[WEDO]

Best book I have ever read on inner game. I agree with 90% of what this guys says.

http://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Wom...ords=model

[DevonHardy]

(04-18-2014 08:22 PM)WEDO Wrote:  

Best book I have ever read on inner game. I agree with 90% of what this guys says.

http://www.amazon.com/Models-Attract-Wom...ords=model

Yep, every guy that's into seduction needs to read this. Read it last year and it's solid. Best I've ever read.

[Yeti]

I haven't read it. From what I hear, it all sounds good in theory, but is more impractical to implement on the street, given the nature of modern Western women.

I might write more about this on the forum sometime - basically I've tried both being a confident, vulnerable guy, and on the flipside, a bit of an aloof, asshole alpha (I'm probably actually aloof by nature). I had exponentially better results when I remained distant and aloof. In fact, the good girls who fell in love with me did so (I think) because when we'd first met, I was the aloof alpha. Any girl in the last five years whom I've met while a higher beta - the relationship was short-lived and her passion was shallower.

So while I'm sure that his game works, from my experience, his game works only after the girl falls hard for you as the aloof alpha.

[Seth_Rose]

FYI this thread is posted in the Travel Section

[RexImperator]

I recall that Krauser mentioned it in his London Real interview (if not then it was in another interview).

[Yeti]

(04-18-2014 09:22 PM)RexImperator Wrote:  

I recall that Krauser mentioned it in his London Real interview (if not then it was in another interview).

Krauser mentions in his blog somewhere that he pulled his hot Russian wife by acting like a cocky alpha, drunk at a pub in London, when they first met. Then he turned beta on her and she ditched him.

[pitt]

Honesty is just something that doesn't work with women.

I am sure some of you guys received some value from this book but honesty and women don't go together.

I also think a big part of the game is being able to act. If you are an international player, you need to be able to fit in with different types of personalities and understand culture differences. By having a standard approach you will be limited, sure some women will like you and you will get laid but your game won't be so amplified.

Women like liars. It's not like I walk to every women and start lying to them straight away. But I try to have a more amplified personality where I can blend in with all types of personalities.

Guys that write these type of books actually ''destroy'' the lives of natural betas. Natural betas will believe that they will find the right girl just by being them when in reality she wants the asshole guy.

Anyway, just my two cents.

[Beyond Borders]

(04-20-2014 12:25 PM)pitt Wrote:  

Honesty is just something that doesn't work with women.

I am sure some of you guys received some value from this book but honesty and women don't go together.

I also think a big part of the game is being able to act. If you are an international player, you need to be able to fit in with different types of personalities and understand culture differences. By having a standard approach you will be limited, sure some women will like you and you will get laid but your game won't be so amplified.

Women like liars. It's not like I walk to every women and start lying to them straight away. But I try to have a more amplified personality where I can blend in with all types of personalities.

Guys that write these type of books actually ''destroy'' the lives of natural betas. Natural betas will believe that they will find the right girl just by being them when in reality she wants the asshole guy.

Anyway, just my two cents.

I understand your point. I certainly won't pretend to be an authority on game literature or game.

That said, honesty has always worked quite well with me. And I feel I can be just as polarizing with my honesty (amplified personallity).

For example, women ask if I'm a player and I just tell them yes or sometimes. With a smirk that says what are you gonna do about it. They ask if I've fucked a lot of girls or if I'm seeing other women and I say yes. Sometimes I'll lie but I do it with a shit-eating grin on my face that makes the truth clear as day and gets me a swat on the arm or whatever.

You can still be an "asshole" but be honest about it and it will most likely still work in your favor.

I'll admit I'm far more dishonest in Asia, at least when it gets the girlfriend state, but it really seems expected here. They don't appreciate honesty the way people do back home and would rather have the truth swept under the rug.

I don't mean this in a confrontational manner, Pitt - just curious - but have your read the book? Or just going by the title? I think it's about a lot more than just lying vs not lying.

Maybe this guy's approach to game isn't perfect, but I find a lot of these principles have done me well enough in my life. Even if I have wandered away from his type of approach over the years. I'd have to reread the book to give it any stronger of an endorsement than that though. My own memory of the exact concepts is a bit fuzzy too.

I agree with WEDO that the key lessons in this book are inner game lessons. I also like the author's principled rules for walking away from bitches. I've always been willing to walk away from beautiful woman who piss me off, but the way he puts it down has made it even more of a rule of mine.

And the concept of polarizing as fast as possible to make the woman either accept or reject you. I think at one point he says something like "everything that is attractive is also polarizing." The way he breaks it down makes really good sense.

[The Lizard of Oz]

There are two kinds of honesty: emotional honesty and factual honesty. Emotional honesty is very helpful in dealing with women; factual honesty is a handicap.

The problem with most beta males is that they are fanatically factually honest which buys them nothing but contempt from women who could not possibly give less of a shit about factual truth; but they are afraid to let their emotions show, which buys them more contempt.

The perfect player is an effortless liar in all that comes to fact but who is emotionally honest or "present". That does not mean someone who is "emotional" in the conventional sense -- very often the basic emotional state of a man is a vast indifference. Betas hide their indifference; alphas and naturals are shameless and let it show. Betas also hide their enthusiasms when they do strike them; alphas and naturals always display them.

When a woman tells a guy "just be yourself" she means it -- women are horrified and fascinated by men who are relaxed enough to be emotionally honest in every context. Very few men are. Women are shameless liars, but men are usually uptight and emotionally dishonest because they are ashamed both of their basic cool indifference and their occasional hot enthusiasms.

[pitt]

(04-20-2014 12:35 PM)Beyond Borders Wrote:  

(04-20-2014 12:25 PM)pitt Wrote:  

Honesty is just something that doesn't work with women.

I am sure some of you guys received some value from this book but honesty and women don't go together.

I also think a big part of the game is being able to act. If you are an international player, you need to be able to fit in with different types of personalities and understand culture differences. By having a standard approach you will be limited, sure some women will like you and you will get laid but your game won't be so amplified.

Women like liars. It's not like I walk to every women and start lying to them straight away. But I try to have a more amplified personality where I can blend in with all types of personalities.

Guys that write these type of books actually ''destroy'' the lives of natural betas. Natural betas will believe that they will find the right girl just by being them when in reality she wants the asshole guy.

Anyway, just my two cents.

I understand your point. I certainly won't pretend to be an authority on game literature or game.

That said, honesty has always worked quite well with me. And I feel I can be just as polarizing with my honesty (amplified personallity).

For example, women ask if I'm a player and I just tell them yes or sometimes. With a smirk that says what are you gonna do about it. They ask if I've fucked a lot of girls or if I'm seeing other women and I say yes. Sometimes I'll lie but I do it with a shit-eating grin on my face that makes the truth clear as day and gets me a swat on the arm or whatever.

You can still be an "asshole" but be honest about it and it will most likely still work in your favor.

I'll admit I'm far more dishonest in Asia, at least when it gets the girlfriend state, but it really seems expected here. They don't appreciate honesty the way people do back home and would rather have the truth swept under the rug.

I don't mean this in a confrontational manner, Pitt - just curious - but have your read the book? Or just going by the title? I think it's about a lot more than just lying vs not lying.

Maybe this guy's approach to game isn't perfect, but I find a lot of these principles have done me well enough in my life. Even if I have wandered away from his type of approach over the years. I'd have to reread the book to give it any stronger of an endorsement than that though. My own memory of the exact concepts is a bit fuzzy too.

I agree with WEDO that the key lessons in this book are inner game lessons. I also like the author's principled rules for walking away from bitches. I've always been willing to walk away from beautiful woman who piss me off, but the way he puts it down has made it even more of a rule of mine.

And the concept of polarizing as fast as possible to make the woman either accept or reject you. I think at one point he says something like "everything that is attractive is also polarizing." The way he breaks it down makes really good sense.

Talking about honesty, I am probably one of the most honest person you will ever meet. I am the type that couldn't steal a billion dollars from a friend or even a stranger. However, when comes to being honest to women, my honesty concept becomes flexible.

I remember years ago (when I was 16 to 19), I used to cheat on my girlfriends and later on I would go tell them that I had cheated on them. I had this sense that I had to be loyal to people and if I violated any rules, I thought I should let them know what's up. These girls appreciated the fact that I was telling them the truth but at the same time I was giving them the freedom to just act the same way I was acting and of course these relationships never lasted long. I guess being honest in that sense was the same as being stupid.

On a general note, I actually tell girls white lies. I don't usually tell them my real name, what I really do for living but my personality usually doesn't vary much. I am a natural cool guy (damn i sound arrogant saying this lol) so I don't feel the need to be creating different personalities but if I think that she is ''asking'' for another type of personality, I put an act on. I have dated girls that actually enjoyed being psychologically bullied, soon as I noticed that that's the type of guys they liked to date, I had to become the bully, if I used my real personality and I was being the real me, I probably couldn't even fuck them. There were girls that I only fucked thanks to being straight aggressive after few drinks at my house, I usually smell when a girl likes that kinda guy, I literally had to tell them to shut up and that I was going to fuck the shit out of them and I don't care how they feel (as if i was about to rape them)..If I was using my usual escalation game, where I just get really sexual with girls and try to fuck them..it wouldn't work. These girls are highly attracted to a certain type of guy.

I think knowing how to act is very important in game, reason why honesty may not be the best tool.

Side note: I haven't read the book just the book reviews.

[Vaun]

I read the book and could not discern any real take away from it, other than whats in the title/description. Lizards post above sums up the book better than the book itself. Its an interesting frothy concept, but I am not sure how its applicable to a typical interaction with a women, or what its even intended to achieve. Just be yourself?? Be emotionally honest?? I am as emotionally honest if I dont like someone, I will leave, or if I like someone, I will stick around and participate. I see this book as a reaction to empty minded, unfulfilling gaming, for men that want stronger connections rather than empty sex. Am I right about that? I didnt come away with an actual well articulated theory, a practical application or even a real point of view.

[Tytalus]

I started a similar thread on this book months ago:

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-31786.html

and in that thread, someone else point to:

http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-13301.html

It seems to a helpful book that guys here stumble across from time to time!

[WestIndianArchie]

The parts that are good, are really good.
The other stuff, not so good.

The polarity thing is good.

The vulnerability thing, poorly named imo - at least in trying to appeal the "alpha" males who are going to read it, is good, but it needs more context.

His solution to negative and toxic girls, which can easily be read as chicks that shit test you, is to just not even deal with them.

I don't know about you, but that's running away from a problem. Because it's very easy to confuse actual dislike and general inertia.

Girls (people really) prefer to stay in the same situation, and only jump towards known better situations. Which is why they will fuck known quantities like Celebrities and Social Circle guys, and not deal with Rando's that they meet on the street/at some club.

A big part of game is being that random guy, getting her excited, and then making the logistics easy. Your whole point is to get her out of her normal way of doing things. That requires dealing with unpleasantness and resistance.

The Models way is to minimize the difficulty, make sure you present the real you - even the you that others may not like, and take the cream off the top.

It's a viable model, and once you get the initial go ahead, it might be easier to get to the end goal AND stay consistent with your behavior.

But consistency of behavior means predictability, which in turn does the opposite for keeping something going, IME.

WIA

[Spider]

If you run game with the intention of being fully honest and vulnerable, I think you will lose out on a lot of opportunities.

I really enjoyed the book, and I believe Manson is trying to provide a more efficient and stress-free approach to dealing with girls: being real enough with the girl that you are able to find someone who is genuinely attracted to you, while learning to quickly walk away and disengage girls that are going to play games and fuck with your head.

Over the last few months I've been on several dates, where I thought, "Let me give Manson's method a try...and let me be fully honest and out there with girls. If they like me cool, if they don't fuck it, worth trying this 'vulnerability' thing."

When I'm usually with new girls I'm constantly joking around and teasing them, and when they ask me questions I tend to dodge them a lot, which leaves a bit of mystery and generally builds attraction. I'll joke around and tell them we just met, she doesn't get to know everything about me yet, don't make it too obvious I'm enjoying her company, etc.

After reading Models, I tried acting a little bit differently when I first go out with girls. I'd answer their questions being more straight-forward, I played less of a douche character. Not surprisingly, I found girls were less likely to follow up with me when I responded with total honesty, and explained by background and family etc.

...The takeaway of what I got from the book is not necessarily to be 100% honest with every girl you meet - you can still tease and make up small lies, change topics to create mystery and shape the conversation to go in the direction you want - but you need to learn which girls are genuinely interested so you don't have to invest energy verbally battling your typical American girl at a bar, whose acting bitchy but still chatting with you for attention.

Instead you develop a better idea of the kinds of girls you want to/enjoy talking to. Instead of approaching and seeing how far you can take every interaction, you do quite a bit of rejecting yourself. If you walk up to a cute girl, and she's yapping about something you're not interested in, just walk away and talk to the next girl, and the next one after that, until you find someone who is actually pleasant to converse with.

I like being a little more straightforward and eliminating girls I don't want to waste my words with .. but being a bit of an asshole works for me, and even if I have to 'act' a little bit, I think it's worth it because of the better results.

Finding the right balance is key, and I think a lot of Manson's principles are important - ideas that we should all at least hear.

[DarkKing]

Honesty rarely works with chicks, as I keep finding out over and over again.

[Vaun]

(04-22-2014 12:06 AM)WestIndianArchie Wrote:  

His solution to negative and toxic girls, which can easily be read as chicks that shit test you, is to just not even deal with them.

This is my point. Are women who shit test higher quality than the ones who dont? Are the ones who dont just easier and desperate? Are the shit testers just seeing if your worthy? There is obviously a line between being a doormat, and having a witty, cool and unfazed response. Is she just looking for this, or is it subconcious based on some weird religious guilt or whatever? Who the hell knows. Knowing your absolute boundaries is a must. I wont let a toxic women get close enough anyway to affect me. But it gets confusing determining if the shit test is a sign of disinterest, or a subconscious reflex she has before she spreads her legs.

I am guilty of walking away from shit testers a lot, but they didn't walk away from me. They just say something stupid, or are late and flakey. Thats all, nothing dramatic thats costs me money, or threatens me, except for a little wasted time. I dont know, we are still in the front half of 2014, maybe a goal for the rest of the year is to totally stick it out through shit tests, and push harder through a smart response, and see if the sex is better.

Lets see one of these budding writers take a stab at a shit test theory, I'll buy that for a dollar!

[Saladin]

Mark Manson seems to be quite a sellout to the mainstream. He seems to give a ton of watered down dating advice.

Not to mention he hates on Roosh and RSD.

He seems like the kind of guy whose lessons are good if you're a good looking dude who's cool and has shit handled. But I really doubt that his advice is that effective. Maybe parts of it...

Btw I did read through half of Models.

This is the worst article I've ever read-

http://markmanson.net/fuck-yes

That kind of article is horrible for anyone learning game. When you suck shit how many girls are going to say "fuck yes" to you? And what about shit tests?

That article may be good advice for pussy paradise countries to filter out the chaff but in North America seems like very bad advice for a newbie who should be taking every chance he can to push an interaction, learn how to pull etc.

[funkyzeit]

If anyone asks me what certainly doesn't work with girls, it's complete honesty. You have to dance around the truth, not necessarily lie. Personally I hate lying, especially if the girl is nice and kind ad deserves a bit of excitement and playful uncertainty.

Q:"Are you a player?"
A:"I'm a fan of unique and new."

Q:"Are you just trying to sleep with me?"
A:"I haven't decided yet."

[WEDO]

(04-23-2014 04:09 AM)funkyzeit Wrote:  

If anyone asks me what certainly doesn't work with girls, it's complete honesty. You have to dance around the truth, not necessarily lie. Personally I hate lying, especially if the girl is nice and kind ad deserves a bit of excitement and playful uncertainty.

Q:"Are you a player?"
A:"I'm a fan of unique and new."

Q:"Are you just trying to sleep with me?"
A:"I haven't decided yet."

Q: Are you serious?

You should already know what to do with a chick asking questions like that even without reading the book.

If she has a smile on her face when she is asking the questions and just being playful.... the answers should be "yes" and "yes".

If she is dead serous when asking....walk away...and don't look back....the woman either hates the sight of you or has been humped and dumped so many times that she is now only interested in lesbian relationships at this point.

But honestly would still apply.....I would just tell her that I'm sorry that the fact that I "was" attracted to you freaked you out so bad....that you started worrying that I might actually want to have sex with you....but I can assure you that is no longer the case.

On second thought.... actions speak louder than words....I think I would just walk off and start talking to someone else.

[Vaun]

(04-24-2014 02:57 AM)WEDO Wrote:  

(04-23-2014 04:09 AM)funkyzeit Wrote:  

If anyone asks me what certainly doesn't work with girls, it's complete honesty. You have to dance around the truth, not necessarily lie. Personally I hate lying, especially if the girl is nice and kind ad deserves a bit of excitement and playful uncertainty.

Q:"Are you a player?"
A:"I'm a fan of unique and new."

Q:"Are you just trying to sleep with me?"
A:"I haven't decided yet."

Q: Are you serious?

You should already know what to do with a chick asking questions like that even without reading the book.

If she has a smile on her face when she is asking the questions and just being playful.... the answers should be "yes" and "yes".

If she is dead serous when asking....walk away...and don't look back....the woman either hates the sight of you or has been humped and dumped so many times that she is now only interested in lesbian relationships at this point.

But honestly would still apply.....I would just tell her that I'm sorry that the fact that I "was" attracted to you freaked you out so bad....that you started worrying that I might actually want to have sex with you....but I can assure you that is no longer the case.

On second thought.... actions speak louder than words....I think I would just walk off and start talking to someone else.

I'd be willing to bet the ones doing the most shit testing are the easiest to lay. When thinking back on it, the worst shit testers I have experienced in the last year that I have walked away from, were the easiest to connect with and meet up with. They text you a lot, are strangely high responsive, want to meet you RIGHT NOW, etc. Who cares about her stupid meaningless questions, just say whatever sounds good and move past them.

[Cr33pin]

This book shows up on my Amazon recommendations. It seems to be very highly rated on by Amazon people who bought it.

[berserk]

(04-20-2014 01:14 PM)The Lizard of Oz Wrote:  

There are two kinds of honesty: emotional honesty and factual honesty. Emotional honesty is very helpful in dealing with women; factual honesty is a handicap.

The problem with most beta males is that they are fanatically factually honest which buys them nothing but contempt from women who could not possibly give less of a shit about factual truth; but they are afraid to let their emotions show, which buys them more contempt.

The perfect player is an effortless liar in all that comes to fact but who is emotionally honest or "present". That does not mean someone who is "emotional" in the conventional sense -- very often the basic emotional state of a man is a vast indifference. Betas hide their indifference; alphas and naturals are shameless and let it show. Betas also hide their enthusiasms when they do strike them; alphas and naturals always display them.

When a woman tells a guy "just be yourself" she means it -- women are horrified and fascinated by men who are relaxed enough to be emotionally honest in every context. Very few men are. Women are shameless liars, but men are usually uptight and emotionally dishonest because they are ashamed both of their basic cool indifference and their occasional hot enthusiasms.

Great post mate, I'd really like to see you flesh this out and make a thread in the game section and I am sure others would too.

[RexImperator]

Check out Kassem G's videos on YouTube. He's able to just say what he's thinking in an unfiltered way, and be funny about it.

[Basil Ransom]

(04-22-2014 10:13 PM)Saladin Wrote:  

Mark Manson seems to be quite a sellout to the mainstream. He seems to give a ton of watered down dating advice.

Agreed.

Manson's advice is rarely terrible, and the item on polarity like you said is very good. But Manson doesn't cover the seedy underside of women, especially of American women. Here's a man who left America because he hated American women, yet he's telling all his readers if you just become a good honest guy, the quality of women you meet will rise to match your growth, and you'll be happy.

Maybe I'm in fact a terrible person who lacks integrity, and delude myself otherwise that I'm a decent person. And maybe I delude myself about my friends, some of whom are from this forum, that they are in fact terrible, dishonest people.

But I don't think so. I think that I mostly act with integrity and decency when I first meet a girl, but I don't get it in return. And I believe the same about my friends. Manson's assurance that you get what you give is just not true when it comes to dating in America. Manson is spitting happy talk. Happy talk is baby talk - you babble to babies to soothe and entertain them, and you babble to desperate men to raise their spirits and make them feel empowered.

To be fair, it's a difficult balance. If you give it your all and you still fail to achieve the success you desire, you'll beat yourself up over it. If you get too fatalistic, you won't try to improve your straits. Tyler Durden explained this excellently in the blueprint, in discussing an external locus of control vs internal locus of control. I discussed it here - http://www.rooshvforum.network/thread-10911-...69574.html :

Basil Ransom Wrote:

Tyler Durden in the Blueprint has an excellent analysis of this actually. I forget the exact words he uses, but it revolves around being internally and externally focused. A man who is internally focused believes that any good or bad outcome is due to his efforts. A man with an external locus of control attributes his outcomes to things beyond his control.

Mainstream wisdom is that romance is entirely out of your control. "Be yourself." "Chemistry." "Fate." The 'seduction industry' tends towards the opposite, that it's completely under your control, and the fault lies entirely with you. The problem with being 100% external is that you think there's nothing you can do to improve. If you're 100% internal, you get weird, awkward, you overthink everything, and then you blame yourself when you aren't the cause.

The optimal mindset is a bit of both. Identify where you can improve, but understand that your failures may sometimes be beyond your control. For instance, if a date doesn't go well for me, I will try to identify things I could have done better that might have made me more likely to succeed. But overall, I probably just feel like the bitch sucked. If she was cool, we'd be going on another date.

There are so many things in this game that are out of your control, that you can't blame it all on yourself.

Manson is babbling to you, telling you that everything is within your control, and that with his help, you can fix it. It isn't. Believing everything is within your control can be harmful to your mental health.

This is another benefit of having friends who are players. You can check in with them to see that the challenges you're facing are not unique to you, and are in fact common to men like yourself. When you see that other guys, cool legit guys, have the same problems, you start to realize you aren't necessarily the source.

And when I say desperate men, I am not disparaging them, I am saying their limited access to anything but flawed women has driven them to desperation, just like a man on a desert island.

[WEDO]

(04-27-2014 11:16 AM)Basil Ransom Wrote:  

Manson is babbling to you, telling you that everything is within your control, and that with his help, you can fix it. It isn't. Believing everything is within your control can be harmful to your mental health.

Where are you guys reading that Manson says that everything is within your control? I didn't get that from his book.

He often says that walking away is a good time saver and if the chick bolts just to move on.

What I agree with most is his hierarchy of things that are most important.

1) a guys looks (which can be improved on if need be)

2) neediness (quit being a wimp around women and constantly saying what you think they want to hear instead of what you really think.) Can't tell you how many times I'm out with a friend that I like hanging with and then the minute a girl shows you he starts acting like a fag.

3) Attractive lifestyle.....guys still living with their parents are screwed.

4) Getting physical with women right from the start.

5) Game....what the hell you actually say to women. Bottom of the list for most guys unless you are a stand up comedian....love hanging out with guys like this as they attract a lot of women and if they are lacking in one of the above categories...I can usually pull which ever chick I want right out from under him.