[draguer]

For us newer guys it's good to see this debate play out.

It makes you think -with varied interpretations of something that has played out in the past 7 or so years, how much of what we take as gospel in the history books is open to challenge?

[Dagonet]

Tuth, tons of blue pill guys I know read The Game. It's a piece of pop entertainment. If we're talking about Mystery, yes it was an important cultural event that influnced the Manosphere. But kind of in the same way feminism influenced the Manosphere.

There is not a direct connection between The Game and the Manosphere. They are culturally related, both being birthed from the same time and place. The Mystery Method was a footnote on Manosphere blogs. Kind of like "Hey, I actually read the Mystery Method and it's pretty interesting!" I guess you can debate how much Roissy was influenced by Mystery, but I suspect not much, since his scope was much wider.

[___]

This is funny.

I was around back in late '07/early '08 to see this whole thing form as well; actually found Roosh through an early G Manifesto post, then noticed an interesting character in Roosh's comment section who typed in all lower case for effect...the rest is history. Can definitely say that Roissy had the most profound impact out of everyone I read - even if I don't fully agree w/ the direction he eventually took.

By the way, the term "manosphere" was coined by one of the authors of the now defunct 2Blowhards website...still can't stand that word.

[MikeCF]

Here's how significant Roissy is.

I was going to set up a meet-up in D.C.

As I was walking around with a friend picking places, we stopped by Saint-Rx (I think that's what it's called).

"This is where it all started?"

What do you mean?

"Roissy, Roosh...This is the bar they all operated out of. This is where most of Roissy's stories came from."

That's how deep Roissy's roots flow.

The dude is like the Hemingway of the manosphere.

[cardguy]

I wanna give a shout out to Roissy (or whatever his name is now).

Whether he was the first is not really the issue. I think the real issue is that being exposed to his writing had a bigger impact on most guys than any other writer.

However you look at the manosphere - All Roads Lead to Roissy. Like many others - he got me hooked on the manosphere - ironically after Tyler Cowan refused to link to him because he was "evil".

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalre...ty-li.html

Thanks to the post from Tyler - I know the exact day I discovered the manosphere - June 4th, 2008.

How much older does the manosphere go back than that?

Am I old school? Or a newbie?

[Samseau]

(06-02-2014 05:22 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

(06-02-2014 04:58 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

Who was more foundational?

Like it or not:

Absolutely. The Mystery Method and Neil Struass' promotion of The Game was essential.

Roissy talks about Mystery like he's a God, too.

Like I said, Roissy is the Voltaire of the manosphere - Voltaire never came up with ideas of his own, he just repackaged them into a more coherent format with his own intellectual seasoning.

Roissy owed a great debt to the Mystery Method, as does Roosh.

There is no denying the Genius of the Mystery Method, however, Mystery did not provide the cultural analysis that Roissy did.

Also Roissy provided his own unique take on Game via "Asshole Game."

[MikeCF]

(06-02-2014 05:30 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

I wanna give a shout out for Roissy (or whatever his name is now).

Whether he was the first is not really the issue. I think the real issue is that being exposed to his writing had a bigger impact on most guys than any other writer.

However you look at the manosphere - All Roads Lead to Roissy. Like many others - he got me hooked on the manosphere - ironically after Tyler Cowan refused to link to him because he was "evil".

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalre...ty-li.html

Yep. I noted the same thing here. We all remember that..."where pretty lies perish."

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-36585-...#pid743125

[Tuthmosis]

At the end of the day, I think this discussion is less about Roissy than it is about the foundations of the Manosphere.

We have to ask ourselves one question:

Is "game" more foundational to the Manosphere than politics, a very particular reading of evolution, and female nature is?

I'd argue that game 1.0 (culminating from the various "lay guides" into Neil Strauss's book The Game) put more initial asses in the seats than anything else. Without game, you don't have all this other stuff. Hence, the game communities of the late 1990s are more foundational. Long after Roissy has faded into obscurity, the point of view represented by that book--as much as me may ridicule it today--still brings people to this world. Meanwhile, guys who have been here all along (like Roosh) have continued to innovate and add elements to that initial germ.

Roissy is a guy who came in with that second batch of guys. He made his contributions and extricated himself from the world--for various reasons well known around the community. He didn't deliver the gospel and ascend to heaven. He threw in some valuable ideas and then became something else.

Let's just keep it in perspective.

[Samseau]

I would say there are three main components to the manosphere:

1. Pick-up (Mystery Method)
2. Self-improvement (Pook @ SoSuave)
3. Cultural criticism (Bonecrackr)

Roissy blended them all together into a single format and shaped all future discourse around it. He is the Voltaire.

[Giovonny]

Don't forget these pioneers!

1975:



1967:



2 A.D



1532:



1955:



1978:



also,

Gengis Khan
Marco Polo
Henry VII
Caligulia
etc.
etc.

Maybe this stuff doesn't count because its pre -internet???

But, as far as what it means to be a man and how to get girls..???

Men gave been discussing it for many, many centuries.

*****

Quote:

Roissy is the Aristotle of the manosphere.

I think Aristotle is the "Aristotle" of the manosphere if you know what I mean..

Quote:

Roissy as the Voltaire of the manosphere.

And, Voltaire is the "Voltaire" of the manosphere!

[xpatplayer]

I first read Roosh in early 2012. This was when his writings started taking a distinctly critical tone. I read a few of his posts and some of Roissy's 16 commandments. I didn't re-read any manosphere posts until October 2013. Judging the difference in tone I've seen in Roosh's writing alone, I'd say Roissy's influence has been critical. It has allowed the Game community to branch out.

[MikeCF]

(06-02-2014 05:33 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

At the end of the day, I think this discussion is less about Roissy than it is about the foundations of the Manosphere.

We have to ask ourselves one question:

Is "game" more foundational to the Manosphere than politics, a very particular reading of evolution, and female nature is?

You're an analytical guy and I'm enjoying this discussion.

The Game was a work of fiction about getting laid using nonsense tactics and crap.

The manosphere is a movement.

It's separate and distinct from game.

Game was about PUA.

The manosphere was about meeting women and also recognizing the political environment we live in.

Manosphere men hate PUA people and will tell you that they are not PUA.

The post-manosphere era has been guys like me who began advocating "lifestyle game," that is, building yourself up as a man while having a realistic understand of Western dating.

The Game has as much to do with Roissy and the manosphere as Tucker Max.

I have evolved and moved past Roissy.

But to the extent I can trace my develop on these issues back to anyone, it's to Roissy.

[cardguy]

What about GBFM? He is the Yin to Roissy's Yang.

"alpha fucks and beta bux" - the red pill in 5 words.

[MikeCF]

Anyhow, it's been fun. Back to my writing projects.

I'll be curious to hear Roosh's take on this.

Always a pleasure, gents. Talk to you soon.

[Tuthmosis]

(06-02-2014 05:38 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

You're an analytical guy and I'm enjoying this discussion.

(Me too, actually.)

(06-02-2014 05:38 PM)MikeCF Wrote:  

The Game was a work of fiction about getting laid using nonsense tactics and crap.

The manosphere is a movement.

It's separate and distinct from game.

Game was about PUA.

The manosphere was about meeting women and also recognizing the political environment we live in.

Manosphere men hate PUA people and will tell you that they are not PUA.

The post-manosphere era has been guys like me who began advocating "lifestyle game" three years ago, that is, building yourself up as a man while having a realistic understand of Western dating.

The Game has as much to do with Roissy and the manosphere as Tucker Max.

This type of genealogy is what I'm calling for--though I disagree with your dismissal of The Game and the significance of game. The book is less important than the branch it represented. Those "game guys" told men that men could adapt themselves to their environment and improve their prospects with women. It was ground-breaking in telling men how to short-circuit female instinct--peacocking, pushing-and-pulling, and of those other well-traveled concepts. In that sense, they introduced biology and evolutionary psych before any of the subsequent writers.

In whatever case, our genealogy should be nuanced and careful about placing the various branches in their context. Of course, a bunch of white-knight feminists may come in and scramble our craftsmanship, but it should still be well done.

My concern is that we place Roissy in the right context. First of all--and we're all agreeing about this--we need to make a clear distinction between pre-2009 Roissy and present-day Chateau Heartiste. That could be done in a part of a sentence, but it's vital.

A second distinction--about which we're agreeing less--is about placing his importance relative to whole Manosphere. I'd say we exercise caution, granting him a not insignificant role in introducing, and popularizing, certain concepts, but not grant him "godfather" or "Aristotle" or whoever status.

[Tuthmosis]

(06-02-2014 05:28 PM)Dagonet Wrote:  

Tuth, tons of blue pill guys I know read The Game. It's a piece of pop entertainment. If we're talking about Mystery, yes it was an important cultural event that influnced the Manosphere. But kind of in the same way feminism influenced the Manosphere.

I have mixxed feelings about The Game. I'm not as quick to write it off as a mere piece of fiction or entertainment, as some of you are, but I can be one of its biggest detractors on the forum. It was corny and has become facepalm-level cliched, yes, but dismissing it out of hand is an exercise in collective ingratitude. That blue-pill guys read it is no indicator of its value. Blue pill guys also lift weights, suit up, and travel.

Some of the Manosphere's sharpest commentators were directly influenced by the milieu that created Mystery and The Game. Roosh is no exception. We can't underestimate the value of telling a generation of men that they could change themselves--with an eye on concrete insights into women's nature--and become more appealing to them. This opened the door to an array of self-improvement arenas and applications for the insights of academic disciplines to the experience of the individual.

Since this thread is about analogies: The Game (and its influencers) is the wheel of the Manosphere.

(06-02-2014 05:28 PM)Dagonet Wrote:  

There is not a direct connection between The Game and the Manosphere. They are culturally related, both being birthed from the same time and place. The Mystery Method was a footnote on Manosphere blogs.

This, I'd argue, is more a commentary on their amnesia than it is on an honest appraisal of their predecessors.

[cardguy]

I actually think 'The Game' is a major part of the history as well. I think it is the '50 Shades of Grey' for men. In that most men have read it - but very few will admit it. I am always surprised at how common PUA lingo is amongst the guys I come across.

I was reading FHM years ago - and Neil Strauss had a story in there describing his experiences in learning PUA. The story described how he managed to arrange his first ever threesome. It blew me away.

A couple of years later (or was it less?) - he came out with a book called 'The Game' which I went out and bought. This would have being back in 2006. I didn't discover the book when it first came out (in late 2005) but came across it about 6 months later.

Neil Strauss is a journalist. So - I wonder if he wrote the article for FHM - and only later thought of turning it into a book? Or if he had already written the book - and just wanted to use some of the material in the magazine?

If you want to get into the history of the manosphere - the publication of that article in FHM might be of importance. Since it was the very first time guys heard of PUA type thinking ala Mystery and Neil Strauss.

[Tuthmosis]

(06-02-2014 06:12 PM)cardguy Wrote:  

I think it is a the '50 Shades of Grey' for men.

[Truth Teller]

(06-02-2014 06:10 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

Since this thread is about analogies: The Game (and Mystery) is the wheel of the Manosphere.

Why not Ross Jeffries? He's basically the godfather of the entire "seduction community."

[Tuthmosis]

(06-02-2014 06:17 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

(06-02-2014 06:10 PM)Tuthmosis Wrote:  

Since this thread is about analogies: The Game (and Mystery) is the wheel of the Manosphere.

Why not Ross Jeffries? He's basically the godfather of the entire "seduction community."

I just edited that sentence to include Jeffries, Deangelo, and that whole cast of early characters.

[cardguy]

It was an analogy, Tuth. Maybe a bad one - I dunno...

lol

[Dagonet]

My point is that the The Game undoubtedly "influenced" the Manosphere, but Mystery and Neil Strauss have never been part of the Manosphere. Roissy has.

[cardguy]

Will I get banned for linking to an 'anti-game' blog - that Roosh probably hates?

Maybe.

But - I just want to be helpful - and my man over here thinks the whole history of PUA can be traced back to a bunch of internet marketing scammers called 'The Syndicate'. He even links them into the same circles that Mystery and Neil Strauss were bouncing round in.

http://omegavirginrevolt.wordpress.com/t...hind-game/

Dunno' if the above is of use - since it is from a source which hates PUA in all its forms.

[Tuthmosis]

(06-02-2014 06:22 PM)Dagonet Wrote:  

My point is that the The Game undoubtedly "influenced" the Manosphere, but Mystery and Neil Strauss have never been part of the Manosphere. Roissy has.

I just wrote you an essay and you wrote me a sentence? C'mon, Dagonet.

You're the Bart Simpson of Page 8 of this thread.


   

[The Beast1]

(06-02-2014 05:34 PM)Samseau Wrote:  

I would say there are three main components to the manosphere:

1. Pick-up (Mystery Method)
2. Self-improvement (Pook @ SoSuave)
3. Cultural criticism (Bonecrackr)

Roissy blended them all together into a single format and shaped all future discourse around it. He is the Voltaire.

I like this. That's really the gyst of the movement as a whole.

We need a council of nicea here guys. Lets break the article into 3 main sections like this.