[samsamsam]

Would you guys consider this excessive use of force? It seems like he is cooperating. I can't see how he justified getting shot and repeatedly bean bagged while on the ground. When he gets shot he is turning away from the officers. I know he has a knife in his hands, but still seems a bit harsh.

And from a gun safety perspective, isn't the guy who is firing too close to the other officers? Meaning a slight tilt and he puts one in an officer?

[Snowplow]

Why didn't they just bean bag him first then send the dog?

I mean I get that he is armed and its not ideal conditions for a chase/grab. They also don't know if he is on anything.

[Quintus Curtius]

Many commentators have recently talked about how the police in America are becoming more militarized. I think this is a very dangerous trend, but one that has been going on steadily since 2001. Tons of money have been thrown at security and police since then, and it has been used to equip and train the police into a true domestic army.

Here's something intelligent: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/co...ation.html

Whether this video involves excessive force is not easy to tell. It does appear to be so. But then again, I am not on the spot.

[Kimber]

Easy to say from the comfort of my armchair but this is excessive use of force.

Why where guns drawn in the first place? Why were the cops trying to move this man? Was he wanted? A known criminal?

they gave him around 8 seconds (a long time) to get on the ground and he made no effort to do so, he was armed, and could have been on something as someone has already said.

Despite that though, everyone shot him.

[Teutatis]

I usually understand that the Police's job is extremely difficult and they are justified is what they do in certain circumstances, but this is disgusting, they just killed a man for no reason other than they felt like it. Obviously excessive use of force. What happened to the serve and protect? Is this what security forces are reduced to, a bunch of trigger happy guys that have no problem killing a citizen that is offering no present danger to any of them. I hope all of them get in trouble.

[Sp5]

I read that Albuquerque police have shot 23 people in the last three years. That seems like a lot for a medium sized city.

[samsamsam]

He was a homeless guy and I guess they are trying to clamp down on homeless guys. Just seems like he is in a remote place, not near others so I don't think he is harassing anyone.

[RawGod]

Join the police force if you want to live out your fantasy of killing a man and getting away with it.

[Hotwheels]

(03-31-2014 10:21 PM)Quintus Curtius Wrote:  

Many commentators have recently talked about how the police in America are becoming more militarized. I think this is a very dangerous trend, but one that has been going on steadily since 2001. Tons of money have been thrown at security and police since then, and it has been used to equip and train the police into a true domestic army.

Here's something intelligent: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/co...ation.html

Whether this video involves excessive force is not easy to tell. It does appear to be so. But then again, I am not on the spot.

The county I am originally from has a population of 18,000 people and has held steady around that number for 100 years. In the 70's there were two patrol deputies on duty for the entire county. Now there are ten.

They actually have some sort of Rapid Response vehicle now, a mobile command unit, some armored unit, and all sorts of other shit. You'll see at least 10 squad cars sitting around the courthouse.

In the 80's the probation and parole agent was part time, covering two counties. Now there are 4 agents for the ONE tiny county.

All this change and addition for a county that has the same population it did 100 years ago. There is no huge drug culture or anything. I just shake my head.

And blame feminism.

[CaptainChardonnay]

Not supporting the cops or anything but I've been in the military for 4 years and during that time have learned about the use and escalation of force.

If someone has a knife and the officer feels threatened then the officer is within his legal means of firing shots into the person with the knife. Someone charging you with a knife is a fast moving target with a deadly weapon. In war there have been lots of stories of guys killing a lot of dudes just with a knife, recently there was one of a British Royal Marine in Afghanistan who charge a Taliban position when he ran out of ammo killing 20+ enemy combatants, possibly winning the Victoria Cross. From a legal Canadian Law perspective, this wouldn't be excessive force but just because its legal doesn't mean people aren't going to get upset about it.

In regards to the the other comment about gun safety and the officers crossing into the other officers arcs of fire, in an ideal situation for example the enemy combatant will be in the centre of a clock and you'll have 2 officers, one for example to the enemy's 12 o clock and another to his 3 or 9. Picture an L with the enemy at the joint. This is optimal because you wont cross arcs of fire and one guy can go and restrain the person and if shit hits the fan he can just jump off and then other guy can put a few rounds in him. From the video though, they're clearly on a hill and too much movement could of spooked the guy into attacking.

Again, Not supporting the officers but this is what was probably going on in their minds.

[Cattle Rustler]

CC, what you are saying is just theory....not realistic stuff. It's like those Krav Maga moves, they look badass but aren't that practical in a real fight.

A homeless guy is most likely not going to kill a cop. Shit, give me the number of cops killed by hobos.....not to mention this whole thing should be called the pussificiation of police. What's the point of having a cop if they aren't willing to put their skin in the game?

[Ziltoid]

A large percentage of homeless people have mental illness issues... So yeah, great tactical approach to confront them guns drawn, in armor, with an attack dog. I'm sure THAT'S not threatening at all to someone with delusional schizophrenia.

Why is anything close to this much firepower needed to evict vagrants? Unless there is a school shooting or a drug cartel showdown, why are police officers just waltzing around packing this kind of heat? Disgusting. These guys badly want to be soldiers, not civil servants.

[soup]

Obviously excessive.

What the fuck happened to tasers?

[CaptainChardonnay]

Guys, I don't support what they did. Thats how they perceive the situation.

Not theory:
http://www.badassoftheweek.com/toloza.html
Cpl. Samuel Toloza used a 3 inch knife to repel an insurgent attack

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/03/nyregi....html?_r=0
Cases where people have been shot over 10 times and lived

Another perspective to consider is drugs and disease. Its easy to say that cops should put their skin in the game but at the end of the day, if you catch something because you were wrestling a guy then its going to be you living with it for the rest of your life.

The situation could have been resolved another way but someone got nervous and started firing and when someone starts shooting, your buddies are going to shoot also. Considering they clearly had a bean bag gun and dog they should have used that first.

In regards to the military style equipment, its the United States. Theres a ton of guns going around. Better to have something and not need it than to not have it and need it.

[MHaes]

^^^No, US has a very low homicide rate. Gun ownership is not dangerous.

[Billy Chubbs]

(04-01-2014 02:35 AM)soup Wrote:  

Obviously excessive.

What the fuck happened to tasers?

That's what I was thinking. There are so many Less Than Lethal pieces of equipment the police have access to nowadays; Tasers, flash bangs, stun grenades, sting grenades, bean bag guns, pepper spray, pepper balls...hell, an officer in the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) told my class once how he stopped a suspect from attacking him by shining a million candle watt spotlight in the guy's eyes when he charged.

The homeless guy was an obvious threat ("RIGHT NOW I HAVE THE RIGHT TO KILL YOU") equipped with a knife, and they did try to take him down with what looks like a (badly placed) stun grenade...but he wasn't charging. He was turning to flee. Pretty sure the cops panicked and that's why they began opening fire. I've seen kids react with the same eager panic when we're out walking through the woods with .22s and they see movement in the bush and they immediately start firing at it-a serious no no that I've given them shit for. These officers can't maintain their cool; they all should have had been equipped with some LTL equipment, instead of assault rifles.

I cringed when the camera helm officer started opening fire as well-it was unnecessary, he was twitch firing and his fellow officer was almost in his direct line of fire. I'm willing to bet a bullet passed within one foot of the dog handler. Helmet cam and the other shooter are tragedies waiting to happen, both to civilians and their fellow officers; their boss needs to send them back to the Police Academy ASAP.

[TheSlayer]

We have had the same type of problems here. Canada is no different. We had a disturbing incident last year where a distraught 18 year old trapped alone in a streetcar with a knife was shot by the cops. He was surrounded by cops with guns and there was nobody else in the streetcar (so clearly he was not in a position to hurt anybody but himself).

I remember reading that the problem now is that cops in the US and Canada are not taught to deescalate situations. They are taught to "shoot to kill" if they feel even remotely threatened. Now in cities or in areas with lots of crime or gang activity that might make sense but overall I think that's a stupid policy.

For my liking there have been far too many incidents in the last few years with cops killing old people/hobos/people in distress (mentally ill) without guns or other dangerous weapons to death.

[porscheguy]

1. Cops are not obligated to put a stop to "criminal" behavior.
2. Cops routinely escalate situations which result in violent interactions.
3. If the guy is a schizophrenic obeying simple orders can be difficult if not impossible depending on what the voices in his head are telling him to do.

The cops arrived with overwhelming force in terms of sheer manpower. They act as though they were compelled to engage the victim because they were in danger. If they're in danger, why not step back from the situation to reduce their personal risk? Why can't they just wait him out.

It's like those cops in CA who beat the homeless man to death. Again, it was a guy who had a mental disorder. They most likely beat him death for his protection. Why not handcuff the crazy to the bumper of a police cruiser and let him flail about until he wears himself out?

For those who are wondering, most police departments will hire a shell shocked jarhead with an IQ of 90-100(on a good day) before they'll hire a college grad with a degree in criminal justice. Your police departments want violent pieces of shit on the payroll.

[soup]

What about tranquilizer darts?

Now these cops have brought shame and an anger to their force.

And, these guys are trained professionals. Imagine how fucked our country would be if everyone had guns. Imagine how many bad split second decisions would result in unnecessary deaths.

[MHaes]

^^^^

[kali]

The homeless guy completely deserved what he got. If you are dumb enough to stand against cops while having a knife in your hand you will get shot. For those who dont know a knife is a fucken dangerous weapon if someone knows how to use it. Cops dont play games when their lives are in danger or use a bean bags, tazer, etc.
If you come at me with a knife in an aggressive manner, even if you are 20 feet away, I will shoot you.

Here is an example:

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/vi...TL1t11XJKD

[porscheguy]

(04-01-2014 08:24 PM)kali Wrote:  

The homeless guy completely deserved what he got. If you are dumb enough to stand against cops while having a knife in your hand you will get shot. For those who dont know a knife is a fucken dangerous weapon if someone knows how to use it. Cops dont play games when their lives are in danger or use a bean bags, tazer, etc.
If you come at me with a knife in an aggressive manner, even if you are 20 feet away, I will shoot you.

Here is an example:

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/vi...TL1t11XJKD

How were their lives in danger? The guy had his back turned when the cops shot him.

[CaptainChardonnay]

The video Kali posted is exactly what I'm talking about, note how many times the guy got shot before he was taken down.

Most cops in developed countries now a days wear stab proof vests while on duty. The threat is real.

[MHaes]

^No. The threat is not real. Posting anecdotal videos and making hyperbolic statements do not accurately represent the level of danger present in a policeman's day to day duties. Especially when that video is from a 3rd world, poor country. Present some sources to us, and then we can have a legitimate discussion.

[Roosh]

The militarization of police seems like a way around Posse Comitatus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act