 100 yrs from now when we're dead and life is still going on it won't matter if I was person of integrity (which is a subjective term).

^

Not hating and to each his own, however my rule is to never associate with people like you in any way, business, friendship, acquaintance, or otherwise.

(07-13-2014 09:17 AM)Goldin Boy Wrote:  

But I don't advertise destroying lost wallets to everybody I meet so you would never know unless you saw me do it.

Neo is on point in my book.

I might not be aware that you steal from and then destroy lost wallets but other aspects of your character would be on show in some form, allowing me to implement my rule which is uncannily similar to Neo's.

You become the sum total of those with whom you associate- this is often stated, and in my belief never overstated- it is so true. I have no wish to be a thief.

Genuinely not hating however, as I mentioned earlier we get dealt cards in life when we are born, which change the way we view this world.

[HonantheBarbarian]

I don't agree with goldin boy, but he brings up some valid points.

[speakeasy]

I found a wallet while I was riding a bike. It had no money in it, but a student ID and some credit cards. There was no contact number to be found. I simply punched in his name on Facebook and found him. Sent him a message letting him know I found his wallet. Done. No big hassle.

[Matt3B]

I believe in karma, and would return it, yeah.

Found someone's phone in the back of a taxi once when I was in Dubai so me and my mate scanned it all. The dude had loads of numbers of whores, and I mean loads. At least 40 or 50 numbers.

We called a few of them and they were ALL Asian.

So we rang one of the normal looking numbers who appeared to be a friend judging by the text messages, and we got the guy to come round and collect his phone. He turned up looking all sheepish, with big teeth, hamster cheeks and one of those really shit pube beards. I'd say mid to late 20s, from England. Kind of had a Paul Giamatti look about him.

Anyway, he had the social skills of a stone and I wasn't sure if his sheepishness was because he was such a loser, or because he was really hoping we didn't go through his contact list.

[wi30]

(07-12-2014 05:33 AM)pitt Wrote:  

Hopefully you guys are really saying the truth and not just trying to sound nice on here, I am keeping my posts 100% real.

I say this because in my experience I never had anything returned to me. In the places I lived, I couldn't even trust my own friends, you lend them something, assume that it is gone or you are going to fight them in order to get it back.

I am really surprised by the answers here, I had a feeling that 99% of people were unloyal. I remember asking one time on this other forum, if they had the opportunity to steal 1 million dollars from their best friend, would they do it?, 95% of the people that answered it said they would steal and find a new best friend, I thought to myself how fucked up they were. I hope some of you that said you would return the money, you wouldn't be able to steal money from your friends too. I would rather keep a wallet from a total stranger then steal from any of my friends.

All a man has is his word.

I keep my wallet on the counter when I'm at home. It usually has around $100 and a couple credit/debit cards inside. I know that anyone I invite into my house would never consider touching it, even if I'm not in the room.

I also used to work as a delivery driver. When my boss would mess up the cash out and give me $1 more, I gave it back. If they overpaid me $20, I gave it back.

The devil on my shoulder said, "Hey, free money", but my integrity is worth a lot more than that.

[CaP7]

I found a wallet on a public picnic bench at the swap meet in San Diego. I had been unemployed for over a year (sort of by choice) and I had set up a booth to sell some of my things I no longer needed.

The wallet had about $300.00 in it, along with 5-7 credit cards, ID...the works. One of the credit cards was a company card where the guy worked, evidently in some sort of construction job. No phone number anywhere.

Now, I was unemployed, had a ton of free time, it was a random Thursday night in the summer, and a part of me was just curious. You never know if the guy has a hot daughter or something...so, I drove 12 miles to his house and knocked on the door.

The neighborhood wasn't the greatest, but it' was early evening, not yet dark, so I didn't think too much of it. When I knocked on the door, there was no answer, so I went back to my car to write the guy a note with my phone number on it. The second time I knocked, an 11 year old boy opens the door wide open and is just standing there. He was playing video games with his friend in the background.

I asked him if his Dad lived there. The boy said that he did, but that his parents were at the store. I asked him if anyone else was there I could talk to. He said no. I told the boy. Take this note with my number on it, lock your door, call your dad right now, and don't ever answer the door again unless your parents are home.

I went to go run an errand at Wal-mart, and within 5 minutes, my phone rings with the Dad on the line. I simply said, I have your wallet, meet me at Wal-mart in 20 minutes.

When I met up with the Dad, he matched the ID on the license. He was almost in tears. He said that the $300.00 was work money to pay someone, and that he would have been fired if he had to tell his boss that he lost it, along with the corporate credit card. He tried to give me $20.00 as a reward, but I didn't take it and instead told him that if he wanted to reward me, to spend some more time with his son and also teach him not to open doors to strangers when he can't defend himself.

I'd like to think that I made a difference in that man's life that night, and I felt good about it at the time. But, at the end of the day, I would bet that the man made some other stupid mistake at work, and was fired a month later.

I forgot my ID on a Friday night, and had to go all the way back home to retrieve it, ONE time in my entire life. I learned my lesson after that and it never happened again because its a pain in the ass to go home to retrieve your ID when your friends are all out partying without you. Some could say that I did the right thing by giving the man his money back, but you could also say that I did him a disservice, by postponing a life lesson that he needed to learn in order to improve.

At the end of the day, I personally would have felt like a dirtbag spending someone else's cash.

[JWLZG]

I've lost my wallet twice within the same year. My first university was in a rather shady part of town and I had stupidly left my backpack unattended in a corridor to do some printing -- it had my wallet and keys. Went back, found it missing. I ended up informing my lecturer, campus security, and the police.
Upon calling to cancel my bank/debit cards, I was told someone had made an unsuccessful purchase with it. Turned up at that place (a ghetto clothing shop in the same suburb...go figure) but received bugger all information on the culprits.
Couple of weeks later, I got a call from the local police. Turns out someone found half my wallet's cards chucked into a bush nearby. The rest of the backpack -- let alone the wallet itself with AUD$15 cash -- was found. Surprisingly my licence wasn't among the stolen cards.

Second time was at McDonalds' drive-through after a night out. I spent a day looking for it before deciding to head back there. Turns out the manager looked me up and sent me a message on Facebook that didn't go into my main inbox. Confirmed my ID and handed it over. Everything was intact this time; and even though there wasn't much, I regretted not giving him something -- probably would've been unprofessional to accept $ from me anyway.

Myself? I've handed in IDs left behind by customers twice. Nothing on the scale of a wallet full of cash. I'd probably look up the owner, but return it anyway. Who they are really doesn't mean anything -- the $500 in the wallet might be all they have in the world or a work budget like in Cap7's story.
Having faced both scenarios above, I think that returning a wallet says more about the finder than the owner whatever the outcome might be. It's definitely not up to the finder to teach the owner a lesson.

I also think some people here are understanding karma on different levels of simplicity. Karma shouldn't be taken as deeds debited from your life in return for good deeds credited towards you in return. I'm reminded of learning about Kohlberg's levels of moral development whereby people in the first few stages do what they do on a basis of reward and punishment or "what's in it for me". I suppose you could peg karma along those stages too, although IMO seeing it as a magic force that begets good and bad deeds in kind is rather misguided.

[Beyond Borders]

Out of curiosity, for those of you who would not return the wallet, cash intact, would you:

a) Stop to pick up someone walking with a gas can in hand?
b) Stop to help someone broken down in their car?
c) Ever pick up a hitchiker?
d) Go out of your way to return a lost phone?
e) Jump in the water to save a drowning person?
f) Assist someone who was getting mugged or jumped by multiple people?
g) Jump to action to help someone hurt or injured (assuming there was no danger to you), say, in a car wreck or some other type of accident?

And were you raised in an urban, suburban, or rural area?

(07-13-2014 05:15 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

I found a wallet while I was riding a bike. It had no money in it, but a student ID and some credit cards. There was no contact number to be found. I simply punched in his name on Facebook and found him. Sent him a message letting him know I found his wallet. Done. No big hassle.

I hunted down the owner of a wallet the same exact way once in Thailand. Quick Facebook search. He swung through to pick it up, bought me dinner and a few beers and we shot the shit.

[pitt]

(07-14-2014 02:51 AM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

Out of curiosity, for those of you who would not return the wallet, cash intact, would you:

a) Stop to pick up someone walking with a gas can in hand?
b) Stop to help someone broken down in their car?
c) Ever pick up a hitchiker?
d) Go out of your way to return a lost phone?
e) Jump in the water to save a drowning person?
f) Assist someone who was getting mugged or jumped by multiple people?
g) Jump to action to help someone hurt or injured (assuming there was no danger to you), say, in a car wreck or some other type of accident?

And were you raised in an urban, suburban, or rural area?

(07-13-2014 05:15 PM)speakeasy Wrote:  

I found a wallet while I was riding a bike. It had no money in it, but a student ID and some credit cards. There was no contact number to be found. I simply punched in his name on Facebook and found him. Sent him a message letting him know I found his wallet. Done. No big hassle.

I hunted down the owner of a wallet the same exact way once in Thailand. Quick Facebook search. He swung through to pick it up, bought me dinner and a few beers and we shot the shit.

a) No
b) Probably not
c) No. I will only do it if it is a really hot woman, otherwise I would assume that it is a set up.
d) No. If the phone has no value for me, I would just tell the owner to come pick it up, if it is a really nice phone, I would probably just keep it. I never had none of my phones returned to me, why would I do it.
e) I can't swim so you know the answer lol. If I could swim, yes I would probably help.
f) Actually I did this one time in a DR police cell (I got arrested for no carrying an ID by the way). I probably wouldn't do it again because the guys there tried to jump on me for getting involved. This is really putting yourself at risk.
g) Yeah I would probably do it

I lived both in urban and suburban areas.

[Wayout]

I also found a wallet once while traveling in Germany!
I was sitting on a bench in a city square - enjoying the weather,watching people...when I saw a black wallet laying at the end of the bench!
I picked it up,opened it and the first thing I noticed was a drivers license of a girl. I examined the picture and the information on the license. She was attractive and in mid 20's. There was around 150 Eur in cash and some plastic as well.
I set there and thought what to do for a moment.The weather was gorgeous, I was all alone in the city and I felt I could use a friend My imagination was running wild painting the picture of the attractive girl thanking me for returning her wallet, perhaps inviting me out to show her city,maybe introducing me to some friends - possibilities were endless...
I had a smartphone on me with internet access ( I always get a local sim card when I travel) - so I found the girl on Facebook and shot a short message : Hi..I found your wallet,I am in the park...come out and pick it up. Here's my number.
Five minutes later the girl called me -we spoke in English as my German was shit - and she said she will come in 15-20 min. She sounded kind of rude on the phone and her English was pretty bad too.
Anyways...25 min later I see a couple ( a guy and a girl) ,they seem to be looking for someone. The girl came with her boyfriend...The saw me and I gave them the wallet all happy. She opened it and said there was more money in it! She said she was sure she had at least 50-100 Eur more in it! She kind of looked pissed and looking at me sort of expecting me to pull out another 50 from my pocket!
I appealed to the guy to use his logic and explained if I wanted to steal her money I would have taken it all without any risk! Why would I call her and take only a 50? He relayed the information to the stupid bitch...but they were still looking at me like I was the thief!
At this point I got pissed and told them I got nothing else to tell them...and walked away!
So you never know how things turn out...

[pitt]

(07-14-2014 07:22 AM)Wayout Wrote:  

I also found a wallet once while traveling in Germany!
I was sitting on a bench in a city square - enjoying the weather,watching people...when I saw a black wallet laying at the end of the bench!
I picked it up,opened it and the first thing I noticed was a drivers license of a girl. I examined the picture and the information on the license. She was attractive and in mid 20's. There was around 150 Eur in cash and some plastic as well.
I set there and thought what to do for a moment.The weather was gorgeous, I was all alone in the city and I felt I could use a friend My imagination was running wild painting the picture of the attractive girl thanking me for returning her wallet, perhaps inviting me out to show her city,maybe introducing me to some friends - possibilities were endless...
I had a smartphone on me with internet access ( I always get a local sim card when I travel) - so I found the girl on Facebook and shot a short message : Hi..I found your wallet,I am in the park...come out and pick it up. Here's my number.
Five minutes later the girl called me -we spoke in English as my German was shit - and she said she will come in 15-20 min. She sounded kind of rude on the phone and her English was pretty bad too.
Anyways...25 min later I see a couple ( a guy and a girl) ,they seem to be looking for someone. The girl came with her boyfriend...The saw me and I gave them the wallet all happy. She opened it and said there was more money in it! She said she was sure she had at least 50-100 Eur more in it! She kind of looked pissed and looking at me sort of expecting me to pull out another 50 from my pocket!
I appealed to the guy to use his logic and explained if I wanted to steal her money I would have taken it all without any risk! Why would I call her and take only a 50? He relayed the information to the stupid bitch...but they were still looking at me like I was the thief!
At this point I got pissed and told them I got nothing else to tell them...and walked away!
So you never know how things turn out...

Another reason to never return. I would be so pissed at myself If i were to return 10.000 euros to an ungrateful person, I would feel like the biggest idiot for the rest of my life.

[Handsome Creepy Eel]

Wow, incredibly rude people from Wayout's story. Sadly, you never know how it's going to end when you make the decision.

[Glaucon]

no.

I can use the cash myself. If you lost it, sucks for you.

[TigerMandingo]

Props to Goldin Boy for bringin up some great points.

Oh, and no WNR. would not return

[Wayout]

(07-14-2014 07:35 AM)Handsome Creepy Eel Wrote:  

Wow, incredibly rude people from Wayout's story. Sadly, you never know how it's going to end when you make the decision.

This one negative experience stood out in my mind for many years....So I would say it's an outlier. I remember the look on the guys face- like he totally understood what I was saying but he had to take the side of his girlfriend...
I have since returned smartphones, lost IDs...wallets with credit cards - but I am fuzzy on details...all neutral experiences. I was offered rewards...like 20 bucks...but I would always say "do the same for the next person!".

[Blaster]

Quote:

Losing something of value is that person's issue, not mine.

This value, as it spreads, will reduce trust in the community. You don't even have to personally advocate the value. Word gets around that property rights for pocket-sized objects don't extend beyond your immediate person, people will adjust their behavior accordingly.

Consider a gym locker room. In a low-trust gym, everyone has to buy a lock and secure their locker while they're working out. In a high-trust gym, no one has to waste money on locks because risk of theft is low. This environment is ripe for an opportunist who does not share the values of the other members. "Not securing something of value is that person's issue, not mine." But it won't stay a high-trust gym for very long once valuables start getting pilfered and the community can't find and expel those who are to blame. Members will have to all go buy locks for their lockers and fix them securely every time they use the gym.

There's a question where the line is drawn, of course. Unattended lockers versus unattended space on a public sidewalk. But the principle is the same.

Quote:

My dmv lets ppl order replacements online

Most people have more cards than just their license. They have to replace all their credit cards, access cards, and whatever else they might keep in their wallet. At least one of the cards in my wallet carries a $10 fee for replacing.

Quote:

Quote:

Community is not an abstract concept, it's a measurable thing. A community, in this context, is defined as a group of people and a set of standards for interacting with each other. The people are real and the consequences of the actions are real, both discretely and in aggregate.

How do you quantify community? It's just people living in the close proximity. That doesn't imply shared values or beliefs to me.

What I mean by community is a group of people who interact with each other and share a set of behavioral standards. The Rooshv forum is a community and it is real, not abstract. You can enumerate a list of users. You can read the rules to see the official behavior standards and you can read threads infer the unwritten behavioral standards. I used the gym as an example earlier. The membership of a gym is a community. Similarly, there are usually published, enforced rules as well as unwritten rules inferred socially.

Quote:

Following the norms and standards guarantees me nothing but a life as a cog in a machine. No one gets ahead, keeping their head down and following the rules but I don't think you're concerned with that (no offense).

This is why I asked the question about money earlier. I trust you're not really "getting ahead" by that much pocketing money from wallets you find on the ground. So why are you doing it?

I'm not saying you should follow every community's standards; it's hard to believe anyone posting on this forum hasn't violated their community's expected behavior at one time or another. But it's important to recognize what those standards are and the implications of violating them.

Quote:

think you're superior to me

I'm challenging you to re-evaluate your personal code. Whether I believe myself superior is not really relevant.

[el mechanico]

Quote:

Wow, incredibly rude people from Wayout's story

WPIF (would punch in face)

Like I said before some people just have this sense of entitlement. Giving back something you found is a favor. You don't see creepy metal detector guy posting ads on Craigslist trying to give away the Rolex he found at the beach.

If you read my last post. Negotiate. Especially when you hold the cards. Your average dick does not value your time or honesty. I've seen it a million times.