[Vaun]

(07-16-2014 09:32 PM)Sugar Wrote:  

(07-16-2014 09:12 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

alright, so I have three different interpretations, from two different guys, and now you are suggesting I read the comments. Point taken.

I'm not trying to get you or anyone to read the book, so I don't know what to tell you.

I can only tell you what my takeaways were and how reading it helped *me personally*:

- Women are attracted mainly to two things - status, or indicators or status, and the desire to be desired.

Status creates long term, or general attraction. Showing desire with confidence creates a more immediate physical attraction.

- Your status is determined by your behavior, not what you say: Attractive behavior is perceived as a culmination of how you treat yourself, how you treat others, and how others treat you.

- The 1-10 "number system" is basically, in and of itself, a pedestal.

Personally: - Trying to be the alpha tough guy all the time was getting me some bangs, but was generally holding me back, because more often than not it was a front

- I had foolish incorrect beliefs about women that I needed to examine and challenge. For example, hot women don't like guys this age, or with this length hair, or that job, or this kind of clothing.

-The core of vulnerability is assuming attraction without being needy or outcome dependent. I was obsessed with the idea that my "perfection" meant every girl I wanted should be automatically attracted to me.

- I was trying waaay too hard to be invulnerable and come across as perfect. People are attracted to each others rough edges. Giving up on ego preservation and self-preoccupation did me more good than doing 1K approaches as a guy who thought he had to be perfect.

I would have to think about it, but I'm sure there's more I took away.

Thanks man. Some of this stuff to me is glaringly obvious, i.e. the status stuff. The number system is real, its a cold hard reality of the universe, and see any dismissal of ranking as a new agey "everybody's a winner" mentality, how a man reacts to a hot chic is all that matters. I am not sure I understand the vulnerability stuff. My take away from that is to just be more laid back and not get all butt hurt if a chick doesn't vibe with you.

[Stun]

(07-16-2014 09:48 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

how a man reacts to a hot chic is all that matters.

Right, this exactly.

He didn't suggest the numbers system isn't real, but made the point that the only difference between a 7 and a 10 is the 7 has had 50% of the guys she's met put her on a pedestal, where the 10 has had 99% of guys do that.

This seems obvious now, but a few years ago when the book came out a light bulb went off a bit.

(07-16-2014 09:48 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

My take away from that is to just be more laid back and not get all butt hurt if a chick doesn't vibe with you.

This was a huge sticking point for me, especially when I was young. I could have 3 different 8's breaking my door down trying to bang me, and then get bummed out and start questioning my looks when a 5 would shoot me down. It's laughable now, but something I had to learn from.

[Vaun]

(07-16-2014 10:19 PM)Sugar Wrote:  

This was a huge sticking point for me, especially when I was young. I could have 3 different 8's breaking my door down trying to bang me, and then get bummed out and start questioning my looks when a 5 would shoot me down. It's laughable now, but something I had to learn from.

If I could go back and act on all of the signals I failed to read.....

[Truth Teller]

(07-16-2014 11:10 PM)Vaun Wrote:  

If I could go back and act on all of the signals I failed to read.....

+1.

I kick myself thinking about the signals I missed last semester, let alone last year.

[brianmark]

(04-18-2014 09:31 PM)Yeti Wrote:  

(04-18-2014 09:22 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

I recall that Krauser mentioned it in his London Real interview (if not then it was in another interview).

Krauser mentions in his blog somewhere that he pulled his hot Russian wife by acting like a cocky alpha, drunk at a pub in London, when they first met. Then he turned beta on her and she ditched him.

Was Krauser married a Russian woman? I thought he was only married once to a Japanese woman. Two times is too many!

[Saladin]

There's value to be gained from Mark Manson's writing especially on vulnerability. The honesty is definitely attractive to many girls and I can see why guys like reading his work..

However, his view of game is extremely limited.

With his game methodology and theory you're really only going to get girls that are into you from the start. He's a fairly good looking tall white guy, so that works fine for him. It's basically nice guy game but with no neediness and more balls.

Game as a whole is far more encompassing. Having tight game is being able to turn a maybe into a yes. If you're only pursuing girls who are strong yes's, you're limiting yourself.

Here's Mark Manson's thoughts on this-

Quote:

The Law of “Fuck Yes or No” states that when you want to get involved with someone new, in whatever capacity, they must inspire you to say “Fuck Yes” in order for you to proceed with them.
The Law of “Fuck Yes or No” also states that when you want to get involved with someone new, in whatever capacity, THEY must respond with a “Fuck Yes” in order for you to proceed with them

http://markmanson.net/fuck-yes

That's the biggest pile of bullshit I've ever read. If I had followed that advice I would probably be a virgin, and I would have never had some of the great experiences with women I've had.

He's hurting his students by painting the whole seduction community as harmful, and then giving them limited information. He pretty much sold out to gain more mainstream press and income. Fine, I don't blame him for that. But let's be real, what's mainstream is watered down.

So yeah, he has some good advice, but a lot of advice is just downright harmful. Be wary of anyone who's livelihood depends on pandering to the mainstream

[Dalaran1991]

Hah, I can't believe I missed this discussion

(07-11-2014 05:21 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

I can only imagine how frustrating it is as a newbie to have Manson's book as your first game book. It will set you down the wrong path on so many levels it may take a year or more to correct the bad habits the book will instill in you.

Male desire means shit without her being attracted to you first. You would know this had you read the Mystery Method, or Bang.

Oh no you can't imagine Samseau

Mark Manson was the reason I almost dropped out of game altogether and joined the sexodus. Luckily, I met my mentor on his forum (who was, strangely, a master at asshole game)

I won't deny that some of his stuff is good, but he writes in such a way that attract the wrong crowd. The exact crowd it should not attract:

Betas who think there's finally a way you can "be yourself" and get women.

Guys who deep down know that game works, that the worse you treat women the more they respond to you, but still tries desperately to not see the truth and lie to themselves "there must be another way". They are too weak to face the reality of the dating market and to accept that asshole game work, and refuse to change.

They try his stuff and obviously got disappointed even quicker. Or get sunk into a stagnation of delaying "self-improvement" phase. Like Samseau said, your honesty doesn't mean shit if there is no attraction.

What's dangerous it's that it's exactly this type of betas who doesn't understand "honesty" as "vulnerability game", they really do think it's about being honest which does jack shit. It's some high level inner game that won't do you any good unless you already had a strong foundation.

For reference, I subscribed to his ideas and his forum for a year. I did improve myself alright, but still stuck in a 2 year oneitis with a girl half the world away. And never got laid. Never was forced to do an approach because I was being "honest" with myself that I dont have to do that. I found RVF and my life changed completely in a year.

Newbies reading Mark Manson stuff is like someone who never held a gun going to a gun range for the first time and instead of using a Glock 9mm single action, he picked up a full auto light machine gun. It's a great tool, but in the wrong hand it hurts you and other people.

Not to mention Manson himself is quite an ass. FYI, his site is gender-neutral now, and he says his advice applies equally to men and women (more audience = more $, right?) What a joke. I don't give half a shit if a 4 fattie tells me how she can write French poem and raise beautiful children and honestly love me and all my "faults". I would just beg her to get out of my face. That's usually what happen when a Model reader with a SMV 4 tries to go up to a girl and "be honest"

On the other hand, if a 7 is "honest" and learn to develop a beautiful character, that would easily bring her to an 8 or LTR material. That's like a guy with good game throwing in some vulnerability game. It works. But most people will never up their SMV before trying their honesty stuff.

I think the reason for all this is that, the guy himself is a fucking hypocrite. He was in the game and PUA scene for many years, then he "dropped-out". He had already developped some basic game doing PUA, then adding in some inner game stuff. But in his writing he discards the darker but instrumental part of game altogether. Without which none of his stuff would ever works.

Don't take my word for it, go on his forum and read some of the threads by the crowd there. Stink so much I have to dip my laptop screen in Freebreeze.

[Honorable Man]

I absolutely love this book and think it will be extremely helpful for helping to develop my beginner game.

[gamebreaker32]

Listened to it and think the vulnerability but being not needy is spot on. I read this post of his once and found it rather enlightening, http://www.casanovalounge.se/showthread....&pid=27031 . Describes the level of PUA development and what one should focus on, I'm an intermediate now and have found his insight into Game development spot on. I think he has a lot of knowledge and his older stuff is gold but do think he has sold out to the mainstream for bigger bucks.

[Nascimento]

Direct game is high risk high reward, it always has been. Though you have to be careful because if you don't have any game besides being able to tell a girl she is cute all you will do is make her feel good and applaud your confidence. That is obviously not enough, you still have to make a connection.

With that said, the more attractive you are, especially to her, the more you can get away with, the more forward you can be.

[Stun]

(04-08-2015 05:45 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Hah, I can't believe I missed this discussion

(07-11-2014 05:21 AM)Samseau Wrote:  

I can only imagine how frustrating it is as a newbie to have Manson's book as your first game book. It will set you down the wrong path on so many levels it may take a year or more to correct the bad habits the book will instill in you.

Male desire means shit without her being attracted to you first. You would know this had you read the Mystery Method, or Bang.

Not to mention Manson himself is quite an ass. FYI, his site is gender-neutral now, and he says his advice applies equally to men and women (more audience = more $, right?) What a joke. I don't give half a shit if a 4 fattie tells me how she can write French poem and raise beautiful children and honestly love me and all my "faults". I would just beg her to get out of my face. That's usually what happen when a Model reader with a SMV 4 tries to go up to a girl and "be honest"

On the other hand, if a 7 is "honest" and learn to develop a beautiful character, that would easily bring her to an 8 or LTR material. That's like a guy with good game throwing in some vulnerability game. It works. But most people will never up their SMV before trying their honesty stuff.

An entire section of Models, almost 100 pages, is dedicated to lifestyle. He goes over fashion, fitness, diet, charisma, social awareness, conversation skills, push-pull. He even describes an example of a nerdy software engineer hitting on a hot girl at the club and her telling him to fuck off.

I do agree with your sentiments but if someone reads Models and cherry picks vulnerability, while doing nothing to improve himself after the guy spent 100 pages explaining that...

[Samseau]

(04-08-2015 05:45 PM)Dalaran1991 Wrote:  

Don't take my word for it, go on his forum and read some of the threads by the crowd there. Stink so much I have to dip my laptop screen in Freebreeze.

I'm glad you found your way out of that hellhole. Welcome to the other side! We don't bullshit people here with complicated phrases and feelgood jargon. We prefer the truth here.

[Truth Teller]

As time has progressed, I've found myself getting further and further away from Mark Manson's stuff. His idea of vulnerability is generally a good idea, but don't think he really understands why it works. Also, he's completely sold out to the mainstream by this point. He insists that this advice is equally applicable to men and women, when that's simply not true. Or, if it is, the information he's now giving sucks. I acquired his "Dating and Relationships" course in December, I think. I learned literally nothing from it. It's largely, as some have put it, feelgood pablum.

Models is a fine book for someone who knows how to go through it and pick out the valuable parts while discarding the bad parts. It's not a beginner's guide at all. A beginner will be frustrated beyond belief by it. The way Manson recommends approaching (i.e. asking her out) is blind filtering for Yes girls. It's not "incompatibility" when you get rejected like that. It's that you haven't shown that you get it. You're just some random weirdo who happens to have a little more balls than another guy.

I'm not on board with a large percentage (90%+) of the manosphere, but Manson's stuff is not the answer either.

[Dalaran1991]

(04-09-2015 12:14 PM)Stun Wrote:  

An entire section of Models, almost 100 pages, is dedicated to lifestyle. He goes over fashion, fitness, diet, charisma, social awareness, conversation skills, push-pull. He even describes an example of a nerdy software engineer hitting on a hot girl at the club and her telling him to fuck off.

I do agree with your sentiments but if someone reads Models and cherry picks vulnerability, while doing nothing to improve himself after the guy spent 100 pages explaining that...

I guess you missed a point in my post:

Quote:

They try his stuff and obviously got disappointed even quicker. Or get sunk into a stagnation of delaying "self-improvement" phase.

Self-improvement not directed towards getting women can do more harm than good. We had this debate before about game vs lifestyle, I don't need to beat a dead horse. The point is, there are losers who bang hot girls all the time and men who seem to have it all who consistently fail with women. It's like having a gun but point it at the wrong target.

Which brings me to my next point: girls don't give a shit about how awesome your life is. All they care about is if you can make them feel awesome.

For the record, while still on Manson's idea I improved my life tremendously. I learned to dance, martial art, bartending, up my style, graduated top from my college etc. Nothing, no girl attention because if you couldn't present all those awesome stuffs to girls they don't give half a shit if you smoke weed with Kanye West every Saturday. When I started following Roosh, I never tell girls about my life. When it's time to escalate I lift them up Judo style (kind of) and bring them into a dance and it got me laid.

And finally, for a guy who teaches "honesty", he is nothing but honest. Roosh is a much more honest man than he, or any PUA I know, ever is. He hides nothing from us or himself. Sometimes I read his stuff and I'm like "wow, so even Roosh has to work this hard to get pussies". He also holds nothing back about us living in a shitty world and fat feminazi are the main culprits along with their SJWs, despite being attacked by them systematically.

That to me is true honesty and courage. Hiding behind mainstream gender-neutral ideas is deception and cowardice.

Oh, and every time I see a white, tall, decent-looking guy trying to teach game by "just be yourself":

[Stun]

^ Your main point, and the crux of your argument, seemed that a "male 4" will get treated the way you or I would treat a female "fattie 4."

So my reply was that if you read the book and applied even half of what he told you - you would not be a male 4 anymore, because you would have gone to the gym, improved your diet, learned how to dress, learned body language, and learned charisma. All things that help you out with women.

I may have misunderstood this to be your point, to be fair.

Also: yes I am tall and white, and I have no idea what vulnerability would do for someone with different genes. I only know the material worked for me, even if it worked for no one else. I don't care one bit about MM's character -if he is a liar or a thief or a murderer, all I know is the book helped me improve a major sticking point for me, which was that I felt I always needed to be perfect.

I have also stated on here many times how much I admire Roosh. I just don't believe in "one true path" whether for girls or for self-improvement, or for anything else. I learn from everyone, especially from this forum

[Manwhore]

That just means you were as pathetic as these women are.

So come to find out it's human nature not female nature.

(07-16-2014 10:19 PM)Stun Wrote:  

This was a huge sticking point for me, especially when I was young. I could have 3 different 8's breaking my door down trying to bang me, and then get bummed out and start questioning my looks when a 5 would shoot me down. It's laughable now, but something I had to learn from.

[fiasco360]

I found the advice to be fairly solid. But as many others said in here, in the hands of a newbie it's kind of garbage and it has some limitations. I don't have as high of a lay count as most guys in here but I was also in 2 long term relationships for quite some time. I had a great time in college being very social and have experience with a decent number of ONS.

I've been out with some "PUAs" and it's pretty damn cringe worthy to see some of these guys. Most people "aspiring" to pick up girls tend to be really awkward and don't know how to interact with women. The ones who I do see that get laid, do it with either crazy fucking women or the women are low quality.

If you are already experienced, have your shit together (mostly) and have had a lot of social calibration before hand, then the honesty aspect works fairly well.

I still dick around with 99% of women I'm talking to, it's completely fun and I'm not ashamed of it. I get called an asshole quite often but they all say it in the same manner with a grin on their face. Then I end up doing something nice for a girl on my terms.

The whole route of seduction isn't to just state facts to the person across from you, it's acclimation and mystery. But you don't have to be a sociopath liar to get women into bed.

Note: this isn't true for easy chicks that are drunk off their ass, probably crazy but just want your dick for the night. In those scenarios, do whatever you need to do.

[Stun]

(04-10-2015 02:53 AM)Manwhore Wrote:  

That just means you were as pathetic as these women are.

So come to find out it's human nature not female nature.

(07-16-2014 10:19 PM)Stun Wrote:  

This was a huge sticking point for me, especially when I was young. I could have 3 different 8's breaking my door down trying to bang me, and then get bummed out and start questioning my looks when a 5 would shoot me down. It's laughable now, but something I had to learn from.

Yes that was my biggest weakness before learning about game - extreme confidence with women who showed IOIs - super thin skin with they who showed IODs.

Gotta chalk it up to being raised by too many women and not enough men.

[Parlay44]

Just because you agree with something doesn't mean that it is right. That's why you're here on this forum in the first place right? Because you believed at one point that treating women with love and respect will get you laid.

[Truth Teller]

(04-10-2015 06:18 PM)Parlay44 Wrote:  

Just because you agree with something doesn't mean that it is right. That's why you're here on this forum in the first place right? Because you believed at one point that treating women with love and respect will get you laid.

Love and respect are not inherently weak qualities. If you're involved in game, you should fundamentally love and respect women. There's a way to do it in a context of strength (which does work) and a way to do it in a context of weakness.

Most "nice guys" actually hate women. It's why they easily move over to the "alpha asshole" that some in the manosphere promote.

[The Lizard of Oz]

(04-10-2015 07:05 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

If you're involved in game, you should fundamentally love and respect women.

No. There is no reason to "fundamentally love and respect" anyone who is not worthy of love and respect. "Women" as a whole are not especially worthy of either, though some (very few) individual women might be.

Words like "love and respect" should not be thrown around lightly, and the feelings themselves should be earned -- particularly respect, and love as well unless it is bestowed on one by irresistible forces like family relation.

(04-10-2015 07:05 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

Most "nice guys" actually hate women. It's why they easily move over to the "alpha asshole" that some in the manosphere promote.

That is completely false and is a nasty feminist talking point. I'm surprised to hear you say that, TT.

Most guys of all kinds, very much including most "nice guys", like women a great deal. Very, very few men "hate women". True misogynists -- men who unaffectedly dislike or even hate women -- are a vanishingly rare breed. That is why women get the pussy pass, and always have to some extent.

The converse is not true -- women do not particularly like men in general, although they love love love, beyond all else, a small subset of men, the bad boys, alphas and naturals. But they are completely indifferent to, and often actively dislike, the great majority of men who do not belong to that category.

[Manwhore]

I would have to agree with Lizard.

(04-10-2015 07:38 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

(04-10-2015 07:05 PM)Truth Teller Wrote:  

Most "nice guys" actually hate women. It's why they easily move over to the "alpha asshole" that some in the manosphere promote.

That is completely false and is a nasty feminist talking point. I'm surprised to hear you say that, TT.

Most guys of all kinds, very much including most "nice guys", like women a great deal. Very, very few men "hate women". True misogynists -- men who unaffectedly dislike or even hate women -- are a vanishingly rare breed. That is why women get the pussy pass, and always have to some extent.

The converse is not true -- women do not particularly like men in general, although they love love love, beyond all else, a small subset of men, the bad boys, alphas and naturals. But they are completely indifferent to, and often actively dislike, the great majority of men who do not belong to that category.

[XII]

(04-10-2015 05:35 PM)Stun Wrote:  

(04-10-2015 02:53 AM)Manwhore Wrote:  

That just means you were as pathetic as these women are.

So come to find out it's human nature not female nature.

(07-16-2014 10:19 PM)Stun Wrote:  

This was a huge sticking point for me, especially when I was young. I could have 3 different 8's breaking my door down trying to bang me, and then get bummed out and start questioning my looks when a 5 would shoot me down. It's laughable now, but something I had to learn from.

Yes that was my biggest weakness before learning about game - extreme confidence with women who showed IOIs - super thin skin with they who showed IODs.

Gotta chalk it up to being raised by too many women and not enough men.

Can you elaborate on this?

Whenever I get an IOD while talking to a girl I'm inclined to eject.

[Stun]

(04-11-2015 09:10 PM)XII Wrote:  

Can you elaborate on this?

Whenever I get an IOD while talking to a girl I'm inclined to eject.

I'm in my, uh, very late 30s.

So when I was 21-25 there were no real resources like what we have today.

There was no Roosh, no Mystery, no "The Game." Very few internet resources. My first game book was "The System" and I dont think that was even published until I was 29.

So we had to learn from our own in-field experience and from other guys. My experience showed me that average and sometimes hot women would give me IOIs. Sometimes a mediocre chick would give me IODs, and knowing nothing about game or psychology I would chase her.

I had to learn how to be aloof, and how to be cool and how to draw women in, and to get them to chase me.

[XII]

Got it.

In my younger days when I had very low self-esteem due to an unhealthy upbringing I would only seek out girls who would give me IOD's. I needed to win them over. A girl that gave me an IOI would become invisible; I could only "see" the disinterested ones whose disinterest confirmed my self-appraisal. I've passed over gorgeous girls because they liked me. Such is the flawed mental calculus of someone young and in ill health.

Now that I have a solid sense of self, it's a reversal of the above.