[soup]

It seems like the pot calling the kettle black.

[NY Digital]

How are the 30 million + illegals that are only skilled enough to find someone to sneak them across a border contributing to our talent economy?

How are the spawn of those low skilled workers going to contribute to our economy.

I personally know an intelligent, college educated Czech that works construction because it's hard for him to get citizenship.

[WestCoast]

^ you are mixing two concepts.

USA plays for keeps with regard to high end talent you need serious money and resources. Eg my buddy example.

The second point you are making is something you can't control right? If your country is full on beast mode in terms of opportunity naturally people are going to sneak in. You can try to keep it down to x% but it will never go to zero. Go to Western Europe and Africans are treated the same way we treat Mexicans (yes simplistic example) but basically they know their life will be better in west Europe than in Africa so they try to sneak in. Any where that has opportunity will have this issue, again a small price to pay for being the best.

A somewhat related concept is trying to stop all illegal drug trade... No matter what people are going to find ways to ship those drugs.

So the two issues are different. The fact we have people trying to break in with all their might and ditching their family ties for the chance tells you just how strong the USA is

[TigerMandingo]

^ No one is arguing against bringing in top talent. I think people are more concerned w unchecked immigration and the fact that millions of barely literate Central Americans are driving down working wages in certain parts of the US. Not everyone can "kill it". Many people enjoy blue collar/physical work and still want to provide for their families.

[worldwidetraveler]

(02-06-2014 02:12 PM)darklightdispatch Wrote:  

Take any U.S. city that was 90% white (and had been for generations) 30 years ago and is now 70+% Mexican and other non-assimilated first-gen immigrants. There are plenty that fit this description in California...Anaheim's one I think. It's a totally different place now, obviously. This doesn't mean it's worse. Maybe it's better. Regardless, it certainly isn't the same city.

Honestly, though, I have no personal examples of loss of culture. Like a lot of white American kids, I grew up without any perceived culture beyond what was on TV. My family moved around a lot, sometimes to mostly white places, sometimes to places where there were almost no other white kids. I never gave it much thought growing up. So, in my actual day-to-day experience, immigration hasn't had any negative consequences that I'm aware of.

Demographics in cities change all the time. Where I am from, the main employer was auto manufacturers. They ended up closing the plants and the cities went to shit. That changed the city demographics which had nothing to do with immigration.

What you are describing isn't necessarily a loss of culture but a demographic shift.

Being that we are an immigrant nation, we have always had enclaves of people with similar backgrounds and cultures.

[WestCoast]

Unfortunately wages for low skilled work will continue to be pushed down because if you illegally immigrate that is your skillset.

Naturally as an employer you'll choose the hardest working most productive one.

That's a negative to being at the top in terms of low end work but again that's like trying to lock down illegal drugs. Ain't happening.

Besides, lots of blue collar work is still profitable dock workers etc. The work sucks but it is there

I like to live in what can be controlled and reality. Putting up a 70 foot electric fence is not gonna do shit. Keep illegal low end work within reason but they are gonna come no matter what.

[soup]

What would happen if right now, all the illegal immigrants were simultaneously teleported out of the country? Teledeportation?

[TigerMandingo]

(02-06-2014 03:12 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

Unfortunately wages for low skilled work will continue to be pushed down because if you illegally immigrate that is your skillset.

Naturally as an employer you'll choose the hardest working most productive one.

That's a negative to being at the top in terms of low end work but again that's like trying lock down illegal drugs. Ain't happening.

Besides, lots of blue collar work is still profitable dock workers etc. The work sucks but it is there

Yea, fuck those blue-collar hicks! Bring in the hardworking Mexicans. Lol, come on. Are these people just supposed to die out according to you?

[worldwidetraveler]

(02-06-2014 03:17 PM)Cunnilinguist Wrote:  

(02-06-2014 03:12 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

Unfortunately wages for low skilled work will continue to be pushed down because if you illegally immigrate that is your skillset.

Naturally as an employer you'll choose the hardest working most productive one.

That's a negative to being at the top in terms of low end work but again that's like trying lock down illegal drugs. Ain't happening.

Besides, lots of blue collar work is still profitable dock workers etc. The work sucks but it is there

Yea, fuck those blue-collar hicks! Bring in the hardworking Mexicans. Lol, come on. Are these people just supposed to die out according to you?

It almost sounds like you're saying blue collar hicks don't work as hard.

[WestCoast]

Yes the Mexicans/Africans or wahtever should. If they are working harder than you and are better than you they should take your job.

That said no I think it sucks they aren't citizens and are taking it but it is a hazard of competition.

If your skillset was really better than them they would never hire them right?

This is exactly why anyone who asks me for advice on how to succeed the answer is always to develop expertise in a niche. Anyone can dig a ditch or pick apples. Not everyone can repair high end watches.

Note again, I am not saying it is "right" I am saying it is what will always happen. If their life sucks they are going to come and try to do shit jobs for low wages they have no other choice right? I would do the same.

You are definitely insane if you think you can stop illegal immigration. Right? Anyone would agree with that, so instead of trying to complain or attack them go do something else with your time.

I will highlight for the 5th time it is not "cool" or "right" but that's gonna happen if your country is that wealthy.

[Saga]

(02-06-2014 03:12 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

Naturally as an employer you'll choose the hardest working most productive one.

It's because of wage expectations, not as much productivity. Wages drop because one worker is supporting a family in Mexico instead of down the street. That's why labor laws and workplace standards are in place, to ensure equitable exchange, but the problem is that employers can so easily get away with ignoring them. It's a status quo that punishes ethics and rewards amorality in the business community.

[darklightdispatch]

(02-06-2014 03:08 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

What you are describing isn't necessarily a loss of culture but a demographic shift.

If a quick and dramatic demographic shift doesn't result in a loss (switch) of culture what possible could?

(02-06-2014 03:08 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

Being that we are an immigrant nation, we have always had enclaves of people with similar backgrounds and cultures.

The situation is quite a bit different now.
Prior to the mid-20th century, assimilation was required and universally encouraged. Now it's pretty much the opposite. In addition, most of the large immigrant groups had much more in common with the majority population, even if they seemed very foreign at the time.

[Apollo]

A simple question is whether or not the average guy feels like he has the power to create a future for himself. When a majority of your society feels like the deck is stacked against them and that their efforts will go unrewarded, they'll either start to hop ship for greener pastures or get pissed off enough to change the current political institutions. As a leader, neither outcome is favorable, considering the amount of (potential and actualized) value that is lost.

My opinion basically comes down to this...Immigration can either uplift a society or crush it depending upon both the ideas and the value of the people you are importing.

Comparable to hiring new workers, before letting them join the ranks, an assessment of value (for your company) and ideas (their ideas for themselves of and relating to the company) should be made. Blanket amnesty for low skilled workers would not be favorable, in my opinion, not just for lack of value assessment, but also for the amount of resentment it would breed in existing employees. Since values and ideas were previously screened for, and now we're just hiring anyone, the change in strategy may entirely jeopardize our mission. The "mission" is what we are promoting/saving and before we implement any strategy to achieve those ends, it's probably important that we hash out what that mission is. (A question often gone unresolved in both this and the Saving America thread)

[TigerMandingo]

^ I understood your point. Honestly, at the end of the day, we have no control over immigration policy anyway. So our opinions are irrelevant in this matter. I do think the current immigration trends are negative overall, but in the end, I can only worry about the shit I can control.

[WestCoast]

I think people are missing the point or I suck at writing.

I am not saying it is okay to just let these people in.

What I am saying is it is gonna happen. I mean no way you're controlling a population of 330M and our massive country with no issues.

If the skills you have are really that valuable then there is no way you could ever lose your job to such an illegal immigrant correct? So go become of value above that of an immigrant. Make your skills valuable beyond a random pair of hands. That's how this becomes a non-issue for anyone.

-

Cunnilinguist correct. Exactly why bitch about immigration ruining American culture when it's gonna happen anyway. The most you can do is encourage people on your line of thought and choose your friends wisely.

I have a very hard time seeing any value in the discussion of things that will never happen.

In fact I hate all discussion of things that are beyond my control ha. I mean that's literally a waste of time. My brain should be used for other things not ruminating.

[darklightdispatch]

(02-06-2014 03:22 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

You are definitely insane if you think you can stop illegal immigration. Right? Anyone would agree with that, so instead of trying to complain or attack them go do something else with your time.

Illegal immigration was a small trickle before the Immigration Act of 1965. Then it immediately exploded. I'm not really sure how that whole thing worked honesty, but it suggests that whatever the U.S. was doing prior to 1965 was effective at stopping mass illegal immigration. Or, more accurately, whatever "our" policies changed to back then strongly encouraged replacement-level migration.

[Saga]

(02-06-2014 03:31 PM)WestCoast Wrote:  

What I am saying is it is gonna happen. I mean no way you're controlling a population of 330M and our massive country with no issues.

I agree it's going to happen and I don't blame the immigrants for wanting a better life...but there needs to be an effort to make sure businesses are paying workers a legal wage. That's something that we can realistically control.

Quote:

If the skills you have are really that valuable then there is no way you could ever lose your job to such an illegal immigrant correct? So go become of value above that of an immigrant. Make your skills valuable beyond a random pair of hands. That's how this becomes a non-issue for anyone.

True, people should always be trying to make themselves more valuable, but I'd phrase the situation differently: it's not about being valuable, it's about being valuable for a certain price. Nowadays you can outsource engineering work to India where there's a huge amount of engineers willing to work for a pittance. American engineers not only have to charge more for their services because food, housing and everything else costs more in the US, they have to pay for a much more expensive education. They're valuable beyond a random pair of hands, but that isn't enough to save them from the race to the bottom.

[NY Digital]

A lot of stuff here we can't do anything to change. We still talk about it though.

And sometimes, something can be done.

[worldwidetraveler]

(02-06-2014 03:28 PM)darklightdispatch Wrote:  

(02-06-2014 03:08 PM)worldwidetraveler Wrote:  

What you are describing isn't necessarily a loss of culture but a demographic shift.

If a quick and dramatic demographic shift doesn't result in a loss (switch) of culture what possible could?

You would have to show me the people who originally lived in that city lost their culture. That is what we are talking about, the lost of culture because of mass immigration. I don't know anything about the city you mentioned so I wouldn't know why the demographics shifted.

The city itself has changed, the demographics changed but, that doesn't mean anyone lost their culture. The people who originally lived there just moved somewhere else.

I grew up roughly two hours away from one of the biggest arab communities in America. It hasn't affected the way I live or my "culture".

I have yet to see an example of culture being lost. I mean taken away and it's gone forever.

Quote:

The situation is quite a bit different now.
Prior to the mid-20th century, assimilation was required and universally encouraged. Now it's pretty much the opposite. In addition, most of the large immigrant groups had much more in common with the majority population, even if they seemed very foreign at the time.

If we are talking legal immigration, I believe most make an effort to assimilate into our society. That doesn't mean they will abandon their own culture completely which they shouldn't.

[WestCoast]

@saga eh I disagree. When your value is your opinion no one can touch you by simply jumping across a border. If you've hired web designers that are non-us based you know they are not of great quality compared to your average google employee. You're also down playing the ability to problem solve.

If you are really legit it's not a race to the bottom it is a race to the top.

Finally you're discounting the value of trust in American society and communication. The big issue for other countries is they can't even get funding because no one wants their cash there. In the USA you can pretty much snap your fingers if you have proof of income. Try that in SA/EE no chance.

[Suits]

[Apollo]

From 1:56 to 3:01, he makes that exact argument regarding the skill set of workers who cry protectionism.

While hiring such a worker for pennies on the dollar would improve profits for the quarter, a question regarding basic sustainability arises. Not only are your underlings completely divested from the company's vision (if they can't even speak English), you've now just effectively pissed off your equally unskilled neighbor. If our goal is power and sustainability, we have just succeeded in creating waves that jeopardize our entire groups upward mobility by creating frictions among upper management and underlings that may now include the creation of unions, minimum Wage increases, pensions, etc.

[WestCoast]

^ come on lol. That's like saying I am driving short term profits by hiring a cheap accountant who does the exact same checks as the next guy.

Again if your skills are legit you're going to command a premium.

High end skills always win. Are you "just an accountant" who checks numbers? Or are you a baller ass one who can save the company money.

If you're in group 1 you're fucked. If you're in group two... Get ready to make it rain that green boy.

I could care less if my secretary wants to stay for a week or 10 years. I can just hire another one that can reserve dinner and shit. Let's be real here. If the secretary can't reserve dinner well fuck that lol. In addition if the same secretary will leave to the next highest bidder I say go for it. Why pay up for a skill that isn't even a skill! I am not saying to make them starve but there is no reason to give them amazing wages just give them market rate $50K a year. I don't see how this is bad. We shouldn't pay more for the same shit.

America rewards people with elite skillsets. And punishes those that refuse to develop and want to "get by".

[worldwidetraveler]

(02-06-2014 03:38 PM)Saga Wrote:  

True, people should always be trying to make themselves more valuable, but I'd phrase the situation differently: it's not about being valuable, it's about being valuable for a certain price. Nowadays you can outsource engineering work to India where there's a huge amount of engineers willing to work for a pittance. American engineers not only have to charge more for their services because food, housing and everything else costs more in the US, they have to pay for a much more expensive education. They're valuable beyond a random pair of hands, but that isn't enough to save them from the race to the bottom.

When I was contracting, I could throw out a resume and get 5 calls within the day for a year long contract making around 80 to 100 an hour.

That changed right after the Dot Com bubble burst. My contracts weren't even in those types of industries but every company got scared and the big thing was outsourcing to India.

The jobs dried up so I just reinvented myself.

After a couple of years, I started getting emails for more contracts probably from old resumes. I had my own stuff going and laughed them off. Apparently, a lot of the jobs being outsourced ended up coming back to America.

The work, in America, was much better quality. I worked with plenty of Indians on other contracts and you really need to change your expectations. At least judging from the guys I had to supervise.

That is life. Foundries close up, markets shift, jobs outsource... nothing is certain and those that think a job is secure is living in a dream world.

Like I said, a lot of the IT jobs came back to the US because the work was better and it actually cost them less in the long run.

[WestCoast]

^ yep. Exact same experience with an outsource at an old firm of mine.

I feel that people scared of outsourcing have never hired outsourced "talent" if you're good... Man people will knock down your doors. Te best feeling is when you know you don't even have to carry a résumé anymore. You're just walking product, that's what you want to be.

So hard to find the best of the best. Unless you're here where the best reside.

People don't seem to understand that inequality exists becuase the flows go to the best. That's how life is in capitalism. So don't be average don't be average don't be average! You'll destroy your future.