[Que enspastic]

Iraq is in absolute turmoil.


Its borders are increasingly fictitious with the rise of the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIS). This organisation is an al-Qaeda offshoot comprised of 10,000 fighters and last week it seized Mosul and Tikrit. This week it is threatening Baghdad.


Of course, a bit of background helps to place current events into context. Iraq as a nation state is a joke. It traces its legacy to the downfall of the Ottoman Empire post-WWI, after which The League of Nations ran a knife through the Middle East in 1920 with the Treaty of Sèvres.


Iraq was placed under the control of the United Kingdom, gaining its independence in 1932, and later transitioning from Kingdom to Republic. Its boundaries were not demarcated to reflect a singular sense of nationhood - rather it was a haphazardly constructed state that wedded together Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds, among other ethnic groups, in a marriage not of their choosing.


The United States, the UK et al invaded Iraq in 2003, overthrew and later executed the Baath Sunni Iraqi dictator President Sadaam Hussein. Taking out the authoritarian strongman who held Iraq together with an iron fist created a power vacuum that allowed ethnic tensions to boil over and militancy to spread. The Coalition practically withdrew all its troops by 2011, leaving Iraq to fend for itself.


Unsurprisingly, and true to the predictions of many academics and specialists in Middle East politics, Iraq is now a plaything between regional powers, radical Islamist terrorist groups, and disparate sectarian groups. 'National unity' is a pipe-dream. There is no glue to hold it all together.


ISIS is supported by the Baathist officers of Sadamn's old regime. The Shia Prime Minister Nouri Maliki holds little political legitimacy in the eyes of Sunni minorities.The Iraqi Kurds are breaking away to join the semi-autonomous region of Kurdistan, with the promise of vast oil wealth on the horizon.


Invading Iraq was the greatest strategic mistake in Western foreign policy since Vietnam. No WMDs were found, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis are dead as result (and over 4000+ Coalition troops), the neo-con's democratic experiment in the Middle East has been revealed as madness, and the threat posed by radical Islamists has never been greater. There are now scores of radicalised British citizens fighting in the rank and file of the ISIS which the UK Government rightly identifies as a hugely significant threat to national security.


The US and its allies will have to attempt to clean up this mess but how exactly remains to be seen. Suffice to say, there is no going back for Iraq. It will be bloody and chaotic for years to come (alongside its next door neighbour Syria), and we may eventually see it partitioned, a final deathblow to the arbitrary borders that have undermined its conception of a unified nationhood since its creaion.


Here's the BBC scoop: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27894395

[draguer]

I won't pretend I know enough about this to debate it but I can't pass up putting this here

[Patriarch]

Not to derail the thread, but I've always been curious what the world's borders would look like today without European colonialism. I saw a map of Africa before the second wave of colonization, and it looks radically different than today, with dozens more "nations."

What's the response from the White House on Iraq?

[samsamsam]

Sweat Pea,

Response is cautious. McCain, as always, wants to send troops and fight over stuff he doesn't fully understand. The designers of the original war are back on TV acting as if they did nothing wrong and offering more useless advice. Obama is studying the matter. Some rumors say he may ask Congress to vote on action. I think that would be political to point out the fools prior to the 2014 elections.

Some military has been sent to the Embassy and The USS George H Bush - Aircraft Carrier named after the smarter Bush has been sent closer.

Before anyone jumps on why the US left, the US was unable to secure a status of forces agreement which provides US servicemen protections. This agreement exists wherever US personnel are serving (from what I understand).

Quote:

As reported on Saturday, October 15, 2011, the Obama Administration proceeded with the plan to withdraw American forces from Iraq (barring some last-minute move in the Iraqi parliament when they returned from a break in late November 2011 shortly before the end-of-the-year withdrawal date) because of concerns that they would not have be given immunity from Iraqi courts, a concern for American commanders in the field who also had to worry about the Sadrist response should troops stay and the general state of Iraq's readiness for transfer of power

Also, before any misinformation is circulated Bush signed an agreement to have US forces withdraw Iraq by the end of 2011.

Though Wikipedia can be tampered with - it leans towards facts. See them here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.%E2%80%..._Agreement

Let's be honest Bush went for a unfunded war for oil and now he is quietly painting. Leave it to the adults to have to clean it up. Though deaths have been fewer than other conflicts due to tremendous medical advancements, some of the men and women who survived have a very difficult quality of life.

[Tuthmosis]

Relevant:

[samsamsam]

Tuth that is awesome.

[The PerSev]

(06-17-2014 07:30 PM)samsamsam Wrote:  

Obama is studying the matter. Some rumors say he may ask Congress to vote on action.

That's rich. If I'm not mistaken Congress hasn't had a say in America's wars for quite some time - despite the fact that that's, you know, against the Constitution and stuff.

Now that this clusterfuck is blowing up in everyone's face, Congress should suddenly handle it.

[samsamsam]

^^ Yes, but president's have circumvented it in the past. It is only rumored. I don't believe he wants action on that scale but if all the Republicans keep pushing for it, he might do it to make them look like idiots. I doubt it would pass but it would be interesting to see who will vote for action. I have deep respect for McCain for the patriot he has been and he got fucked by some dirty politics in 2000. But he is going off the deep end right now with wanting military action.

I don't think Obama has any interest in spilling any more American blood on a mistake.

[Tex Pro]

[TheBulldozer]

Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds want to live without these preordained modern borders.

[Brian Boru]

This is our Syria policy biting us in the ass.

It is interesting though to see how Iran is offering full cooperation to combat the ISIS, something several authors have predicted for a long time; Trita Parsi, Flynt Leverett, or Robert Baer for example. Iran and the US have a common interest in combating global Jihadism.

[Christian McQueen]

delete

[Christian McQueen]

(06-17-2014 08:11 PM)The Texas Prophet Wrote:  

WTF

[Travesty]

How don't these videos have millions of views?

Any objections I had to gun control are now gone. I'm fine with one psycho like Rodgers sneaking past, still much better than having a citizenry that can't defend itself.

I also question if the Iraqi Shia know ISIS all hate them why don't the
Shia all carry their own weapons everywhere, I guess it is tough to get their hands on?

[void]

religion + politics = war

[tomtud]

If the US sends in troops today, who is to say that the situation today won't happen in a few years when they leave. So, either you kill all the Sunnis which will not happen or you forget that country exists and move forward.

Too many countries are manipulating in the affairs of Iraq.

As for gun control, if I was living in Iraq, I would have a gun. If I was living in Japan, no.

Killing people is not going to solve the Iraq issue. These are brainwashed individuals doing this. Any religion that threatens its members if they dare leave or criticize it should be considered a hate group and banned. From the Christian cults in Utah, Texas etc to Islam. Sadly, it's brainwashed Sunnis doing this. Killing innocent people and terrorizing towns. Unacceptable!

Iraq veterans, I feel for y'all. All that work and to have this? Unacceptable.

[Faust]

Are there still people who honestly want to send troops into Iraq at this point? Beyond Obama, who doesn't want it falling apart on his watch. Anyone? Is anybody here going to stand up and say sending troops in is a good idea?

It's been 11 years since the invasion. They're their own country now, and they need to solve their own problems. If they can't, well, sucks to be them.

[El Chinito loco]

Do you keep betting more after you slide most of your chips into an absurd hand and lose most of it because you don't understand how the game of poker is played?

[Sawyer]

They're trying to kickstart WW3 before native white civil backlash threatens the NWO in western countries.

It wasn't us! Really! It was THEM!

Albert Pike, 8/15/1871

"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."

Debunk this stuff all you want. You can't argue with the fact that it's happening.

[Dr. Howard]

My brain...its surreal seeing people in civilian clothing and vehicles in those videos.

[boycottamericanwomen]

It's Sunnis re-drawing national lines according to their ethnic culture and religion. It was the British who created such artificial borders in the first place. I don't see how this is a bad thing, a culture, race, religion re-balancing itself along more natural lines?

[Dr. Howard]

(06-17-2014 09:39 PM)Sawyer Wrote:  

They're trying to kickstart WW3 before native white civil backlash threatens the NWO in western countries.

It wasn't us! Really! It was THEM!

Albert Pike, 8/15/1871

"The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the "agentur" of the "Illuminati" between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time."

Debunk this stuff all you want. You can't argue with the fact that it's happening.

ah, i don't know. The events of the iranian revolution and iran/iraq war also fall in line with that prediction and the world didn't collapse

[vinman]

There may never be peace in the middle east or Muslim countries because they are extremely tribal. "Me against my brothers, me and my brothers against my cousins, me and my brother and my cousins against the world". It's all about tribal and family allegiances. A perfect example is Afghanistan. The Pashtun extend from eastern Iran into Afghanistan, and western Pakistan. They consider themselves to be Pashtun, and not Afghans, Pakistanis, or Iranians. These are not people that have bought into the idea that they are a united people with a united culture.

   

[Ingocnito]

(06-17-2014 07:36 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

Relevant:

This meme depicts precisely how I've described to fellow Americans, the administration's actual response. The reasons given for going to war were silly. The actual reasons were understandable but not exactly humane.

My bro in law is Lebanese and travels around the middle east frequently. His take - as a right-wing supporter mind you - is that the the U.S. has been pupeteering Iran and Iraq since the late 70's.. and there were WMDs containing materials with US AND Russian markings in Iraq that would have been discovered had the UN officials been allowed to get in to investigate right away.. thus the month or so delay and UN officials find nothing.

He also said most people in the middle east in the know would support that statement, AND that in fact, Al Quida's strength was in Iraq and not so much Afghanistan or Pakistan. << Not sure if I believe all that, but just his perspective.

Our tax dollars doing quality work as usual. Howabout a few more million GM autos recalled for problems. Hurraah for the bail outs as well. What a mess, predictable as hell at that.

[cool]

You wouldn't believe how bored soldiers are garrisoned in the USA. The country is war weary but service members are not. I work with many guys who would love to go back to Iraq and fuck shit up even though it wouldn't amount to anything.

Garrison is so fucking stupid and petty that your average soldier is pissed off 24/7.

Let us loose on ISIS.